CAP 12 CAP 1 - Part 3 -(Secondary Type Discussion)

[Gerard]

I was a big supporter of Flying/Posion, but i may change my vote

Why? I have found that F/poison is not the best defensive typing, altough it does have nice resistances, the facta that it still has a rock-weekness is really bad since every Dory/terakion/sand genie/etc.. carries a Stone edge so he can hit Flying types, also the bug 4x is retained and you also get neutrality to SR which is good, but the main reason is that even if Poison is a good defensive typing, it doesn't treaten anything importan, no Poison move is going to scar dory nor any of it's friends (ground being ressistant to Poison and steal...) Fighting packs a SE move against those, also a way to deal with the more common steel/rock types is better than kill Grass (which you already do with Flying), and a way to attrack Psiquic types while still being able to kill the Fighting types and the steal types is a great thing, aside from psyquics you don't loose a big thing, not even flying dragons carry STAB flying (outside of dragonite in the rain) and this could be a way to scare big treats and at least have a powerful Stab option, while at the same time helping your team to regain the control or "momentum" of the match (which is what this Cap is all about)

The only thing that i have against Steel and other great defensive tyes is that loosing the fighting ressistance is not the best, and you shoud have a wayto deal with set-up sweepers and walls, not by yourself but with help and being able to scare or kill the opposing treath, from all of the new treaths that is even a good ofensive still defensive type and a good STABs options

 

[Deck Knight]

And it does what against Excadrill? To have to switch against Excadrill is huge.

Edit: ..and Tyranitar, who also resists those attacks AND packs Pursuit. I'm not sure Ghost is the way to go if we are looking to subvert these threats. The best thing it has going for it right now is Will-O-Wisp, but Jellicent does this better imo.

Of the types being discussed, only Fighting in any way tempers the threat of Excadrill. Again I don't want to delve into movepool here, but Ghosts are commonly identified by their bag of tricks, which usually includes Will-O-Wisp. Needless to say if that is decided down the road, Excadrill wants little to do with switching into something that can burn it.

More interestingly is that Excadrill have been supplementing their movepool with Return since Rock Slide is good coverage, but lacking in the Base Power department. Ghost/Flying is of course immune to Ground/Normal. In any case, as dangerous as Excadrill is, the opportunity costs Fighting brings are significant. What does it do against Metagross and Reuniclus for example? Psychic's no longer non-existent as an attacking type, Psycho Shock alone has brought a lot of them into popularity.

Same with Tyranitar, who also hates WoW. Hidden Power Fighting isn't great, but Fighting/Ghost/Flying is acceptable for both neutral and super-effective coverage. Every Pokemon has threats it has to deal with, and the common thread with most of Ghost/Flying's major paper counters is a severe weakness to burn.

 

[Stratos]

I'm going to say Ghost, for mostly the reasons Deck Knight had. Also, I just want to point out Drifblim, which is definitely the #1 Momentum pokemon in all of UU, full stop, just showcasing how this typing can be used to serious advantage.

 

[reachzero]

Lurk more. The consensus was defensive momentum. Flying/Fighting does not encourage a defensive playstyle at all to me. In the CAP playtesting period when presumably everyone will be using CAP 1, an offensive CAP 1 would likely be successful since it would beat defensive variants of itself most likely. This is not the goal. Therefore I do not prefer Flying/Fighting (although I do prefer it to many other alternatives).

By "the consensus was defensive momentum", you could mean two things. One is that I said it should be. If that is what you meant, you are incorrect, I never said anything like that. I am open to allowing the community to decide whether we want to take a more offensive or defensive approach in the polls. What I HAVE said is that I do not want us to produce a Pokemon that will set up and sweep, or switch in at will and blast massive holes in teams. I am open to the idea of an offensively based Pokemon that has significant support utility, like Heatran.

The other possibility is that you meant the community has reached such a consensus. That would definitely be poll jumping, since no such consensus was reached in concept assessment, and we haven't reached the base stat phase yet.

Either way, offense is a factor for this Pokemon. Just not as much of a factor as if our primary concerns were being very fast and very strong.

 

[Dracolosse]

WARNING : First post in CAP, might not be as developped and smart as others.

All these types have their advantages and their drawbacks, obviously. One of the central points is the Rock weakness. The real problem isn't the SR weakness in my opinion, it is the actual Rock weakness. The Primary typing was designed partly to be able to resist hits from Conkelldur, Excadrill, Landorus... If they can slaughter us with Stone Edge/ Rock Slide, what is the point of having chosen Flying as a primary type in the first place? In fact, almost every Ground or Fighting mon carries Rock coverage moves. This is why I think we cannot afford to have a weakness to such a common attacking type -common on the Pokemon we actually wanted to put pressure on!- if we want to try to gain momentum.

This is why only Fighting and Steel are viable in that regard.

Steel

Advantages
-Extremely solid with a type that COMPLETELY shuts down some threats. Skarm has been demonstrating this for 4 Generations.

-Dragon resistance is as important as ever, we want to be able to regain momentum even if a +1 Mence is currently Outraging away.

Drawbacks
-Poor STABs : unless our CAP has great offense and Nidoking coverage, it'll be hard to directly threaten the opponent, which is what gaining momentum is all about.

-Weakness to random Fire moves carried by many for Nattorei, Foretress, etc, is not good if you think you have a free turn to set up something. Fire is probably the most common random type thrown in for coverage. Surprise SE hits often means loss of momentum.

-Magnezone can switch in very safely with double resistance to both STABs, and STAB T-Bolt, much like Skarmory. We don't want CAP to be forced to carry Shed Shell
or fall to the common Dragon-Zone strategy.

We could fix some of these drawbacks by :

-The fire weakness is crippling but if CAP had Thick Fat, or Flash Fire, it would completely wall Dragons, generally considered top notch sweepers, which can be the ultimate way of reversing momentum.

-With enough base Speed and an escape move (U-Turn, Baton Pass...) Zone could be a non issue.

