Metagame PU Weekly Discussion - Week 3: Fighting-types

[Anty]

approved by Magnemite
art by me

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PU Weekly Discussion
Basically, every week I will choose a topic for everyone to discuss. The point is to talk about the metagame and how it is evolving.
Rules:

• Stay on topic. A bit of leeway is alright, just as long as its relevant to the conversation.
• This isn't a place to discuss suspects/potential suspects, the NP thread is for that and any post about them here will be deleted.
• No theorymon'ing. The thread is for the current meta, not for one with where x drops from OU. This doesn't mean you cannot talk about the immediate future (e.g. how a new threat may change the metagame).
• Be respectful, don't be rude, etc.
• I will chose fairly general topics so feel free to talk about anything relevant related to it, and you can comment on what others have said.
• Remember this is just a discussion, there is no right/wrong opinions so don't be a afraid to post!

archive

Week 1: Stall

Week 2: Entry Hazards

Week 3: Fighting-types

Week 1: Stall

 

[Grim]

I think stall is a pretty decent playstyle at the moment. Stuff like Audino / Gourgeist-XL / Grumpig / Stunfisk / 2 fillers does wonders against most teams though people are mostly used to it by now and preparing better for it. Personally I've taken a liking lately to SubRoost Articuno and Lum Leafeon to beat these kind of teams while also doing well against other archetypes unlike Pokemon such as Calm Mind Duosion and Clefairy which do great against passive teams but are mediocre against anything else. Unfortunaly stall is quite restricted teambuilding-wise as there still are tons of wallbreakers such as Rotom-F and Monferno in PU that could ruin your day, and you always want Audino because it's the best cleric in the tier and a great blanket check for special attackers. Gourgeist-XL is also very valuable to stall at the moment, forming a great core with Audino while also blocking Rapid Spin and taking on No Guard Machoke quite well, which is the biggest reason why it's used over Tangela unlike before, with being a great Bouffalant counter also being an important factor. These two do a great job at covering a lot of threats and roles you need in a good stall team in just two slots, making them staples in the playstyle at the moment. That said, there still is room for some variation in stall as I've seen Skankovich / Ayo sb make good use of Carbink despite its passiveness and Chinchou has also seen some play in stall, for example. I doubt stall will be on the same level of consistency as standard offense any time soon and will most likely lose popularity once people get used to playing against it again, but until then its a nice way to farm wins against unprepared teams.

 

[DiscoDucky]

I'm curious about Avalugg's role in PU Stall. With its stats and movepool, he seems like a potentially good Bulky spinner, but its typing is horrendous defensively.

 

[MZ]

I've always found it to be a poor choice specifically in a rapid spinning role because as soon as you run a rapid spinner that's basically accepting that a lot of spikestack teams will just have their way with you. To be honest any stall lacking roselia is always troubled by opposing TSpikes, but Avalugg compounds the issue. When I tried to build stall with non-spin avalugg + another remover I just couldn't find a place for it, but it doesn't seem like the worst option.

Stall still has a lot of matchup issues, it's improved greatly because Audino but the fact remains that in a number of matchups it's just going to lose and it can be inconsistent. There are legitimately good games with stall where both players need to play, but in a lot of cases the game can just be over in one direction or another rather quickly which is why I feel it's better for a one-off seasonal game counterteam rather than something you'd want to consistently bring (although tbh anything wins on ladder and that and seasonal are pretty much all of main PU play anyway but I wouldnt, say, bring it for every game of a room tour of competent people and have the expectation that I can win). One mon I've been liking recently though that happens to hurt stall is kind of interesting.
Articuno @ Leftovers
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 248 HP / ?? SpA / ?? SpD (I keep changing the creep vs spdef idk, normally enough for monferno though)
Timid/Calm Nature
- Substitute
- Roost
- Freeze-Dry
- Toxic
The set just loses to Metang, Probopass, and Pawniard, and that sucks. Other than that though it's an incredibly good wall that happens to pressure the shit out of stall (pun intended) by literally just spamming toxic and freeze dry. Your recourses are annoying it with Encore Audino or something or having CM Clefairy because otherwise cuno is a real problem. It's been gaining some attention recently, and while I think the hype is a little high this is a really interesting choice for more balanced teams that can handle removal. Nothing I'd post to creative underrated or slap on most teams, but solid and it's one of those things that can give stall a lot of issues.
e: user tehy wants me to note that switching between audino and something else definitely helps, but you throw in some hazard support and that limited heal bell pp and there are still a lot of ways this pressures stall, aside from being a good mon in general that balance has a hard time killing

 

[Rennyjesus]

Stall is simply "nice" but not good enough to be used on a "totally serious" match IMO... Every single Stall team will have more or less the same pokés (Gourgeist - Clefairy - Audino - Grumpig - Stunfisk - Roselia - Tangela - Articuno - Carbink) and while decent, they are kinda easily pressured by offense staples like Monferno, Floatzel, Machoke and Rotom-F (and you can use Swords Dance, Bulk Up or Specs on those, just because you will not be needing much speed for beating them).

