While all that sounds great on paper (and Dragon teams wouldn't mind Toxic Spikes), let's look at what Dragalge does to actually stop Magearna:Dragagle B=>A (Dragon)
It has toxic spikes to help with the problems of things walling dragons (Ex. Normal.) It's slow enough that you stand a chance against trick room fairy (0 Ivs are slower than azumarill (with -nature With it's ability adaptibility it can ohko most fairys that pose a threat offensively. With max hp and SpD it takes 47% max damage from fleur cannon from magerna (252 spA) You could run scald or hp fire or focus blast to deal with steel types. Ninetales Alola bullies dragons. It gets 3hko by freeze dry and 2hko by blizzard. If aurora veil is up sludge wave 75% 2hk0. Probably would be too bad to run some SpA to secure the kills.
Interestingly, this was my initial reasoning too, but B rank is also filled with skuntank, drapion and tentacruel, and these are all options that are outclassed most of the time by a-muk and toxapex. While these aren't mega Pokémon, incuding something like tentacruel on the team will have the same effect as it will replace toxapex (nobody is going to run both)..99/100 times you'd much rather have Mega Venusaur on your Poison team than Mega Beedrill, there is really no way it should be all the way up at B. Mega Bee's weakness to rocks + poison not having the best hazard removal in the game hurts it viability too. Sure its annoying in some match-ups but unless i read a really really convincing post over when and why i should consider using up my mega slot on a fast U-turner that doesn't apply much pressure at all and makes the Ground and Electric match-up even worse, I'm not sold on it at all. D-rank imo.
I agree with your reasoning and I can see where you're coming from, but in my opinion the value of an almost unreplacable Mega Pokemon is way higher than one individual team member that doesn't hold as much as a unique niche as the other. Mega Venusaur is the glue that keeps Poison-type teams from falling apart and losing horribly to Electric and Water match-ups, and I think the trade-off of having a fast hard-hitter on a type that doesn't really need that role as a whole I think justifies why Mega Beedrill should almost never be used over Mega Venusaur, unless you're playing for some Tournament and are ab-so-lutely sure your opponent will bring something like Psychic or Dark, but eh.Interestingly, this was my initial reasoning too, but B rank is also filled with skuntank, drapion and tentacruel, and these are all options that are outclassed most of the time by a-muk and toxapex. While these aren't mega Pokémon, incuding something like tentacruel on the team will have the same effect as it will replace toxapex (nobody is going to run both)..
Like these guys, it's not like mega bee is bad on the level of qwilfish, it's just that you have way better options available...
FINALLY someone actually acknowledges how scary Koko is against Fire without Alola Marowak xDAlola-Marowak is pretty underrated on Fire Monotypes, largely due to it's low speed, but IMO is still a worthwhile asset due largely to it's Electric-type immunity and raw, spammable power.
Marowak-Alola C --> B (Fire)
Although Marowak's "raw power" isn't as unique on Fire as it is on Ghost: an effective 518/568 attack with Thick Club is comparable with threats like Band Victini or Darmanitan. However Marowak's access to strong Ghost STAB in Shadow Bone makes it one of the strongest secondary STAB options available to Fire Monotypes, and can help deal with threats like Slowbro(-Mega). And Marowak's strength can't be understated, as even out of the sun Marowak can 2HKO threats like Toxapex or Mandibuzz, and in the sun will 2HKO almost every defensive wall from Porygon2 to Mega-Sableye.
Electric Immunity is Marowak's biggest niche, however, as Electric-spam can be extremely dangerous to Fire teams, especially for teams utilizing Mega-Charizard Y. There are few available resists, electric types often have the speed advantage, and pivoting creates opportunities for dangerous threats to come in safely. Even teams using Mega-Zard X can struggle with Electric, as Charizard cannot switch in un-megaevolved (which would also sacrifice your ground immunity) and is a wincondition you usually can't afford risking.252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Toxapex: 188-224 (61.8 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Shadow Bone vs. 248 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro-Mega: 210-248 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Bonemerang (2 hits) vs. 252 HP / 80 Def Tyranitar: 296-352 (73.2 - 87.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2: 160-189 (42.7 - 50.5%) -- 94.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Porygon2 in Sun: 240-283 (64.1 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz: 222-262 (52.7 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 240 HP / 216+ Def Mandibuzz in Sun: 333-393 (79 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 192-226 (63.3 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Thick Club Marowak-Alola Flare Blitz vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega in Sun: 288-339 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Luckily, Alola-Wak is able to switch into and/or check almost every Electric type in the metagame including Zapdos, Magnezone, Tapu Koko, Thundurus-T, Thundurus-I (without Knock Off), Galvantula, and Alola-Raichu. An immunity, unlike a resist (Rotom-Heat), to Volt Switch means Alola-Marowak can consistently generate momentum against Fairy, Electric, and Flying monotypes without letting threats like Dragonite, Alola-Golem, or Landorus-T be pivoted into safely.