Fighting

Advantages :
-Threatening STABs : this is the big one. Such good coverage with STAB moves lets you keep pressure on your opponent, which is critical. You can gain momentum by smart double switching to target an obvious weakness, but you need to be able to force the opponent out, and that's what the mighty Fighting/Flying coverage accomplishes. Directly threatening Excadrill -an important threat to say the least, seeing it is factored in by nearly every poster- and a truckload of others is priceless.

-Fighting resist : pretty awesome for Conkeldurr, Lucario, Blaziken.... It also resist Zuruzukin's hailed STAB combo, and can counter some pokemon that rely solely on these two types.

Drawbacks
-Not nearly as many resistances as with Steel, struggle with powerful Dragons, mainly.

This could be fixed by Ice moves and high speed, maybe.


Overall, I feel Fighting /Flying seems more adapted to the metagame, blocking more effectively the momentum gained by common opposing threats, but both are definitely viable, provided we make sure it operates in a different field than Skarm.

 

[Flarephoenix332]

Okay, I'll throw my light weight behind two types right now:

Grass - Flying/Grass is interesting. This CAP will definitely need a way to recover some HP somehow, and since it is part Flying Roost will probably be suggested, Grass maintains Ground-resist while shedding the Rock Weakness and cutting the Ice weakness to only 2x. Sure, Grass isn't a big offensive stat, but it hits Excradill neutrally, something Flying can't say (and Flying is a pretty good offensive type with the rise of Fighting-types).

Ghost - Deck Knight said everything I could and more about this type combination. A short recap of what he said:

~ Weaknesses funneled like Thermopylae. Rock, Ghost, and Dark are glaring weaknesses, but no one carries more than one of those types at a time.

~ Puncher's Chance is nulled. Ghost is immune to Fighting, meaning a Roosting CAP1 still isn't touched by Fighting.

~ The Meathead and the Brainiac. Flying/Ghost threatens both Conckledurr and Reuniclus with STAB attacks, even though they both carry super-effective attacks against CAP more often then not (but neither are light on their feet).

Ghost is my favorite secondary typing, just like it was during the main poll. Again, Deck Knight definitely talked about it a lot better than I could in his post.

 

[Attract]

Of the types being discussed, only Fighting in any way tempers the threat of Excadrill. Again I don't want to delve into movepool here, but Ghosts are commonly identified by their bag of tricks, which usually includes Will-O-Wisp. Needless to say if that is decided down the road, Excadrill wants little to do with switching into something that can burn it.

More interestingly is that Excadrill have been supplementing their movepool with Return since Rock Slide is good coverage, but lacking in the Base Power department. Ghost/Flying is of course immune to Ground/Normal. In any case, as dangerous as Excadrill is, the opportunity costs Fighting brings are significant. What does it do against Metagross and Reuniclus for example? Psychic's no longer non-existent as an attacking type, Psycho Shock alone has brought a lot of them into popularity.

Same with Tyranitar, who also hates WoW. Hidden Power Fighting isn't great, but Fighting/Ghost/Flying is acceptable for both neutral and super-effective coverage. Every Pokemon has threats it has to deal with, and the common thread with most of Ghost/Flying's major paper counters is a severe weakness to burn.

It might be a little unfair to say that Ghost is better because it fairs better against X threat while Fighting is poor against X (Reuniclus). You could just as easily swing the point in favour of Fighting for Y threat (Tyranitar). I'm not trying to say that Fighting/Flying is superior because of it's STABs, but it checks a lot more while being stopped less that Ghost/Flying. Plus, we both know that HP Fighting still won't OHKO a Tyranitar meanwhile MixTar will 2HKO you, regardless of a burn. Fun Fact: 252 Modest Life Orb Ninetails can't OHKO a TTar in Sand with HP Fighting.

Also, it's a lot to say that the Ghost/Flying CAP should pack HP Fighting for coverage, when Fighting/Flying needs no coverage moves. All in all, isn't it better to be able to hit neutrally more often than to hit supereffective less often (why BoltBeam was so popular (bad example, Gyarados and Dragons have always been a threat)). Fighting provides better neutral coverage, and just because its typical for Ghosts to have sneaky movepools, there's nothing saying this poke can't have diversity. The movepool seems to be the major selling point for Ghost, and also it's escape from what would otherwise completely stop it.

 

[bubbly]

Ghost is for a great number of reasons the superior typing. I agree pretty much completely with Deck Knight's assessment.

Just to rehash my argument for main Ghost typing, spinblocking is one of the best possible ways of creating momentum on a defensive team. Your opponent will lose unless they remove your hazards; therefore, they're extremely predictable and are essentially playing by your rulebook.

The Pursuit weakness is a pretty poor argument against Ghost/Flying. First of all, the CAP will prob have at least a fair amount of physical bulk. Second, being a Ghost type it will almost certainly get Will-o-wisp or some other option. Third, even if the Pursuiter comes in unscathed and Pursuits the CAP for a KO, its still giving you a completely free turn of set up on the common Choiced Pursuit users.

 

[Energy Storm]

I think Ghost would be a very viable option, other than the fact that it receives a painful weakness to Pursuit and Volt Change.

Basically, Rock/Fighting/Dragon/Ground are possibly the most dominant offensive moves currently, however, as a momentum Pokemon, it must be able to switch in easily to threaten out common offensive threats. With the plethora of immunities that Ghost offers, it's much easier to force out things like Reuniclus, as Deck Knight said. These days, Psychic is a much more common typing, with examples like Latias, Reuniclus, and Espeon running rampant here and there, and Ghost counters them extremely well.

Steel's hard to give up because of the resistance to Dragon, especially with Garchomp and Sally all over the place, however, again, gets walled pretty badly by most things, as Steel and Flying don't really give the best coverage.

