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np: ORAS UU Stage 3 - New Gods
- Thread starter Sam
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[19:30] <@Sam> that's why we're retesting Victini, as a way to nerf Scald
[19:30] <@Sam> it's a physical attacker immune to burn :O
In all honesty I'm not quite sure Victini is broken yet, but I think it'll be yet another factor contributing to the polarization of playstyles in UU, alongside Gatr and Mamoswine. All of these guys really hurt balance and it will have a tough time adapting. It's hard not to go all-out offense of really stally with them around IMO, although that might be a good thing considering how balance-centric the tier is. Looking forward to laddering!
Ok so it is time for my official Victini pre-reqs post...
First off, let's go over this thing's wide af movepool...
Physical: (STAB in Italics) V-Create, Bolt Strike, U-turn, Zen Headbutt
Special: (STAB in Italics) Blue Flare, Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Psychic, Psyshock, Thunder, Glaciate, Solar Beam, Stored Power
Status: Sunny Day, Trick Room, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, Will-O-Wisp
While it doesn't look to have a "ton" of moves, it has everything it needs. It has two solid ways to get around would-be checks and counters with Thunder / Bolt Strike hitting all bulky Waters not named Swampert, who gets bopped by Grass Knot. Even Rock-types, such as Rhyperior and Tyrantrum, are not going to like taking a Grass Knot or Glaciate respectively. It can effectively run a ton of sets such as Life Orb, Choice Band, Weakness Policy + Trick Room, and Choice Scarf (That is also the order in viability of its sets imo as well). While a lot has changed with things such as FatMence, Tyrantrum, and even Dragalge and the fact that it was banned pre-ORAS means this meta may have settled enough for Victini to be allowed back in UU. With metagame trends such as Pursuit Mega Aeroactyl and Krookodile, Victini may actually fare "better" in this meta so that it can stay around. Also a pretty cool calc...
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mandibuzz, a fairly new Pokemon, may be able to actually tank a V-Create if Physically Defensive or if given some defensive investment.
Next up, let's look at its typing...
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, Water
Resistances: Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Steel
Now while Victini has a slew of common weaknesses (Ground, Rock, Water, Dark) it usually can tank a hit thanks to its across the board base 100 stats. Its true assets come with its resistances. Have a resist to Fairy, Fighting, Grass, and Psychic means it can tank a lot of hits from common walls / offensive mons and fire back a base 180 BP STAB move in V-Create.
Lastly, the power of Victini...
While base 100 stats across the board may seem underwhelming with things like Salamence, who has a base 130 Attack, or Azelf, who has a base 125 Special Attack, it makes up for it by having high BP moves with STAB V-Create, Thunder, Bolt Strike, and so on. Also with its movepool and its high power moves, it can effectively go mixed a lot better than say Azelf because it is also backed by amazing bulk even with a hindering nature.
As of right now, I am not too sure about Victini coming back but maybe that is just my insecurities of the last time it was here and there has been enough changes to maybe allow it to stay around this time.
First off, let's go over this thing's wide af movepool...
Physical: (STAB in Italics) V-Create, Bolt Strike, U-turn, Zen Headbutt
Special: (STAB in Italics) Blue Flare, Energy Ball, Grass Knot, Focus Blast, Psychic, Psyshock, Thunder, Glaciate, Solar Beam, Stored Power
Status: Sunny Day, Trick Room, Taunt, Thunder Wave, Trick, Will-O-Wisp
While it doesn't look to have a "ton" of moves, it has everything it needs. It has two solid ways to get around would-be checks and counters with Thunder / Bolt Strike hitting all bulky Waters not named Swampert, who gets bopped by Grass Knot. Even Rock-types, such as Rhyperior and Tyrantrum, are not going to like taking a Grass Knot or Glaciate respectively. It can effectively run a ton of sets such as Life Orb, Choice Band, Weakness Policy + Trick Room, and Choice Scarf (That is also the order in viability of its sets imo as well). While a lot has changed with things such as FatMence, Tyrantrum, and even Dragalge and the fact that it was banned pre-ORAS means this meta may have settled enough for Victini to be allowed back in UU. With metagame trends such as Pursuit Mega Aeroactyl and Krookodile, Victini may actually fare "better" in this meta so that it can stay around. Also a pretty cool calc...
0- Atk Mandibuzz Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 260-308 (76.2 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Mandibuzz, a fairly new Pokemon, may be able to actually tank a V-Create if Physically Defensive or if given some defensive investment.
