A "Rate My Team" Thread sans fancy title. Gen4 OU.

Team Building Process
I decided I wanted to return to Generation 4 because everything about Generation 5 is a complete and utter clusterfuck at the time of me writing this. I've always liked Metagross' design, so I figured why not build a team around him?

Machamp has proven time and time again that he is able to handle any and every lead that Generation 4 has to offer, except maybe other Machamp leads. And Starmie, but fuck Starmie.

Metagross is easily walled and countered by Bulky Grounds, and the best way to counter a Bulky Ground is with a Bulky Water. Vaporeon's ridiculous HP Stat means that not only can it survive a metric-**** ton of full powered attacks but it's ability to Wish and Protect lets it stall opponents and keep my team at peak health.

I wanted a bulky core of defensive pokemon, and Vaporeon really hates being on the receiving end of Electric attacks from the likes of Jolteon and such. My team would need a Bulky Ground-type. With Hippowdon's Sand Stream being detrimental to Vaporeon's health and Gliscor suffering severely from 4 Moveslot syndrome, I opted for Swampert, whose resistances to Rock and Electric-type moves are appreciated.

Of course, with two Bulky Waters I really wanted a Grass-resistance, and I needed more Status-inducing moves so Metagross would be able to thrive, and feared my team was too slow to handle some of the threats of this Metagame. While there are many, many Pokemon that fit these criteria, I opted for the most annoying. The pokemon that everyone loves to hate: Togekiss.

Desperately needing to find a sixth and painfully aware of how vulnerable my almost-defensive core was to Status-inducers, I decided I needed a Status-inducer of my own. Also being paranoid I lacked raw power and type variety, I chose Breloom.


Update 1

My weaknesses to Zapdos, Rotom, Celebi and Jolteon, however, were quite clear when I went to WiFi. That shit would not fly. Still enjoying Togekiss' ability to inflict status and Swampert's ability to get rocks up while being a defensive behemoth but lamenting their mediocrity against the aforementioned Electric-types, I decided to replace them. So long ladies; you served me well, but not well enough.

Instead, I opted for Gliscor because it's Gliscor. It happily absorbs Fighting, Ground and Electric type attacks aimed at my other team members. Since it's not uncommon for Gliscor to run Toxic it helps force switches in Stall teams, allowing me to get down to business to defeat the Huns.

My defensive core now consisting of Vaporeon and Gliscor, I wanted something that could absorb the Grass-type attacks aimed at Vaporeon while resisting all those lovely types that Vaporeon and Gliscor alone can't handle, like Dragonite's Outrage. Celebi was also giving me a hard time, so I looked to the volcanoes for help.

Update 2
Gliscor's use was really situational; after SR was up I was looking at 3 usable move slots and Taunt was really only useful against things like Gyarados and Suicune, which was only when they didn't blow me away immediately with the STAB Water-moves. I moved to replace Gliscor with Rotom-H as a revenge killer instead, which makes my defensive core Heatran and Vaporeon. The loss of SR is painful sort of, because now I have to find room to add it to Heatran's Moveset.

Bros before hoes.



Atlas (Machamp) (M) @ Lum Berry
Trait: No Guard
EVs: 250 HP / 236 Atk / 16 SDef / 8 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
Bullet Punch
DynamicPunch
Payback
Stone Edge

Nails every opposing lead with either DynamicPunch or Stone Edge. Pay back is there for Azelf but they have a tendency simply to just set-up rocks to avoid activating the double-power effect of Payback. Somewhat susceptible to Trick-leads. He runs 8 Speed EVs to outrun those who only use enough Speed to outrun Blissey, which is 4.

I have been considering replacing Payback but I really need something that can at least dent Rotom, which can easily annihilate the rest of my team.

If you have a bulkier spread I am all ears, I'd like to be able to withstand a Zapdos' Thunderbolt and nail it with Stone Edge.

