Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Anty]

That's spectacularly inaccurate. It absolutely requires a cleric, hazards removal and a co- wall to be effective. The other S- rank mons are far more self-reliant and Mega Venusaur looks terribly out of place there.

By saying this your implying that to function well, every wall needs a cleric. Msaur doesnt, burn can be annoying, but you dont need to add a cleric if your going to use megasaur. This argument can be used for anything, e.g. 'mega lucario shouldnt be s-rank because you need a cleric because burn ruins physical sets'. Venusaur is immune to poison and (mostly) sleep.

With hazards:
1. It doesnt need hazard removal, its not weak to rocks and most competant teams can stop spikes. You dont run a spinner because you have a msaur on your team.
2. A lot of teams have hazard removal anyway.

With yours, and most anti-saur comments, the arguments are pathetic. You can say that with anyone.

e.g. 'Genesect absolutely requires a cleric, it could get paralysed or burnt, hazards removal, it constantly switches in and out, to be effective.' (im not hatin' on sect)

Also if your making and argument, back up your points.

 

[Antonius the Great]

I agree about Deoxys-S but I can't really make an argument other than how much paralysis cripples it, so things like Klefki and Togekiss are just doom for it.

I'd also nominate Umbreon for B Rank because of what you said. Psychic isn't too prominent as an attack type, but he's immune to it and has STAB against things like Espeon and Alakazam. He can use Foul Play or Payback, both doing a ton of damage. It gets reliable recovery in Moonlight and Wish, and it can pass some pretty hefty Wishes. Dark lost a little bit of power this gen thanks to Fairy, but Umbreon is still good and is very difficult to break through. Here are some calcs:

252 SpA Gengar Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 158-186 (40.1 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Launcher Mega Blastoise Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 178-210 (45.1 - 53.2%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

There are more things it can wall but these calcs alone show how much of an amazing wall Umbreon is, along with the ability to be an even more amazing cleric. Moonlight also lets him survive even more while being able to hit back with Payback or Foul Play against things like Gengar. If not for Fairy he'd be a complete A-Rank in my opinion but Fairy does limit his power a lot and he needs more support than he did last gen.

 

[Magnemite]

Shocked to see mega-venasaur up in S... I was just thinking how underrated and good he is but wow did not expect that... I was about to click here and argue him to B/A rank expecting to see him at C. I'll play with him more.

Otherwise, wtf is Deoxys-S doing at S rank? Defog is so easy; those who do not want hazards (talonflame) will easily get hazards out with latias or skarm or crobat (or whoever, there's a very good distribution). Also, priority in this meta has increased in importance and power, making speed less important. and LO 4 attacks? Can't be the reason he's S. I don't see Deo-S having very many niches, someone pls explain.

Also I argue that umbreon should be in the A tier. The special bulk is insane, countering stuff like latios like its nothing. Foul play is probably the best move in the game, laughing off those SD aegislash. Wish+heal bell support is vital, and aids this new meta with bulky offense. Getting a wish to rotomW, conkeldurr, or aegislash is a joke. This pokemon is better than mandibuzz in everything except taunt and physically defensive typing. Lack of SR weakness is awesome too, relying less on getting your defog poke out.

Umbreon is not getting an OU analysis, so it is not eligible to be ranked. It is not at all better than Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz has Defog, Taunt, and no Fighting or Bug weaknesses, which lets it actually wall Aegislash. The Bug weakness is very crippling when Genesect... well, exists.

Try Defogging against Deoxys-S. Here's a hint, you can't, because it always carries Taunt. It's hard to Defog against Deo-S hyper offense teams because you either get set up on by a dangerous sweeper or you give the Bisharp that switches in the equivalent of a free Swords Dance. Defog hurts it a little bit, but it's more complicated than "lol, Defog exists, so it sucks".

 

[Rotosect]

By saying this your implying that to function well, every wall needs a cleric. Msaur doesnt, burn can be annoying, but you dont need to add a cleric if your going to use megasaur. This argument can be used for anything, e.g. 'mega lucario shouldnt be s-rank because you need a cleric because burn ruins physical sets'. Venusaur is immune to poison and (mostly) sleep.

