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Pokémon Aggron
- Thread starter Shadowlucario64
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I've been crunching some numbers with All Vs One, because I've been looking into how good ResTalk would be, since ResTalk relies on Dragon Tail to pick enemies randomly. Out of the 403 OU sets, with max HP and Sp.D and Careful, and ignoring stat boosts, 150 opponents (37%) can't regularly out-damage it's Rest abilities (3HKO or better). With Impish, it's... also 150. With Adamant, it's 12 less. With boosted Def instead of Sp.D, it's 140 - good for standard switch-ins, bad for ResTalk.
On the offensive side, Heavy Slam is very clearly the superior move over Iron Head, Rock Polish set excluded. On the standard ResTalk (Heavy Slam, Dragon Tail), it can't reliably 2HKO 174 opponents with Adamant, and 185 without. With Earthquake and Ice Punch (looks best at a glance) added in, it's 106 with Adamant, and 121 without - which is a noticeable difference! And finally, with ALL SYSTEMS FULL POWER, there's just 79 it can't 2HKO!
In other words, by the standard of my completely unscientific and only vaguely useful statistics, since Careful and Impish are equally good against random opponents, Impish is the smarter choice when you're not playing like a blind cave salamander. Adamant isn't good at all for ResTalk. And ResTalk Aggron looks all set to be a really great Pokémon thanks to Dragon Tail, even if it can't reliably survive a single Rest.
Other fun facts:
-There's a very small number of Pokémon that can one-hit it, and they're nearly all fire types. Slightly more if it's Impish. A good deal more if it's defensive instead. I wouldn't worry about it.
-There are exactly 6 OU Pokémon slower than Aggron right now. 7, if you include 0 Speed Aegislash. It seems insignificant, but it's actually a 1/3 chance of royally screwing them over with Sleep Talk -> Dragon Tail! Fun times for all!
-Megaggron is god's gift to Steel MonoType! I mean, for the five people in the world who care. But I do, and that's what matters!
-I spent waaay too long doing this.
On the offensive side, Heavy Slam is very clearly the superior move over Iron Head, Rock Polish set excluded. On the standard ResTalk (Heavy Slam, Dragon Tail), it can't reliably 2HKO 174 opponents with Adamant, and 185 without. With Earthquake and Ice Punch (looks best at a glance) added in, it's 106 with Adamant, and 121 without - which is a noticeable difference! And finally, with ALL SYSTEMS FULL POWER, there's just 79 it can't 2HKO!
In other words, by the standard of my completely unscientific and only vaguely useful statistics, since Careful and Impish are equally good against random opponents, Impish is the smarter choice when you're not playing like a blind cave salamander. Adamant isn't good at all for ResTalk. And ResTalk Aggron looks all set to be a really great Pokémon thanks to Dragon Tail, even if it can't reliably survive a single Rest.
Other fun facts:
-There's a very small number of Pokémon that can one-hit it, and they're nearly all fire types. Slightly more if it's Impish. A good deal more if it's defensive instead. I wouldn't worry about it.
-There are exactly 6 OU Pokémon slower than Aggron right now. 7, if you include 0 Speed Aegislash. It seems insignificant, but it's actually a 1/3 chance of royally screwing them over with Sleep Talk -> Dragon Tail! Fun times for all!
-Megaggron is god's gift to Steel MonoType! I mean, for the five people in the world who care. But I do, and that's what matters!
-I spent waaay too long doing this.
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Here, I'm going to add my own crazy set to the pile.
Double Dance(?) Mega Aggron
Aggron@Aggronite
252 Attack/ 252 Speed
Jolly
-Hone Claws
-Autotomise
-Iron Tail
-Aqua Tail* / Stone Edge
*unavailable pre-pokebank
Come in on a physical attacker and laugh as you start setting up speed boosts and attack and accuracy boosts. With +1 to accuracy Iron Tail becomes reliable and is Aggron's strongest overall STAB option. Then you just have to pick your poison as regards coverage - you can take stone edge and be dicked over by rival Steels or Aqua Tail and get dicked over by most water types. Either way, both appreciate the added accuracy and do solid damage to everything that doesn't resist at +1.