 

[Anty]

Running avalugg as a spinner means you don't have an inherent disadvantage Pursuit Dusknoir + Spikes teams. From what I've been seeing recently hazards can play a huge role in the stall vs offensive/bulky teams, as a key thing to do while playing with offence is to identify the pokemon on your team which can do the most work, then weaken down the opposing checks. Hazards is a crucial part to this as often you will see something like SD Monferno or Leafeon, by weakening stuff like Altaria/Stunfisk and Gourgeist, respectively with smart double switches, and hazards makes this so much more easier (helps that roselia and quilladin have plenty of spiking opportunities). Toxic Spikes provides slightly bulkier teams an easier matchup depending on what hazard user they use (cryo against no spinblocker/pursuit user should be fine though), as Roselia on stall is less easier to fit as Gourgeist is basically a staple.

Stall is simply "nice" but not good enough to be used on a "totally serious" match IMO... Every single Stall team will have more or less the same pokés (Gourgeist - Clefairy - Audino - Grumpig - Stunfisk - Roselia - Tangela - Articuno - Carbink) and while decent, they are kinda easily pressured by offense staples like Monferno, Floatzel, Machoke and Rotom-F (and you can use Swords Dance, Bulk Up or Specs on those, just because you will not be needing much speed for beating them).

Tbh I don't think there is a shortage of Pokemon to run on stall teams, people just pick the easy route and the team end up looking similar to dundies' one. If more teams come out with different types of builds revolving around different Pokemon like Dusclops or Machoke then preparing for stall would be harder than just Leafeon + CB Relicanth, and some of the nicher stallbreakers could start to be considered. Pretty much the only staples on stall teams are Gourgeist + Audino (some semi-stall teams can get away without running Audino), and thats because they can blanket check a lot, while Gourgeist importantly beats Machoke + most Leafeon, and Audino can ofc provide wish support. Running it in tours is a bit risky, though the latest seasonal has shown that people don't always prepare well


Running stallbreaker cores isn't that hard really, with the rise in popularity of stuff like SD Leafeon (especially with Toxic Lumineon/Golem which seem to be everywhere now). You can avoid using completely niche stallbreakers with stuff like Double Dance Kingler (finally a meta where I would potentially use SD + Agility), which just needs a bit of chip on Gourgeist then most standard teams fall if weakened (maybe removal of cryo), Shed Skin Arbok has a lot of potential against non stunfisk teams (fisk isn't too hard to weaken though), and also Murkrow against non-stunfisk teams can get several KOs before killing itself which opens plenty of holes. Pursuit could also be nice, though Krow is the only one to scare out Gourgeist (maybe banette too), though Audino doesn't care too much for it. Has any one experimented with anything else which can rip apart stall? Ik people are hyping Scraggy but Clefairy and Altaria don't have too many issues.

(I may be a bit late updating for week 2 btw)

 

[pancake]

I like stall in this meta, besides um, hating stall in general. Of course, a lot of people find stall the most frustrating playstyle to play against. This doesn't make it any better or worse, though, except maybe a few forfeits I've gotten when they couldn't kill my Audino xD

Speaking of Audino, Audino is the one Poke that I find on every single stall team in the tier. However, there is one Poke that I like almost more than Audino that I think gets ignored in this meta.

Lickilicky @ Leftovers
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Body Slam
- Dragon Tail

Lickilicky is a really underrated Pokemon that has its own set of pros and cons when compared to Audino. Audino is typically thought of as the better Poke (see: PU Viability Rankings), but Lickilicky has a similar niche.

There's a few things that Lickilicky is better at than Audino. In theory, Lickilicky has more bulk- 110/95/95 as opposed to 103/86/86. In addition, it has more offensive presence, not like it matters. However, Dragon Tail is a great move that prevents Pokes from setting up on Lickilicky, as opposed to Audino, who is easily set up on unless it has Toxic. In addition, Lickilicky has an amazing ability in Oblivious, which prevents it from being blatant taunt bait like Audino. This is a huge advantage.

So even though Audino has Regenerator which allows it to get extra recovery and Lickilicky only has Wish, I think that Lickilicky is under-appreciated in stall in this meta.

 

[RawMelon]

Mr. Mime @ Life Orb
Ability: Soundproof
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid / Modest Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Focus Blast

This Mime set handles stall pretty nicely, and its not difficult at all to come in on something like Gourgeist, Altaria, Vullaby, Avalugg, so on and force a switch. Once they switch out you're free to set up a Nasty Plot and basically clean house. Psyshock is the Psychic move of choice over Psychic to help with SpDef Clefairy, or even Audino if you don't like to risk missing Focus Blast. Against things like SpDef Grumpig you'll need some chip damage to get the OhKO, other than that Mime basically just kills everything else, including SpDef mons such as Audino and Clefairy.

Relevant Calcs

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 191-226 (52.4 - 62%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 335-395 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 450-530 (109.7 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Mr. Mime Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 320-378 (78 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

If the meta swings into a more stall-centric one in the near future then I can definitely seeing this being favored on more teams as a fail-safe against stall teams that can also still pressure bulkier and balanced builds. If that does happen at some point perhaps we'll see more bulky Metang on stall teams as a solid check to NP Mime (until they run Shadow Ball lol).