Next up, let's look at its typing...
Weaknesses: Dark, Ghost, Ground, Rock, Water
Resistances: Fairy, Fighting, Fire, Grass, Ice, Psychic, Steel
Now while Victini has a slew of common weaknesses (Ground, Rock, Water, Dark) it usually can tank a hit thanks to its across the board base 100 stats. Its true assets come with its resistances. Have a resist to Fairy, Fighting, Grass, and Psychic means it can tank a lot of hits from common walls / offensive mons and fire back a base 180 BP STAB move in V-Create.
Lastly, the power of Victini...
While base 100 stats across the board may seem underwhelming with things like Salamence, who has a base 130 Attack, or Azelf, who has a base 125 Special Attack, it makes up for it by having high BP moves with STAB V-Create, Thunder, Bolt Strike, and so on. Also with its movepool and its high power moves, it can effectively go mixed a lot better than say Azelf because it is also backed by amazing bulk even with a hindering nature.
As of right now, I am not too sure about Victini coming back but maybe that is just my insecurities of the last time it was here and there has been enough changes to maybe allow it to stay around this time.
How can Victini even abuse Stored Power? The only set up move I see is Power Up Punch and Psych Up.
A thing I noticed is that it learns Dazzling Gleam to check Hydreigon, Brick Break and Searing Shot which is basicly a stronger Lava Plume. But I guess Blue Flare's higher base power and already 20 % burn rate make it already superiour but maybe it punishes switches though it harder regardless the bulk.
A thing I noticed is that it learns Dazzling Gleam to check Hydreigon, Brick Break and Searing Shot which is basicly a stronger Lava Plume. But I guess Blue Flare's higher base power and already 20 % burn rate make it already superiour but maybe it punishes switches though it harder regardless the bulk.
Back in BW I never really liked Victini, because it basically forced everybody to run a bulky Water or Houndoom just to eat its V-Create. (And even then, it had U-Turn.)
I wasn't sad to see it go, and I sure as hell don't want to see it back.
I wasn't sad to see it go, and I sure as hell don't want to see it back.
Arguably, I don't know why UU is testing Victini. If anything, Victini's reintroduction just adds more kindle to the fire that is UU's broken-ass metagame. If anything, I believe that we should suspect test/ban what people can deliberate to be the most centralizing aspect of the metagame and then reintroduce BL Pokemon as a response to metagame shifts.
tl;dr: Test feraligatr, then re-test other BL bullshizzles.
tl;dr: Test feraligatr, then re-test other BL bullshizzles.
The most centralizing Pokemon isn't Feraligatr, it's Mega Aerodactyl. Aero is FAR more versatile and can work on damn near any team, Feraligatr is pretty exclusively limited to Offense.
EDIT: To add to (and sorta counter) what Godsend said, Mamoswine and Mandibuzz actually increase how balanced the tier is. Balance is tremendously strong in UU, so Mamoswine picking apart balanced cores so effortlessly makes offense and stall better by its presence. On the other hand, Mandibuzz is a huge boon for balance between its great bulk, fantastic support movepool, and it not at all being set-up bait. It doesn't have the stones to work on a full stall team, and Aerodactyl and Crobat are superior Defoggers for Offense, but Overcoat and STAB Foul Play + Brave Bird give it just enough oomph to help out Balance.
EDIT: To add to (and sorta counter) what Godsend said, Mamoswine and Mandibuzz actually increase how balanced the tier is. Balance is tremendously strong in UU, so Mamoswine picking apart balanced cores so effortlessly makes offense and stall better by its presence. On the other hand, Mandibuzz is a huge boon for balance between its great bulk, fantastic support movepool, and it not at all being set-up bait. It doesn't have the stones to work on a full stall team, and Aerodactyl and Crobat are superior Defoggers for Offense, but Overcoat and STAB Foul Play + Brave Bird give it just enough oomph to help out Balance.
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And pretty much everyone else has agreed that, at least pre-drop (and moderately less post-drop) UU is hella balanced. idk what's so "broken ass" about the meta right now.
Ok so mamo need to go is hurt balance/stall/offense basically every playstyle theres not much to say bout this monster
Gallade finnaly is dropping down i dont think gallade is a UU mon at all should be RU, so is under the right way.