Maybe not a set that works the best to Aggron's strengths (still outsped by quite a lot at +2 speed) or the most efficient use of your mega slot, but could be a hilariously nasty surprise to the poor guy it ends up working against.
Double Dance(?) Mega Aggron
Aggron@Aggronite
252 Attack/ 252 Speed
Jolly
-Hone Claws
-Autotomise
-Iron Tail
-Aqua Tail* / Stone Edge
*unavailable pre-pokebank
Come in on a physical attacker and laugh as you start setting up speed boosts and attack and accuracy boosts. With +1 to accuracy Iron Tail becomes reliable and is Aggron's strongest overall STAB option. Then you just have to pick your poison as regards coverage - you can take stone edge and be dicked over by rival Steels or Aqua Tail and get dicked over by most water types. Either way, both appreciate the added accuracy and do solid damage to everything that doesn't resist at +1.
Maybe not a set that works the best to Aggron's strengths (still outsped by quite a lot at +2 speed) or the most efficient use of your mega slot, but could be a hilariously nasty surprise to the poor guy it ends up working against.
In theory an Automize set could work, but you need better coverage options-- double Tail coverage is completely walled by Water-types alone among other things. Dropping Hone Claws and going Automize+Iron Head+Earthquake+Fire/Ice Punch or something might be a better option, though that does still leave you walled by a fair few things.
That's true, that's why I pictured it being more of a surprise set than a team's primary sweeper or anything like that. It'd be better if Aggron had decent Fighting-type coverage to use with its Steel STAb, as that would give it very solid coverage overall (Still beat by Jellicent, Tentacruel, Volcarona, Charizard, a handful of others) but as it stands, it only has Superpower, which drops stats it doesn't want reduced, and Brick Break and Power-Up Punch which are too weak.
Hey, wait a second.
You could, in theory, transfer a Dynamicpunch Aggron all the way up from Gen 3 into XY. With one or more Hone Claws, it starts looking sort of reliable. It might just be stupid enough to work.
Autotomise Hone Claws Iron Tail Dynamic Punch MegaAggron, people. You'd all better watch out (or just bring jellicent)
Hey, wait a second.
You could, in theory, transfer a Dynamicpunch Aggron all the way up from Gen 3 into XY. With one or more Hone Claws, it starts looking sort of reliable. It might just be stupid enough to work.
Autotomise Hone Claws Iron Tail Dynamic Punch MegaAggron, people. You'd all better watch out (or just bring jellicent)
Elaborate
Nehhhh not really. One Hone Claws barely brings it up to around 66% acc, if I recall correctly, which is still pretty atrocious. So on top of Automize, you'd need a minimum of 2 Hone Claws to make it even remotely reliable-- 3 turns of setup in which something can come in and Fire Blast you to death, sleep you, paralyze you to negate Automize, or phaze you out. Not a good idea.
I haven't looked at the numbers themselves, but very likely those are EVs used to maximize the Sp. Defensive capabilities of Mega-Aggron. Such a number could simply be determined by HP * defensive stat to get an effective defensive level, but ultimately all you're really doing is making HP and Sp. Defense even.
And now after looking at the numbers they are incorrect. Maximizing sp defense would actually be-
4 HP/ 252 Attack/ 252 Sp. Defense Adamant
8 HP/ 252 Attack/ 248 Sp. Defense Careful
Tested Mega Aggron online today and, quite honestly, it sucked ass. I mean, seriously, his Sp. Def. is still quite bad (even with proper EV allocation) and he's too slow as well. Obviously he can take physical hits incredible well, but that's just not enough. His offensive power isn't THAT great either. Maybe it's useful for very specific battles, against only physical attackers...but that's just not going to happen. Also, he can be an excellent fairy killer, but I wasn't able to test that.
