Branching Out #1: Venusaur Discussion

[ADH]

#003 Venusaur
Base Stats: 80 HP / 82 Atk / 83 Def / 100 SAtk / 100 SDef / 80 Spd
Ability: Overgrow (when HP drops below 33% grass-type attacks are boosted by 1.5x)
Projected Tier: Borderline

Notable Physical Movepool

Seed Bomb

Earthquake

Rock Smash

Notable Special Movepool

Solarbeam

Energy Ball

Grass Knot

Leaf Storm

Sludge Bomb

Notable Support Movepool

Leech Seed

Sleep Powder

Worry Seed

Synthesis

Grasswhistle

Growth

Roar

Swords Dance

Safeguard

Charm

Light Screen

Curse

Venusaur is a pretty damn nifty Pokemon and is the first on my list of projected OU / BL Pokemon. This effort by me is to try to change the pace of RMT threads around here, since all of them pretty much feature the same Pokemon within a small level of variation. You see lots of AGmences, CBtars, and SDchomps without a great deal of variety (but there are a few people with good variety on there teams, like Phuquoph). Anyways, onto the discussion.

Venusaur was known in advance for walling the fuck out of Raikou, even HP Ice Raikou, and could out-stall it and even phaze it with Roar to keep it from CMing up. Venusaur is hurt by how few PP Synthesis has in D/P, but it can still be a great disabling Pokemon and work as an excellent team supporter, opening up weaknesses and softening the opponent. Its typing makes it neutral to Earthquake, which is unfortunate, but part-poison also makes it neutral to Megahorn and resist Close Combat, making it possible to handle Heracross somewhat with a physical defense-oriented EV spread (it still absolutely hated Megahorn). Let's take a look at some possible Venusaur movesets.

Venusaur @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)
EVs: 196 HP / 204 Spd / 104 SDef
Trait: Overgrow
-Sleep Powder
-Leech Seed / Sleep Talk
-Earthquake
-Leaf Storm

Fast sleep status beaten only by CS Gengar in OU, as far as no setup time goes. Possible Pokes from UU that can beat it are CS Ninetales and CS Rapidash, but I don't expect them to be around much. You can lead with this, as the only attack that a double-status CS Gengar has that hits Venusaur for neutral is Shadow Ball. If you think it'll status you then you can opt for Sleep Talk instead of a fast Leech Seed so you can get a move off on it, although it resists Leaf Storm and is immune to Earthquake. But hey, you have a 33% chance of putting Gengar to sleep too. Anyways, this also outspeeds Raikou and can break its substitutes every time with Earthquake while taking Thunderbolts, HP Grasses, or HP Ices decently. Leaf Storm surprises CG Starmie and beats the heck out of them. This works best with Wish support.

Venusaur @ Poison Sludge
Nature: Timid (+Spd -Atk)
EVs: 116 HP / 192 Def / 200 Spd
Trait: Overgrow
-Sleep Powder
-Synthesis
-Sludge Bomb
-Grass Knot

Can sometimes survive an adamant Heracross CB Megahorn, but the best time to bring it in is on a baited / predicted Close Combat with Heracross. You outspeed it and can Sleep Powder it or whatever's switching in. Sludge Bomb is for Tangrowth mostly, whereas Grass Knot is for the myraid resistors of Sludge Bomb and for being a cool STAB against rock types since it's almost always 120BP against them.

Venusaur @ Poison Sludge
Nature: Sassy (+SDef -Spd)
EVs: 252 HP / 132 Def / 124 SDef
-Curse
-Earthquake
-Rock Smash / Leaf Storm
-Synthesis

Curse sets are on their way out (except for Cursetar), but this could be worth a shot. Each Curse boosts its attack by 100, making Earthquake hurt a fair amount. Rock Smash would be for Weavile, who is OHKOed at +2, and Leaf Storm does nice damage to Rhyperior even in a sandstorm. Synthesis over Rest since Rest is suicidal in what the metagame looks like.

 

[Mekkah]

Venusaur is hurt by how few PP Synthesis has in D/P

Synthesis' 5-8PP is unchanged from Advance. And that's not his only problem: Venusaur simply is not Celebi with his 100 stats everywhere and Earthquake resistance, not to mention Synthesis gets owned by Sand Stream.

