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Headlines “Politics” [read the OP before posting]
- Thread starter vonFiedler
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its kinda funny seeing libs go "um achtually thats not in the rules" to conservatives and hype themselves up that they just owned them as if the rules of the game matter to conservatives. congrats on your clapback, can you come back to reality for a second
I'm curious what your preferred alternative would be, exactly. Focus on 'real issues' like... what, exactly? Please enlighten us.
Thanks for taking the mask off and admitting you don’t give a shit and don’t actually care to support marginalized people in any way that might so much as mildly inconvenience you
The sheer derision people like you express whenever someone asks for what they need to be safe and supported is really just so hateful and acidic, I hope you eventually get that toxicity out of yourself
The sheer derision people like you express whenever someone asks for what they need to be safe and supported is really just so hateful and acidic, I hope you eventually get that toxicity out of yourself
Go back to faint's orginal post. No one said "real issues". He basically criticized your outage in response to that video.
" It's pretty silly to hyper focus on such obvious sensationalism and conservative copium/hopium. "
You guys are getting all worked up on a pokemon website about some extreme proposals that will never be accomplished.
its kinda funny how the average american lib has this fantasy that leftists have never done anything productive while libs are the "rational get goers" who can defeat conservatism, as if liberalism isnt The "twiddle your thumbs and complain on twitter" political ideology, leaving space wide open for conservative politics to get worse. if you havent noticed leftist movements trying to make a change thats on u brother.
and no, calling yourself a leftist does not a leftist make, especially not when your first instinct on a convo about conservatist radicalism is "its never gonna happen lol", which ignores a lot of leftist philosophy. the point isnt that conservatives are going to achieve a day of the rope in a week, but the escalation and pipeline of alt right politics and how loud and effective they are. these are their goals, as lofty as it sounds right now, but how are they going to achieve it? what laws and policies will be implemented to reach that? how radicalized their members will be?
mocking it is the easy and lazy way. one cant just ignore real issues because the people saying it make sure to sound as insane as possible
What was my 'outage' (or outrage...) in response to that video, exactly? Please clarify.
the other guy rather
I see. So why did you respond to me, then?
You don't deserve a discussion in good faith given you couldn't resist throwing in your last line during your previous response to me, as if you're somehow familiar with my life, my politics, and work I've done in my career to advance the exact same causes you claim to support. Thank you for making your avatar the ally flag with a gun on it, though. My queer friends were incredibly thankful for all the work you've done advocating for more guns in the hands of the people. Perhaps we should arm the teachers next?
You clearly already have your mind made up about me and it's evident nothing I can say is going to change that. My advice to you is to focus on the here and now, on issues that are present and real, not on something that is being proposed by fringe groups in 2025 onward. Assuming you volunteer, continue to focus on spreading messages of abortion rights in states that have banned it, or states that are voting on it presently. Educate people on what it actually means to be Queer and don't shut someone out just because they don't understand your life at first glance. Most issues that divide American stem from class and being told to be afraid of the "other." Don't focus on solving everything at once. If you want to be taken seriously and change minds, listing identity politics isn't going to change the minds of people that don't respond to it. It's understandable to be tired, feel defeated, and feel like we can't progress forward. But nothing is going to come with a defeatist attitude, and in the off chance I am wrong about this 2025 campaign being a real, legitimate thread, at least take solace in knowing that for once, as a trans person, you will have the entire Democratic party working WITH you given how tyrannical the propositions are.
I'm no longer going to engage on this topic. It's frustrating being told you're something you're not.
Don't worry, I was never expecting a good faith discussion from you.
Some examples, please?
And my queer friends (and I) are incredibly thankful that more actual leftists are waking up to the need for mutual aid and, yes, armed resistance in the face of growing fascistic violence, and more people are snapping out of the brain rot mentality that direct action is scary and dangerous and only by playing within the rules of the status quo can we ever change it. Contrary to the belief of spineless radlibs like you, voting doesn't stop bullets.
I'm very comforted to know that the world's most useless political party will have my back when it's too late to actually do anything to help me. Probably. In reality you'll probably continue to shove your head in the sand long after things get much worse than you claim it's possible for them to get; this is like page one of the liberal playbook.