Fighting misses out on some essential defensive resistances, such as Dragon, as Dracolosse stated. It's a good offensive typing that can maintain heavy pressure on its opponents and take out Pokemon like Conkeldurr and Excadrill, and hits almost every Pokemon in the standard metagame for neutral damage, which is especially good now that Rotom-A has lost its Ghost typing and is no longer such a dominant presence. Unfortunately, with Fighting, we have L@tios, Sally, and things like Thundurus and Landorus switching in with a lot more ease, which can backfire quite badly.

I think that Grass, personally, wouldn't be so good as a defensive Pokemon. Other than a Rock weakness, it becomes vulnerable to Ice (4x weakness), Fire, and Bug, which are often used as coverage moves (hello there Volcorona). However, you do get the plus of immunity to Leech Seed, however, that barely offsets the bad typing.

Honestly, I don't think I'm actually doing anything but repeating what everyone else here said, but my vote will go to Ghost.

 

[NeoSeth]

There are two types that are really standing out to me: Fighting and Poison.

Fighting has the distinction of being SR neutral, which is awesome. There's also the fearsome STAB combination, which Staraptor used to great effect, even without STAB on Close Combat! That lets you help to force a switch, considering that Doryuuzu does NOT want to stay in on something that can KO it. Speaking of which, Doryuuzu's main attacks do jacks*** to this CAP, except for Rock Slide, which isn't all that powerful. The resistances to Bug and Dark, however, aren't that appealing in this metagame. Being weak to Psychic is also a problem (WHAT?) with Reinculus running around.

Poison - Look at those 4x resists to Fighting, Bug and Grass. Let's also look at Crobat, a Pokemon that is a great momentum-gainer with this typing. Offensively, however, this doesn't do much. It's also weak to SR and Psychic, which could severely dampen this CAP's chances. However, being able to completely nuder Breloom has it's advantages.

Of the two, I have a hard time picking. I'll be watching this thread to decide which typing I vote for. Ghost is also available, since Spinblocking is so good, as well as the Fighting immunity and beating Reniculus.

 

[Chou Toshio]

Unless we're using Magic Guard (geh . . .) immediately throw out anything not named Fighting, Ground or Steel. SR weak on a Pokemon who is supposed to switch in and change/create momentum? SR weak on a pivot Pokemon? >_________>

I don't care if people say SR is not as popular. The only popular SR weak pokemon in the current OU are ones that spend a ton of their time healing themselves with Roost/Rest, or are named Thunderus (who's kind of a burn-myself-out-sweeper, not at ALL suited towards what we are trying to achieve).

Now Flying/Fighting, Flying/Steel and Flying/Ground . . . none of these are spectacularly intriguing. Flying/Steel and Flying/Ground are both well represented in OU, with Gliscor, Skarm and Landolos all respectively already achieving goals similar to the very concept we're aiming at. If you need a defensive pivot, gliscor. Offensive pivot, landlos. Both of those learn U-Turn to boot. If you want a poke who'll just take generate immediate advantage off of the switches (momentum) it forces, use Skarm and its Spikes.

Fighting/Flying on the other hand, is lacking in useful resistances. 2x dark, 2x Fighting, 4x bug, immune ground . . . I mean it's not bad, but it's nothing spectacular. Except for Fighting and Ground, which are kinda overlapping types resisted by every Flying type around, Dark and Bug are useful but hardly centralizing offensive types in OU. As an offensive type-combo, it's incredible-- Fighting/Flying has no debilitating weaknesses, is immune to Spikes/T-Spikes, and has a ridiculous STAB combo. I have no doubt that it would be an incredible sweeper-- but as a momentum changing Pokemon? I doubt it. Fighting/Flying will not have a whole lot of opportunities to easily switch into battle.

Out of the above, I'd have to say Steel is the best option. No doubt it will have to rely on some sort of un-stab move for coverage alongside Flying, but that shouldn't be too hard to arrange. At least, a fast/offensive Steel/Flying type is something the metagame has not seen before, and we'll find whether good defensive typing = good offensive typing, even without an overwhelming STAB. Let's face it, Pokemon like Metagross and Jirachi who lack particularly good STAB offensive types have kind of faded in the meta as offensive threats.

If we give it an un-STAB Fighting move to use alongside its Flying-STAB, it'll perform fairly well offensively.

Now, I'll explain why I support Water. Many of these Pokémon will have trouble switching into a Water/Flying CAP (think of Gliscor/Excadrill/Landorus switching into Gyarados, for example). Also, there's probably only two defined switch-in to this mon among the most used Pokémon: Ferrothorn and Rotom-A. While certainly threatening, both the pokes create much less momentum than the aforementioned Ground or Psychic shenanigans, and allow the CAP user to control the flow of the match more reliably.

For these reasons, I support Water as a top choice for a secondary type for CAP.

Wait what? Ferrothorn and Rotom-A can spam Spikes and W-o-W respectively-- each time you allow them to switch in is decidedly game-changing. Well, Rotom-A is completely shut down by Lati@s, but Ferrothorn for sure is not a Pokemon most teams want to just let come in willy-nilly. :/

@Deck-- you make some good arguments, but frankly all that seems trumped by the fact that you're expecting a Pokemon that's (A) cut down by SR and (B) Destroyed by Pursuit to play any sort of long-lasting role like a momentum building/pivot Pokemon should. The resulting Poke has to be fairly comfortable switching into and out of battle-- Flying/Ghost does not accomplish this unless we do some serious anti-meta tweaking (like the ability to outspeed scarf-tar and OHKO all other tar while using Regeneration/Magic Guard to deal with SR).

 

[Zebstrika]

A somewhat less discussed type is Water.