Mandibuzz this bird is such a pain in the ass, access to taunt, knock off, recovery, defog all those great moves in a support mon. i think no one in the UU tier can HKO Mandibuzz without boost ... I think Mandi is a great add to UU checking a lot of the meta, physical attacker gets murder by foul play and special attacker can be knock off while roosting stalling the damage with toxic so yeah really hard mon to take down
Gallade finnaly is dropping down i dont think gallade is a UU mon at all should be RU, so is under the right way.
Mandibuzz this bird is such a pain in the ass, access to taunt, knock off, recovery, defog all those great moves in a support mon. i think no one in the UU tier can HKO Mandibuzz without boost ... I think Mandi is a great add to UU checking a lot of the meta, physical attacker gets murder by foul play and special attacker can be knock off while roosting stalling the damage with toxic so yeah really hard mon to take down
M-Ampharos would like a word with you about Mandibuzz..
252+ SpA Mold Breaker Mega Ampharos Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 288-342 (68 - 80.8%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
as would Tyrantrum...
252 Atk Tyrantrum Head Smash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Mandibuzz: 324-384 (76.5 - 90.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
without LO, which is usually pretty common on Tyrantrum...
But, seriously though, you are right. Mandi is a bulky mon which is impossible with no boosts or a STAB SE to outright KO (unless they are physically defensive and you attack specially and vice-versa).
Mandi is a great, albeit annoying, addition to UU.
It'll go up soonish (day or so maybe), it's a little bit of work on our part and Hikari and I are busy beavers right now n_n
I feel like we should have suspected (and banned) M-Aero instead of bringing Victini back but whatevs...
Seriously, M-Aero renders an entire playstyle (HO) almost useless depending on its set! I think it screams broken more than Gatr and MPidg (tho I could see Pidg being broken if Aero leaves)
Seriously, M-Aero renders an entire playstyle (HO) almost useless depending on its set! I think it screams broken more than Gatr and MPidg (tho I could see Pidg being broken if Aero leaves)
HO is not useless even a bit, the top 2 in the ladder right now uses HO. Mega Aero can be played around by bulky waters, steels and almost anything that's physically defensive. It's not broken even a bit.
Aero has multiple checks on HO (the most popular HO team right now, made by YABO, utilizes megapert which is a great answer. tyrantrum and offensive cune are great answers as well.) Saying that aero is more broken than gatr or pidgeot is just simply not true; gatr can threaten to sweep any team, however prepared they may be, with its sheer power and choice of boosting moves to tear apart all kinds of defensive cores. Mega Pidgeot, while not hitting such an insane speed tier, has 100% accurate hurricanes with almost perfect coverage in Heat Wave, which means it only has a handful of switchins in the entire tier, several of which can be beaten by Work Up sets, not to mention with trapping support for Empoleon and Mega Ampharos. Mega Aero is a mon which doesn't possess either of those two abilities; unless it has Hone Claws (which is dropping in popularity as of late, probably in part because of Mamoswine), it can't threaten to sweep any kind of team from turn 1 like gatr can, and it doesn't have the sheer wallbreaking power that Mega Pidgeot does. The reason it's so good is because of its versatility and typing, allowing it to check a lot of offensive mons, with the ability to run a plethora of different moves. I see where you're coming from with the 'breaks offense' idea because it is true to an extent, but standard HO these days has adapted to the fact that mega aero has existed and used a number of different checks to it. I would argue that DD gatr is a bigger threat to HO these days than Aero is, because once DD gatr gets going against offense it is much, much harder to stop than aero is.
e: oops forgot to tag YABO
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Can you link me to this HO team by YABO? I've never used Mega Swampert and I'd like to see what the hubbub is about.
EDIT: Oh, I've totally seen that team. Even suggested he change Tyrantrum to Jolly. I'll have to try it.
Saying that Gatr can threaten to sweep any kind of team from turn 1 is pretty fallacious, there are too many excellent Water-resists in the tier for it to just sweep that easily. Dragon Dance IS pretty brick-shittingly terrifying for Offense to face, but there are a number of Pokemon like Kyurem that aren't OHKO'd by +1 Crunch or other coverage and can threaten to put it into easy revenge range by a Scarfer or priority, like Mienshao or Entei, or simply KO it outright. And until someone gives me some statistics otherwise, stall isn't THAT afraid of Feraligatr. The set that would give stall the most trouble, SubSD, simply doesn't see usage because it's not threatening to other team archetypes. Feraligatr has the misfortune of coming to usage in Bulky Water: The Tier, where virtually every good team has at least partially prepared for it incidentally, and to "properly" prepare for it isn't bending most teams over.