 

[Slowbroth]

Stall teams in PU absolutely, as I have noticed when not only teambuilding but also facing against, HATE Fire-Fighting-Ice coverage. This is why I believe mons such as Monferno and Simisear are so good offensively at pressuring stall because, quite simply, many stall teams have no switch ins to a STAB Life Orb Fire Blasts, Focus Blasts, Close Combats, Flare Blitzes, etc as well as coverage moves such as Hidden Power Ice, Grass Knot, Knock Off, etc. The obligatory Audino and Bulky grass core is, therefore, forced to have teammates that take mons with this coverage on, such as Politoed, Stunfisk, Grumpig, (Chinchou?) but even these mons get worn down quickly by these possible coverage moves and are not the most reliable answers to the two fire monkeys. Furthermore, if a stall team does not have a phazer and allows the mons to set up via Swords Dance or Nasty Plot (although admittedly this does force the dropping of a coverage move), and checks are weakened, say good bye to stall and say hello to sweep.

Also, stall in PU still suffers from the presence of Rotom-F, as its Bolt-Blizzard coverage and SubWow discourages Pokemon such as Gourgeist, Roselia, Avalugg, Stunfisk, Politoed, Vullaby and many others from effectively performing their role as walls, tanks and/or special sponges. And Rotom can simply Volt Switch out on Audino as it switches in and thus momentum is kept on the opponent's side. Simply put, if Rotom-F is not opening holes in the stall team, it is being a nuisance.

As a whole, I think building for stall is too restrictive and is just so gosh darn predictable as a playstyle. I hope this post captures what I and many others have felt when playing with and against stall.

 

[Wooly Ampharosite]

Duosion @ Eviolite
Ability: Magic Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psyshock / Psychic
- Acid Armor / Signal Beam

Is Calm Mind/Double Dance Duosion in the stall category or good against stall?

While Duosion fits in stall, being similar to Calm Mind Clefairy, it also works well against stall. With its reasonable bulk boosted by Eviolite, it is able to set up on stall mons, such as Stunfisk and Audino, and is able to absorb Burns and Poison because of Magic Guard. Duosion also isn't as passive as most stall mons are with its base 125 special attack and when it is boosted by Calm Mind, it is able to wear them down.

Calcs

+2 0 SpA Duosion Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Audino: 237-279 (57.8 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Politoed: 175-207 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 222-262 (59.3 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Duosion Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Stunfisk: 178-210 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 0 SpA Duosion Signal Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Grumpig: 134-158 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- 99.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Skankovich]

Ah ok, I have a lot of experience with stall in PU, and my teams tend to differ from the standard Audino/Fisk/Geist/Pig/Avalugg builds - I'll dump some of my findings here.

First I'll talk about avalugg, and basically I really dislike it lol. The main thing is that it loses to most spinblockers or has to play the long game with them when it comes to Toxic, which is lame because hazards are one of the most important tools for offence when it comes to dealing with stall teams. It means that any combination of hazard stack+a ghost is basically an insta-loss matchup unless you really outplay the opponent, and with the quality and variety of PU hazard setters (a large amount of which it loses to 1v1) this isn't a matchup where I'd want such a disadvantage. Not only that, but with a weakness to rocks it doesn't mesh well with other hazard removers, so running it with another to compensate for its general poor execution of its role isn't recommended. Even then though, I don't think Avalugg's walling ability would warrant such teambuilding strain anyway. Gourgeist is basically a given on stall, because it walls a ridiculous amount on the physical side of the spectrum, spreads very useful status in burns, passive damage in leech seed, spinblocks and has recovery so it's pretty self-reliant. There's little reason not to run it imo, as it makes building phys cores a lot easier with its role compression- basically all you need then is something to beat fire types, something for stout, something to beat flying types (basically just band dodrio, pluff loses) and something to beat pawn (even with colbur I like to be safe). The thing is though Avalugg loses to all of these mons, it's literally not switching into any of those mons safely with rocks up, the rocks that it also struggles to remove. It covers so little extra ground than Fat Pumpkin that it often just feels like a waste of a slot to me.

Meanwhile though, Carbink! As was mentioned earlier, I run this quite a lot. In terms of synchronisation with Geist, Carbink fills lots of gaps. Dodrio and Stout aren't an issue at all (unless iron head but like...), while Rapidash and non-SD Monferno also lose to it easily. It can do a few things, but my favourite set is Crobink, a bulky wincon that a surprising amount of teams are unprepared for, and a mon that quite handily can switch into a sub Rotom-F set with an easy wish from Audino and force it out by setting up calm minds- it's unusual for a Rotom check to fit in quite so easily to a team in my experience. With how easily it slots in to a typical stall core and the ground it covers, I think it deserves more usage on the archetype.

Fatferno is something I like a lot too. A speedy will-o-wisp, beats pawn, rocks, recovery, and with a bit of spdef helps with Rotom. Neat mon- too bad that it loses its balk on the main thing it's mean to check, but I find it's still useful without eviolite thanks to that fast burn.

Some other random thoughts-

LO Gorebyss is a bitch to deal with. Things like Grumpig and Rose are 1hko'd at +2, and things like Politoed can't do very much back besides haze, so you have to resort to some otherwise unusual stuff to deal with it. I've resorted to Chinchou recently, which is astoundingly meh but at least it also helps with Raichu and Rotom on the side. There's also spdef articuno, which I love, but even with Vibrava the pressure rocks apply just makes me kind of uncomfortable.