While it loses that resistance to Grass, it's not a big deal. It still resists the second STAB of the three main Grass types (Ferrothorn, Breloom and Virizion) so if you can lure those out instead you can get an easy switch in.
Losing a weakness to Ice is very good, and with just two weaknesses, it becomes very easy to outpredict the opponent and switch in something like Excadrill or Magnezone and annihilate the attacker. It's even easier because the pokemon will lure in Electric more than Rock. First, it takes twice as much damage from an Electric typed attack, and second, either you go without STAB on your Rock attack or you risk huge damage from a Water attack. This is good because there are four abilities, one type and one item that can absorb and/or be immune to Electric attacks.
For resistances gained, Water and Fire are quite common. Specially based choiced pokemon (especially Chandelure in the Dream World tier) often carry Fire attacks, usually for nailing Steels like Ferrothorn or Scizor who would otherwise wall the pokemon's STABs and other coverage moves. Pokemon like Magnezone and Latios do this a lot. Water attacks were more common with rain teams (but you would have to be careful for Thunder), but at least Milotic now gets Dragon Tail (before you argue I'll say that I use it) and Jellicent exists.

Offensively, Water pairs very well with Flying. This is good as it can force out more pokemon, but it leaves less safe switch-ins that don't give you that free turn for momentum. Water and Flying together are only resisted by Empoleon, Lanturn and Wash Rotom, three uncommon Water typed pokemon (and also Dialga and Zekrom). Water gives access to Scald, and usually Ice moves (but all three Flying+Water resists also resist Ice).

 

[Attract]

For those who are worrying about Fighting's Psychic weakness (Deck Knight):
This is actually easily exploited, which is in fact a boost to the CAP's design. In the case of Latios, almost all are Choiced, so a switch to a Dark type would be easy and would force a free switch. The common Calm Mind/Refresh Latias doesn't even use its Psychic STAB, so that's not an issue any more than it is any other poke's issue. The only Psychic poke that should threaten Fighting/Flying should be Reuniclus, because it has the freedom to switch moves or Calm Mind. This poke is supposed to be mortal, not be able to stand up against everything. Regardless, if it so happens to get it, U-Turn would help the Fighting/Flying poke out of almost any Psychic situation it finds itself in while also continuing the teams momentum.

For those who say Fighting/Flying isn't defensive enough (Chou Toshio):
Compared to Steel, the only reasonable resists Steel has against it is, in all honesty, Dragon, and maybe Psychic. The cost of this is neutrality to Fighting, which is a real bane. Skarmory is only able to stand up to Conkeldurr (if it even can) because it's defense is ridiculous and it can Whirlwind the problem away.

Steel would NOT be a useful type. This CAP cannot afford to lose its resist to Fighting, one of the top 3 attack types in the metagame unless it is heavily defensive. This limits the CAP while not adding anything super important defensively or STAB-wise. It also gains the Fire weakness, which makes it more or less useless against a Sun team, and doesn't provide a Water resist, so it isn't any better than Fighting against those teams. The Dragon resist is even mitigated by having Dragons who carry moves to hit Ferrothorn. All in all, Steel adds nothing defensively or offensively that Fighting does not.

Fighting/Flying has the Rock neutrality, the Dark resist, and potentially has an answer to Psychic types in the form of U-Turn. It's STABS provide excellent neutral coverage. What more could a poke that has to come in, force a switch, and then fulfill a task need?

 

[Erick]

I like Fighting the best, but Ghost and Water are also great.

Beyond removing a Stealth Rock weakness, Fighting removes a weakness to Rock-type moves that some common users of Ground (Excadrill, Landlos, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Gliscor) and Fighting-type moves (Machamp, Conkeldurr, Infernape, Blaziken, Lucario, Terrakion) that this Pokemon wants to switch into tend to run for coverage. With Fighting as a secondary typing, most of them, besides maybe HP Ice Landlos, won't be able to do a lot to you, and will have to switch out. Fighting is also a great STAB, and can threaten the previously mentioned Tyranitar, Excadrill, Lucario, and Terrakion, as well as plenty of other Pokemon.

Ghost exchanges the Fighting resist for a Fighting immunity, which is invaluable in a metagame filled with powerful Fighting types, just a few of which I mentioned earlier. Something else invaluable Ghost typing provides is spinblocking, one of the best opportunities to gain momentum. Unfortunately, the two most common Rapid Spinners, Excadrill and Starmie, can threaten with Rock, Ice, and Electric moves, but Excadrill can't do much besides use Rock Slide, and Starmie itself is threatened by Ghost-type moves.

Water allows you to threaten Ground types you switch in on. Similarly, Water is great for switching in on common Fire types, namely Blaziken and Infernape, but also Heatran, Volcarona, and others. Lastly, weaknesses are narrowed down to two, making it a bit easier to predict your opponent's switch-ins.

 

[Woodchuck]

My favorite is Fighting.
Firstly, there has never been a Fighting/Flying type and, unlike with types like Flying/Ground and Flying/Water, this pokemon won't have as much competition. Yes, it's been stated already, but Fighting gives Flying a crucial SR neutrality. I know that reachzero said that an SR weakness is the end of the world, but it's more than that. Many threats that this pokemon could help gain momentum from, especially Fighting and Ground types, carry a Rock-typed move as a secondary typing. Picking Fighting and Flying gives us a nice set of resistances that will give us versatility in later choices about the CAP, rather than being locked in to a particular role.
Also, Fighting/Flying is an attacking combination largely absent from the current OU metagame. A pokemon carrying Fighting/Flying could be able to gain momentum on some walls that can't deal with this combination as well as Fighting/Rock, a more common combination. Flying actually carries excellent neutral coverage.
I believe Flying/Fighting would give this CAP the versatility that is needed to successfully create a Momentum CAP, as we haven't completely figured out how to make a momentum pokemon; versatility is a must at this point.

Edit: There's been discussion on whether a Pursuit and SR weakness together can hurt this CAP's effectiveness. There are two pokemon that I can think of right now that share those traits: Victini and Drifblim. Neither of them are particularly popular in OU.
Also, Ghost/Flying seems a bit redundant of a typing as:
1) Most ghosts get Levitate.
2) The only resistance gained over pure Ghost is a Grass resistance if the ghost already has levitate.
3) Flying adds weaknesses to Rock, Electric, and Ice
4) Flying is not a particularly helpful dual STAB for a Ghost-type as Ghost already has excellent neutral coverage that is better paired with Steel.
5) Ghost and Flying don't actually cancel out any of each other's weaknesses.