With hazards:
1. It doesnt need hazard removal, its not weak to rocks and most competant teams can stop spikes. You dont run a spinner because you have a msaur on your team.
2. A lot of teams have hazard removal anyway.

With yours, and most anti-saur comments, the arguments are pathetic. You can say that with anyone.

e.g. 'Genesect absolutely requires a cleric, it could get paralysed or burnt, hazards removal, it constantly switches in and out, to be effective.' (im not hatin' on sect)

Also if your making and argument, back up your points.

Plenty of arguments against Megasaur's current placement have already been made several pages back so please go back and read them...
Also what's with the Megasaur's defense force? I've never quite seen anything like this when defending a pokemon's placement.

 

[Ajwf]

It's because Mega Venu is completely underrated and people are making stupid arguments such as "It gets burned a lot!" which is completely irrelevant given giga drain is probably the best attack it has. The walling capabilities and neutral/resistance coverage is amazing and yet people still doubt that it S-rank. Not to mention the move pool, recovery and incredible combination of bulk and attack. Most of the people arguing against it probably haven't used mega venusaur to see the defensive force it puts out.

And I could ask the same thing, Rotosect, what's with all the offense taken to it's current placement?

 

[I2edShift]

I'd like to nominate Salamence as C

Salamence is outclassed by Dnite and megazard X as a dragon dance sweeper.

Being out-classed does not instantly make a Pokemon less viable in OU. Salamence doesn't cost a mega evolution or have the same set of weaknesses that Charizard does. It also has different options & uses than Dragonite.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

It's still completely viable in OU, if not widely used due to new additions.

Salamence for B

 

[Monte Cristo]

I'd like to nominate salamence as C


Salamence is outclassed by Dnite and megazard X as a dragon dance sweeper.

Salamence is a solid B/B-/B+ rank imo. Not because of DD, fuck DD, that shit lost it's niche a long time ago, I'm talking about the one and only WISH MENCE and MIXMENCE.

MixMence has been in the game for years, it breaks through so much stall and offense teams every time a new variation of it is introduced. MixMence may have to deal with fairies, but the raw amount of hard switching this causes for any team lacking sylv/florges is insane, but it does have 4MSS, it does want to have
EQ/DD/FB/Hydro/Outrage/DragonClaw/Brick Break/Aqua Tail all at the same time, but the fact that it can have so much variations and combinations of it is the scary part about mix mence as once you see the intimidate or draco, you don't know whats coming next from mixmence.

Also, let me say this, wishmence is old, and it's not available with moxie, same with Hpump for mixmence, just gotta warn ya. Anyways, Wishmence(the bold/impish variant from RSE, yes) makes for an amazing pivot into things like Mega Luke (+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 176-208 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ----- -1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 79-93 (20 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery) due to it's very surprisingly good defensive typing and bulk (with intimidate).(mamos -1 ice shard can't even 2HKO! -1 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 160-192 (40.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) This set honestly can just shit on many things trying to sweep physically and stop them dead in their tracks, overall, FUCK BULKY DNITE :]. That's all I have to say, bulky dnite is less bulky after multiscale breaks and intimidate is factored in, so bulky dnite can live more 1 shots than mence, yes, but mence is better over the course of time, that and it's 95 base HP wishes rival sylveons! overall wishmence is such a great wall in this meta, it can barely get 2HKOd by some dragon claws!
-1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Nominating Staraptor for B/B+/A rank imo
Staraptor has always been great in the past(D rank PK gaming? really? REALLY?), there's no question about that brave bird. Now, before I get posts saying 'wtf talonflame y u no' or some crap, I want to explain this nomm. Staraptor has the strongest flying move and normal move in OU in the form of STAB and reckless, and it has CLOSE COMBAT for coverage to boot. That and, 100 base speed is not at all bad, especially when your best sets are scarfed(and arguably banded but I'm trusting honko's presets that scarf is the best out of the 2 since I can't decide), I mean, that was mega kangas speed tier, after all. This thing also works really well when paired with talonflame to WRECK talons counters such as ttar, rotom-w and heatran with double edge and CC respectively:
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 456-540 (112.8 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 236-278 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
etc. (only included the band set for rotom-w to show how strong it can)
And it's good alone, too. This thing has little to 0 counters in the form of: skarmory, impish bronzong, defensive jirachi. That's it. Seriously.
The damage output on this thing is insane (252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery!) and can't be rivaled by much of anything in the OU metagame, B or B+ imo but you can stretch it for A.