Also with LO water types, LO basculin is hard to deal with now that Ice Beam is popular, luckily it's not too hard to wear down I find.

Duosion/Clefairy are just one of those things you have to prepare for, but they do apply a lot of pressure. A combination of phasers and skill swap Gourgeist is what I tend to use, and they're both vulnerable to knock off. Have this random ridiculously long replay of a persistent Duosion team: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-349822581

Set-up fire types are really good against the playstyle. Simisear in particular ravages it but no one is running nasty plot, or simisear in general, rn. If you could though and take it away from ZU that would be great!

As for overall viability of the playstyle... it's ok. It's a bit harder than most tiers to cover all viable threats but in practice it does well enough. People are more prepared for it now, so it's certainly harder to run that it was a while back. As a closing note, have a stall team I used to run a lot and still do, not the strongest but I like how it plays more than most:

Hide

Audino @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Wish
- Protect
- Knock Off
- Heal Bell

Gourgeist-Super @ Colbur Berry
Ability: Insomnia
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Foul Play
- Synthesis
- Skill Swap

Carbink @ Leftovers
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Sleep Talk
- Calm Mind
- Moonblast

Monferno @ Eviolite
Ability: Iron Fist
EVs: 248 HP / 148 Def / 24 SpD / 88 Spe
Impish Nature
- Fire Punch
- Will-O-Wisp
- Slack Off
- Stealth Rock

Chinchou @ Eviolite
Ability: Volt Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Thunderbolt
- Toxic
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

Vullaby @ Eviolite
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Whirlwind
- Roost
- Defog
- Foul Play

 

[2xTheTap]

A lot of what I've wanted to talk about regarding stall has been covered by the people before me (with options like Leafeon, Subroost Articuno, practically any variant of Simisear, etc.), but there are still a few Pokemon in PU that have yet to be mentioned.


I think Rain teams actually have a great matchup against stall; if you're not running double Grass cores (ex. Ranbu's stall with Gourgeist-Super + Roselia), a lot of offensive Water-types can come in and break down their defensive options with their Ice-type coverage moves, meaning standard Gourgeist-XL with Leftovers or Colbur is often hard-pressed to stay alive and blanket check other physical threats that it needs to beat. This means, as Skankovich already mentioned, Gorebyss is a huge threat to stall, and basically requires the use of a bulky Spdef phazer and/or Encore (hence why Encore on Audino is its dominant 4th moveslot at the moment).


Another threat from Rain that really messes with stall is actually LO Beartic. If it's able to setup via Swords Dance, it can OHKO Stall's physically defensive walls with ease (even Carbink and defensive Monferno are 2HKOed):

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 439-523 (117.3 - 139.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

^This is another reason why I like to run Yache on Geist-XL

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Beartic Superpower vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Avalugg: 385-455 (97.9 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

If we examine Beartic's matchup against Dundies' stall too, Beartic with SR support basically 6-0s with its powerful STAB- and LO-boosted Icicle Crash: it OHKOes Altaria, Golem, non-Yache Gourgeist-XL, Spdef Clefairy, Audino, and Cryogonal. While it can be difficult to find setup opportunities without being statused, it can use Lum or even Substitute to remedy that, or it can just come in on Cryogonal as it spins or on a resisted Freeze-Dry (as uninvested HP Fighting doesn't do much). That basically equates to stall teams reliant on Cryogonal choosing between leaving entry hazards up on their side of the field or having to deal with an angry +2 LO Beartic.

/ +
Another combination of Pokemon that is hugely annoying to stall at the moment, as Anty mentioned already I think, is using a bulky Ghost-type + Toxic Spikes. Misdreavus plagues Tubular Bells and really only fears being paralyzed by Stunfisk's Discharge, poison via Roselia's Sludge Bomb, and being worn down by Audino's Knock Off (however, you can Pain Split and then Taunt it out of Wish if necessary). Along this same line of thought, Pursuit Dusknoir + Toxic Spikes is able to do the same thing to Dundies' stall team with Cryogonal being effectively spinblocked and trapped. This combination essentially capitalizes on how easy Rapid Spin is to play around and the effectiveness of Toxic Spikes on slower threats (especially if the opposing stall team is lacking a grounded Poison-type like Roselia).


There are also a handful of heavy hitters in PU that really don't care about walls and often just need to be revenge killed, but given stall doesn't have the speed to revenge kill faster threats, Pokemon like Marowak, Rampardos, and even threats lower on the VR like Specs Glaceon become insanely difficult to deal with. This is partially the reason why I've stuck with balance and bulky offense more than I've played with stall, as the ladder absolutely loves these slow wallbreakers, and in order to deal with them successfully, something faster is generally necessary.

 

[Teddeh]

What i personally find is that when playing against stall and when using stall, the stall players moves are often so predictable simply because they can't afford to lose a mon in their team because they are so reliant on each other and each of the 6 mons has a role to play. So it is often easy to manipulate the stall players moves usually with hazards, wearing their team down by using knock off and things like status, but mainly concentrating on using hazards such as stealth rock and breaking their defogger / setters themselves.