What I'm saying is, if we wanted to make a Ghost-type, then we shouldn't have voted flying.

 

[capefeather]

RE: Attract's post

The thing is, CAP 1 is already "mortal" almost no matter what now due to the Flying typing. Thundurus can at least revenge switch, and Zapdos will probably wall it as well. Even assuming that losing to Reuniclus is fine (which I don't think is the case), there are several other Psychic-types who have shown themselves to be very dangerous with both offensive and support moves (Deoxys-S, Mew, etc.). Even defensive Psychics like Slowbro could potentially beat Flying/Fighting CAP 1 at its own game, forcing it to use its Flying STAB and switching in a bulky Steel(/Psychic or Flying perhaps). I'm not saying that Fighting is a bad choice because of this, but we really need to stop downplaying the power of Psychic-types in this metagame.

You say, "This CAP cannot afford to lose its resist to Fighting." But can it afford to lose to a Fighting-type's coverage moves? Most Fighting-type moves are STAB. Switching into these Fighting-types is going to be shaky no matter which typing we choose, and Steel at least acknowledges the Ice-type weakness.

You also talk about sun. What is Flying/Fighting doing to sun that Flying/Steel isn't? Flying hits every "sun abuser" at least neutrally, anyway, and Flying/Fighting probably won't like boosted Fire moves. Besides, I thought you said that CAP 1 was supposed to be "mortal".

 

[Sambobz]

side-by-side type comparison

thought this would be helpful to put them all side by side.
so far the most well thought-out types are as follows:
Ghost,

Hide

I'm rallying around Ghost.

Flying/Ghost does indeed have a lot of weaknesses, however it possesses 3 immunities, and is the only type combination that will substantially alter momentum in favor of Stall Teams by acting as a spin blocker.

Consider the following strong points of a Flying/Ghost combination:

Three Immunities:

It goes without saying that an immunity to Rapid Spin and Fighting Attacks generates a lot of momentum if you can lock an opponent into those attacks, which in all likelihood will be an option for a concept based on Momentum. Taking 0 damage when switching into two very common attack types and a third attack typing that is becoming increasingly more common is the best thing a Pokemon seeking to change match momentum can hope for.

Has vulnerability most often to only one coverage attack on a given opponent.

Rock, Ghost, and Dark attacks are fairly common coverage attacks, but most Pokemon only carry one of them. Excadrill has been running Return more and more and while Rock Slide is a threat, there are multiple ways to deal with a quick Rock Slide using a combination of Stats and Ability. There's also Shadow Claw which sees even less use. Conkeldurr may be the exception as it can possess Stone Edge and Payback, but Payback no longer doubles damage on the switch-in, so its less of a sure thing. Moreover, Conkeldurr is more likely to use Mach Punch to finish a threat or Drain Punch when it it low on health to keep tanking, and these are ideal opportunities that only Ghost/Flying can exploit to turn a game around. A resisted Conkeldurr Mach Punch or Drain Punch still hurts, and Flying by itself ensures Stone Edge hits for neutral damage at worst.

Hits the vast majority of Steel-types for Neutral damage.

We do not want CAP1 to be a sweeper necessarily, however having neutral coverage against common metagame threats is very important. Flying has neutral coverage against Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress, Excavalier, Durant, and Lucario. Ghost adds Metagross, Jirachi, and Bronzong to that list, and unlike Flying/Fighting, doesn't open up a weakness to Psychic.

Threatens Reuniclus and Conkeldurr simultaneously.

While both threats have coverage attacks they can utilize against Ghost/Flying, The typing hits both of them super-effectively with STAB attacks. With Psychic and Fighting both rising to prominence, being able to hit both while being weak to neither is a huge benefit. Psychic itself is experiencing somewhat of a Renaissance, and Ghost can strike Latias, Latios, Espeon, and Sigilyph effectively as well.

Remains invulnerable to Fighting during Roost

Yes, I know Movepool is not decided and will not be for some time, however this is possibly Ghost/Flying's greatest situational advantage. It works perfectly with the Imperviousness trait by ridding Flying of its 3 troublesome weaknesses while only opening it up to assault from one dangerous attack type (Ground) instead of two (Ground and Fighting). Dark and Ghost are common coverage moves, but present nowhere near the general threat level that Psychic (Flying/Fighting) and Fire (Flying/Steel) open up.

As far as the CAP Process goes, having a lot of weaknesses but some great core strengths opens up a lot more leeway for stats and abilities. Ghost/Flying is a type that exemplifies high-risk, high-reward and forces opponents to do specific things to counter it. Moreover many threats cannot realistically be handled even with nuetrality. Fighting/Flying may be nuetral to Landorus Stone Edge, but as mentioned earlier Landorus's Earthquakes can break through resistances. Nuetralities are not enough, and with a main typing of Flying, Rock attacks will always be a problem. Finally, Ghost/Flying's unique advantages lend itself well to using movepool to maximize its typing quirks. It will lure in a lot of threats that believe thier coverage move can handle it, and they will be in for a nasty surprise when CAP1 is behind a Sub. Sub + Encore for example is very potent when you have 3 immunities to work with, and Pokemon with 5 types of attacks think themselves threatening enough to deal with you.

Going back a bit to point two, since Ghost/Flying is usually only vulnerable to one coverage attack, you can tell almost instantly what an opponent's set is depending on how it tries to handle CAP 1. Combined with Disable (or Encore as mentioned above) it can force yet another switch and deal more residual damage to an opponent. tl;dr, Ghost/Flying's weaknesses lure in and help identify many threats from behind a Sub, and its strengths allow it the maximum number of chances to come in for itself.

Of the types being discussed, only Fighting in any way tempers the threat of Excadrill. Again I don't want to delve into movepool here, but Ghosts are commonly identified by their bag of tricks, which usually includes Will-O-Wisp. Needless to say if that is decided down the road, Excadrill wants little to do with switching into something that can burn it.