EDIT: Oh, I've totally seen that team. Even suggested he change Tyrantrum to Jolly. I'll have to try it.
Saying that Gatr can threaten to sweep any kind of team from turn 1 is pretty fallacious, there are too many excellent Water-resists in the tier for it to just sweep that easily. Dragon Dance IS pretty brick-shittingly terrifying for Offense to face, but there are a number of Pokemon like Kyurem that aren't OHKO'd by +1 Crunch or other coverage and can threaten to put it into easy revenge range by a Scarfer or priority, like Mienshao or Entei, or simply KO it outright. And until someone gives me some statistics otherwise, stall isn't THAT afraid of Feraligatr. The set that would give stall the most trouble, SubSD, simply doesn't see usage because it's not threatening to other team archetypes. Feraligatr has the misfortune of coming to usage in Bulky Water: The Tier, where virtually every good team has at least partially prepared for it incidentally, and to "properly" prepare for it isn't bending most teams over.
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I'm sure you guys are better than me and know your stuff so I'll trust your opinions, it's just that I've always had a hard time beating any M-Aero Balance/Bulky Offense with HO, I find that it gets a kill everytime it comes in and most of its partners can easily wall the very few 'mons Offense has for it (ex: Slowking, Empoleon, Rotom-H...)
Maybe it's just because I suck at teambuilding but I find it disgusting that after SR it gets a kill or two everytime it comes and the few solutions to it get walled by other partners it has, so the HO player finds himself trying to kill MAero as soon as possible (or else it gets to comeback later for more kills) OR predict a switch to a wall that takes nothing from whatever you threw at Aero, which makes you lose a turn and switch out cause you can't do much to said wall. (possibly taking LifeOrb and/or hazard damage which puts you on MAero range next time it comes in)
I dunno I'm just kinda ranting at this point but I've been really frustrated trying to play offense against this POS, I just feel like I'm at a huge disavantage against it...
Maybe it's just because I suck at teambuilding but I find it disgusting that after SR it gets a kill or two everytime it comes and the few solutions to it get walled by other partners it has, so the HO player finds himself trying to kill MAero as soon as possible (or else it gets to comeback later for more kills) OR predict a switch to a wall that takes nothing from whatever you threw at Aero, which makes you lose a turn and switch out cause you can't do much to said wall. (possibly taking LifeOrb and/or hazard damage which puts you on MAero range next time it comes in)
I dunno I'm just kinda ranting at this point but I've been really frustrated trying to play offense against this POS, I just feel like I'm at a huge disavantage against it...
Hit me up on PS! in UU room and I'll help you fix your team
Honestly I'm not happy to hear victini is being retested. Most of the checks to victini need to have SR off the field in order to have decent odds of safely switching in.
For instance, I consider these calcs to be pretty damning against M-Aero
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 209-246 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So M-aero, an otherwise great fire check, can't even safely get in against a resisted STAB unless they know victini is not the CB set (or if rocks aren't up), and that doesn't even take into account swapping into a bolt strike. Even if you do, while I do admit M-aero has better odds of winning the next turn of prediction (I consider the main moves to be made either victini gets KO'd by SE, Victini KO'd by switching out on pursuit after V-create, or M-aero uses pursuit and risks the KO because victini did not switch out), you still aren't in the most ideal of positions against victini, and that doesn't take into account LO/E-belt sets for victini.
I also dislike that certain things that should punish V-create spam...sort of don't. I mean yes, I'm aware feraligatr or salamence can come in after something gets KO'd and try and set up, or just KO victini outright, but the problem is your not losing power after using v-create. While it might be a stupid decision, there is nothing stopping the victini user from mindlessly continuing to spam V-create until victini is KO'd, as opposed to say, spamming draco meteor or other similar high BP moves. With SR up, even DD mence with intimidate for an ability is 2HKO'd by banded V-create, so you're not setting up more than a single DD even in the best of cicrumstances, which just isn't enough to sweep. Only tyrantrum truly punishes banded V-create spam...well that and kingdra, but kingdra has really fallen out of favour. Mega-pert comes close since it only needs 1 turn to set up, but adamant mega-pert will have taken enough damage to be revenged by a scarfer if the victini player stays in to spam V-create before rain is set.
To me, there just isn't enough deterrent not to be spamming v-create, and that's not even considering the banded set isn't the best set.