One very cool stall breaker at the moment is a fun one:

Scragster5000 (Scraggy) @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

For stall teams that don't have clefairy, this bad boy 6-0's as it sets up on gourgeist and takes 0 from the quad resisted foul play. It managed to bag me a game deciding win against KJ Corp in PU seasonal round 6 or 8, i can't really remember, but nevertheless, it is a fantastic stall breaker as it has shed skin to get rid of status and impressive bulk regardless of minor hp stats. Also, it can act as a status absorber even if they have a clefairy and it can also spread knock off through the team, removing potential eviolites and leftovers which allows for a great opportunity for it to sweep / break for other members on the team.

My second mon that i like at the moment is this bad boy:

Golfball (Golem) @ Choice Band
Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Stone Edge
- Earthquake
- Sucker Punch
- Superpower

Banded stone edge / earthquake is a massive breaker. With gourgeist with lefties removed (it can't break gourgeist at the start of the match for example) but if you remove leftovers and get stealth rocks up, it can 2 hit ko comfortably with a little bit of chip damage (and providing you hit the move) most golem answers in stall.
252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Stone Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%)
that's if they aren't running mixed defenses to help check things like floatzel also. So a cool breaker in my opinion, especially whilst having sturdy to force things like floatzel out who would in most cases kill you in one shot, however for it being a win con for their team and such.

 

[Anty]

Ok sorry for the late update as I was busy. Anyway, this week with the new entry of Crustle, it is only fitting to do Entry Hazards!

This includes stuff related to hazards ofc

 

[MZ]

I said I was gonna make a post here but I don't wanna rehash a bunch of points about hazards everybody knows about. Instead, how do people feel about Spikes in the meta? They've gone from being pretty much a dominant force in the PU Metagame to something that you can see people not even prepare for. And you can get games like zdrup v lockjaw where the presence of spikes is hugely important in beating bulky offense, but you can get games against hyper offense teams where your Roselia is only going to trade vs 1 mon, so why are you clicking Spikes. We have more viable Spikers than any other tier but their actual presence has kinda been flip flopping recently. And even our suicide leads are often limited to a single spike now if they have something like BP Machoke or Mach Monferno. Overall I feel a lot of the Quilladin popularity has come from its ability to be a generally solid offensive threat in addition to carrying Spikes if they happen to put in work against the opposing team. So yeah just my impressions on spikes rn. How do you guys feel about Spikes' place in the meta?

 

[MZ]

Hugely important? If you're talking about this match, l0ckjaw had Sub CM Grumpig and just needed to get it into Clefairy once to 6-0 the team without a single extra damage needed on any of my mons. I don't think entry hazards could have been more useless on that matchup.

Anyway, carry on, just posting because I was mentioned for some reason.

oh I didn't really watch the end, I basically clicked off when the fact that he had spikes and didn't just lose to CM clef meant that it was gonna be over anyway, mb. Grumpig just won, but standard taunt still should've won by MU just because spikes vs that team = win

 

[Anty]

I think that replay does still show why stall needs a hazard remover to properly function. Even if lockjaw didn't have a Grumpig, but something like Arbok which zdrup's Gabite could have potentially dealt with, Gabite could get easily warn down by the hazards, and Arbok could threaten Clefairy/Tangela and set up. Its not just that situation, I remember seeing Galbia beat Dundies stall with a mix of U-turn Monferno + Leafeon + Mime, as with Stealth Rocks up, Monferno weaken Altaria with Rocks and force it not to recover with Mime, and Galbia kept offensive momentum up so Cryogonal couldn't switch in. Stall teams are inherently weak to entry hazards as they have difficulty pressuring Spikes users (not too weak to just Stealth Rock though) so running a hazard remover is crucial to avoid potentially losing at team preview. Obviously this isn't always enough, as for example Spikes + Pursuit Dusknoir can roll over Cryo stall, but that is just a risk you have to take when running stall.

I've noticed somewhat recently (starting about a month ago) that Quilladin had been getting more popular, particularly on offensive teams. Its a nice check to plenty of things like Pawniard and Machoke, but having Spikes really helps you agaisnt bulkier teams like balance, as spikes allows strong Pokemon to destroy their defensive cores. Roselia usually doesn't set up as many Spikes I've noticed, as it cannot switch in as easily as this metagame is more physical than special, whereas Crustle can usually get two hazards up (though I have noticed lead sets tend to only get rocks up).

Although PU now has quite a few hazard removers, they can all be underwhelming at times, Cryogonal will often have to sack itself to spin vs Spikes HO (though vs balanced teams bulky Cryogonal has more options) and it loses to both Dusknoir and Twave Missy. As for defog users, Lumineon is often forced to check more than it can, but is generally reliable at Defogging, Prinplup is in a similar position, Vullaby is usually praised as the best Defog user, but I have found it less reliable than some others at defogging as it is usually forced to roost (or attack) and can be pressured by what should come in on (Taunt grumpig, Gleam kadabra, etc), and lastly Swanna is alright but annoyingly its not to easy to fit on offense. Even with their flaws, most hazard removers can get away with only spinning/defogging once a game (or more vs stall) as in a fast paced meta, once can be enough.

 

[Akir]

So I don't think that there is a debate to be had about the effectiveness of hazards in the tier, but I feel like there is room for discussion for hazard control. To that end, I'll share some opinions on some hazard control mons that I've used lately.