Nominating Mega-Abomasnow for B+ Rank imo
Mega abomasnow is seriously underrated, it gave abomasnow all it needed to abuse it's uniqueness: good stats, well, except for speed, LOL. nah, in all seriousness, mega abomasnow is great in play, it has so much useful resistances from grass, water, electric, ground etc. to- ah fuck it at this point I may as well just quote my own post from another thread:
"abomasnow rips through so many stall cores & pokemon and offensive pokemon like gastro, zygarde, garchomp, rotom-w, mega gyara, bold mega saur etc. Mega abomasnow's power is really underrated, combined with it's coverage and surprisingly nice STABs make it such a threat. The mega mechanics actually help it also it gets to hit off a base 60 speed first turn. It's blizzard is one of the hardest hitting ice moves available in OU, combined with bulky waters being hit hard by it's secondary STAB make it very hard to wall (steels can't switch in much barring aegis due to focus miss). In addition to it's offensive prowess, it hard a very surprisingly good defensive typing resisting all water, electric, grass, ground, and more while being nicely neutral to ice/ice beam (which is very important to walling waters and mamo) while unfortunately being very weak to fighting and fire however this is still a largely surprisingly good typing. letting it pivot into many attackers like starmie, politoed, mamoswine, greninja, zygarde, garchomp, rotom-w etc. . Overall mega aboma is definately a high reward pokemon when played right and is way too underrated"
Calcs:
252 Atk Garchomp Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 127-150 (33 - 39%) -- 99.9% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Zygarde Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 157-186 (40.8 - 48.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 136-161 (35.4 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 77-90 (20 - 23.4%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow in Rain: 165-195 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Surf vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow in Rain: 135-160 (35.1 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow in Rain: 120-142 (31.2 - 36.9%) -- 79.9% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 156-185 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 140-165 (36.4 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 95-113 (24.7 - 29.4%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 220-259 (57.2 - 67.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 147-174 (38.2 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Abomasnow: 129-152 (33.5 - 39.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 122-144 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 88.5% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Abomasnow: 78-92 (20.3 - 23.9%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
etc.

 

[114]

Umbreon is not getting an OU analysis, so it is not eligible to be ranked. It is not at all better than Mandibuzz. Mandibuzz has Defog, Taunt, and no Fighting or Bug weaknesses, which lets it actually wall Aegislash. The Bug weakness is very crippling when Genesect... well, exists.

Try Defogging against Deoxys-S. Here's a hint, you can't, because it always carries Taunt. It's hard to Defog against Deo-S hyper offense teams because you either get set up on by a dangerous sweeper or you give the Bisharp that switches in the equivalent of a free Swords Dance. Defog hurts it a little bit, but it's more complicated than "lol, Defog exists, so it sucks".

Genesect gets KO'd when it tries to switch into umbreon (with rocks). Scizor gets hounded too, and can't set up SD. In fact nothing can set up SD, and nearly nothing special can get past umbreon.

Umbreon deserves an OU analysis. It does many roles better than mandibuzz.

Also Darmanitan deserves a good spot in B+. LO set is perfect partner to talonflame endgame sweep. Very few viable switch ins. Slowbro is the best

 

[Sylveon]