You're right about one thing, though. Talking with you is a waste of time. Stay mad, radlib.
the american institution will never support progressive policies because it is a conservative institution
fuck the constitution
fuck the democratic party (and of course the republican party)
fuck "debating" the conservatives
fuck the senate
fuck the supreme court
it wasnt debate lords or liberals that got you the 8 hour workday, or fought for your rights and continue to do so for a livable wage, it was union members and socialists who did it for you
its not Joe Biden out at the writers strike for america fighting AI's mounting pressure to destroy jobs, and to earn people who make companies millions of dollars in profit a livable wage
leftism doesn't win by "owning the libs" or debating ben shabibo it wins through collective bargaining, it is the sole essence of leftism, and it has been and always will be at odds with the Republic of America that aims to hold capitalist power first, and the people together second
the funny thing with centrists in America is that most "centrists" aren't centrists, and no I don't mean in the conservative way. Most centrists in America adequately identify key problems with the country and system, but are simply told by the Republican party that it's the Democrats being Marxist Leninst Chinese Socialist Communist Muslims and their brains turn off.
most americans already agree with some leftist policies, the republican party tells them they are the party of anti establishment fuck the government + we hate the gosh darn taxes, also muslims are all evil, and the more people wake up and realize that's pretty stupid, the more popular we become, and the more the democratic party is getting antsy as we are starting to become a pretty big part of their numbers, and a lot are not too happy with the results
fuck the constitution
fuck the democratic party (and of course the republican party)
fuck "debating" the conservatives
fuck the senate
fuck the supreme court
it wasnt debate lords or liberals that got you the 8 hour workday, or fought for your rights and continue to do so for a livable wage, it was union members and socialists who did it for you
its not Joe Biden out at the writers strike for america fighting AI's mounting pressure to destroy jobs, and to earn people who make companies millions of dollars in profit a livable wage
leftism doesn't win by "owning the libs" or debating ben shabibo it wins through collective bargaining, it is the sole essence of leftism, and it has been and always will be at odds with the Republic of America that aims to hold capitalist power first, and the people together second
the funny thing with centrists in America is that most "centrists" aren't centrists, and no I don't mean in the conservative way. Most centrists in America adequately identify key problems with the country and system, but are simply told by the Republican party that it's the Democrats being Marxist Leninst Chinese Socialist Communist Muslims and their brains turn off.
most americans already agree with some leftist policies, the republican party tells them they are the party of anti establishment fuck the government + we hate the gosh darn taxes, also muslims are all evil, and the more people wake up and realize that's pretty stupid, the more popular we become, and the more the democratic party is getting antsy as we are starting to become a pretty big part of their numbers, and a lot are not too happy with the results
War Incarnate you're dropping a lot of angry and haha reacts -- would you be able to articulate what your stance is here? i'm curious bc i can't figure it out in the same way i can figure out everyone else's itt
I know you already said you won't engage in this topic further, but my brother in christ there's no id-pol here such as "trans roles should only be played by trans actors" or some other egregious examples when it comes to supposed anti-racism in particular, i'm not even a fan of overtly id-pol as a open socialist but we are literally talking about the criminalization and eradication from trans in public life in half of your country here and the plans to turn this into a nationwide reality as the highest priority of the republican party alongside erasing climate change regulations & nationwide abortion ban. If that's id-pol for you, you might aswell call the whole Black Civil Rights Movement or Anti-Apartheid movement in South Africa and so on as id-pol at this point (and no i'm not saying you actually do that).
Also you mention most overlying issues stem from class (oppression of the working class) and that's something i'd actually agree with you on as a socialist, however then you basically tell my brothers/sisters etc. to rely again on the "assured" support from the democratic party to really fight for our rights which is the wrong conclusion to make for these marginalized communities. Your takeaway that i'd be a defeatist is also completely wrong, i'm posting this because i wanted to make explicitly clear that shit's serious for my trans brothers, sisters etc. and by extension the whole rest of the LGBTIQ+ community and that you need to fight and not just vote democrats into congress, senate & state parliaments. I'm actually already organizing myself politically here in germany instead of only talking about politics online partly because of other overlying issues and the rise of the AFD which not only threaten my rights in multiple ways (and current german government agreed on implementing a "flawed" self-id law recently that only needs a majority in parliament after 2 years of discussions, which would be one of the first things the AFD would try to kill even as a junior partner of christian democrats).
I have intentionally chosen not to respond to you because you either misinterpret my words when I'm responding to others or don't make any sense in your own responses. I will respond to this solely because it fits into the former group, which I might add serves no benefit to this thread.