Finally, Alola-Marowak can offer minor utility in Stealth Rocks, allowing Torkoal to run another move such as Clear Smog or Solarbeam. The Fighting- and Normal-type immunities can be helpful as well, forcing 50/50s with threats like Diggersby and spin-blocking.
Considering these assets, I nominate B-rank for Alola-Marowak on Fire.
Agree with everything except maybe Salamence on Dragon, care to explain why it rose up from B to A? Also ABOUT TIME Mega Gyarados rose to A Rank. >_>Here's long awaited update
Quick things to note
- Mega Beedrill will start of at D on both Bug and Poison, if it progressively gets better we'll rank it higher.
- Please avoid biased nominations. Nominations, such as I use this Pokemon on my teams will not be tolerated. This is your warning
Poison
Muk-Alola A--->S
Mega Beedril Unranked--->D
Amoonguss Unranked--->D
Salazzle B--->C
Dragon
Salamence B--->A
Guzzlord C--->D
Exeggutor-Alola D--->Unranked
Dark
Guzzlord C--->D
Umbreon B--->C
Ghost
Gengar A--->S
Doublade A--->B
Decidueye B--->C
Grass
Decidueye B--->C
Exeggutor-Alola C--->Unranked
Fire
Talonflame B--->C
Flying
Landorus-Therian A--->S
Salamence C--->B
Thundurus-Therian B--->C
Tornadus-Therian B--->C
Water
Toxapex S--->A
Manaphy A--->S-This will be discussed more later, but the continued dominance of Rain Dance Waterium Z Manaphy can't be ignored.
Mega Gyarados B---->A
Bug
Buzzwole B--->A
Mega Beedrill Unranked--->D
Rock
Mega Aerodactyl B--->A
Golem-Alola C--->B
Fighting
Conkeldurr B--->C
Psychic
Necrozma B--->C
Deoxys-S B--->A
Raichu-Alola D---> Unranked
Cresselia D--->C
Bruxish D--->Unranked
Normal
Swellow C--->B
Drampa B--->C
Steel
Bisharp A--->B
Salamence is dragon's best dd user and dragonium/firium (with fire fang) allow it to break through walls and sweep with moxie.FINALLY someone actually acknowledes how scary Koko is against Fire without Alola Marowak xD
Agree with everything except maybe Salamence on Dragon, care to explain why it rose up from B to A? Also ABOUT TIME Mega Gyarados rose to A Rank. >_>
I politely disagree with this suggestion, and I believe it is my job to reiterate the points on why Whimsicott is still one of Grass most viable choices.Whimsicott earned a name for itself on Grass with its unique blend of speedy offense and anti-setup utility. STAB Moonblast offered Grass a valuable offensive response to Dragon-, Fighting-, and Dark-type threats/teams back in ORAS, three mid- to high-tier types at the time mind you, and Prankster Encore / Stun Spore helped disable dangerous setup sweepers. Whimsicott is also very fast, especially for Grass-types, which when combined with Prankster Stun Spore provided Grass with strong speed control. All these assets earned Whimsicott an A-rank in ORAS; however, in Sun and Moon Whimsicott struggles to operate nearly as effectively.
Whimsicott A --> B (Grass)
First, Gen 7 brought with it several small changes to game mechanics that undercut Whimsicott's capacity to check threats.
Second, there are several metagame trends that make Whimsicott less valuable of an asset this generation. For one, the three matchups where Whimsicott performed best, i.e. Dark, Fighting, and Dragon, are now all mid- to low-tier types and are far less relevant / common than they were in ORAS. Many of the threats Whimsicott helps Grass check are either pretty uncommon, such as Terrakion and Mega Sableye, or aren't even legal for the Gen 7 meta, like Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, and Hoopa-U. Also, Whimsicott's matchups against the current high-tier types are mediocre at best and it becomes more of a liability than a valuable teammate.
- Paralysis now only reduces the target's speed by 50%, down from 75%, which makes it less effective for checking speed boosting threats such as Mega Charizard X or Volcarona.