Tyranitar is without a shadow of a doubt S rank. It's actually better this gen then it was last gen and last gen it was S rank. The weather nerf didn't really affect him at all because even last gen sandstream was really only used to counter other weather so like I said Tyranitar didn't get affected by weather nerf at all in fact it helped in some ways because your team mate Pokemon won't be taking damage as much as when weather was infinite. Tyranitar has always been a great stand alone Pokemon but this gen it got so much better. If you go to the Tyranitar thread you will see just how bulky this monster is with Assault Vest. Tyranitar checks/counters a ton of threats: Alakazam, Charizard Y, Starmie, L@tias, Talonflame, Volcarona, Gengar, Espeon, Xatu, etc. Tyranitar is really easy to fit in to pretty much any team. It's really just that good. It fits S ranks description of being very versatile because it can pull off a variety of sets effectively. Band, AV, Stealth Rock Tank, Scarf, Mixed Lure, DD, Weakness Policy. Mega Tyranitar is also amazing. The DD set is very easy to set up as Tyranitar is hard to 2HKO without a fighting type move. In a metagame with Ghost, Dark, Normal and Flying priority everywhere, Mega Tyranitar really shines and people should really use it more. It also survives Aqua Jet from Azumaril, Bullet Punch from Band Scizor even at 75% health. Let's not forget Tyranitar's ability allows it to break sashes and often turn 3HKO's into 2HKO's or 2HKO's into OHKO. Although I can understand why Tyranitar hasn't had much discussion because everyone's focused on the new mons but Tyranitar really deserves S rank. Also Steel typing got nerfed this gen which means Tyranitar is even deadlier this time around spamming Crunch and Pursuit. Tyranitar does have it's flaws as with any other Pokemon but they are thoroughly mitigated by it's substantial strengths.

Any discussion on this? Seems like this got ignored.

 

[effyouzion]

Nominating Ampharos for B rank.

We need to start some discussion.

I think he should be B+ or even A. The bulky pivot set (dpulse + volt switch + rest talk with a defensive spread) is the MVP of my volt turn team sitting in the top 50 of the ladder. There is no other pokemon in the game with such a slow, powerful volt switch, and his typing is amazing defensively.

 

[rachet67]

Nominating Staraptor for B/B+/A rank imo
Staraptor has always been great in the past(D rank PK gaming? really? REALLY?), there's no question about that brave bird. Now, before I get posts saying 'wtf talonflame y u no' or some crap, I want to explain this nomm. Staraptor has the strongest flying move and normal move in OU in the form of STAB and reckless, and it has CLOSE COMBAT for coverage to boot. That and, 100 base speed is not at all bad, especially when your best sets are scarfed(and arguably banded but I'm trusting honko's presets that scarf is the best out of the 2 since I can't decide), I mean, that was mega kangas speed tier, after all. This thing also works really well when paired with talonflame to WRECK talons counters such as ttar, rotom-w and heatran with double edge and CC respectively:
252 Atk Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 153-181 (50.3 - 59.5%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 229-270 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 456-540 (112.8 - 133.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Tyranitar: 348-412 (86.1 - 101.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Staraptor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 236-278 (61.1 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
etc. (only included the band set for rotom-w to show how strong it can)
And it's good alone, too. This thing has little to 0 counters in the form of: skarmory, impish bronzong, defensive jirachi. That's it. Seriously.
The damage output on this thing is insane (252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jirachi: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery!) and can't be rivaled by much of anything in the OU metagame, B or B+ imo but you can stretch it for A.

Staraptor has slightly underwhelming speed, which is compounded by its extreme frailty. Its attack (120), while still pretty good is no longer as game breaking as it used to be, especially on a poke that can't take any hit. Additionally it doesn't get stab on close combat, and tons of pokemon (old ones such as skarmory, gliscor, landorus and new ones such as aegislash) can completely wall it. This is not to mention that pretty much any faster pokemon can easily revenge kill it, or set up on it.

Staraptor was D rank last generation and absolutely nothing has made its life any easier. Staraptor should be at the most D rank or possibly not even ranked at all. At this point its really much more a liability than its worth, and there's really no reason to use it in OU at all anymore.

 

[Monte Cristo]

Staraptor has slightly underwhelming speed, which is compounded by its extreme frailty. Its attack (120), whiles still fantastic is no longer as amazing as it used to be. Additionally it doesn't get stab on close combat, and tons of pokemon (old ones such as skarmory, gliscor, landorus and new ones such as aegislash) can completely wall it. This is not to mention that pretty much any faster pokemon can easily revenge kill it, or set up on it. Staraptor was D rank last generation and absolutely nothing has made its life any easier. Staraptor should be at the most D rank, and at this point, I would even say that it doesn't have a niche in OU at all.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Offensive niche: check. partially out preformed: barely check.