Why did you name him "Atlas"?
In greek mythology Atlas was a Titan who held the skies over the earth with his incredible strength. Incredible, TITANIC strength? Sounds like Machamp to me.


Nereus (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Water Absorb
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 10 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
Ice Beam
Protect
Surf
Wish

Can more or less come in on anything, really. It's that bulky. When she comes in on Bulky Grounds I opt for Wish or Ice Beam. I rarely have issues with his performance. I don't run max HP because then Vaporeon reaches 464 HP, which is divisible by 8 and limits the number of times I can switch in if Spikes and/or Stealth Rock is up.

Starmie's Thunderbolt is a 3HKO, Heatran's Explosion doesn't KO at full health, but Wish means that Metagross doesn't have to worry as much when it comes in to wreck shit. Even when the team fails I occasionally manage to win matches solely because Vaporeon is impossible to kill.

Why isn't this on every team?

Why did you name him "Nereus"?
This was inspired again by Grecian mythos. Nereus is the oldest Titan, and he fathered the Nereids: the aquatic nymphs.



Shaman (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
EVs: 14 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
Focus Punch
Spore
Stone Edge
Substitute

Breloom annoyed the shit out of me in Generation 5, but I haven't really thought much of it until now. I used to use Leech Seed rather than Seed Bomb but found myself missing the extra coverage.

It helps me a bit with annoying Trick pokemon and turns them into ticking time bombs. All the speed lets me outrun neutral base 100s without investment and Spore them.

On Pokemon Online it becomes much easier to handle after a single Spore because of Sleep Clause, but it's hard to stop on WiFi. Indeed, many Rage-Quitters rage quitted rage-quittingly, as I did when I saw a Breloom. But this was many moons ago, and I digress...

Why did you name him "Shaman"?
It's an English word this time. People go to shamans because other their crazy magic, but most of them are just crazy and can induce such craziness with psilocybin mushrooms. I was also considering Dionysus.


Astraeus (Metagross) @ Life Orb
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 60 HP / 252 Atk / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
Agility
Earthquake
Meteor Mash
Zen Headbutt

The rest of my team doesn't really take to too kindly to Bulky Waters, except Breloom really. They don't harm us, they just wall Metagross unless I run ThunderPunch. Gyarados can be especially troublesome. I usually use Life Orb but paranoia about Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave has lead me to think that I should be using a Lum Berry.

With 136 Speed EVs it hits 210 Speed. After an Agility boost it reaches 420, which is enough to outrun and exterminate Choice Scarfed Heatran and ourrun and smash Adamant Scarfed Lucario and Modest Scarfed Moltres. The rest is put in HP and Defense for extra bulk.

Why did you name it "Astraeus"?
Astraeus is the Greek deity of astronomy. Meteor Mash? Sounds pretty astronomical to me, and my opponents see stars after I use it. Haters gonna hate.


Zeus (Rotom-W) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 108 HP / 148 SAtk / 252 Spe
Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
Hydro Pump
Shadow Ball
Thunderbolt
Trick

At the behest of IronBullet93, I replaced Gliscor with a revenge killer Rotom. His explanation is better than anything I could write:

You really need a revenge-killer to deal with stuff like DD Dragonite, Gyarados and Agility Empoleon as you can't rely on Vappy to check too many Pokemon. Furthermore, Taunt + DD Gyara straight up 6-0s this team. Scarf Rotom-W is an excellent choice, as it gives you a valuable Fighting immunity, another check to Lucario, and most importantly a solid check to Gyarados. It also helps out a lot against Zapdos, resisting Thunderbolt and being able to trick a useless Scarf to defensive versions. It is much harder to decide what to replace, but I would go for Machamp as it is the most replaceable Pokemon on the team. The set is Thunderbolt | Hydro Pump | Trick | Shadow Ball. Wash Rotom is preferred to deal solid damage to Tyranitar and make it think twice before switching in. Too many Sp Atk EVs aren't really required to get the required KOs, so the ideal EVs are 108 HP | 148 Sp Atk | 252 Speed with a Timid nature. The extra bulk allows Rotom to switch into Gyarados' Waterfall or Starmies Surf more easily.
Why did you name it "Zeus"?
If a shape-shifting Thunder and Water-based psuedo-legend doesn't scream "Zeus" to you, you have problems.