- The introduction of Z-moves made Whimsicott less reliable for disabling setup, as these powerful attacks ignore move-locking effects such as Encore. This leaves Whimsicott horribly susceptible against sweepers that use Z-moves such as Dragonite, Salamence, Volcarona, Landorus-T, and Magearna.
- Dark-types are now immune to Prankster. A minor nerf overall, sure, considering Whimsicott can handle most Dark-types with Moonblast, but it means Whimsicott is forced out by Greninja and can't disable bulkier dark types like Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, or Alolan Muk.
While the cottonball is still fast and can check frail threats with STAB Moonblast and Giga Drain, Whimsicott lacks the coverage and power to have an offensive presence in most matchups. Although Prankster Stun Spore can help cripple and/or scare out fast offensive threats like Victini, there are a healthy supply of defensive Pokemon on any given type that can switch into and take advantage of Whimsicott such as Zapdos, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Alolan Muk, Scizor(-Mega), Klefki, etc. As a result, Whimsicott can be easily managed by top types like Fairy or Psychic. Against disadvantageous matchups like Steel, Bug, Fire, Flying, or Poison, Whimsicott is largely dead weight and can only offer minor fringe utility: occasionally scaring out offensive threats like Nihilego with Stun Spore or potentially disabling sweepers like Mega Scizor with Encore.
The only relevant matchups where Whimsicott puts in meaningful work are Ground, Water, and Electric which is purely based off of its Grass typing. Whimsicott still offers appealing speed control, utility, and Fairy STAB, but it simply doesn't offer enough in most matchups compared to other Pokemon on Grass.
With that in mind, I nominate Whimsicott for B-rank on Grass.
This is my main issue with your reasoning, as what has been said here is completely untrue. Whimsicott is consistently effective at many matchups at once, reason of why it remained in A rank for so long. The above examples on Mega-Pinsir and Mega Scizor I provided state that, even on matchups which Whimsicott doesn't provide raw damage output, it can still be reliable on its support role because it can prevent an incoming sweep from happening. Grass's bad overall momentum means threats have an easier time getting around the right Pokemon to setup, and Whimsicott provides an amazing response to all these cases. I know I have been saying this quite a lot in this single post, but it is important to note that Grass reliance on defensive strategies means it is usually susceptible against bulkier setup sweepers or even fast attackers (take Scarf Victini for example), which despite Stun Spore's nerf, are still crippled by the status move.The only relevant matchups where Whimsicott puts in meaningful work are Ground, Water, and Electric which is purely based off of its Grass typing. Whimsicott still offers appealing speed control, utility, and Fairy STAB, but it simply doesn't offer enough in most matchups compared to other Pokemon on Grass.
Dark-types are now immune to Prankster. A minor nerf overall, sure, considering Whimsicott can handle most Dark-types with Moonblast, but it means Whimsicott is forced out by Greninja and can't disable bulkier dark types like Mandibuzz, Tyranitar, or Alolan Muk.
I think you are underestimating Whimsicott's damage potential a lot here. It does get decent coverage moves in Psychic and Shadow Ball, allowing it to check several Poison and Psychic threats to a certain extent (for instance, it can OHKO Gengar after Stealth Rocks damage). The special attack isn't particularly good but it is enough to take down weakened teams late game, even with moves lacking STAB. Those traits, combined with its great 116 base speed, allows it to act as a good cleaner and an amazing offensive support for its team. Most switchins you mentioned here don't matter because they are natural counters to most Grass pokemon anyway, so it is not like replacing Whimsicott would make mons like Celesteela easier to deal with.While the cottonball is still fast and can check frail threats with STAB Moonblast and Giga Drain, Whimsicott lacks the coverage and power to have an offensive presence in most matchups. Although Prankster Stun Spore can help cripple and/or scare out fast offensive threats like Victini, there are a healthy supply of defensive Pokemon on any given type that can switch into and take advantage of Whimsicott such as Zapdos, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Alolan Muk, Scizor(-Mega), Klefki, etc. As a result, Whimsicott can be easily managed by top types like Fairy or Psychic. Against disadvantageous matchups like Steel, Bug, Fire, Flying, or Poison, Whimsicott is largely dead weight and can only offer minor fringe utility: occasionally scaring out offensive threats like Nihilego with Stun Spore or potentially disabling sweepers like Mega Scizor with Encore.
