OU ADV OU Metagame Discussion

[YubelVT]

Ninjask is not a good Pokémon without Baton Pass, of course, you cutted his balls. What a surprise, he Is a Baton Passer and is good at It, you castrate him and It sucks. Is like saying, Tauros Is not such good without a Choice Band.

Once again, you can ban cheap dedicate strategy that are easygoing, but the meta actually has way to counter a fucking Ninjask swords passer + Speed boost. Perish song, WWind, Roar, Extreme Speed, Taunt, Torment, Trick, RLScreens, Destiny Bond, Fury swipes, Rock blast, Arcanine, use your fantasy, if It was that much broken It would have been banned historically, like Wobbuffet has Always be.


Also, you are contraddicting yourself at every post. You talk about match up cheesy but Is that something that Ninjask can do outsider Baton Passing? No, so you actually KNOW, as soon as you see Ninjask, what Is his job. And you also said that, so you know how to counter It in order to prevent statboost Passing.

Everyone played the game for 20 years and nobody ever banned anything in RSE, in 2024 people get such pussies that cries for Just 2 Baton passers cheesing their standard 6 TOP OU Spikes teams with no answers to a Surprise factor

It Is so clear you are a new gen player of this meta

ok this is how I know that you either don't know what you are talking about or are trolling. There have been restrictions on Baton Pass in relations to Smeargle for over a decade. Ingrain STILL cannot be used on Smeargle in combination with Baton Pass because that's uncompetitive. I think these restrictions happened even before anything happened to BP in future gens, which just proves my point further.

Baton Pass has been known to be a broken strategy for a long time, but because it was historically used in healthy ways (i.e. passing subs, being the equivalent of u-turn, and celebi doing celebi things) it has been understandably been treated with a gentler hand than in future generations, and I like that. The problem with Baton Pass as it stands right now IS Ninjask. With every other speed passer you need to lose tempo to gain that speed boost, leaving you open to getting phazed or just outright killed or otherwise put in a bad position.

Even back in the day Baton Pass was known to be powerful, if inconsistent. With modern understanding, Baton Pass is much more consistent than was believed, to the point where it got these restrictions for being a matchup fish playstyle.

 

[Sharingan]

ok this is how I know that you either don't know what you are talking about or are trolling. There have been restrictions on Baton Pass in relations to Smeargle for over a decade. Ingrain STILL cannot be used on Smeargle in combination with Baton Pass because that's uncompetitive. I think these restrictions happened even before anything happened to BP in future gens, which just proves my point further.

Pretty useless details which nobody cares and proofs nothing.
What point? Your point Is, Ninjask Is broken with no counterplay even in a non Baton pass archetype, so It Is legit a ban, because you lose tempo If you dont click AGILITY WITH MY LOVED ZAPDOS And blablabla, instead It Is not. I listed counters, but you ignore. Ok

My point Is, limit Baton Pass as much as you want, but Is ridiculus to ban Ninjask with Baton Pass and Swords dance Just for Speed boost. There Is counterplay for him and he Just do a fucking only one thing. Same as agility pass + swords dance celebi teams, there Is a lot of counterplay on that, but of course you ignore my posts so pointless keep going.

Since beginning of discussion you did not prove the contrary in any single point i said. Even your team vs Sdef Skarmory doesnt prove he isnt a centralizing Pokemon, you told me how to counter It, like you assume i dont know KEKW, but nobody of you proved that Gengar, Sdef Skarmory, Dugtrio are super centralizing Pokemons for some team archetypes, that force players to dedicate specific moves and slots, with the SAME STANDARD ANSWERS, just to do not get wrecked from them. Cheesy factor Is always been part of ADV, and Pokemon in general. You should not lose istantly and i agree, but counterplay exist, once again i agree to limit cheap and no counterplay strategies, but not to Destroy completely cheesy factors since it always have been part of the game.