Everything has counters, no shit, and the fact that your not getting STAB on a COVERAGE move, is LOGICAL, it's a coverage move, not a STAB move, it was a STAB move, staraptor wouldn't run double edge. Which is legitimately a good move for hitting any cheeky electrics. Also, no gliscor doesn't wall it, I'm tired of people saying gliscor walls everything. 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and it takes 48% w/o SR from the scarf jolly variant.

 

[rachet67]

Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outperformed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

Offensive niche: check. partially out preformed: barely check.

Everything has counters, no shit, and the fact that your not getting STAB on a COVERAGE move, is LOGICAL, it's a coverage move, not a STAB move, it was a STAB move, staraptor wouldn't run double edge. Which is legitimately a good move for hitting any cheeky electrics. Also, no gliscor doesn't wall it, I'm tired of people saying gliscor walls everything. 252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 216-255 (61 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and it takes 48% w/o SR from the scarf jolly variant.

The gliscor calculation is wrong, as gliscor will have 2 turns of toxic orb healing w/ protect. Thats essentially 4 turns of leftovers healing.

Just because it has powerful physical flying stab that can't be replicated by other OU pokes doesn't make it "B" material or even OU material, in any sense. Ramphardos has the strongest stone edge in the game and can destroy many physical walls. Its attacking power is unmatched (165). However, there's a reason its NU. Anything that outspeeds can OHKO it as it is extremely frail, and is forced to switch out on pretty much anything. Obviously, Staraptor is better than Ramphardos, but the same basic problems that plague Ramphardos, make Staraptor pretty unsuitable for OU.

Staraptor is walled by extremely common pokemon, is set up bait for aegislash, one of the most dangerous sweepers right now, and literally any faster pokemon can kill it. Because of this it is extremely hard to sweep any well built team, and is a liability against extremely common pokes such as aegislash.

Again, I'll state this. Staraptor was D rank last gen. With the introduction of aegislash, what makes Staraptor any more viable than last generation?

 

[Adonzo]

I'd actually say the biggest knock against Staraptor this gen is the fact that Mega Pinsir exists. Doesn't hit quite as hard and has a worse SR weakness, but has better bulk, Swords Dance, priority, and doesn't rely on recoil moves. For a hard-hitting physical Flying-type, Pinsir completely outperforms Staraptor.

 

[Ixeilon]

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 226-267 (63.8 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 205-243 (57.9 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 168-198 (41.5 - 49%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 126-148 (41.4 - 48.6%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 174-205 (45 - 53.1%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery


Gliscor is not switching into that, it will only outstall if it comes in healthy and already poisoned. You do not get Poison Heal recovery the turn it gets poisoned by Toxic Orb.

Aegislash counters Raptor completely though. *shrug*

That being said Raptor is incredibly powerful, and should have Band most, if not all the time, since Talonflame defeats the purpose of Scarf Raptor.

Does not feel Raptor warrants D rank.

 

[Nonary Game]

Nominating Blastoise (Mega) to B tier.

79/120/115 is some respectable bulk, letting it tank hits fairly well with minor investment. Pure water typing means he can take hits from some of the harder hitters of the format, notably Talonflame and Aegislash, and KO them back with a water attack/Dark Pulse, respectively.

His movepool is nothing to really scoff at either. Rapid Spin and Dark Pulse off 135 base Special Attack makes him one of the stronger spinners around by letting him OHKO OR 2HKO nearly every ghost running rampant, letting mons like Charizard and Volcarona get in safely. Even outside that, he has some absurd coverage, comprising of various water-type moves, Aura Sphere, Dark Pulse, and Ice Beam, allowing him to cut through most things that aren't fairy. Mega Launcher even boosts aura and pulse moves, making Aqua Pulse an attractive option for the random confusion chance.

If you need an offensive spinner or a solid counter to Talonflame, this guy won't dissapoint.