Mega Pinsir is a pretty terrible example because honestly, why would it even setup when there's a Whimsicott still available on the other team? It just blows up Grass's defensive core. The only way Whimsicott has a fighting chance is by trying to some how bait the Mega Pinsir to setup on your hard switch in, because there's no way you're free switching into an attack, which is going to be a tad difficult to do since it 2HKOes all of Grass with Return/CC so there's pretty much no reason to setup until late-game. Then the Bug team can switch into pretty much anything else and not care about anything Whimsicott tries to do to Mega Pinsir. Regarding Mega Scizor, you again depend on a hard switch in with Whimsicott where the Mega Scizor SDs. Sure this is easier to get since Mega Scizor is likely to setup on a Ferrothorn but your so called "setup sweeper check" doesn't check Mega Scizor if it decides to attack. Now you're basically left with a Pokemon to fodder off because Whimsicott either took so much damage that it's now worthless in the matchup or you died to entry hazards, because there's pretty much no way hazards won't be up unless the Bug team is running Defog Mega Scizor. Then again, if Mega Scizor uses Bug Bite you're getting 2HKOed and if it used U-turn the Bug team just gets a favorable matchup anyways. The paralysis mechanic doesn't matter that much, I agree, but if it does anything it makes Whimsicott worse. Something like scarf Tapu Bulu with Stone Edge for Mega Pinsir and just a regular Mega Venusaur set for Mega Scizor are already better checks than Whimsicott and both of those aforementioned Pokemon are pretty standard slots on Grass teams.I politely disagree with this suggestion, and I believe it is my job to reiterate the points on why Whimsicott is still one of Grass most viable choices.
While it is true that the the new paralysis mechanics affected Whimsicott's potential to check offensive threats, it remains as a staple largely due to its ability to check setup sweepers and help your team with momentum as it can stop nearly every setup sweeper in the game, especially if they get a free switch on defensive oriented Pokemons like Cradily or Ferrothorn, regardless of the position they have taken. For instance, it can immediately stop a Pokemon like Mega-Scizor or a Mega-Pinsir from setting up on fodders and therefore easily sweeping your team at any stage of the game.
Could you please mention these matchups? I skimmed over the whole post and I don't see anything about newly mentioned matchups besides paralyzing a Choice Scarf Victini, which Tyke mentioned via "...Stun Spore provided Grass with strong speed control."This is my main issue with your reasoning, as what has been said here is completely untrue. Whimsicott is consistently effective at many matchups at once, reason of why it remained in A rank for so long.
Could you please give examples of setup sweepers in relevant matchups that Whimsicott is great for crippling, because other than the Pokemon Tyke already mentioned, I'm struggling to find any.The above examples on Mega-Pinsir and Mega Scizor I provided state that, even on matchups which Whimsicott doesn't provide raw damage output, it can still be reliable on its support role because it can prevent an incoming sweep from happening. Grass's bad overall momentum means threats have an easier time getting around the right Pokemon to setup, and Whimsicott provides an amazing response to all these cases. I know I have been saying this quite a lot in this single post, but it is important to note that Grass reliance on defensive strategies means it is usually susceptible against bulkier setup sweepers or even fast attackers (take Scarf Victini for example), which despite Stun Spore's nerf, are still crippled by the status move.
I agree with Whimsicott beating Mandibuzz since that's pretty obvious. Grass gets destroyed by Greninja. There's no argument you could possibly provide that show otherwise. The only Pokemon that can comfortably check Greninja is Mega Venusaur if Greninja isn't carrying Extrasensory, which a lot of Greninja on Dark teams do since even before the banning of Hoopa-U. With Stealth Rock LO Greninja Extrasensory is a 2HKO, but then again, I guess Dark as 5 other Pokemon to use that can back it up since it cleans your team. Dark also has Alolan Muk so ORAS Grass's amazing check to Dark teams is now effectively useless.Wait, what??? I don't believe this was actually brought up. Sorry if this looks rude, but Grass teams don't really struggle vs any of those threats, and if anything, Whimsicott can handle most of those Dark Pokemon really well. Mandibuzz was always immune to Stun Spore because of Overcoat, so this is another invalid statement which doesn't bring anything to the table (not to mention Whimsicott already 2HKOes it with Moonblast anyways, so it would be really pointless to paralyze a wall in first place). It is outsped by Greninja but its teammates can already handle it really well, so this isn't really a reason to drop it either.
LolIn short, Whimsicott handles most Dark types well just as it did last generation, it is your wincondition for this matchup and can easily clean weakened Dark teams later on the game.