 

[YubelVT]

Pretty useless details which nobody cares and proofs nothing.
What point? Your point Is, Ninjask Is broken with no counterplay even in a non Baton pass archetype, so It Is legit a ban, because you lose tempo If you dont click AGILITY WITH MY LOVED ZAPDOS And blablabla, instead It Is not. I listed counters, but you ignore. Ok

My point Is, limit Baton Pass as much as you want, but Is ridiculus to ban Ninjask with Baton Pass and Swords dance Just for Speed boost. There Is counterplay for him and he Just do a fucking only one thing. Same as agility pass + swords dance celebi teams, there Is a lot of counterplay on that, but of course you ignore my posts so pointless keep going.

Since beginning of discussion you did not prove the contrary in any single point i said. Even your team vs Sdef Skarmory doesnt prove he isnt a centralizing Pokemon, you told me how to counter It, like you assume i dont know KEKW, but nobody of you proved that Gengar, Sdef Skarmory, Dugtrio are super centralizing Pokemons for some team archetypes, that force players to dedicate specific moves and slots, with the SAME STANDARD ANSWERS, just to do not get wrecked from them. Cheesy factor Is always been part of ADV, and Pokemon in general. You should not lose istantly and i agree, but counterplay exist, once again i agree to limit cheap and no counterplay strategies, but not to Destroy completely cheesy factors since it always have been part of the game.

I'm done with this because you don't actually understand what I am saying. I did not say that SpDef Skarmory isn't centralizing, I said that you are way overblowing how centralizing it is. How old are you, out of curiosity.

I'm also not ignoring your points, I'm saying that they're stupid and you don't know what you're talking about. Or do you want sand veil back?

 

[mr.pinklives]

le

Hey there, ADV community. I've been lurking around this thread for a while now, and I wanted to discuss a specific group of Pokémon that's been on my mind lately:



These five are what I've started to call the "Big Five Leads" of ADV OU (name pending), in no particular order. Whether you're stuck playing low ladder like me, medium, high, or top of the ladder, chances are that you're familiar with these five Pokémon. Since it's almost May anyways, I won't post usage rates here just yet (I plan on coming back to this post once the April 2024 usage rates are published), but for now, I would be willing to bet that at least half of all ADV OU teams run one of these five Pokémon in the lead slot, and that percentage could be even higher.

This is not to say that these are the only viable leads in the tier, of course, but any other lead matchup you'll come across was likely chosen with at least one of these five Pokémon in mind. As a more casual player who wishes to improve at the game, I believe it's worth it for newer players and even returning veterans to have an understanding of the dynamic between these lead options, why they are so viable, and how they match up against themselves and other popular lead options. The first thing that caught my attention with these five Pokémon was that there's no de facto best or worst of the five. Instead there's this really cool rock-paper-scissors kind of situation where the best available options are still noticeably more viable than most other choices, but they help keep each other from getting out of hand, not too different from the famous Pikachu/Kirby/Captain Falcon triangle in competitive Smash 64.

You would think based off of typings, base stats, and Abilities that some leads should consistently win against other leads, but over time, ADV OU has developed into a diverse, colorful metagame where even these Pokémon can tweak their movesets, Abilities, and EV spreads to better matchup against other leads. What's more, each of these Pokémon does a great job at advertising part of ADV OU to newer players, and it's their flexibility in use in their roles that allows these five Pokémon to be the defining metagame forces that they are. Lead Zapdos, for example, looks like it has a pretty good matchup spread into the rest of this list as a fast, Electric-Type special attacker, but even without taking the Lead Tyranitar matchup into account, it can't just throw out Thunderbolts and Hidden Powers left and right without having to account for any anti-Zapdos tech the opponent might have, to say nothing of the possibility of your opponent having a Blissey or another special wall in the back. On the other side of the spectrum, Lead Salamence feels like it should have a poor matchup spread against the rest of this list, but it has the stats, Ability and movepool to contribute to lead matchups you would expect Salamence to lose more often than not.

