CAP 10 CAP 10 - Main Typing Discussion

[Str0ngbad]

Thanks for sticking with it Rising Dusk. I was saying the same things from the beginning of this thread but I got tired of it. For those of you that missed it please go back up and look at the dual-types that were listed. And try to understand why Steel is not limited any more than the other types. There will be a poll for secondary typing whether we pick Water, Steel, or, anything. Steel pairs well with many types so I don't understand how you can argue that it is all that limited there. Rising Dusk just went over why it is not Bronzong so I won't bother.

The arguments against steel are sounding more and more like someone plugging their ears and screaming "Not steel!" On one hand you have people saying they will be broken beyond belief and then they say that their weaknesses are limiting and insurmountable. If the typing offers this range of possibilities I think it is reasonable to think that the community could find a middle ground.

@ Dominion: I would love to try this backwards as going about it the right way seems impossible but the secondary I'm pulling for would never win the primary poll...

 

[2gig]

I feel like people are forgetting something very important:

This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.

Barring an Arceusesque ability, CAP10's typing will be static. This is very important, as we want CAP10 to be "customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon". This means that we want a typing that will not have much impact on CAP10's ability to switch in on specific threats; rather we want customizable features such as the movepool and ability to have the most impact on what CAP10 can counter. This means we're looking for a type with few resistances and few weaknesses. Also, the weaknesses should be to attack types that are used by few Pokemon, while the few resistances would be, ideally, to attack types used by a large amount of Pokemon, such as ground. Also, immunities should be avoided for type selection.

After thinking about this, to me, the Fighting type makes the most sense. While it doesn't have a resistance to a widely used type of attack, such as ground, it holds some more important resistances. Most importantly, the rock resistance makes it take half damage from stealth rock, which is important, because it will likely be switching in to counter specific Pokemon. Also, the dark resistance cuts pursuit's power in half, which could be a problem if, for example, one specific configuration of CAP10 has been made to counter certain special attackers, and lacks physical defense EVs, which would've allowed Pursuit to take a decent chunk of its health without that resistance.

 

[Wyverii]

Alright this thread is now a complete mess so let me warn some people:

Poll-jumping, regardless of how late on in the discussion it is or how justified you think it is is not allowed. Keep this in mind for the future and those that have poll-jumped before this post isn't going to spared. You know the rules people so don't even bother with "I know this is poll jumping but...".

Also, people who are posting too much should back off. Threadhogging is essentially trying to take over the project. I know some people like to contribute and answer every post but there's points where you should curb your enthusiasm and let other people have a say. Too much of this and you will be infracted. You are all warned.

 

[tennisace]

To add onto Wyverii's warning, a good rule of thumb is to get your point out in one TL;DR post. Then, wait a bit, and let people comment on your post. THEN you can respond to other people a few times. People really shouldn't be posting more than 10 times in a single thread.

 

[Raikaria]

This discussion thread, reading the last 2 pages, is almost nothing but poll jumping, and accusing others of making Zapdos/Brongzong/Machamp 2.0.

Let me remind people, there's no way this CAP will have the ability to counter everything. I don;t care if it's not all at once. If a pokemon can counter anything else, that means it has no counters. If it;s bulky enough to actually switch in, and threaten anything in the game, it's probobly Uber under Defence, or possibly Support, Characteristics.

Short Version:
This cap will have hard counters still, nothing can stop everything, without being broken.

Anyway, of the major arguments remaining, I'm going to sum them up, and give my opinion on each, which, in my veiw, is a decent way of arguing about the typing:

Electric
Pros:
Only 1 weakness
Good STAB, which is more than capable of dealing with several major threats

Cons:
That 1 weakness happens to be Ground
Lack of Resistances, only to Steel, and other Electrics

Opinion?
Electric is a decent base, as, due to lack of weaknesses [And resistances] we can use the secondary typing and ability to make this CAP almost anything still, while some other types may not.

Water
Pros:
Good STAB when it comes to Neutrality. Also comes pre-packed with Ice Beam for the Dragons and Grass types who resist [Water move here]
Decent Resistances. Fire and Ice are common in OU
Their supporters have stayed out of the mess of the last few pages [Not important, but, worth stating]

Cons:
Electric Weakness.
Hits NVE on all dragon types in OU.
Way overused type anyway

Opinion?
Decent type overall, and, like Electric, dosen't pen us in. It's another decent starting base.

Poision
Pros:
Fighting Resist
Immunity to Poison status
Lack of weaknesses

Cons:
Earthquake weakness
HORRIBLE STAB
Lack of powerful and realiable STABS like Surf, Flamethrower, and Earthquake.

Opinion?
Why are people argueing for this? Electric is superior in almost every way. Electric has less weaknesses, and the Electric Resist is probobly about as likly to help as the Fighting Resist. Electric is also a far better STAB.

Fighting
Pros:
Great STAB, best of the 5 main suggestions
Lack of weaknesses to common OU attacks
Decent attacks like Close Combat

Cons:
Lack of useful Resistances
Ghost types switch in with impunity [Unless we have Payback/Crunch]

Opinion:
Might be interesting... but... I keep thinking, what can this thing do, that Machamp wouldn't be able to?

Steel
Pros:
Resistances, lots of them
Immune to Posion

Cons:
3 VERY common weaknesses, Fire, Ground, and Fighting
Bad STAB, along with bad movepool to use said STAB

Opinion:
Personally, I'd stay away from Steel. 12 resists isn;t bad, but, how can you counter stuff when you're weak to the 3 most common attacking types in OU?

If I had to rank the types so far, I'd go:
1: Water/Electric [Tie right now]
2: See above
3: Fighting
4: Steel
5: Poision

 

[Chomper The Sharptooth]

After reading through this thread I would have to put my support behind poison and fighting. It's a tough decision really on which would be the better typing that would probably be justified by secondary typing. Fighting with its resistance to stealth rock allows it to do as a counter is supposed to, and switch in to attacks. My issue with it is the potency of fighting stab, where as poison has the crappiest stab in the game making moveslot more an issue of coverage. Neither is incredibly abundant in the OU metagame however there have been previous CAP's with the fighting typing (2? 3?) and while I still view fighting as a good choice I think the best direction for CAP10 is poison type. Both of these create good synergy with possible secondary types, notably dark for both, though the psychic weak that it covers is relatively 'meh' on account of its low usage.

 

[T-major]

Cons:
Lack of useful Resistances
Ghost types switch in with impunity [Unless we have Payback/Crunch]

Rock Bug and Dark, all are common offensive types, including the widely used Stealth Rock. seems useful to me.

 

[Anachronism]

I disagree with the notion that something that can beat anything with the right set is broken. The most obvious example would be an extreme poke that could somehow only beat exactly 1 thing at a time. Would you call that broken? Now, imagine that this poke can only beat 10-15 things at a time. Is it broken now? The question is really "how many things can it beat at one time?" So, how many pokes do you think this thing should be able to counter at once if we can indeed make it capable of countering anything? Although this question seems unrelated to typing on the surface, I think that it is very important for us to define this before we decide on typing, because choosing a typing is choosing weaknesses, and weaknesses tend to choose counters.