More interestingly is that Excadrill have been supplementing their movepool with Return since Rock Slide is good coverage, but lacking in the Base Power department. Ghost/Flying is of course immune to Ground/Normal. In any case, as dangerous as Excadrill is, the opportunity costs Fighting brings are significant. What does it do against Metagross and Reuniclus for example? Psychic's no longer non-existent as an attacking type, Psycho Shock alone has brought a lot of them into popularity.

Same with Tyranitar, who also hates WoW. Hidden Power Fighting isn't great, but Fighting/Ghost/Flying is acceptable for both neutral and super-effective coverage. Every Pokemon has threats it has to deal with, and the common thread with most of Ghost/Flying's major paper counters is a severe weakness to burn.

I just want to point out Drifblim, which is definitely the #1 Momentum pokemon in all of UU, full stop, just showcasing how this typing can be used to serious advantage.

Fighting,

Hide

I'm going to bring up a very good option that doesn't seem as popular as I would have expected: Flying/Fighting. This typing has three big advantages:

Resistances: Flying/Fighting sport some very nice resistances, with Fighting, Grass, Dark, Bug, and the Ground immunity, and more importantly it resists or is neutral to some very important type combinations. Most valuable are the Fighting/Dark resistances, Fighting resistance/Rock neutrality, the Ground immunity/Rock neutrality, the 4x resistance to U-turn, and SR neutrality (which alongside Spikes and TS immunity greatly reduces switch-in damage). These allow you to switch in on (and far more importantly force out) many threats, including Excadrill, Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Terakion, Virizion, and Conckledurr. The problem with sub-types like Ghost or Poison is that most attacks that are resisted by these types are usually used alongside coverage attacks that will hit SE, meaning they won't actually switch out and no momentum is gained. ie Fighting/Dark/Ghost, Fighting/Rock, Ground/Rock/Ice, Grass/Ice (and normal isn't used much at all, except Rapid Spin. Unfortunately you're weak to Starmie's TB and IB, and Excadrill's Rock Slide).

Weaknesses: Ice, Electric, Flying, and Psychic are easily taken advantage of. Flying and Psychic in particular will almost never be used without STAB, and Ice and Electric are quite predictable, usually coming from pokemon like Starmie or Thundurus - not to mention that Roost can remove these weaknesses should it be selected (thought that should't be assumed!).

Coverage: Also interesting is the fantastic STAB coverage. One thing to note about the coverage is that while it has great neutral coverage it doesn't have amazing super-effective coverage (except on the Pokemon you want to force out, like Terakion, TTar, Conckledurr, etc). This means that most pokemon would take consistent damage damage from CAP 1 without being outright KOed. I think that this is valuable as it allows you to weaken switch-in's consistently while not being easily forced out by resistances. This also allows us to focus on secondary moves as a means of gaining momentum (since we presumably wouldn't be using powerful STABs like Heatran's Fire Blast).

The only (viable) pokemon that resist Flying/Fighting coverage are Zapdos and Thundurus, which makes two very predictable switch-ins to be crippled (eg if we decided to give it Thunder Wave) or met with a pokemon that could take advantage of them. Obviously this seems very limited, however, it has been firmly stated that CAP 1 will not have stellar attacking options/stats, and it almost certainly won't have offensive boosting moves. Thus, a number of pokemon with solid defences will still be able to switch in to CAP 1 effectively. Meanwhile, Flying still provides decent coverage on its own, so a mono-attacking set can still easily be run.

Fighting seems like the way to go. It packs resistances to common attack types (Bug, Fighting, Ground) while still being neutral to Rock, a common coverage type. This should allow the CAP to come in on a resisted hit and be able to take off-STAB neutral hits enough to force the switch, gaining momentum. Psychic and Electric are very predictable weaknesses, both having types that are immune to them. Also, many users of these types use them as STAB moves (Thundurus, Reuniclus), so they become vastly less powerful if an immunity removes their STABs via a switch. The Ice weakness is slightly worse, however there are few Pokemon that can hit amazingly hard with this type that are not weak to Fighting (subjective).

As mentioned, the STABs of Flying/Fighting are nearly unresisted in the metagame, and hit supereffectively on pokes seen on all types of teams such as Excadrill in Sand, Ludicolo in Rain, Venusaur in Sun, Chansey in Stall, and Ferrothorn in just about everywhere. This means the STABs will be relevant regardless of the opponent's play style, and thus meaning CAP 1 can help retake momentum regardless of match-up. The CAP as Flying/Fighting will not have to switch as often as Poison/ or Steel/Flying types, other mentioned types. Not being able to touch the opponent at all (Poison vs. Reuniclus/Steels) forces you to switch, which will lose you your momentum. In the case of Fighting/Flying, it will prove to be a more useful type combo that can switch in just as easily as Poison on what matters, and that presents predictable but powerful STABs which cannot be ignored by the opponent.

For those who are worrying about Fighting's Psychic weakness (Deck Knight):
This is actually easily exploited, which is in fact a boost to the CAP's design. In the case of Latios, almost all are Choiced, so a switch to a Dark type would be easy and would force a free switch. The common Calm Mind/Refresh Latias doesn't even use its Psychic STAB, so that's not an issue any more than it is any other poke's issue. The only Psychic poke that should threaten Fighting/Flying should be Reuniclus, because it has the freedom to switch moves or Calm Mind. This poke is supposed to be mortal, not be able to stand up against everything. Regardless, if it so happens to get it, U-Turn would help the Fighting/Flying poke out of almost any Psychic situation it finds itself in while also continuing the teams momentum.

For those who say Fighting/Flying isn't defensive enough (Chou Toshio):
Compared to Steel, the only reasonable resists Steel has against it is, in all honesty, Dragon, and maybe Psychic. The cost of this is neutrality to Fighting, which is a real bane. Skarmory is only able to stand up to Conkeldurr (if it even can) because it's defense is ridiculous and it can Whirlwind the problem away.