I think it speaks to the diversity and viability of ADV OU's lead metagame that after a long time of trying to come up with something that has a strong matchup into all five of Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross, I simply couldn't. The closest I could come up with was this Gengar set I crafted, but even this feels a bit gimmicky:



Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt

176+ Speed EVs is a very well-known benchmark to allow Gengar to outspeed 252+ Speed base 100 Pokémon, and the attacking EVs were set up to guarantee a 2HKO on Zapdos after Leftovers and an OHKO on standard Lead Salamence spreads both with Ice Punch, as well as a 3HKO on uninvested Metagross leads with Thunderbolt. Substitute in the lead slot was an idea I had to try and fend off Zapdos's Thunder Wave as well as scout for potential Choice Band locks and to try and best aid Focus Punch, which at 116 Attack EVs still does enough damage from full to place Lead Tyranitar into KO range of Ice Punch or Thunderbolt after Leftovers, while also being just enough to hit Blissey for a 2HKO after Leftovers if Spikes and Sand are both up and Gengar hasn't been Intimidated or burned. That all sounds good in theory, but very rarely, if ever, does Focus Punch do as much as I want it to do, in the lead slot anyway, and on top of the Blissey calculation being extremely specific anyway, it turns out that Tyranitar just straight up beats you in the lead matchup if it's the Pursuit/Crunch set before you get any ideas of Focus Punching it in the face. As an extra bit of annoyance, you can even lose against Lead Zapdos even with Substitute if Ice Punch doesn't crit and Thunderbolt hits its 10% paralysis roll, or if the Zapdos is able to successfully SpeedPass into something that matches up well into you because of just how frail you are and how much you rely on Substitute to take any damage at all.

lead blaziken is pretty good against all of these right?
fire blast for skarm and meta
brick break or uppercut for ttar
hp ice for mence
toxic for obv pert switch in lmao
also blaze boosted fire blast (after eating tbolt from zap) ohkos spdef zap
ik blaziken gets memed on, but i think its underapreciated lmao
respek the chicken

 

[Huge Zorse]

When I think of mons that, 2 years from now or so, could be way further up in the VR rankings, Blaziken is at the top of my list. It's so good into the Big 5--on PAPER--that it feels untapped. That said, it's trash into a lot of MUs, and high ladder players can maneuver around it even with a disadvantageous lead and steal momentum. But it's something I'm experimenting with, since i feel like it's got potential.

le

lead blaziken is pretty good against all of these right?
fire blast for skarm and meta
brick break or uppercut for ttar
hp ice for mence
toxic for obv pert switch in lmao
also blaze boosted fire blast (after eating tbolt from zap) ohkos spdef zap
ik blaziken gets memed on, but i think its underapreciated lmao
respek the chicken

also i think it has to have hp grass, swampert is too good

 

[Kaleb1233]

Hey there, ADV community. I've been lurking around this thread for a while now, and I wanted to discuss a specific group of Pokémon that's been on my mind lately:



These five are what I've started to call the "Big Five Leads" of ADV OU (name pending), in no particular order. Whether you're stuck playing low ladder like me, medium, high, or top of the ladder, chances are that you're familiar with these five Pokémon. Since it's almost May anyways, I won't post usage rates here just yet (I plan on coming back to this post once the April 2024 usage rates are published), but for now, I would be willing to bet that at least half of all ADV OU teams run one of these five Pokémon in the lead slot, and that percentage could be even higher.

This is not to say that these are the only viable leads in the tier, of course, but any other lead matchup you'll come across was likely chosen with at least one of these five Pokémon in mind. As a more casual player who wishes to improve at the game, I believe it's worth it for newer players and even returning veterans to have an understanding of the dynamic between these lead options, why they are so viable, and how they match up against themselves and other popular lead options. The first thing that caught my attention with these five Pokémon was that there's no de facto best or worst of the five. Instead there's this really cool rock-paper-scissors kind of situation where the best available options are still noticeably more viable than most other choices, but they help keep each other from getting out of hand, not too different from the famous Pikachu/Kirby/Captain Falcon triangle in competitive Smash 64.

You would think based off of typings, base stats, and Abilities that some leads should consistently win against other leads, but over time, ADV OU has developed into a diverse, colorful metagame where even these Pokémon can tweak their movesets, Abilities, and EV spreads to better matchup against other leads. What's more, each of these Pokémon does a great job at advertising part of ADV OU to newer players, and it's their flexibility in use in their roles that allows these five Pokémon to be the defining metagame forces that they are. Lead Zapdos, for example, looks like it has a pretty good matchup spread into the rest of this list as a fast, Electric-Type special attacker, but even without taking the Lead Tyranitar matchup into account, it can't just throw out Thunderbolts and Hidden Powers left and right without having to account for any anti-Zapdos tech the opponent might have, to say nothing of the possibility of your opponent having a Blissey or another special wall in the back. On the other side of the spectrum, Lead Salamence feels like it should have a poor matchup spread against the rest of this list, but it has the stats, Ability and movepool to contribute to lead matchups you would expect Salamence to lose more often than not.