1) I brought up identity politics because Sablette stated "And it's not just that I'm trans, either. I'm not white. I'm disabled. I'm neurodivergent. I'm a first generation child of immigrants. I have a biological mental illness that can be treated but cannot ever go away." That's it. There's no further motive to my post. I don't know why you're talking about the Republican parties motives or actions as if I'm not aware of them.
2) I specifically stated it would be a silver lining that the Democratic party would be forced to step in. Once again, you have misconstrued or misinterpreted my very clear and direct message as if I'm telling you the Democratic party is going to solve everything. I did not say that. I just said you'd have their support and be on the same side.
3) Good on you for organizing, sincerely, but again that doesn't really mean anything when I was never speaking to you.
Okay thanks for the clarification then, these misunderstandings to whom you spoke are why i mostly refrain from online debates (especially forum) these days. Also want to make clear that i don't personally scrutinize you (can't speak for others here). Have a nice day.
Calling it idpol when I talk about the tangible effects my identities have on my life and reducing it to class is absurd but it’s about what i can expect from people who don’t live those things. If you can’t view things intersectionally and understand that class is not the sole axis of oppression or even the “most important” one, you’re not pushing in the same direction I am, you’re just doing “healthcare pls” without understanding that you getting healthcare does not mean everyone else does.
Guys, let's not fight.
Project 2025 is a nightmare framework for citizens of the United States and, let's be honest, the rest of the world if it goes off without a hitch.
We shouldn't be bickering about who is the "real" Leftist in this scenario. That wastes energy and accomplishes nothing.
We should be putting our energy into combatting against this blatantly fascistic framework put out by Conservative think-tank groups and doing the opposite of what they want to do.
Project 2025 is a nightmare framework for citizens of the United States and, let's be honest, the rest of the world if it goes off without a hitch.
We shouldn't be bickering about who is the "real" Leftist in this scenario. That wastes energy and accomplishes nothing.
We should be putting our energy into combatting against this blatantly fascistic framework put out by Conservative think-tank groups and doing the opposite of what they want to do.
I mean, that's sort of how this whole conversation started. Certain self-described 'leftists' seem to think it's just not a big deal because it can't happen here and we should focus on real issues instead like, uhhhh... voting, I guess? Because that's solved all our issues so well in the past?
I don't really care for conversations like this to devolve into leftism purity spirals where we all puff out our chests and compete to see who is the most progressive, but I'm so fucking sick of people who are either politically clueless or willfully dishonest adopting leftist language and labels while advocating for the status quo and running defense for fascists.
I will work with anyone who considers themselves anti-fascist. Call yourself an anarchist, Marxist-Leninist, liberal, apolitical, whatever, if you want to stem the tide of fascism in this country and you're willing to use the direct action necessary to do so, you're on my side. If you want to shove your head in the sand, deny that there's a problem in the first place, and brow-beat leftists who actually step up and fight against fascism and for the human rights of marginalized people, fuck you. You are part of the problem. You neither have nor deserve an ounce of my respect. I could not possibly care less if you consider yourself the leftiest leftist to ever do leftism, nor do I care how many times you voted for a Democrat.
So as an outsider, I think a big problem of the US is that, while the state is relatively young by itself, it's constitution isn't. Most European nations received new constitutions during the 40s, these constitutions are much more applicable and "tighter" than the US constitution. It makes sense that it came to this, as the rather weak constitution of the Weimarer Republik was a huge factor in the rise of the Nazis
The current US constitution has many blind spots that allow and even somewhat encourage anti-democracy and inhumanity. For example, the supreme court where judges have no term limits and can be just instated by presidents. I suppose it had some purpose in the 18th century, but we can see what issues this entails in the 21st century
Similarly, the second amendment makes complete sense when you consider the context it was amended in, but the way it's written allows lobbies to reference this amendment when even moderate rules in regards to gun control come up
In my home country, things have gone significantly worse in recent years, due to having an indecisive and weak gov, then being co-run for a few years by fascists and being run for a couple of years by conservative opportunists. That said, our version of the supreme court and parliament have actually defended democratic foundamentals, due to being bound by a rock-solid constitution
The thing is also that a reform wouldn't be possible when the very idea of the USA is like a religion in America, with it's flawed constitution being deeply engrained in it. The idea of the US being somehow better than every other nation being engrained in the mindset of many Americans doesn't help here