Psychic and Shadow Ball on Whimsicott are so bad and why would you want a x4 weak to Poison mon attacking Poison for pitiful damage? Just use Celebi.I think you are underestimating Whimsicott's damage potential a lot here. It does get decent coverage moves in Psychic and Shadow Ball, allowing it to check several Poison and Psychic threats to a certain extent (for instance, it can OHKO Gengar after Stealth Rocks damage). The special attack isn't particularly good but it is enough to take down weakened teams late game, even with moves lacking STAB. Those traits, combined with its great 116 base speed, allows it to act as a good cleaner and an amazing offensive support for its team. Most switchins you mentioned here don't matter because they are natural counters to most Grass pokemon anyway, so it is not like replacing Whimsicott would make mons like Celesteela easier to deal with.
Dude, your whole argument past Encore/Stun Spore is Whimsicott can hit things super effectively with Moonblast. You're actually colluding things that Tyke said about being good against irrelevant types as though that's exactly what Grass needs. We aren't talking about Low Tier Monotype, we're talking about Monotype. Grass beats Fighting without Whimsicott so idk why this is here. Dragon can get ousped by Whimsicott, sure. Dragon also has Kyurem-B which beats almost anything Grass has, plus if the Dragon team has Dragalge and you're hoping Psychic Whimsicott can take care of it, then I can't help you. The fact that the matchups Whimsicott was good for aren't as prevalent anymore does in fact mean Whimsicott is worse. You're basically saying in general it's going to be pretty useless now, but it still has these three matchups where it doesn't change anything significant. I don't know what you're saying by mentioning Garchomp for Ground and Lati@s for Psychic. Do you think that they aren't useful in matchups anymore or something? I really don't feel like getting into why that argument is so incorrect.Lastly, Whimsicott provides a source of Fairy damage, which ensures your team is not instalosing to the likes of Mega-Sableye. It can also check Fighting and Dragon threats, which is an additional utility to what Whimsicott is meant to do. Just because Fighting and Dragon became less common on ladder doesn't mean Whimsicott got worse, because these Pokemon may show in other types as well. (think stuff like Garchomp on Ground or Lati@s in psychic).
Grass gets destroyed by Greninja. There
Lol
Psychic and Shadow Ball on Whimsicott are so bad and why would you want a x4 weak to Poison mon attacking Poison for pitiful damage? Just use Celebi.
Dude, your whole argument past Encore/Stun Spore is Whimsicott can hit things super effectively with Moonblast. You're actually colluding things that Tyke said about being good against irrelevant types as though that's exactly what Grass needs. We aren't talking about Low Tier Monotype, we're talking about Monotype. Grass beats Fighting without Whimsicott so idk why this is here. Dragon can get ousped by Whimsicott, sure. Dragon also has Kyurem-B which beats almost anything Grass has, plus if the Dragon team has Dragalge and you're hoping Psychic Whimsicott can take care of it, then I can't help you. The fact that the matchups Whimsicott was good for aren't as prevalent anymore does in fact mean Whimsicott is worse. You're basically saying in general it's going to be pretty useless now, but it still has these three matchups where it doesn't change anything significant. I don't know what you're saying by mentioning Garchomp for Ground and Lati@s for Psychic. Do you think that they aren't useful in matchups anymore or something? I really don't feel like getting into why that argument is so incorrect.
Yeah, have fun using Celebi and then getting EASILY countered by Alola-Muk and Pursuit trapped. Hope you know it easily sponges Earth Power with its large special bulk, and not to mention it is still a 50/50 because you have to predict its switch to get the upper hand. Psychic was never a bad option on Whimsicott, it had pretty good succesfull last generation and so it can work this gen, it can take down weakened Poison types later on the game and if you really think they are so bad then I can assure you have never used it yourself enough.Psychic and Shadow Ball on Whimsicott are so bad and why would you want a x4 weak to Poison mon attacking Poison for pitiful damage? Just use Celebi.
I hope you are kidding here, right? I really can't see how you are supposed to beat Fighting when both Buzzwole and Kommo-o are massive threats for the type. If you think this matchup is easy because Mega-Medicham is banned then I am certain that you are mistaken.Dude, your whole argument past Encore/Stun Spore is Whimsicott can hit things super effectively with Moonblast. You're actually colluding things that Tyke said about being good against irrelevant types as though that's exactly what Grass needs. We aren't talking about Low Tier Monotype, we're talking about Monotype. Grass beats Fighting without Whimsicott so idk why this is here. Dragon can get ousped by Whimsicott, sure. Dragon also has Kyurem-B which beats almost anything Grass has, plus if the Dragon team has Dragalge and you're hoping Psychic Whimsicott can take care of it, then I can't help you. The fact that the matchups Whimsicott was good for aren't as prevalent anymore does in fact mean Whimsicott is worse. You're basically saying in general it's going to be pretty useless now, but it still has these three matchups where it doesn't change anything significant. I don't know what you're saying by mentioning Garchomp for Ground and Lati@s for Psychic. Do you think that they aren't useful in matchups anymore or something? I really don't feel like getting into why that argument is so incorrect.