I actually really like Dusknoir as a spinblocker at the moment. Not only do the CB and LO sets pursuit trap Cryogonal, but Dusknoir can also check Monferno if healthy (which is just handy in general). Along with the priority available in Shadow Sneak and Sucker Punch, and access to plenty of coverage and natural bulk, Dusknoir is very solid at the moment as an offensive spinblocker for hyper-offensive-hazard-stack teams. I rarely see myself using any other spinblocker on HO.

The only gripes that I have with Dusknoir is the bad matchups that the thing has against Armaldo and Avalugg. Armaldo can win 1v1 with the offensive set and Knock Off, and Avalugg can easy stall Dusknoir out. I could run a more defensive Dusknoir to stand a better chance against these mons, but then I lose the ability to trap Cryogonal. Choosing which mons I'm able to beat with my spinblocker is always part of the teambuilding process, but Dusknoir in particular has issue covering all of the spinners PU has at once. I really should try NP/Twave Missy sometime.

Full disclosure: I actually do not like Lumineon, regardless of the fact that I have used it extensively. If Water spam was not such an issue, I do not think Lumineon would be a fraction as used as it is. Lumineon is "just" bulky enough to take a hit or 2, Defog, and hopefully U-turn out to a mon that actually checks the Waters that you switched Lumineon into. The lack of healing also drags Lumineon down in comparison to other hazard removers, and add the fact that it takes full hazard damage and you have a defogger that can struggle to do its own job along the course of a game.

But it's not entirely bad. If healthy and played conservatively, Lumineon can be a decent pivot. The fact that a lot of mons (physical Floatzel, Monferno, AoA Simipour, etc.) fail to 2hko even after rocks is beneficial. The speed is also a nice bonus. While a lot of people prefer dropping Lumineon's speed, I like to invest the spare 8 EVs into the speed to always outspeed Pawniard and win 1v1 if I either catch the Pawn on the switch or burn with Scald. I would still rather use another hazard remover, but if the team is weak to Water and needs the U-turn then "just bulky enough" Lumineon isn't a bad idea.

 

[Anty]

I made a banner and added it to op. This week is:

Fighting-types and their role in the meta!

 

[ShuckleDeath]

These two Pokemon are starting to really define the meta. With few switch, multiple set's and roles, ability to check Pokemon such as Pawnaird, Stoutland, Golem, Audino, Roselia, Relicanth, Gourgeist-XL, ect. The list goes on and to of varying degrees.

Machoke is not S Rank for no reason, Teddeh and Anty, do a great job explaining them Here.

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 160 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Def / 28 SpD / 44 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Bullet Punch

With very few reliable switch-ins arguably the best, Dustox and Slowpoke, being almost completely unviable with out the one niche being able to switch into Machoke. Other Pokemon that switch into Machoke really do not appreciate it with Eviolite Pokemon such as as Clefairy and Vullaby hate getting there item knocked off as it make them much easier to break mid-game of coarse making it easier for the opponent to clean end-game. And Pokemon like Stunfisk that lack recovery just getting worn down. Defensively speaking Machoke does not slouch, the set I posted here is the standard analysis, and it is already very challenging to bring down Machoke in one hit. A few Pokemon do have the capability such as Life Orb Swanna's Hurricane and Choice Specs Mr.Mime's Psychic. These move's are typically are typically easy and bring up a lot of 50 50's. Also keep in mind this is just the base line spread you have other option's such as running Guts Close Combat making it more difficult to be stopped by status, and more investment in Speed or Defenses. You may also change move's around along with the EV spread to cater to your team's need's with option's such as Earthquake, ResTalk, and Bulk Up. This Pokemon is easily one of if not the best Pokemon in the tier.

Monferno is a Pokemon that gained popularity latter on it's PU run. When Pokemon such as Exeggcutor and Pawnaird dropped and with stuff like Stoutland already being popular I know player's started to notice Monferno's Speed Tier typing and movepool and it all clicked together how potentially good Monferno could be, I even went as far as to Nominating it to rise two spot's in the Viability Rankings, which it did not at first but slowly over new shift's Monferno has proven to still be an effective Pokemon in the metagame.

I won't go into as much detail on Monferno as there is quite a few good set's you can run but the gist of most of them are Few switch-ins, ability to check ether through typing or move pool Pokemon including but limited to, Pawnaird, Stoutland, Roselia, Rotom-F(sort of a giant boon imo), Leafeon, Simisage, Ninetales, ect. It's support movepool including Taunt, Stealth Rock, U-Turn, Swords Dance, Will-o-Wisp, and Slack Off. so basically the set's and spread vary from team to team Monferno is unpredictable, has a good typing and a fantastic movepool, while having under-average offensives, and not being able to out speed some of the faster Pokemon in the tier it has that fantastic 81 Base Speed tier and ability to use Eviolite to make up for it. Same as Machoke just one of the best Pokemon to use in this current Metagame.

 

[MaroGod]

With ShuckleDeath taking up the notable and well known fighting mons ill take up the lower half unlike the former these two fighting types have got recent recognition on the VR and are very unique in there roles but assist in proving why Fighting is one of the scariest types in the tier.