Steel would NOT be a useful type. This CAP cannot afford to lose its resist to Fighting, one of the top 3 attack types in the metagame unless it is heavily defensive. This limits the CAP while not adding anything super important defensively or STAB-wise. It also gains the Fire weakness, which makes it more or less useless against a Sun team, and doesn't provide a Water resist, so it isn't any better than Fighting against those teams. The Dragon resist is even mitigated by having Dragons who carry moves to hit Ferrothorn. All in all, Steel adds nothing defensively or offensively that Fighting does not.

Fighting/Flying has the Rock neutrality, the Dark resist, and potentially has an answer to Psychic types in the form of U-Turn. It's STABS provide excellent neutral coverage. What more could a poke that has to come in, force a switch, and then fulfill a task need?

Hooray Flying!

Anyways, time to give my major support to yet another type. This time, I'll be backing Fighting in the polls. Reasons why Fighting type is the best choice are as followed:

• Excellent defensive typing synergy with Flying for this concept. When you look at Flying / Fighting, you have a 4x resistance to Bug (huge), an immunity to Ground, and 2x resistances for Fighting, Dark, and Grass. All of these resistances / immunities are amazing in this metagame, covering a lot of coverage moves themselves as well as Pokemon such as Scizor, Virizion (bar HP Ice, but that holds true for any Flying weak typing), Excadrill, Conkeldurr, and a lot of other very important Pokemon.
• Neutrality to Rock. I am 100% for the idea that a 2x SR weakness is not killer. In fact, I promoted that when I supported Flying in the previous thread. However, no one can deny that taking neutral damage to SR and being immune to Spikes/TSpikes is an excellent trait for a Momentum concept. It's taking minimal damage from hazards, which forces opponents to attack this directly with strategic switching and attacks instead of relying on switching CAP1 out and causing hazards damage.
• Fighting STAB is good! We all know that Fighting STAB is good: it's a big part of the current metagame, with things like Breloom and Conkeldurr running around. However, Fighting STAB allows us to put pressure on multiple Pokemon (Tyranitar, Excadrill, Terrakion, Blissey, and even neutral hits like Skarmory) that are running rampant in this metagame too. That's part of what a momentum Pokemon should do: threaten the opposing Pokemon, causing your opponent to shift gears and react. Many argue that "Fighting = Sweeper", but actually, a good STAB like Fighting, which has access to powerful, medium, and weak moves alike, can allow us to have good offense without relying on huge stats and boosting moves.
• Fighting weakness is good! Someone mentioned earlier about Poison attracting a certain kind of Psychic Pokemon as being a benefit. I agree 100% with this sentiment: luring something like Reuniclus out makes your opponent even more predictable. The Fighting / Flying combo shares this weakness, and will draw in certain Pokemon as well (as of right now, Thundurus, Zapdos, and Reuniclus seem to be the likely candidates if it is indeed Flying / Fighting). What's better for a Momentum Pokemon than drawing out predictable things? Not much, that's for sure.

My favorite is Fighting.Firstly, there has never been a Fighting/Flying type and, unlike with types like Flying/Ground and Flying/Water, this pokemon won't have as much competition. Yes, it's been stated already, but Fighting gives Flying a crucial SR neutrality. I know that reachzero said that an SR weakness is the end of the world, but it's more than that. Many threats that this pokemon could help gain momentum from, especially Fighting and Ground types, carry a Rock-typed move as a secondary typing. Picking Fighting and Flying gives us a nice set of resistances that will give us versatility in later choices about the CAP, rather than being locked in to a particular role.

• Also, Fighting/Flying is an attacking combination largely absent from the current OU metagame. A pokemon carrying Fighting/Flying could be able to gain momentum on some walls that can't deal with this combination as well as Fighting/Rock, a more common combination. Flying actually carries excellent neutral coverage.
  I believe Flying/Fighting would give this CAP the versatility that is needed to successfully create a Momentum CAP, as we haven't completely figured out how to make a momentum pokemon; versatility is a must at this point.
  
  Edit: There's been discussion on whether a Pursuit and SR weakness together can hurt this CAP's effectiveness. There are two pokemon that I can think of right now that share those traits: Victini and Drifblim. Neither of them are particularly popular in OU.
  Also, Ghost/Flying seems a bit redundant of a typing as:
  1) Most ghosts get Levitate.
  2) The only resistance gained over pure Ghost is a Grass resistance if the ghost already has levitate.
  3) Flying adds weaknesses to Rock, Electric, and Ice
  4) Flying is not a particularly helpful dual STAB for a Ghost-type as Ghost already has excellent neutral coverage that is better paired with Steel.
  5) Ghost and Flying don't actually cancel out any of each other's weaknesses.
  
  What I'm saying is, if we wanted to make a Ghost-type, then we shouldn't have voted flying.

• this seems like the most versatile type and most widely supported. take into consideration that this will not necessarily be defensive or offensive, special or physical. (this goes for all the other types too)

Water,

Hide

Water: The Water typing trades off the Ice weakness, but increases the Electric weakness to 4x. However, it 2x resists five types - Fighting, Bug, Steel, Fire, and Water. These resistances make it an ideal teammate for Ferrothorn, since he resists both of Ferro's weaknesses, making it easy for you to force your opponent in the direction you want them to go. You're obviously not going to stay in on anything packing an Electric attack (Thundurus, Starmie, etc), and Rock attacks aren't to be trifled with either (Excadril, Landorus, etc), but this also works in your favor: much like GyaraVire of early DPP, you can fish for Thunderbolts, making your opponent extremely predictable.

Water comes to mind as well. Two large threats that come to mind are Reuniclus and Blaziken. It would be nice to mitigate these threats somewhat, though this would come at the cost of doing badly against Landorus and Excadrill. If we really wanted CAP 1 to deal with Blaziken, though, it would probably have to be heavily defensive. This combo is notable for its double Electric weakness, providing an effective "funnel" for luring enemies like Rotom-W, Jolteon and random Electric coverage attackers.