Hephaestus (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 156 SpD / 100 Spe
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
Earth Power
Lava Plume
Substitute
Toxic / Stealth Rock

Heatran is my Anti-Electric pokemon. With the given EVs he has maximum special bulk and laughs at Jolteon, Zapdos and Rotom who give Metagross a hard time while walling them all day erryday. The Speed EVs let him outrun Rotom-A without speed investment and cripple them with Toxic. Substitute gives me something to hide behind to avoid retaliation in the form of Pain Split and/or Thunder Wave. He generally doles out all that Special Defending goodness that my team otherwise lacks while completing the Vaporeon / Gliscor defensive core.

Why did you name him "Hephaestus"?
The Olympian metalworker, forger of the Gods, Hephaestus worked with steel and heat all day. To those of you who think Heatran is ugly, then yeah, great. That works too.

Some Threats
With the replacement of Swampert and Togekiss, I felt confident with my choices. Yet their depature only created more threats. Well, one mostly. You know it, you love it, none other than Starmie!

It can potentially dispatch any one of my Pokemon with a Super Effective move (except Metagross who is hit neutrally by everything, but that low Special defense itsn't doing him any favors). If Metagross is already in and has already used Agility to boost his speed, then Starmie becomes less of an issue.


Retired Team Members

Eleionomae (Swampert) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Torrent
EVs: 248 HP / 216 Def / 44 SDef
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
Avalanche
Earthquake
Roar
Stealth Rock


Roar gives me a way to avoid those troublesome set-up sweepers. Swampert with this spread usually run Relaxed with Ice Beam but with Relaxed you aren't outrunning anything at all anyway so you might as well just use Avalanche off a higher Attack stat, am I right?

Why did you name her "Eleionomae"?
Eleionomae are what the Greeks called nymphs that inhabited wetlands and swamps.


Iris (Togekiss) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 70 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
Air Slash
Fire Blast
Thunder Wave
Roost / Wish

Without Thunder Wave my team is woefully low on Status. Fire Blast gives me an extra oomph in raw power and has a 60% chance of burning things I choose not to paralyze. It's not like there's anything Aura Sphere hits that Fire Blast doesn't aside from Tyranitar and Heatran.

Her EVs are fairly standard. She has maximum HP, enough Defense to make Scizor's Bullet Punch a 3HKO and the rest of her EVs have been invested in Special Defense.

Why did you name her "Iris"?
Iris was a messenger of the gods. I thought it fit because Togekiss is a Flying-type. Plus, she was a goddess of rainbows, and Togekiss only appears in times of joy and sunshine and puppies and such according to its Pokedex entries.

Harpy (Gliscor) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sand Veil
EVs: 252 HP / 40 Def / 216 Spe
Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
Earthquake
Roost
Stealth Rock
Taunt

Gliscor seriously suffers from 4 Moveslot syndrome, but c'est la vie. I use Taunt to replace Swampert's Roar in that it protects me from set-up sweepers while also allowing me to scout the opponent's next move, which is fairly critical to ensure Metagross' safe entry.

Why did you name her "Harpy"?
Don't you ever get tired of asking? Harpies are savage little ladies that just give people a hard time, man. But then again, what ladies don't? Am I right, guys?