Scraggy @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 176 HP / 52 Def / 252 SpD / 28 Spe
Careful Nature
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Bulk Up

Scraggy, This Pokemon fills some very unique niches in the combination of its Dark-Typing and access to Shed Skin allowing Scraggy to serve as both a win-con and status absorber through-out a match with its main place in Semi-Stall,Bulky Offense and some forms of Balance as far as playstyles go and with the miracle item in Eviolite Scraggy is able to assert its ok defensive stats (50,70,70) into respectable levels allowing scraggy to switch into most forms of Psychic,Electric,Water and Ice type Pokemon being a counter in some cases and a solid check towards to top Pokemon (Rotom-F,Special Floatzel).

With the spread give and made by yours truly a god Scraggy allows itself to get little benefits with each investment at first the spread was simply 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD which ShuckleDeath and me tested a long time ago but with the rise and addition of some Pokemon ive found this spread to work well in Scraggys role. The Def investment allow Scraggy to take physical attacks while setting up even better but most notably avoiding an OHKO from a Machoke CC+BP combo and potential OHKOs from NoChoke and Monferno at +1. As for Speed this allows you to out-speed standard Machoke and Audino and the HP and SpD allowing Scraggy to further its switch in capabilities (HP working along side Def)

Back when Vigoroth was in PU the bulk up set was largely considered outclassed] so a nice set made by Raiza worked effectively and allowed Scraggy to hold some sort of niche while Vigoroth still deserves a mention and is summed up perfectly here --> http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/undiscovered-nfes.3553024/#post-6531621

First off, All credit goes towards user Tect who actually took the time and effort to test out Mienfoo and find any niche it could posses: Original Post --> http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-will-be-deleted.3522046/page-12#post-6407646

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
Relaxed Nature
- Baton Pass
- High Jump Kick
- Swords Dance / Calm Mind / Bulk Up
- Swords Dance / Calm Mind / Bulk Up / Knock Off / Substitute

Getting straight into it Mienfoo is also very unique in its capabilities along with the other fighting types with Mienfoo however it is all about support with its main niche being an effective Stat Passer this allows Mienfoo to be a very advantageous pokemon on most playstyles due to the various stat increases it can pass each even making rather niche sets somewhat more viable such as ScarfStoutland. Mienfoo doesnt necessarily have to focus on passing stats either as it also is capable at long term SubPassing and this is heavily due to Regenerator a big part of Mienfoo and what arguably allows it to be viable in the first place.

Although Mienfoo has one main job being its stat passing it still remains quite a versatile pokemon due to its ability to use multiple stat boosting moves,Sub or Knock Off further allowing Mienfoo to keep an opponent on their toes Mienfoo also doesnt suffer from being overly passive due to a powerful HJK as its main stab option and the optional knock off for further support both of which can even be used to somewhat break to clean opposing teams late game due to SD or BU.



As far as how these two Pokemon affect the meta its slightly hard to say as despite being actually very nice pokemon they arent exactly popular due to the only recent variety of players beginning to use them considering they also both currently reside in the D rank also turn off appeal to more competitive players again mostly due to the recent addition to the ranks and personally i can easily see both making a slow rise up the C ranks.

Scraggy - Single handily called the killer of stall and with good reason if you lack a Clefairy,Phasing move,Perish Song or the Pokemon holding said move is taken out Stall is near killed by Scraggy due to the previously mentioned Shed Skin and semi-reliable recovery with Rest a lot of bulky teams from personal experience and viewed battles seem to struggle a lot more then on first glance due to what scraggy has access too with Knock Off especially being annoying during the mid-game with the loss of Choice items,Lefties and Eviolites. More offensive builds have an easier time however scraggy is able to remain some form of support with the previously mentioned knock off and being a check/wall to common special attackers on said style.

Mieinfoo - Mienfoo is something that has had even less usage then Scraggy again with many either not knowing the Set/Spread or just unappealing and as far as how it does in the meta Mienfoo finds itself in a nice place with the mass being Balance or Bulk over hyper-offense allowing it to fit better and begin its shenanigans.

These two are overshadowed by the big daddys of PU taking the main spotlight however they are yet to be eclipsed and have yet to show how truly threatening both can be i look forward to see Fighting Types take over as personally i find them the most threatening type in PU as of this meta

 

[Teddeh]

Personally I would rather run a different set for scrafty as a bulky booster rather than a rest-talk mon, because I think machoke does that better!

Scragster5000 (Scraggy) @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

This set acts as a bulky booster whilst using shed skin to wake up and avoid status (hopefully xd). Bulky boosting means you can bypass teams not running fairy coverage and at +2def, you can easily beat monfernos. Machoke however is an issue, but then again when is machoke never an issue? O:

As for another set which I think has gone very much un-noticed is this bad boy here:

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Substitute
- Bulk Up

Not yet a popular set however I can see this particular set coming out to play in tournament games in PU seasonal. By running sub-bulk up with max speed, you can avoid will-o's from solrock (not carrying zen headbutt), knock off's from other machokes, free subs on gourgeist, and in general be a royal pain in the ass for bulkier teams that rely on status / leech seed to beat machoke. I've not worked out an optimal spread as yet, but again this is a set that is not yet popular, but could be given a bit of limelight as bulkier teams are starting to shine through in the meta at the moment :)

And talking about fighting types in this meta, as they are so dominant, i wanted to think of a sweeper which could take advantage of them, hence why I came up with PU's version of a bulky psychic type with a recovery move, a type of pokemon that the tier has been missing for a long time:

