Metagame Type Split (May LCotM!) Darkrai, Volcarona & Damp Rock Banned #55

[ZarbyXar]

Problem is, Prima is neutral to that which I really don't want


Ty

SV/Lokix

Nvm it doesn't work

You forgot to put it in the :

 

[competitiveZero]

Here's another report. First, a team (sample worthy perhaps? until the first ban wave?). I just used it the entire time on my climb to top 1:
View attachment 631399
lo kommo balance https://pokepast.es/be1fe3129f03415a

this replay shows how to pilot the team vs other balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9typesplit-2120059965-wbboan7xa0guwu36j557w6j9jma4z9rpw?p2

Notable meta developments and some thoughts:


There's no development, except that now I realize it's extremely uncompetitive. The way this meta plays out, darkrai almost never loses its boots, and given its bulk and the relevant psychic types , and the potency of defensive pivots (especially ), it gets a lot of opportunities to switch in. And whenever it does so, it gets to click ice beam (except for like one knock for each check early game). This becomes a viable wincon in balance vs balance, there's actually no opportunity cost in fishing for a freeze, and darkrai is splashable. The outcome of a freeze depends on the darkrai answer: is very likely to die, loses all of its longevity, doesn't check darkrai anymore. Please let's not have type split deteriorate like this - at least include darkrai in the first poll or whatever.

I've lost to last mon darkrai with my ~50% primarina due to ice beam freeze, unfortunately no replay.

See the replay earlier in this post and also this one: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9typesplit-2119859181-vg9kohq37cuxl6ba4ebplijayr3yk17pw


Zacian is broken with this new life orb set. idbp steel birds no longer survive the 2hko from cc, and mola scald is counterplay only 30% of the time. The only real counterplay is dondozo and balloon intact gholdengo, which zacian has to steel beam in order to break. Please ban.

Zacian @ Life Orb
Ability: Intrepid Sword
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Steel Beam
- Tera Blast

+3 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Zacian Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Skeledirge: 234-276 (56.7 - 66.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Zacian Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 227-269 (67.9 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Tera Ground Zacian Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 120+ Def Landorus-Therian: 328-386 (85.8 - 101%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Zacian Steel Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 296-350 (88.6 - 104.7%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+3 252 Atk Life Orb Zacian Tera Blast (80 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Zapdos: 213-252 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


No development, I just realized it's broken and uncompetitive, please ban.


The ladder is filled with sylveon, mostly flame orb facade sets. There's not much to say, it's quite good IMO, the roles it provides are valuable: it checks various HO threats (like iron val, darkrai, chipped dnite etc), and it burns right through spdef unaclef fat:

252+ SpA Pixilate Sylveon Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 207-244 (52.5 - 61.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I saw people use various sets, mostly belly drum and dd, notably all looking to abuse boomburst. Good mon. Incidentally, non-boomburst kommo is decent counterplay to these, thanks to soundproof. Thanks Dantheman1cool for this tip :)


I matched into one other person running this, (and i lost to them), but one is still great compared to day 1 when no one else brought volcanion. This mon is good, people, like, you should be using it more i think (2 of the teams i shared here both have good sets) also yes scald > steam eruption on spdef volcanion because pp reasons.

(tera opinion ahead)
There's a delicate balance in viabilities of all the playstyles, and IMO it's kept intact by tera. If tera were to be banned, overall, defensive mons would be significantly buffed, and offensive ones, especially on the physical side and with insufficient natural coverage, would be nerfed. The only way I see this play out is like so: certain mons like zacian and volcarona evade ban, and stall gets a piece banned (dondozo?).

It's consistent with the vision of the om (modern gen 3 but different execution from mg1/mg2) to ban tera, there's no arguing that. But the above outcome IMO would be much less fun and interactive/competitive than the current meta. There are a lot of threats to account for (compared to actual gen 3), and tera provides this intricate flexibility in defensive pivots that makes balance feel good to build and play. Once the blatantly broken abusers are banned, at least.

It should also be kept in mind that tera as a mechanic is heavily nerfed by the om restriction. I'll be open minded in regard to points in favor of tera ban that anyone actually

Here's another report. First, a team (sample worthy perhaps? until the first ban wave?). I just used it the entire time on my climb to top 1:
View attachment 631399
lo kommo balance https://pokepast.es/be1fe3129f03415a

this replay shows how to pilot the team vs other balance
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9typesplit-2120059965-wbboan7xa0guwu36j557w6j9jma4z9rpw?p2

Notable meta developments and some thoughts:


There's no development, except that now I realize it's extremely uncompetitive. The way this meta plays out, darkrai almost never loses its boots, and given its bulk and the relevant psychic types , and the potency of defensive pivots (especially ), it gets a lot of opportunities to switch in. And whenever it does so, it gets to click ice beam (except for like one knock for each check early game). This becomes a viable wincon in balance vs balance, there's actually no opportunity cost in fishing for a freeze, and darkrai is splashable. The outcome of a freeze depends on the darkrai answer: is very likely to die, loses all of its longevity, doesn't check darkrai anymore. Please let's not have type split deteriorate like this - at least include darkrai in the first poll or whatever.