I think it speaks to the diversity and viability of ADV OU's lead metagame that after a long time of trying to come up with something that has a strong matchup into all five of Zapdos, Skarmory, Tyranitar, Salamence, and Metagross, I simply couldn't. The closest I could come up with was this Gengar set I crafted, but even this feels a bit gimmicky:



Gengar @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 116 Atk / 216 SpA / 176 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Substitute
- Focus Punch
- Ice Punch
- Thunderbolt

176+ Speed EVs is a very well-known benchmark to allow Gengar to outspeed 252+ Speed base 100 Pokémon, and the attacking EVs were set up to guarantee a 2HKO on Zapdos after Leftovers and an OHKO on standard Lead Salamence spreads both with Ice Punch, as well as a 3HKO on uninvested Metagross leads with Thunderbolt. Substitute in the lead slot was an idea I had to try and fend off Zapdos's Thunder Wave as well as scout for potential Choice Band locks and to try and best aid Focus Punch, which at 116 Attack EVs still does enough damage from full to place Lead Tyranitar into KO range of Ice Punch or Thunderbolt after Leftovers, while also being just enough to hit Blissey for a 2HKO after Leftovers if Spikes and Sand are both up and Gengar hasn't been Intimidated or burned. That all sounds good in theory, but very rarely, if ever, does Focus Punch do as much as I want it to do, in the lead slot anyway, and on top of the Blissey calculation being extremely specific anyway, it turns out that Tyranitar just straight up beats you in the lead matchup if it's the Pursuit/Crunch set before you get any ideas of Focus Punching it in the face. As an extra bit of annoyance, you can even lose against Lead Zapdos even with Substitute if Ice Punch doesn't crit and Thunderbolt hits its 10% paralysis roll, or if the Zapdos is able to successfully SpeedPass into something that matches up well into you because of just how frail you are and how much you rely on Substitute to take any damage at all.

There being 5 main leads is definitely a good observation, these leads make up 56% of all the leads in gen 3 by usage. In fact, they are the only leads the you are more likely to see than not at least once every 20 games (which is the tradition ou cut off in later gens), so in a way, they are the ou leads, at least on ladder. That being said, older gens like ADV differ a lot from more recent ones in that those 5 pokemon represent a lot more than just 5 sets. A mixed mence lead has a much different matchup spread than a choice band set does. TTar and Gross also run many different sets as leads. So even with only 5 common lead pokemon, there is still a ton of diversity. Ttar alone can run BKC tar, Mixed, Pursuit, DD, and banded - 5 sets from just one pokemon, and all of them are definitely viable. Thus, its not really realistic to expect there to be a pokemon or set capable of countering 10+ other sets.

That being said, I do think there are two categories of leads that match up well into these 5:

1) Classic leads teched to win lead matchups:

• Any set with baton pass + substitute (or even protect, but that is generally less useful) can scout out other leads T1. This results in a net positive interaction for Zap no matter what the opp does, since you can scout out their lead's intentions and then BP to another mon, potentially even with a sub if they switch or set up!
• Mixed Tar can 1vs1 (nearly) every lead. The only leads it loses to outright are CB mence and gross, but it can nearly trade with metas if your team wants that.
• Offcune/subcune both do very well vs everything but Zap. Also, I think most experienced ADV players would consider Suicune a standard lead alongside the other 5. Subcune in particular is a very potent lead on offense, because without sand being set up T1 it can actually 1vs1 a lot of blisseys with a sub up on the switch. It can also get ice beam chip on celebi and zap, two of the other common answers.
• CB mence actually wins vs all the standard leads except suicunes, and CB gross. The latter is more of a toss up depending on EVs and damage roll RNG.
• Obviously you'll notice that CB meta is another great lead that can beat anything. Honestly I'd guess that CB gross is the most popular lead set overall in ADV. But it can be rough for him sometimes, because even though he can KO all the other leads, good players are expecting this. They will switch out, often locking you into subpar moves like rock slide and EQ which takes away your momentum. CB mence is a little better at dealing with this because it at least has intimidate which carries over with baton pass, among other things. Its also much less expected.