Care to explain how Greninja destroys Grass? Unless if it is a dedicated counter for Grass teams, Greninja has a really hard time getting past both Ferrothorn and Mega-Venusaur at the same time. And please don't tell me Hidden Power Fire + Extrasensory + Ice Beam is common because it is a really restricted moveset as most Greninja usually carry Dark and Water moves.I agree with Whimsicott beating Mandibuzz since that's pretty obvious. Grass gets destroyed by Greninja. There's no argument you could possibly provide that show otherwise. The only Pokemon that can comfortably check Greninja is Mega Venusaur if Greninja isn't carrying Extrasensory, which a lot of Greninja on Dark teams do since even before the banning of Hoopa-U. With Stealth Rock LO Greninja Extrasensory is a 2HKO, but then again, I guess Dark as 5 other Pokemon to use that can back it up since it cleans your team. Dark also has Alolan Muk so ORAS Grass's amazing check to Dark teams is now effectively useless.
You asked, I give you: Gyarados, Volcarona, Salamence, and Garchomp (on Ground) are all worth mentioning options. Feel to disagree with a VALID ARGUMENT, though.Could you please give examples of setup sweepers in relevant matchups that Whimsicott is great for crippling, because other than the Pokemon Tyke already mentioned, I'm struggling to find any.
Whimsicott earned a name for itself on Grass with its unique blend of speedy offense and anti-setup utility. STAB Moonblast offered Grass a valuable offensive response to Dragon-, Fighting-, and Dark-type threats/teams back in ORAS, three mid- to high-tier types at the time mind you, and Prankster Encore / Stun Spore helped disable dangerous setup sweepers. Whimsicott is also very fast, especially for Grass-types, which when combined with Prankster Stun Spore provided Grass with strong speed control. All these assets earned Whimsicott an A-rank in ORAS; however, in Sun and Moon Whimsicott struggles to operate nearly as effectively.
Whimsicott A --> B (Grass)
This is in part due to mechanical changes made in Sun and Moon that undercut Whimsicott, such as Paralysis only halving speed rather than quartering it or the introduction of powerful Z-moves for sweepers that ignore encore. But more importantly there are several metagame trends that make Whimsicott less valuable of an asset this generation. For one, the three matchups where Whimsicott performed best, i.e. Dark, Fighting, and Dragon, are now all mid- to low-tier types and are far less relevant / common than they were in ORAS. Many of the threats Whimsicott helps Grass check are either pretty uncommon, such as Terrakion and Mega Sableye, or aren't even legal for the Gen 7 meta, like Mega Medicham, Mega Gallade, and Hoopa-U. Also, Whimsicott's matchups against the current high-tier types are mediocre at best and it becomes more of a liability than a valuable teammate.
While the cottonball is still fast and can check frail threats with STAB Moonblast and Giga Drain, Whimsicott lacks the coverage and power to have an offensive presence in most matchups. Although Prankster Stun Spore can help cripple and/or scare out fast offensive threats like Victini, there are a healthy supply of defensive Pokemon on any given type that can switch into and take advantage of Whimsicott such as Zapdos, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Magnezone, Alolan Muk, Scizor(-Mega), Klefki, etc.
As a result, Whimsicott can be easily managed by top types like Fairy or Psychic. Against disadvantageous matchups like Steel, Bug, Fire, Flying, or Poison, Whimsicott is largely dead weight and can only offer minor fringe utility: occasionally scaring out offensive threats like Nihilego with Stun Spore or potentially disabling sweepers like Mega Scizor with Encore.
The only relevant matchups where Whimsicott puts in meaningful work are Ground, Water, and Electric which is purely based off of its Grass typing. Whimsicott still offers appealing speed control, utility, and Fairy STAB, but it simply doesn't offer enough in most matchups compared to other Pokemon on Grass.
With that in mind, I nominate Whimsicott for B-rank on Grass.