Venusaur is one of these reasons I think there should only be three tiers: Uber, Standard and UU. He's basically an average Pokemon: he can do his job pretty decently, but most standards cripple him badly and he isn't going to last due to a rather jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none stat distribution.

Still, Sleep Powder + Leech Seed is very, very annoying.

 

[ADH]

Synthesis' 5-8PP is unchanged from Advance. And that's not his only problem: Venusaur simply is not Celebi with his 100 stats everywhere and Earthquake resistance, not to mention Synthesis gets owned by Sand Stream.

Venusaur is one of these reasons I think there should only be three tiers: Uber, Standard and UU. He's basically an average Pokemon: he can do his job pretty decently, but most standards cripple him badly and he isn't going to last due to a rather jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none stat distribution.

Still, Sleep Powder + Leech Seed is very, very annoying.

Sleep Powder + Leech Seed would be so good if he only had more speed, because as it stands now with a Timid nature he can only shuffle opponents who just hover right above Heracross' speed. While that's useful, it takes Stealth Rock / Spikes to be most useful. If Celebi were absolutely allowed to be in OU I'd probably use it instead given how it does everything Venusaur does for the most part, only better. While Celebi is much easier to take out with the CB Pursuit advent and there actually being a good bug attack outside of Scissor Cross it's still pretty damn powerful and tough to tackle.

If Celebi were allowed in OU completely I'd run a Drapion all the time since it's one of the few amazing Celebi counters given its immunity to Psychic, resistance to Energy Ball / Grass Knot, and neutrality to Focus Bomb, along with packing a super-effective Night Slash / Crunch / Pursuit for it.

But I digress, this isn't about Celebi, it's about Venusaur. It admittedly has problems but it is certainly too good for UU and not the absolute best choice for OU sometimes. With 80 base speed, though, it can be damn annoying.

 

[Mekkah]

If everything below standard is allowed in the "new" UU Venusaur wouldn't be broken at all.

There's no real need to be fast for Sleep Powder by the way, he outspeeds Blissey, Skarmory, Magnezone, Swampert and tons of other slow and common Pokemon. After he gets that Sleep Powder in all he has to do is Leech Seed on the switch and he's already working on your nerves. At least, for me. I usually leave my sleeping Pokemon in and get it seeded, then switch out, because having your counter seeded is really annoying.

 

[ADH]

Hah, Mekkah double-posted XD

Fast Sleep Powder is mostly to hit extremely fast leads like Jolteon / Aerodactyl, but admittedly you don't need to be fast to be smart and hit them on the switch.

I would be quite pleased if there were three tiers as well in Ubers, Standard, and Under-used, instead of this Borderline nonsense which essentially clauses the use of some Pokemon in the UU environment. I think that a lot of UU has advanced enough to allow for the use of such Borderline Pokemon in it, and NU is already allowed in UU, so it'd just be a nice conglomeration of tiers that would make for a large and varied metagame.

 

[SDShamshel]

I think it's also important to remember that the Venusaur gets STAB on Sludge Bomb running off 100 base special attack, in order to put the hurt on fellow grass types who are immune to Leech Seed.

The only ones who wouldn't be as bothered by this are fellow Grass/Poisons and Cradily, and all of them would take more damage from your Sludge Bomb than your Earthquake.

 

[West]

Venasaur would work great on TSS-ish teams.

Leech Seed/Roar or Energy Ball or Grass Knot/Sleep Powder/Sludge Bomb is what I'd use.

 

[TenshiOni]

Seeing as he's my favorite Pokemon, I'd love to see a Venusaur see some use.

I'd run something like this:

Venusaur @ Poison Sludge
Nature: Timid (+Spd, -Atk)
EVs: 196 HP / 204 Spd / 104 SDef
-Sleep Power
-Leech Seed
-Sludge Bomb
-Leaf Storm/Energy Ball/Frenzied Plant

 

[Hyra]

Eh, Venusuar has one problem as a Special Wall: Psychic Weak!!! Yah, I tried a team in ADV with him as my Special wall, got slammed so hard by Jirachi and Alakazam. With Azelf around, ouch.