I like all of these sets (except CB meta, which I do like but does not apply to what I am about to say) because they all do something no matter what. Tar sets up sand, mence intimidates and hits something very hard, Zap has BP to scout and maintain momentum, and Cune can set up a sub to scout or chip something T2. BP Zap in particular has my vote as the most consistent lead in ADV, at least for offense.

2) Anti-meta leads:

• Fighting types like , and especially . All 3 of these mons are speedy and can run coverage for any of the standard leads, but they will always struggle against at least 1 one them depending on the set, usually Mence sets because of intimidate. But they can also make insane progress vs most of the standard leads. So kind of coin flippy, but more times than not in your favor. You can also see that medicham and hari are the 7th and 8th most common leads.
• Fat counter leads like and . I've never used these leads myself but they can cheese their way to winning against all the standards + can explode.
• Sleep leads like and especially . Now these are coin flippy leads. They all lose to Mence (except gar, who has other problems) and lum berries and even potentially bad sleep luck. I don't like the first two since they are complete duds in those matchups but smeargle suicide lead is very nice, it will always get a spikes up (except vs CB mence!) if properly EV'd against Zap. Similar to , another popular anti lead right now, which is basically a more consistent spiker at the cost of no sleep. Glalie gets a layer of spikes vs everything but also gets OHKO'd afterwards by a lot too. I personally will be taking my chances with Smeargle on HO teams.
• Re , I think you have the right idea with your Gengar set, but hypnosis is going to be generally more useful than sub. A hypnosis + WoW set could be fun and effective vs pretty much everything, but still coin flipping. Also, I think anyone using lead hypno gengar should consider Jynx first, who is more accurate and can be more threatening.
• Finally we have this set from the sample teams which is designed to beat all the standard leads, either by directly KOing with stab hydro or super effective icebeam, or by baton passing a sub and/or salac berry boost. I saved this for last since it is probably the closest thing to a perfect anti lead vs the standard 6. It really only fits on very specific teams though, but still very cool!

Lastly check out this OU lead youtube video if you want even more info! I think they do a great job breaking it down and it was the most helpful resources to me when I started.

 

[Huge Zorse]

At what point do we start discussing whether Swampert has a place in S rank? Its usage in the current ADVPL is at around 66%--tied with Skarm; and it was at nearly 50% in SPL. That type of usage almost inherently means a mon is S rank across other gens (i.e., Rachi/Lati/Tar in DPP; Lati/Tar in BW; etc.). But beyond pure usage, isn't this arguably the most important glue mon in the tier? And maybe the preeminent answer to offense in the tier? It's so splashable too. I'd argue this thing is better than Metagross ATM. Curious what people think--and apologies if this has already been discussed a lot

 

[Hiro']

If I deleted one of your post, this will be your only warning:

• Don't drop one liners, they're pointless and will be deleted
• It's okay to disagree, but I feel like some of you are taking it a little too far when responding to each other, keep it civil

 

[mr.pinklives]

At what point do we start discussing whether Swampert has a place in S rank? Its usage in the current ADVPL is at around 66%--tied with Skarm; and it was at nearly 50% in SPL. That type of usage almost inherently means a mon is S rank across other gens (i.e., Rachi/Lati/Tar in DPP; Lati/Tar in BW; etc.). But beyond pure usage, isn't this arguably the most important glue mon in the tier? And maybe the preeminent answer to offense in the tier? It's so splashable too. I'd argue this thing is better than Metagross ATM. Curious what people think--and apologies if this has already been discussed a lot

I thought pert was already S lmao
isnt S ttar, skarm, and pert?

personally i think HP ice is better than grass because celebi and blaziken work well together anyway
celebi passing into blaziken is pretty nice as well
idk what your elo is, but ive never gone past 1700 lol (im a low ladder soldier)
so im not saying hp grass is bad or anything, im just saying if im running celebi anyway hp grass seems unnecessary