Here's another case of bringing up examples that are true in theory but fall apart in reality: Whimsicott is hardly stopping Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, or Salamence, when none of them really need to set up to sweep in the first place or can use a Z-Move to ignore your Encore. So, while Whimsicott can technically hard switch into Mega Pinsir and Volcarona, risking being OHKOed by whatever STAB move they would almost always choose to use, to Encore them as they set up, in reality that's not something that ever really happens for obvious reasons (losing Whimsicott for free).The big issue though is that even when you do justify your lines, they don't seem to make much sense. For example, you list Shadow Ball not just in moves but in the set itself as a viable slash. You give the claim that it helps Whimsicott check Psychic-types but:
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152+ SpD Mew: 127-151 (31.4 - 37.3%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 240+ SpD Jirachi: 117-140 (28.9 - 34.6%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 152 SpD Mew: 140-166 (34.6 - 41%) -- 62% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Whimsicott Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Victini: 161-192 (47.2 - 56.3%) -- 83.2% chance to 2HKO
Not really sure how this works out. You also recommend using Shadow Ball on Choice Scarf Victini for 50% instead of using Stun Spore to cripple it and allowing Mega Venusaur to counter it, so I'm also a little worried now too.
Before that, you also mention that Psychic is used to lure Poison-types... but Whimsicott can't actually OHKO the likes of Nidoking or even 2HKO Mega Venusaur, so again I'm not really sure where this was going. Mega Venusaur utterly walls Whimsicott anyway, being immune to Stun Spore, so why wouldn't the Poison user just switch it in safely, given that no Whimsicott set can ever beat it?
I'm sorry, but this is the entire basis of your argument; "it was good last gen so it's also good this gen." This isn't ORAS, this is SUMO.Yeah, have fun using Celebi and then getting EASILY countered by Alola-Muk and Pursuit trapped. Hope you know it easily sponges Earth Power with its large special bulk, and not to mention it is still a 50/50 because you have to predict its switch to get the upper hand. Psychic was never a bad option on Whimsicott, it had pretty good succesfull last generation and so it can work this gen, it can take down weakened Poison types later on the game and if you really think they are so bad then I can assure you have never used it yourself enough.
How does Fighting break Mega Venusaur without Psychic STAB exactly? Spam Banded Flare Blitz Infernape, Banded Buzzwole, and Hawlucha I guess? BandNape has a 9% chance of 2HKOing if Mega Venu hard switches into it, but Infernape KOes itself with recoil damage in the meantime. Banded Buzzwole can't 2HKO Mega Venusaur and Hawlucha isn't a relevant Pokemon. I'm sorry, but I don't see how Grass loses this matchup without using unconventional sets on Fighting's part that realistically aren't viable when concerning the overall meta or having Hawlucha.I hope you are kidding here, right? I really can't see how you are supposed to beat Fighting when both Buzzwole and Kommo-o are massive threats for the type. If you think this matchup is easy because Mega-Medicham is banned then I am certain that you are mistaken. I would recommend you to read the insane posts you are making bc you are insulting me w/ zero reason and providing invalid arguments.
What standard Greninja doesn't run Ice Beam + HP Fire? Actually, what standard Greninja on Dark doesn't run Gunk + Ice Beam + HP Fire? I get that you love Grass teams and main the type, but I feel like you don't know this meta and the Pokemon that well. Greninja doesn't need to run Dark- and Water-type attacks just because that's its typing. This alludes back to how you constantly mention things from the ORAS meta as your argument. This is a different generation.Care to explain how Greninja destroys Grass? Unless if it is a dedicated counter for Grass teams, Greninja has a really hard time getting past both Ferrothorn and Mega-Venusaur at the same time. And please don't tell me Hidden Power Fire + Extrasensory + Ice Beam is common because it is a really restricted moveset as most Greninja usually carry Dark and Water moves. If you want to provide a more accurate explanation I would gladly appreciate instead of making random accusations and insults.
Tyke mentioned all these Pokemon already as things that Whimsicott can be used to check, and yet, still lose to.You asked, I give you: Gyarados, Volcarona, Salamence, and Garchomp (on Ground) are all worth mentioning options. Feel to disagree with a VALID ARGUMENT, though.
I'm not going to say Whimsicott is necessarily better than Celebi in the poison match up, but it hasn't lost use in this match up. I think Juleo's point was that Whimsicott can't easily be pursuit trapped by Muk like Celebi can. Just to provide some examples of what Whimsicott can do against poison:Alolan Muk hard counters both Celebi and Whimsicott, so I fail to see the point in mentioning it. Celebi is way better against Poison than Whimsicott. You can't refute that with "this one Pokemon can counter it," especially when everything on Poison beats Whimsicott. The only argument in this bit is "Psychic wasn't a bad option on Whimsicott in ORAS."