Import
Code:
Atlas (Machamp) (M) @ Lum Berry 
Trait: No Guard
 EVs: 248 HP / 236 Atk / 16 SDef / 8 Spd
 Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
 - Bullet Punch
 - DynamicPunch
 - Payback
 - Stone Edge

 Nereus (Vaporeon) (M) @ Leftovers
 Trait: Water Absorb
 EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 10 SDef
 Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
 - Ice Beam
 - Protect
 - Surf
 - Wish

 Shaman (Breloom) (M) @ Toxic Orb
 Trait: Poison Heal
 EVs: 14 HP / 252 Atk / 244 Spd
 Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
 - Focus Punch
 - Spore
 - Stone Edge
 - Substitute

 Astraeus (Metagross) @ Life Orb
 Trait: Clear Body
 EVs: 106 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Def / 136 Spd
 Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
 - Agility
 - Earthquake
 - Meteor Mash
 - ThunderPunch

 Antigone (Gliscor) (F) @ Leftovers
 Trait: Sand Veil
 EVs: 252 HP / 42 Def / 216 Spd
 Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
 - Earthquake
 - Roost
 - Stealth Rock
 - Taunt

 Hephaetus (Heatran) (M) @ Leftovers
 Trait: Flash Fire
 EVs: 252 HP / 158 SDef / 100 Spd
 Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
 - Earth Power
 - Lava Plume
 - Substitute
 - Toxic
 
Bravo, this team is very good, and you plotted the thread very clean. One problem is, everybody loves to use a Rotom, which can fuck you over.

By the way, I wholeheartedly agree with you on 5th Gen being shitty.
 
I'm thinking of dropping Togekiss for a specially bulky Rotom with Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave and 2 Coverage moves. The problem is that another Rotom won't handle Specs or Scarfed Rotoms.

I've also been tinkering with a Scarf Moltres with WoW / Fire Blast / Air Slash / U-Turn and Scarf Gengar with Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / HP Ice / WoW .

My preference to Togekiss relied upon it's gorund immunity and ability to inflict status but now I'm looking for a Fighting resistance too, which my team otherwise lacks.
 
I like your team. I've never been status oriented myself, but this carefully built team could most likely screw over my sweeper-teams. My only strategicly-based teams happen to have very BAD weaknesses to your lines among Machamp and Togekiss (My Follow Me Clefable and Entry Hazard Forretress). All in all, I think I would give the "OK" to this team if anyone cared what I thought! Good stuff, Captain Awesome!
 
?

I'm thinking of dropping Togekiss for a specially bulky Rotom with Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave and 2 Coverage moves. The problem is that another Rotom won't handle Specs or Scarfed Rotoms.

I've also been tinkering with a Scarf Moltres with WoW / Fire Blast / Air Slash / U-Turn and Scarf Gengar with Shadow Ball / Thunderbolt / HP Ice / WoW .

My preference to Togekiss relied upon it's gorund immunity and ability to inflict status but now I'm looking for a Fighting resistance too, which my team otherwise lacks.
I don't want to sound dumb or anything, but what is WoW? Also, I wouldn't recommend Moltres for the hopefully obvious reason that it loses half health from Stealth Rock. Your team is great the way it is!

Also, sorry for the double post!
 
It's been almost two weeks and I still haven't received enough criticism to satiate me.

I know that the rules say not to bump more than once unless you've made significant changes, but I replaced a full third of the team with entirely different pokemon, so I hope it's different enough for the Moderators.

I know you guys are going crazy over Gen 5 but come on, bros.
 
I see you followed my advice and avoided Moltres... YAY. I feel weird being the only commenter other than you... :P
 
Your team is pretty weak to Zapdos, especially the SubRoost variant. It OHKOs Gliscor with HP Ice, can protect against Heatran's Toxic with a Substitute(And also beats you in a stall war thanks to Pressure and Roost), and can easily handle the rest of your team with Thunderbolt. If you run Stone Edge on Breloom, you can Spore something, Substitute up, and obliterate her as she breaks your Sub. I find I don't miss the coverage from Seed Bomb because no Ground or Water in their right mind would switch into Breloom anyways.