It's not all perfect though. 83 base speed is fairly low even if it does outspeed a few key mons, and Rapid Spin does mean losing coverage against either dragons/mega venusaur or Ferrothorn/Tyranitar, depending on the set. He can play a good support role in any case and with a good partner can do some work.

 

[Magcargo]

Salamence is a solid B/B-/B+ rank imo. Not because of DD, fuck DD, that shit lost it's niche a long time ago, I'm talking about the one and only WISH MENCE and MIXMENCE.

MixMence has been in the game for years, it breaks through so much stall and offense teams every time a new variation of it is introduced. MixMence may have to deal with fairies, but the raw amount of hard switching this causes for any team lacking sylv/florges is insane, but it does have 4MSS, it does want to have
EQ/DD/FB/Hydro/Outrage/DragonClaw/Brick Break/Aqua Tail all at the same time, but the fact that it can have so much variations and combinations of it is the scary part about mix mence as once you see the intimidate or draco, you don't know whats coming next from mixmence.

Also, let me say this, wishmence is old, and it's not available with moxie, same with Hpump for mixmence, just gotta warn ya. Anyways, Wishmence(the bold/impish variant from RSE, yes) makes for an amazing pivot into things like Mega Luke (+1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 176-208 (44.6 - 52.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery ----- -1 252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 79-93 (20 - 23.6%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery) due to it's very surprisingly good defensive typing and bulk (with intimidate).(mamos -1 ice shard can't even 2HKO! -1 252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 160-192 (40.6 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery) This set honestly can just shit on many things trying to sweep physically and stop them dead in their tracks, overall, FUCK BULKY DNITE :]. That's all I have to say, bulky dnite is less bulky after multiscale breaks and intimidate is factored in, so bulky dnite can live more 1 shots than mence, yes, but mence is better over the course of time, that and it's 95 base HP wishes rival sylveons! overall wishmence is such a great wall in this meta, it can barely get 2HKOd by some dragon claws!
-1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Salamence: 164-194 (41.6 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

I don't think that Mixmence is really that good due to the fact that Kyurem-B and Mega Garchomp exist. Kyurem-B has even better attacking stats and arguably better movepool, along with excellent bulk and several specially based resistances. Although Mega Garchomp requires you to use your Mega Slot, it has a much better typing for a wallbreaker, gets its power boosted in the sand and does an even better job at luring the foe's walls due to its mediocre special attack stat in its base form. There are plenty of other wallbreakers I haven't mentioned, such as Charizard X, Charizard Y, Aegislash, Mega Lucario, and Landorus-I that are much better at wallbreaking than Salamence. I can't really comment on Wishmence since I have never seen or used it.

I think that either C+ or B- Rank would be a good place for salamence. The introduction of fairies makes it even harder for it to sweep and Wallbreak this gen, and there isn't really much of a reason to use it over more competent Pokemon, such as Dragonite, Charizard X, and Kyurem-B.

 

[Calm_Mind_Latias]

Is Keldeo really a class A. I would think that Greninja would have a higher relative status (they are both listed as class A) to it due to its higher speed tier and usually better coverage moves (as Greninja isn't walled by Jellicent and Trevenant), and Keldeo's Fighting STAB has gotten less useful as a wall breaking tool because some teams use Fairies as Clerics.

 

[Jayd]

Nominating Emboar for C+ rank.

It faces overwhelming competition from above and suffers terribly from its low speed and bland defenses, but it has the power, typing, and movepool to be an effective threat in the standard metagame in the hands of a competant player.

Emboar's Fire/Fighting offensive STAB has great coverage and can scare out a decent portion of the metagame while punishing almost any switch-in with the right movepool and prediction. With the addition of Sucker Punch in this generation he can KO fast Psychic and Ghost types before they hurt him, and can give Pokemon - especially switch-ins - a clean one-two punch (say, Flare Blitz on the switch, followed by priority SP). This can be extremely hard, or impossible to deal with in the right game conditions. Emboar also has helpful defensive typing that shuts down threats like Genesect, Scizor, Bisharp, and so on, making it more than feasible to get on the field to do its work.