I've lost to last mon darkrai with my ~50% primarina due to ice beam freeze, unfortunately no replay.


No development, I just realized it's broken and uncompetitive, please ban.

We hear you, particularly on these 2 pokemon which have been absolutely unfair to the player base thus far, slyveon and zacien are pokemon of concern as well imo.
Side note(even in the events of a tera ban, which hopefully does not occur, idt we'll feel inclined to ban anything stall related)

 

[OceanicGamer]

You forgot to put it in the :

Where would I put the colon

 

[chartung17]

Where would I put the colon

:sv/lokix:

 

[SergioRules]

Sorry this took so long, I was waiting a bit to get some more feedback but I think it's finally time. First voting slate is done! (I unfortunately have not been able to contact our last member so we'll be looking for replacements soon!)

	Darkrai	Volcarona	Walking Wake	Damp Rock	Iron Valiant	Zacian	Terastallization
SergioRules	Ban	Ban	No Ban	Ban	No Ban	No Ban	No Ban
CompetitiveZero	Ban	Ban	No Ban	Ban	Ban	No Ban	No Ban

DARKRAI, VOLCARONA, AND DAMP ROCK HAVE BEEN BANNED FROM TYPE SPLIT!!
Darkrai has been a problem since day 1 and I probably should've just banned it without a vote but here we are oops. Insanely strong Knock Offs and great other options set this too far apart from anything else. I feel like I don't have too much else to say about this one.

Volcarona is another Pokemon that has been problematic, losing Water as a way of checking since there aren't any physical moves, while gaining Wild Charge as an option to break through bulkier Waters. Terastallization further presses this issue making its check much more unreliable, however, we don't think Tera is inherently broken just yet, so we're taking care of one of the more problematic users first.

Rain is very strong and needs to be taken down just a peg. Originally, I planned on banning Walking Wake instead of Damp Rock but I'd like to see what comes of the meta with this change first.

Tagging dhelmise for implementing (THANK YOU!!)

WHAT'S NEXT?
We'll still be exploring some other strong players in the tier, namely and but there are definitely other concerns we'll try to work on. Tera will definitely be a discussion for a later date and we'll be looking at expanding the council some over the next month or so. If you are passionate about the tier be sure to keep dropping your (well-thought-out) feedback, sets you're seeing success with or even full teams for some samples. I'll be considering people for council based on engagement with the meta, so let's get it!

 

[competitiveZero]

As for my reasonings for voting how I did, I will allowing yall a look into my mind

[Voted Ban], darkrai Definitely felt like the safest ban on the slate, the mon has repeatedly torn through its own checks and overall just overpowered the tier, this was an easy ban for me

[Voted Ban], Volcarona may have been directly nerfed by type split of paper, but as Sergio mentioned upon further looks this mon gained alot of tools, as well as just being very fishy and imo uncompetitive, I wanted this gone asap.

[Voted do not ban], I'm not gonna lie this pokemons calcs are terrifying but in practice I haven't found it to be too much, and in the scenarios that I did deem problematic are resolved better by a proper rain ban or a further look into weather in general than banning this specific abuser.

Damp rock[Voted ban], speak of the devil, this is the first step in balancing the problematic rain playstyle. Definitely glad this got banned(not the only item on my radar)

[Voted ban], noteably the one difference between mine and sergios votes, this pokemon seemed to me like a MU fishier, harder to lock down version of a pokemon I already have on thin ice, Zacien
However im interested to see how the mon behaves in the post ban meta

[Voted dnb], this pokemon is still on thin ice but as hard walls to its best sets do exist, as well as it occasionally having trouble getting in, I believe this mon should be allowed to stay for now.


Tera[Voted Dnb], as is the opinion I've held in all gen 9 metas I've played in, tera should not be banned, especially with how few mons are actually broken by it in type split.
This was an easy Do not ban.

I hope you all enjoy the changes, keep that feedback coming<3

 

[Cuddly]

So Valiant didn’t get banned, here is a set I’ve been using

Iron Valiant @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Shadow Ball
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- Encore/Snadow Sneak/Vacuum Wave
Iron Valiant is generally amazing in this meta because it keeps its versatility. It can be a lot of things even if Special sets lack Fighting coverage and vice versa, and I like this Sword Dance set.
Kind of a classic type of coverage you’d find in ADV OU. Fighting and Ghost complement each other well, only being walled by Normal/Ghost, which frankly might as well not exist.
You got Shadow Ball being Physical for better physical ghost coverage, Close Combat as a strong Fighting STAB, Sword Dance to boost up and start OHKO things, and choice between Encore and priority matching its STABs.
Encore is great especially if you have another Encore Pokemon which can allow you to Encore lock Pokemon into status moves or Sucker Punch, giving multiple free turns of Sword Dance. The Booster Energy making that possible for most Pokemon.
Shadow Sneak and Vacuum Wave are priority which is always good to have. Especially if you’re forced out so you can still beat faster Pokemon later on.
Tera Ghost for Ghost STAB pretty much, and in some scenarios dodging a Bullet Punch or something.