A few things to keep in mind would be that Kommo-o hard walls Mega Venusaur and gives it possible set up opportunity.How does Fighting break Mega Venusaur without Psychic STAB exactly? Spam Banded Flare Blitz Infernape, Banded Buzzwole, and Hawlucha I guess? BandNape has a 9% chance of 2HKOing if Mega Venu hard switches into it, but Infernape KOes itself with recoil damage in the meantime. Banded Buzzwole can't 2HKO Mega Venusaur and Hawlucha isn't a relevant Pokemon. I'm sorry, but I don't see how Grass loses this matchup without using unconventional sets on Fighting's part that realistically aren't viable when concerning the overall meta or having Hawlucha.
This isn't particularly true, Grass can set Stealth Rock relatively easy and its means of hazard removal are something you can play around, Gengar has a hard time to switch in those intervals thanks to its somewhat poor bulk and risking take heavy damage. And also, I was referring to Psychic to OHKO Gengar in this specific case, due to its sightly higher damage than that of Shadow Ball's. Even if you don't consider the latter a good option, you should know Whimsicott isn't meant to OHKO stuff with its coverage move, but rather weaken the opposing team or maybe even clean later on the game.Let me preface by saying that I don't feel strongly for dropping or keeping Whimsicott's rank. However, the quality of some of the last few posts has just not been there. So, I'll deconstruct juleocesar's argument as an example of what sorts of examples are not useful when discussing viability in this thread.
Cases like using this example "Shadow Ball OHKOes Gengar after Stealth Rock" aren't really grounded in reality when Grass fails to set or preserve Stealth Rock reliably against either type Gengar is used on. Furthermore, Shadow Ball isn't a viable set in the first place.
I will have to disagree with you here, Buzzwole Bulk Up sets are threatening as Crimson Torrent mentioned in his posts, and Kommo-O, although it doesn't always carry a setup move, it has a hard time to be taken down by Mega-Venusaur thanks to its immunity to Sludge Bomb (Bulletproof). Both of them can eventually put a dent in your team and Whimsicott does an amazing job preventing their setups and can provide more momentum by forcing switches and applying pressure to the opposing Fighting side. Kommo-o doesn't have to play 50/50 with Ferro because it doesn't really run High Jump Kick as its main attacking option, meanwhile Ferrothorn struggles to do anything back because of its good bulk and Bulletproof.something like "Buzzwole and Kommo-O are massive threats for the type" is similarly false. Buzzwole is walled and removed by Mega Venusaur, which often carries Hidden Power Fire, while Kommo-O has to play 50/50 games the whole time, loses to Protect from Ferrothorn and Synthesis from Mega Venusaur, and would lose to pretty much any other offensive Grass-type threat too.
All those examples I mentioned actually apply to practice, and not just theorymoning. I don't want to be arrogant here but the fact I have been using Whimsicott a lot shows that I have been into most realistic situations and I know how to effectively handle them. Z-Moves aren't used that often on the mons you mentioned so I don't think it would be a valid argument bringing this up (it is more of a tournament thing, if anything).These examples are seemingly useful but don't actually support the overarching argument. In the first case, the situation presented is rare and difficult to create in the first place. So, while technically true, it just doesn't matter when you're actually playing the game outside of theorymons. And the second case is just false from the beginning.
Also, regarding Psychic and Shadow Ball more specifically, though, I'll quote my original rebuttal for this from your ORAS analysis of Whimsicott that still holds true now:
Here's another case of bringing up examples that are true in theory but fall apart in reality: Whimsicott is hardly stopping Mega Pinsir, Volcarona, or Salamence, when none of them really need to set up to sweep in the first place or can use a Z-Move to ignore your Encore. So, while Whimsicott can technically hard switch into Mega Pinsir and Volcarona, risking being OHKOed by whatever STAB move they would almost always choose to use, to Encore them as they set up, in reality that's not something that ever really happens for obvious reasons (losing Whimsicott for free).
Again, I'm not really making an argument for or against Whimsicott, but I hope this post helps you see what kinds of examples you should and shouldn't be using.
Remember: the key is not to have countless examples but to have relevant examples that apply outside of theorymons when you're playing in a real battle.
Finally, please attack each other's argument, not each other as people. I don't want to see flaming again.