The biggest problem, actually, is that he was my Mega. I mean, a Mega Pokémon is suposed to be the lead, the strongest of your team, pretty much like Kangaskhan is for me. Maybe Mega pokémon aren't suposed to be defensive, but I want you guys to comment on that.
My Shao Khan was Adamant, 252 Atk/128 Sp. Def./128 HP. I used Heavy Slam/Earthquake/Thunder Wave/Autotomize.
The biggest problem, actually, is that he was my Mega. I mean, a Mega Pokémon is suposed to be the lead, the strongest of your team, pretty much like Kangaskhan is for me. Maybe Mega pokémon aren't suposed to be defensive, but I want you guys to comment on that.
My Shao Khan was Adamant, 252 Atk/128 Sp. Def./128 HP. I used Heavy Slam/Earthquake/Thunder Wave/Autotomize.
1: That's not the ideal EV spread for a specially defensive Aggron, or really, any kind of Aggron.
2: I guess a +2 speed move and Thunder Wave might work, I'm not a fan of them, but they certainly don't work together.
3: And most importantly, you're using Autotomize with Heavy Slam! If you're wondering why his attack power sucked, it's because of this.
It's very mix-and-match.
You always want Heavy Slam as your primary move - at least, until the actual meta is formed and we can tell what damage it does to what. But against the sheer majority of Pokémon, that's a perfect 120BP STAB!
Earthquake is the second best damaging move. It's got great coverage and great BP.
For third and fourth damaging moves if you want them, you go with either Rock Head/Stone Edge, Ice Punch, or Fire Punch, depending on what worries you most. Stone Edge works best if you hate Talonflame.
If you want speed, you have Rock Polish. Which is just like Autotomize but without crippling your attacking capabilities. Which is why I was mocking you earlier. But like I said, I'm not a fan of it.
There's curse, which is excellent on Aggron normally, but it leaves a glaring weakness on the Special Defense side. It depends on what your opponent does, really, but it's worth considering.
Then you have Dragon Tail, or Roar for against Fairies (you shouldn't need it). If you hate what your opponent sends out, you use this. Keep in mind that you'll always get hit at least once first though.
And finally there's Rest and Sleep Talk. It's a real gamble using this. Aggron really does have the defenses to survive the entire three turns against some opponents, but it's essentially limiting your attack coverage. I think Dragon Tail is the best second attack here, just because it prevents the opponent from taking advantage of your low attack.
As for EVs: Adamant, max Attack and HP for most sets. If you're particularly worried about Special Defense, switch HP for Sp.Def and maybe change to Careful. And if you're going ResTalk, then it's HP, Sp.Def, and either Impish or Careful, they're equally good.
EDIT: someone pointed out that Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock together works very well on a purely supportive Aggron.
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My Theodosius runs 248 HP/248 Def/8 Atk, Adamant, Iron Head/Stealth Rock/Earthquake/Drsgon tail and he pretty much eats the online metagame for breakfast. Aegislash? Blaziken? More like "stealth rock bait". EQ OHKOes Mega Blaziken ans Sword Aegislash, and doesn't get the attack drop on Kings Shield, and neither of them can 2HKO with Flare Blitz/Sacred Sword. On a predicted Kings Shield/any attack from MBlaziken, you can get rocks up then phase if they've been boosting or OHKO on a predicted attack, as I out slow most Aegislash I've encountered. Those guys are like the most common Mons I see online, too.
Someone should run Parashuffling defense calcs compared to Gyarados. We consider Gyarados very bulky for that role which he is, but Megagron has the potential to go WAY farther with filter and his inSANE Df. In this role max Spd and HP is probably the way to go. Otherwise I dont think he should try to sweep. He should use his naturally high physical bulk as the ultimate physical pivot and ruin opponents with paralysis and unique elemental moves to soften them up for a different sweeper later. Make him physically dedicated and make a new SkarmBliss combo with something like Specially dedicated Florges, Togekiss, Goodra or Gardevoir. The fairy types can take Fighting moves, Goodra laughs at Fire, Togekiss immune to Ground, and many have Wish or other status moves.