The current US constitution has many blind spots that allow and even somewhat encourage anti-democracy and inhumanity. For example, the supreme court where judges have no term limits and can be just instated by presidents. I suppose it had some purpose in the 18th century, but we can see what issues this entails in the 21st century
Similarly, the second amendment makes complete sense when you consider the context it was amended in, but the way it's written allows lobbies to reference this amendment when even moderate rules in regards to gun control come up
In my home country, things have gone significantly worse in recent years, due to having an indecisive and weak gov, then being co-run for a few years by fascists and being run for a couple of years by conservative opportunists. That said, our version of the supreme court and parliament have actually defended democratic foundamentals, due to being bound by a rock-solid constitution
The thing is also that a reform wouldn't be possible when the very idea of the USA is like a religion in America, with it's flawed constitution being deeply engrained in it. The idea of the US being somehow better than every other nation being engrained in the mindset of many Americans doesn't help here
There's no perfect set of laws to please everyone. Aside from these goofy fringe socialists, there is no appetite on either side to over haul the constitution. We Americans are by and large happy with the constitution, it is seen as the bedrock of our freedoms. You describe it as a problem getting in the way of progress, that's not how we see it
Don’t mean to hijack but I’m FEELING the sentiment of this post. STRONG
I just watched this debate by Kyle/Krystal visa vi Brianna. So I LOVE Brianna’s work on the Feel the Bern podcast which I feel is almost core intellectual material for modern American leftism. Furthermore Cornel West is an essential guide of progressive history and thought for the next generation of leftists, but here some of her sentiments for supporting West's Green Party run…
“I’m sympathetic to Accelerationism.”
“I’m not afraid of Donald Trump”
Like… maybe back in 2016 I would sympathize a lot more sure but…
I was NOT a blue no matter who voter by any means (voted Green 2020) but I have moved with the clearer evidence. In this moment…
The Dems HAVE gotten MORE progressive in policy, even if they are less democratic in primary process.
The liberal/left and even centrist voter base HAS gotten more leftist-sympathetic, more progressive and accepting of Socialism existing in our civics.
The Republicans have gotten WAY MORE openly crazy, fascist, and just provenly an imminent threat to democracy at home and abroad.
Trump is not an unknown quality anymore. If you tell me you’re NOT afraid of the threat of genuine fascism in the most powerful country, you’re insane to me at this point.
And when Bri says “Blue no matter who brought us here! What is the mechanism that prevents further lurch to the right??”
That mechanism is the 2nd thing on the above list. If the Biden admin is more progressive than the Obama one (I think it inarguably is) then it’s not in response to dry voting mechanisms, the left doesn't have any more institutional/party power-- what's driving it is the fact that the voter base itself is more progressive. Also the fact that Biden is more progressive matters not because of what Biden’s done, but matters directionally— the future direction of the party, and its at least tepid but definitely noticeable response to the base's shift.
That Gen Z is flexing, that unions are getting stronger, and that even Wine Moms watching MSNBC, Centrist Dads watching CNN, and Fortune 500 execs pitching ESG to their shareholders are seeing figures like Bernie and AoC as a normal, sane, and even welcome part of the political process where as Trump represents instability and insanity for more of the population.
It’s the people not the party, the citizens and not the DNC that will stop the rightward lurch.
I want to be sympathetic to as broad a coalition as possible but I can’t understand brothers and sisters without firm commitment to anti-fascism/democratic preservation in the moment.
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Interesting take, given that it's been amended 17 times since the original set of 10 amendments, and was most recently amended 21 years ago in 1992 (not even close to the record of 61 years between the 12th and 13th amendments). It would seem in the broader picture that maybe Americans aren't as universally happy with the constitution as you seem to believe, nor is it some kind of unchanging bedrock of democracy (a concept which was not universally enshrined in the constitution until almost a century after it was ratified).
Beyond that, I question how much it actually matters even if Americans were by and large happy with the constitution. How many Americans have actually read the damn thing? How many of them have the faintest clue what it says beyond maybe the first and second amendments? Some parts of the constitution are literally just overruling earlier parts of the constitution (such as the 18th amendment banning the possession of alcohol, and the 21st amendment basically just saying the 18th amendment is null and void). It's a bit strange to treat a document as immutable or infallible when the document itself doesn't seem to consider itself so.
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"...a majority [of Americans] support making sweeping changes to the political system: 61% say “significant changes” are needed in the fundamental “design and structure” of the U.S. government to make it work in current times." (Pew Research Center, 2018)
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