Beheeyem @ Leftovers / colbur berry
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Psyshock
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Signal Beam

Checking d-punch machoke very well and forcing it out. Not only does it not have very many switch ins in the tier, it reliably checks fighting types like machoke and monferno.
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Beheeyem: 168-198 (47.5 - 56%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Beheeyem: 112-134 (31.7 - 37.9%) -- 91.2% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Beheeyem: 133-157 (37.6 - 44.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Not only does it check fighting types, it can also reliably beat every special attacker in the tier after a calm mind due to very high special bulk:
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. +1 248 HP / 4 SpD Beheeyem: 127-150 (35.9 - 42.4%) -- 94.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

A great option for a fighting type check that isn't gourgeist whilst having a recovery move that can last throughout the match.

Whilst the second option I like at the moment is this bad boy:

Swanna @ Leftovers
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 240 HP / 232 Def / 36 Spe
Bold Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Air Slash
- Scald

Providing hp electric / thunderpunch machoke / monferno don't become a thing (this set isn't very popular right now, so i doubt they will) but this mon oozes reliable recovery for the team whilst having the ability to check things like leafeon also. Being able to hard-wall monferno and to be able to hard counter bulky machoke or even the all out attacker set (providing you don't hit yourself in confusion D:) then it's a great option for teams, whilst also providing a way to beat grass types with air slash and having enough speed to outspeed neutral base 70's such as max speed politoad. A good option for stopping fighting types in the current meta :)

And posting my thoughts on fighting types for the moment:

Personally, I believe fighting types are the best threats in the tier right now, more-so than floatzel or rotom-f as they are simply so hard to switch in to, whilst both having their own perks. Things like gourgeist can only check certain varieties of machoke, I am suggesting using defensive swanna whilst the machoke user decides what move it may want to drop in order to hit the water bird, since ice punch isn't the most useful since knock off + d-punch could hit roselia enough to kill / 2hitko providing confusion whilst having a move to beat this "counter". That being said, I love using fighting types too, as they are so hard to play against unless you have the proper team to fight them with. As most of the tier carries an eviolite or is severely threatened by the fear of a STAB d-punch or Knock off, it provides a lot of team support luring things like tangela, clefairy, gourgeist, vullaby etc etc to get rid of their items and help for a 2hit ko for another member of your team, hence making them excellent team members.

I think I've rambled enough, but you see my points

 

[MaroGod]

Personally I would rather run a different set for scrafty as a bulky booster rather than a rest-talk mon, because I think machoke does that better!

Scragster5000 (Scraggy) @ Eviolite
Ability: Shed Skin
EVs: 248 HP / 44 Def / 216 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rest
- Bulk Up
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

This set acts as a bulky booster whilst using shed skin to wake up and avoid status (hopefully xd). Bulky boosting means you can bypass teams not running fairy coverage and at +2def, you can easily beat monfernos. Machoke however is an issue, but then again when is machoke never an issue? O:

Ngl my Bad it was meant to have Bulk UP in my post pretty sure i mentioned BU still thank you for pointing it out ;-;

 

[EnemyJurist]

While the best Fighting-type mons have been covered very well, I want to take a minute to talk about fighting-type coverage. Fighting is an excellent type here, hitting the vast majority of viable mons at least neutrally, and a good chunk super effectively. Thus, Fighting-type coverage is almost always a good idea (or at least semiviable option.) This is illustrated in many mons and many sets.

Stoutland @ Choice Band
Ability: Scrappy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Return
- Superpower
- Facade
- Pursuit / Crunch

First, the mighty Stoutland. Would it be A+ rank without the coverage of Superpower? Rock- and Steel-type Pokemon would wall it so easily, and even purely defensive mons would have a lot more ease in walling it or stalling it out.

Leafeon @ Choice Band
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Leaf Blade
- Knock Off
- Return
- Bullet Seed / Rock Smash

CB Leafeon is a nice antilead, but when Pawn usage was high, Megazard whipped out the rock smash Leafeon to counter. I don't know what else he used it against, but this is a nice niche example of what a mon can do.

Raichu @ Life Orb
Ability: Lightningrod
EVs: 4 Def / 252 Spa / 252 Spe
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 Def
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power Ice
- Focus Blast

Special wallbreakers love fighting-type coverage, as it hits a lot of fatmons neutrally or super effectively. It is also the only type that hits the queen fatmon, Audino, super effectively. Nasty Plot Raichu is a nice example of this. Focus Blast 2hkoes Audino normally, and +2 outright ohkoes. NP Simisage is in the same boat.

Also, Hidden Power Fighting. It's used on many mons to round out coverage, such as Misdreavus, Cryogonal, and Drifblim. Fighting + another good offensive type hits the vast majority of the tier at least neutrally (for example, Misdreavus's Shadow Ball+HP Fight is neutral against everything except Vullaby.)

In conclusion, fighting-type is a great type to have, and an even better type to be. I for one hope we get a few more fighting-types in the future, be it from Pokemon Sun and Moon or drops from NU (Poliwrath dropping would make me the happiest guy alive. Seriously, how could anyone not want Water Absorb+Fighting stab?) Fighting continues to be dominant in many forms, and I feel that the trend will continue for a while.