For instance, I consider these calcs to be pretty damning against M-Aero
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Aerodactyl Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 180-212 (52.7 - 62.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Aerodactyl: 209-246 (69.4 - 81.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
So M-aero, an otherwise great fire check, can't even safely get in against a resisted STAB unless they know victini is not the CB set (or if rocks aren't up), and that doesn't even take into account swapping into a bolt strike. Even if you do, while I do admit M-aero has better odds of winning the next turn of prediction (I consider the main moves to be made either victini gets KO'd by SE, Victini KO'd by switching out on pursuit after V-create, or M-aero uses pursuit and risks the KO because victini did not switch out), you still aren't in the most ideal of positions against victini, and that doesn't take into account LO/E-belt sets for victini.
I also dislike that certain things that should punish V-create spam...sort of don't. I mean yes, I'm aware feraligatr or salamence can come in after something gets KO'd and try and set up, or just KO victini outright, but the problem is your not losing power after using v-create. While it might be a stupid decision, there is nothing stopping the victini user from mindlessly continuing to spam V-create until victini is KO'd, as opposed to say, spamming draco meteor or other similar high BP moves. With SR up, even DD mence with intimidate for an ability is 2HKO'd by banded V-create, so you're not setting up more than a single DD even in the best of cicrumstances, which just isn't enough to sweep. Only tyrantrum truly punishes banded V-create spam...well that and kingdra, but kingdra has really fallen out of favour. Mega-pert comes close since it only needs 1 turn to set up, but adamant mega-pert will have taken enough damage to be revenged by a scarfer if the victini player stays in to spam V-create before rain is set.
To me, there just isn't enough deterrent not to be spamming v-create, and that's not even considering the banded set isn't the best set.
Saying gatr has trouble because bulky waters is bull shit since most gatrs both SD and DD run sub, even the ones with roar such as cune emp vap etc have to take a potential plus 2 crunch to the face, then have to pray that they don't roar them out into something that disallows their recovery like heliolisk.
Again, PLEASE provide some hard evidence that most Feraligatr run Substitute, because I have never encountered one that did. Feraligatr's coverage is way too precious to safely run Substitute normally. Feraligatr requires way more team support to properly sweep if he's running Substitute. EDIT: I think you missed my point, actually, so lemme clarify. I didn't say bulky waters gave Feraligatr trouble (though Suicune and Empoleon if Feraligatr is lacking Earthquake or Superpower can), I said that the tier is so prepared for Water-types that Feraligatr is often prepared for in some part without even thinking of him specifically, and to account for him specifically is not a large leap from there.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 273-322 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I typically used Victini as set-up fodder for Honchkrow. Even Jolly has an 87.5% chance to OHKO Victini staying in. That being said, that still relies on Victini nuking something with V-create in the first place. It's not a metagame I wish to revisit, but I suppose we'll have to make do anyway until the suspect test is over.
I'm not familiar with the Fatmence spread (though I was having a bitch of a time with one earlier, the fucker was taking like 30% from Facade off a Guts Heracross), but assuming 248/252+, you have a small chance to be 3HKO'd by V-create after Rocks. Considering you outspeed on the second turn and can then Roost stall or hit him with EQ or Dragon STAB, I'd say it's an excellent switch-in. Do be careful, though, Glaciate 2HKOs without investment or Rocks.
252+ Atk Life Orb Honchkrow Pursuit vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Victini: 273-322 (80 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I typically used Victini as set-up fodder for Honchkrow. Even Jolly has an 87.5% chance to OHKO Victini staying in. That being said, that still relies on Victini nuking something with V-create in the first place. It's not a metagame I wish to revisit, but I suppose we'll have to make do anyway until the suspect test is over.
I'm not familiar with the Fatmence spread (though I was having a bitch of a time with one earlier, the fucker was taking like 30% from Facade off a Guts Heracross), but assuming 248/252+, you have a small chance to be 3HKO'd by V-create after Rocks. Considering you outspeed on the second turn and can then Roost stall or hit him with EQ or Dragon STAB, I'd say it's an excellent switch-in. Do be careful, though, Glaciate 2HKOs without investment or Rocks.
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The spread is 248 HP / 232+ Def / 24 spe (to jump adamant Honchkrow).
On spreads that run Dragon Tail as their sole attack, I've found this Speed creep largely unnecessary, while on versions with EQ I usually creep a hair more to outspeed standard Tentacruel.
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