Happy playing, and good luck!
 
I made the change since Grass is terrible coverage anyway, but how would Breloom manage to switch in on a Zapdos with the ever real threat of HP Ice or Heat Wave?
 

IronBullet

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Hey, got your vm.

Breloom definitely needs his Grass STAB to function effectively. It needs to be able to get past bulky Waters, who otherwise can wall this team quite effectively. So, what I'd suggest is getting rid of the Sub and Focus Punch and instead trying out a more offensive moveset with a Jolly nature. This extra speed will allow Breloom to gain plenty of surprise kills, particularly against defensive Zapdos, Adamant Gyara and Dragonite. Superpower is the best Fighting STAB Breloom has after FP, and Seed Bomb goes over Sub. Another option over Stone Edge is Facade, which deals solid neutral damage to almost everything, and is much more reliable than Stone Edge in terms of pp, accuracy and power.

Thunderpunch is not too necessary on Metagross with Breloom luring in and weakening Gyara, so you might want to try out Zen Headbutt. This attack gives Metagross another solid STAB attack. It easily picks off weakened Gyarados, and is much more effective against the Rotom formes. 196 speed EVs are definitely needed to outspeed Scarf Rotom-A after an agility, so you should change that. The nature can also be changed to Jolly to outspeed Scarf Flygon, but keep Adamant if you feel the power is necessary.

You really need a revenge-killer to deal with stuff like DD Dragonite, Gyarados and Agility Empoleon as you can't rely on Vappy to check too many Pokemon. Furthermore, Taunt + DD Gyara straight up 6-0s this team. Scarf Rotom-W is an excellent choice, as it gives you a valuable Fighting immunity, another check to Lucario, and most importantly a solid check to Gyarados. It also helps out a lot against Zapdos, resisting Thunderbolt and being able to trick a useless Scarf to defensive versions. It is much harder to decide what to replace, but I would go for Machamp as it is the most replaceable Pokemon on the team. The set is Thunderbolt | Hydro Pump | Trick | Shadow Ball. Wash Rotom is preferred to deal solid damage to Tyranitar and make it think twice before switching in. Too many Sp Atk EVs aren't really required to get the required KOs, so the ideal EVs are 108 HP | 148 Sp Atk | 252 Speed with a Timid nature. The extra bulk allows Rotom to switch into Gyarados' Waterfall or Starmies Surf more easily.

Good luck!
 
Your team is good enough and has obviously recieved a lot of thought.
I'm also sticking to 4th Gen till the 5th gen metagame cools down a bit.
Presuming that you consider Heatan, Metagross vaporeon and gliscor to be your defensive pokemon, your biggest weaknesseses are Ground type attacks. If your Gliscor is killed early in the game you will have nothing to defend yourself from them. Metagross and Heatran will be easy targets.
Any pokemon that can learn both a water and electric move will be able to do super effective damage to all your defensive pokemon except metagross.
I believe that therefore the biggest threats to your team are Swampert, Gastradon and many other water types who often have hidden power electric or other electric moves designed to remove opposing water types. I would personally use a Celebi with grass knot to cover most of these threats but i doubt that you would want to change any of your team members, so I would advise that you add some grass moves into some of your pokemons movesets,
I would rate your defences at 8.3/10
However, your movesets contain many moves and all your pokemon are capable at attacking, even defensive ones. I believe that If one or 2 grass moves were added to your movesets, then your rating for attack would be close to 10.
Some useful tools can be found at http://pokemon.marriland.com/diamond_pearl/team_builder/. I advise you add in just your defensive pokemon in here to find out what kind of moves you have trouble against.
also... http://www.psypokes.com/dex/atktypeanalysis.php. Put the 4 most common move types of the pokemon you use to attack in here to find out which pokemon in OU (except shedinja) resist your attacks.
I've taken the time to rate yor team. I hope you would be willing to rate mine at http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3451411
 

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