Anyways, Special Sludge Bomb is amazing. Then again, Raikou could just CM up in front of you, negating the usefulness of Sludge Bomb. No Poison Stab makes Venusaur either lose to Grass Types or Raikou, both of which it previously walled.

It might not even make Borderline this generation. Think of it like this, could Venusaur compete with Rampardos, Staraptor and such, the envisioned Borderline/Low OU.

 

[ΩDonut]

Venusaur is actually a pretty great special wall in Advance, at least as far as Zapdos\Jolteon\Raikou are concerned. Since nowadays those mostly carry HP Grass for Swampert, it walls them fairly well.

Venusaur (F) @ Leftovers ** Hebona
Trait: Overgrow
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 62 Spd / 96 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Leech Seed
- Roar
- Sleep Powder

She was a great starter, walling those HP Grass Electrics like a champ and Roaring out Sub+BP\CM users. I don't expect this set to be as useful in DP, though, for reasons that have been made pretty clear already.

 

[Pneuma]

The problem with Venusaur is that it can either be a physical or a special defensive type, not both at the same time.

Venusaur@Lefties **VENUCHARMMMM**
EVs: 252HP/252Def/4SpAtk
Bold (+Def, -Atk)
-Leech Seed
-Protect/Sub
-Charm
-Sludge Bomb

Come in on most physical hits, Charm them and force them to switch into Leech Seeds. Protect is there to lock CBers into their move and to milk leech seed/leftovers recovery. Sludge bomb hits what Leech Seed does not.

For this set versus Heracross:
383Atk (max) Heracross Earthquake or Stone Edge (same damage) on 364HP/291Def (max/max) Venusaur: 25-29%
383Atk (max) Heracross Megahorn on 364HP/291Def (max/max) Venusaur: 45-53%
383Atk (max) Heracross Close Combat on 364HP/291Def (max/max) Venusaur: 22-26%

CBMegahorn hurts, the rest can be tanked (especially after a Charm).


For a special wall idea, it DOES get Light Screen as an egg move alongside Synthesis and Amnesia (overkill but could work).

 

[Misty]

I find it funky that it gets Light Screen by egg move but not TM, lol.

Sleep Powder, Sludge Bomb, Leech Seed, filler is a good set, with Sludge Bomb covering some annoying grasses that are immune to Leech Seed. Fun fact - Sludge Bomb 2hkos Celebi on average :]

Mekkah, I'm not sure I see your point about tiers... If Venusaur is UU, it will be UU. Terminating the BL and NU tiers doesn't change that - if it's too good for UU, it will just be "standard".

 

[Beta]

Earthquake
Curse/Swords Dance
Seed Bomb
Sleep Powder


This is pretty much what Venasaur can do if you don't want Leech Seed.

You can start off with Sleep, and Curse on the switch to build defense and attack, (or Swords Dance for more attack), and start hitting opponents hard.

Seed Bomb does nuetral to Gyarados, does nuetral vs Gabby, and deals decent damage with 120 BP. Earthquake covers steels/poisons/fires/Empoleon, etc. as well.

(Flying type will pose Problems as they are resistant/immune to both attacks, except Gliscor/Aerodactyl/etc., but with a Swords Dance or 2, it will make up for its weakened attack)

Vensaur can be used as an anti bulky water, especially when it uses Physical attacks over Special ones.

 

[Great Sage]

I've always hated Venusaur very very much because although theoretically a lot of things can beat it, it's just extremely annoying because of Leech Seed and Sleep Powder. And although I don't discourage variety in the metagame, people should stop trying to force it.

 

[cresselium]

Actually I find this Venusaur set quite kinky.

@ Leftovers/Poison Sludge
- Amnesia
- Ingrain
- Sludge Bomb
- Energy Ball/Giga Drain

At the end of a Baton Pass chain. Energy Ball for power, Giga Drain for just frustrating the opponent.

 

[General Tso]

I prefer Energy Ball on that second moveset just because you're not always going to run into heavy pokemon. Bold might help in some situations as well, Venusaur isn't really going to outspeed much even though I love this guy :(

 

[Brawley]

Venusaur @ Poison Sludge
-Sleep Power
-Leech Seed
-Sludge Bomb
-Growth
Meh, best I could think of this late.

 

[Mekkah]

If you ain't got anything special to bump an old thread with, then don't do it.