 

[Leeto64]

I'm looking into trying out this meta, any tips for running Palafin-Hero?

 

[OceanicGamer]

:sv/lokix:

Tysm

 

[aim]

are there sample teams anywhere?

 

[Glory]

are there sample teams anywhere?

As of the moment there are no sample teams since the meta is only a few weeks old, with some recent major bans. Unfortunately said bans also render the majority of teams that have been shared in the thread thus far illegal, but here are the ones that are still legal for you.

pao balance (mostly used this one)
https://pokepast.es/4c214c6d4d1ea589

Specs Raging Bolt Bulky Offense



Zekrom Sand

Incredibly biased but I do think that the Specs Raging Bolt one is very solid as I've been using it quite a lot with good results.

 

[competitiveZero]

are there sample teams anywhere?

Samples are in the works now that wave 1 of bans are decided, as glory said all of the still legal teams posted thus far are great places to start.

 

[SergioRules]

Sample Teams
Mixed CM Valiant+Dice Kyurem by SergioRules
DD Hex Pult Sun by SergioRules
Samurott Offense by SergioRules
Double Dog+ Flame Orb Sylv by SergioRules
Lando+Prim Offense by competitiveZero
Specs Bolt Offense by Glory
Chien-Pao Balance by demirab1

Samples are updated! Several teams that have been posted in this thread were added, as well as a few of my own that I have been waiting to share. I hope everyone continues to enjoy playing Type Split!

 

[demirab1]

could you give an example of how tera balances the metagame?

Ok, take volcanion as an example. I'll explain briefly what it does and then what else it can be expected to do with just the addition of tera. By extension, this should put into perspective the loss of flexibility in case of tera ban, as those roles/qualities specifically have to be then fulfilled by teammates, or not and just be accepted as shortcomings of the team. The more of such shortcomings an average balance team has, the more matchup fishy the playstyle is inherently.


It beats clef, heatran; if spdef and carrying sludge bomb, beats hex pult, apple, cm sets of primarina, val, sylveon, hatterene; if carrying eq, also beats clod. If modest, it trades a lot of damage with anything that doesn't hit it for stab se damage. In general it spreads status and discourages water moves.

Tera fairy volcanion dropped most of the above matchups in favor of much better matchups against a bunch of rain mons - kingdra, wake, hsamu, specs palafin etc. The dropped matchups didn't appear in rain anyway (except sometimes primarina) so volcanion's original typing wasn't valuable. This was important in rain meta when one misprediction could cost you the volcanion (or any other water immune mon) and shortly after the game.

Most of the above mons don't have any place in stall, and both blissey and clodsire beat volcanion consistently. By choosing tera ghost in the builder you can (with support) actually break a wall in this matchup, at the expense of being vulnerable to umbreon afterwards. This can also patch up a weakness to idbp zama and steel birds, too, if you don't have another ghost/unaware/glowking.

This is just one mon - any one of the 6 mons in a team can tera and, if well prepped, set a more favorable game state; whereas with no tera the team could've just come short due to an unlucky matchup. I hope all this makes sense ... It seems to me that we're in agreement regarding the rest of your points, but please do let me know if anything is unclear.

 

[All Lice]

I'm looking into trying out this meta, any tips for running Palafin-Hero?

It's main thing is physical boomburst off a huge attack stat everything else is kinda malleable from there. Drain Punch gives sustain, Bulk Up gets you set up, Jet Punch is still valuable even off it's special attack (geez it has 106 special attack??) as a cleaning tool, Ice Beam hits pult which is the most common ghost in the tier, Taunt/Encore let's it function as a breaker, Flip Turn is a strong pivot still, and you could run it as a tera blast user though I'd advise against that tbh.
For items LO is good with Mixed sets, Silk Scarf if you just really want to click big boombursts, Boots gives you longevity, and lum allows you take the Twaves and Will Os.
Tera is normal if you want to be funny, ground/ghost if you wanna blast, and defensive if you want to be a sane individual.
Teammate-wise the usual offensive support mons are all fine with it (Webs, Glimm, Screens, and Suicide Lead Treads) and it finds it's home on more aggressive structures. The issue here being it's gimmick which necessitates you give up at least some momentum to get it going so hardline HO doesn't look to be it's best place. An interesting idea is the Palafin + DNite core to put pressure on your opponent's normal resists and ghosts so one of them (ideally Dnite) can sweep.

 

[competitiveZero]

With the first bans out of the way I think I should go more into detail about smth I think is unbalanced in the current meta
basically all pokemon can use this item and with some of the high BP moves that many pokemon gain access to alongside their set up moves, I truly think that continuing to have this item has has an exclusively negative affect on the tier.
Not really sure how we'd go about dealing with this issue atm, just an observation of mine

As far as pokemon everything seems relatively balanced atm