I've been trying out Megaggron online in-game to see what it can do with a 4 HP/252 Atk/252 SpDef spread, and from my experience, investing in Aggron's special defense isn't worth it. Adamant is pretty much required, since otherwise he doesn't deal enough damage, so Careful is out of the question, and even with max special defense IV and EVs, he still doesn't take special hits well enough to consider going for special defense, so you might as well dump his EVs into HP or defense. The only thing special defense EVs help with are Tyranitars carrying Fire Blast.
Agreed. I pair him with Infestation/Toxic/Rain Dance/Rest hydration!Goodra and they make a great defensive core (Aggron eats Steels, Poisons, Fairies, and Dragons for breakfast and appreciates fire damage reduction, while Goodra can kill any Special Attackers easily.)
And I've been testing out ResTalk. Even then, you're better off with Defense, there's just too many opponents that are purely physical in this new meta.
Against lower-ranked players, mind, so they weren't trying to take advantage of a (relatively) low Special Defense. It might not work so well against more experienced people.
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Think maybe aggron should just stay away from special defense and run sylveon as a sp. def wall buddy? They practically perfectly work together. I see no reason to sacrifice EV's into sp def, when it wont make much a difference.
Unless someone can confirm that 252/252 in HP/SpDef actually makes him very bulky? Otherwise, screw it and start building a team instead of the perfect mon.
Unless someone can confirm that 252/252 in HP/SpDef actually makes him very bulky? Otherwise, screw it and start building a team instead of the perfect mon.
A SpD focused Mega Aggron takes non-STAB SE damage from Heavy Special Attackers better but without reliable recovery (even as buffed as RestTalk is this gen) its still not great.
Any Special Attacking behmeoth packing STAB Fire Blast/Overheat/Focus Blast/Earth Power still 1-2HKO's the SpD set.
Aggron and Sylveon both suffer from Mixed attackers if they go straight Def or SpD respectively. That's why you see most stall Sylveon run Bold with 252 def.
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Just tried out the following Aggron in a few wifi battles
Aggron@Aggronite
Careful
252 HP/252SpD/4 Attack
-Dragon Tail
-Heavy Smash
-Rest
-Sleep talk
It failed miserably. My damage output was puny due to the tank setup, and this guy even was having trouble taking Tyrantrum's Crunches after 1 Dragon Dance. Then he got 2HKO'd by Mega Gyarados' Earthquake. I was hoping to be able to tank physical attackers all day, but they were just able to get set up even through the phazing and KO me.
Aggron@Aggronite
Careful
252 HP/252SpD/4 Attack
-Dragon Tail
-Heavy Smash
-Rest
-Sleep talk
It failed miserably. My damage output was puny due to the tank setup, and this guy even was having trouble taking Tyrantrum's Crunches after 1 Dragon Dance. Then he got 2HKO'd by Mega Gyarados' Earthquake. I was hoping to be able to tank physical attackers all day, but they were just able to get set up even through the phazing and KO me.
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This EV dilemma on Mega Aggron reminds me of Blissey's, but 37.1% less bulky at its best defense with the most common spread (If it's not an SE attack). At first, full investment in the weaker defense looks like a good idea to avoid OHKOs by powerful special attackers, but is it worth it or is Aggron just getting 2HKOed by more attacks than with full physical defense investment?
Welcome to the difference between a physically defensive and specially defensive Aggron. Tyrantrum's +1 Crunches do 25% instead of 32%, and Earthquake Mega Gyarados* does 34% instead of 42%. Dunno how you got 2HKO'd.
*I'd like to remind you that Mega Gyarados's attacks do an extra 33% damage to Aggron. For once, Mold Breaker is actually meaningful.
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Mega Aggron is a pure Steel type, so no Special Defense boost in Sand.
Not to mention both get absolutely murked by Ground and Fighting types... having a dual defensive core that shares weaknesses to two very common types is not a great choice.
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