 

[bdt2002]

I thought pert was already S lmao
isnt S ttar, skarm, and pert?

personally i think HP ice is better than grass because celebi and blaziken work well together anyway
celebi passing into blaziken is pretty nice as well
idk what your elo is, but ive never gone past 1700 lol (im a low ladder soldier)
so im not saying hp grass is bad or anything, im just saying if im running celebi anyway hp grass seems unnecessary

I've been sleeping on Swampert for a very long time, initially having been unimpressed by its low Speed, Spikes vulnerability, and natural issues with Grass-Types. The idea that special attackers could choose to eliminate Swampert as a reliable check by investing in HP Grass made it less appealing than the three Pokémon I have ranked above Swampert on my own viability rankings, to say nothing of many Celebi sets not even needing the move to succeed in the head-to-head matchup so they can run another Hidden Power type (vulnerable to Leech Seed, also Giga Drain exists). I also didn't like the idea that, as a Water/Ground-Type, it would theoretically not be as effective against other bulky Waters that might be ranked elsewhere within the metagame. For all of this typing's strengths, in a similar manner to the Zapdos Vs. Raikou debate of GSC OU, the lack of, in this case, a Water resistance is noticeable at times.

There were two factors that changed my mind on Swampert. For starters, let's look at some more Pokémon:

--------

It's pretty well known by this point that Electric-Type attackers would love to be able to run HP Ice to (offensively) check Pokémon like Flygon as an example, but in doing so they miss out on the crucial damage on Swampert. Hidden Power opportunity cost absolutely isn't unique to ADV, but while the omnipresence of HP Grass as a coverage option in the absence of other reliable Grass-Type coverage (this isn't DPP which added Grass Knot, Leaf Storm, and Energy Ball all in the same generation) feels like it should make Swampert worse, what's actually happening here is that these Pokémon need to run HP Grass coverage in part because Swampert is so good. That is to say, in the Hidden Power opportunity cost metric, the Swampert matchup has more weight than the Flygon example.

That's great and all but what exactly makes Swampert much better than I initially thought, enough to prompt this HP Grass discussion? After all, HP Ice still does neutral damage while being a special attack when this Pokémon is more commonly known for being a physical tank. First of all, HP Grass still hits Flygon for neutral damage too, so the argument that one is strictly better than the other is out. More importantly, Swampert isn't just some passive wall. It has actual offensive utility that rewards ADV players for exploring the intricacies of the metagame. Yes, it can be defensive, with or without Surf- but it can also be OffPert, SubSalac, mixed, or even Choice Band if you're feeling gutsy. Swampert's offensive game is further assisted by its strong natural defensive profile- it's very easy for newer and/or more casual players like me to forget that even offensive Pokémon need to be able to stick around throughout the course of a game. Without some form of sustainability, these offensive threats wouldn't be able to switch in and use their attacks multiple times over the course of a 6v6 Singles game. On top of offering very strong role compression, combining a Sand immunity with Water's natural offensive strengths, offensive Swampert might be the best Pokémon in the tier at providing a backbone for fast-paced teams while still providing offensive momentum, without necessarily taking away from defensive Swampert's role players may be seeking on slower-paced teams alongside Blissey and other prominent walls.

Overall, for Swampert's versatility in usage, its success in high-level tournament play mentioned by other people, and its game-to-game consistency as a result of several good natural traits for the ADV OU metagame in spite of the looming threat of HP Grass coverage often specifically chosen to check it, I don't see how it can be argued that Swampert isn't one of the best, let alone most influential Pokémon in the tier. Its affect on the average ADV OU game at all levels of play feels more in line with the best Pokémon in the tier compared to those ranked just below them on the Viability Rankings thread. It might not have Sand Stream like Tyranitar, Spikes like Skarmory, or the brute strength of Metagross, but sometimes forgoing being flashy is the right decision in favor of reliability. Just ask any successful, experienced Captain Falcon main in Smash- they'll tell you that they sometimes have to forgo what might please the crowd in favor of what works best.