Furthermore, Emboar distinguishes itself from similar Pokemon that usually outclass it such as Conkeldurr and Machamp by its ability to Yawn and Will-O-Wisp switches. This ability critically reduced the number of Pokemon which can be considered a true counter, as many of them, like Gliscor (not yet poisoned), Dragons, and Landorus are crippled by Will-O-Wisp and everything else gets seriously pressured by Yawn, to an extent that can easily be game-changing. Basically this means that, in true wallbreaking fashion, switching into Emboar is almost never a risk-free affair. There is also the fact that it can feasibly run several good special attacks from its respectable base 100 stat.

Everything considered, I think Emboar leads the way (and therefore deserves a +) in the criteria for C-rank: in the right conditions and in the right hands it can dole out effective punishment in the OU environment, but it suffers from tremendous drawbacks in its stats that prevent it from carrying out this role consistently.

 

[Josh Morales]

Nominating Emboar for C+ rank.

It faces overwhelming competition from above and suffers terribly from its low speed and bland defenses, but it has the power, typing, and movepool to be an effective threat in the standard metagame in the hands of a competant player.

Emboar's Fire/Fighting offensive STAB has great coverage and can scare out a decent portion of the metagame while punishing almost any switch-in with the right movepool and prediction. With the addition of Sucker Punch in this generation he can KO fast Psychic and Ghost types before they hurt him, and can give Pokemon - especially switch-ins - a clean one-two punch (say, Flare Blitz on the switch, followed by priority SP). This can be extremely hard, or impossible to deal with in the right game conditions. Emboar also has helpful defensive typing that shuts down threats like Genesect, Scizor, Bisharp, and so on, making it more than feasible to get on the field to do its work.

Furthermore, Emboar distinguishes itself from similar Pokemon that usually outclass it such as Conkeldurr and Machamp by its ability to Yawn and Will-O-Wisp switches. This ability critically reduced the number of Pokemon which can be considered a true counter, as many of them, like Gliscor (not yet poisoned), Dragons, and Landorus are crippled by Will-O-Wisp and everything else gets seriously pressured by Yawn, to an extent that can easily be game-changing. Basically this means that, in true wallbreaking fashion, switching into Emboar is almost never a risk-free affair. There is also the fact that it can feasibly run several good special attacks from its respectable base 100 stat.

Everything considered, I think Emboar leads the way (and therefore deserves a +) in the criteria for C-rank: in the right conditions and in the right hands it can dole out effective punishment in the OU environment, but it suffers from tremendous drawbacks in its stats that prevent it from carrying out this role consistently.

Emboar is not getting an OU analysis and it stayed firmly in RU last gen and I see no way it can redeem itself and bring it up to any higher tiers.

 

[Jayd]

Emboar is not getting an OU analysis and it stayed firmly in NU last gen and I see no way it can redeem itself and bring it up to any higher tiers.

What's your point? If Malamar and Gourgeist-Small deserve a ranking on this scale, why shouldn't Emboar?

 

[Josh Morales]

What's your point? If Malamar and Gourgeist-Small deserve a ranking on this scale, why shouldn't Emboar?

They actually have OU analyses because they can perform a very small niche in OU. There's no good reason to use Emboar.

 

[Jayd]

They actually have OU analyses because they can perform a viable, small niche in OU. There's no good reason to use Emboar.

Good job not acknowledging any of the arguments I made in my post. I suggest you re-read the rules of this thread.

 

[Josh Morales]

Good job not acknowledging any of the arguments I made in my post. I suggest you re-read the rules of this thread.

I skimmed it the first time and am still unimpressed.

 

[RotomPoison]

All those Salamences made it look like the same guy posted 4 times in a row. But here:

Emboar is not getting an OU analysis and it stayed firmly in NU last gen and I see no way it can redeem itself and bring it up to any higher tiers.

A tier placement in 1 gen does not affect the next directly, many changes can (and have) happened.

They actually have OU analyses because they can perform a very small niche in OU. There's no good reason to use Emboar.

An analysis does not mean anything. A Pokemon can be viable and not have an analysis. A Pokemon can also not be viable and have an analysis.

(Also, I don't see Emboar doing well at all)