I still find Water a good alternative. Water can at least make Landorus and Excadrill wary of switching in, which ties into the "choke point" theme going around. The typing's weaknesses are also very appealing, as Electric attacks aren't all that common from Pokémon other than Rotom-W/Thundurus/Raikou (and the former two will probably counter this CAP regardless), but if there's a spike in Electric users due to CAP 1, that will play to the team's favour. Water also neutralizes the Ice weakness for better prospects against the Fighting-types mentioned earlier, though the Rock weakness still hurts here.

A somewhat less discussed type is Water.

While it loses that resistance to Grass, it's not a big deal. It still resists the second STAB of the three main Grass types (Ferrothorn, Breloom and Virizion) so if you can lure those out instead you can get an easy switch in.
Losing a weakness to Ice is very good, and with just two weaknesses, it becomes very easy to outpredict the opponent and switch in something like Excadrill or Magnezone and annihilate the attacker. It's even easier because the pokemon will lure in Electric more than Rock. First, it takes twice as much damage from an Electric typed attack, and second, either you go without STAB on your Rock attack or you risk huge damage from a Water attack. This is good because there are four abilities, one type and one item that can absorb and/or be immune to Electric attacks.
For resistances gained, Water and Fire are quite common. Specially based choiced pokemon (especially Chandelure in the Dream World tier) often carry Fire attacks, usually for nailing Steels like Ferrothorn or Scizor who would otherwise wall the pokemon's STABs and other coverage moves. Pokemon like Magnezone and Latios do this a lot. Water attacks were more common with rain teams (but you would have to be careful for Thunder), but at least Milotic now gets Dragon Tail (before you argue I'll say that I use it) and Jellicent exists.

Offensively, Water pairs very well with Flying. This is good as it can force out more pokemon, but it leaves less safe switch-ins that don't give you that free turn for momentum. Water and Flying together are only resisted by Empoleon, Lanturn and Wash Rotom, three uncommon Water typed pokemon (and also Dialga and Zekrom). Water gives access to Scald, and usually Ice moves (but all three Flying+Water resists also resist Ice).

if I missed anything feel free to complete the compilation of arguments.

 

[ungulateman]

I'm firmly behind Ghost as CAP1's secondary typing. Similar reasons to before are behind this:

- Blocking Rapid Spin is a fantastic way to control the momentum of a match. Switching in on a Spinner like Forretress, threatening with a Flying STAB and (poll-jumping! :D) burning it or their opponent's switch-in with Will-O-Wisp gains you at least a turn of momentum against their burnt switch-in and several turns of lost momentum avoided by blocking Rapid Spin.

- Fighting immunity lets you screw with powerful Pokemon like Blaziken and take back the advantage immediately. Being able to switch into Blaziken's Hi Jump Kick, causing huge self-damage, and threatening with a Flying STAB or Shadow Sneak (depending on the stats, obviously) completely shuts down your opponent's offensive momentum.

Other types that would be interesting are Water and Poison. The former would need to avoid becoming a Gyarados or Mantine substitute, however, and the latter is sounding like an improved Crobat (who is already a great momentum Pokemon).

 

[Attract]

RE: Attract's post

The thing is, CAP 1 is already "mortal" almost no matter what now due to the Flying typing. Thundurus can at least revenge switch, and Zapdos will probably wall it as well. Even assuming that losing to Reuniclus is fine (which I don't think is the case), there are several other Psychic-types who have shown themselves to be very dangerous with both offensive and support moves (Deoxys-S, Mew, etc.). Even defensive Psychics like Slowbro could potentially beat Flying/Fighting CAP 1 at its own game, forcing it to use its Flying STAB and switching in a bulky Steel(/Psychic or Flying perhaps). I'm not saying that Fighting is a bad choice because of this, but we really need to stop downplaying the power of Psychic-types in this metagame.

You say, "This CAP cannot afford to lose its resist to Fighting." But can it afford to lose to a Fighting-type's coverage moves? Most Fighting-type moves are STAB. Switching into these Fighting-types is going to be shaky no matter which typing we choose, and Steel at least acknowledges the Ice-type weakness.

You also talk about sun. What is Flying/Fighting doing to sun that Flying/Steel isn't? Flying hits every "sun abuser" at least neutrally, anyway, and Flying/Fighting probably won't like boosted Fire moves. Besides, I thought you said that CAP 1 was supposed to be "mortal".

Yes, as a reaction to Steel/Flying I mentioned that the CAP should retain its Fighting type resist. Nothing about Steel would make switching into a STAB'd Fighting attack any easier, and you help me inculcate the point here by saying a resist isn't even enough to guarantee survival. Addionally, the Fighting type resists Rock, the most common Fighting/Ground coverage move, and that's what is most important. It is better to force the opponent to rely on a weaker coverage move than to allow it to hit neutrally with it's stab, which usually does more damage anyway. A Choiced pokemon would prefer its STAB Fighting attack to be switched into by a Steel/Flying than Fighting/Flying, not that switching into that would even be wise.

and Flying/Fighting probably won't like boosted Fire moves.

Flying/Fighting does not get hit supereffectively by Fire, whose attacks become monstrous in their weather. Why would a Fighting/Flying poke hate boosted Fire moves any more than Steel, or Ghost? No poke should like boosted Fire moves unless they resist it, I must be missing your point here...

Yes, Psychic's have potential in this metagame, but they are slightly easier to switch into. Spiritomb has an amazing typing that completely shuts down Reuniclus, Mamoswine's STABs are one of the best in the game (a little worse now due to Balloon), but are they destroying the metagame? No. Yes, this CAP should be mortal and would be mortal as Fighting/Flying. Typing says a lot about what a poke can do well, but it doesn't make it broken by itself. I agree that its potential is frightening.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I have to go with Dark. I know it retains the Stealth Rock weakness, but look. We can still smack Fighting opponents with Flying attacks and now we have a way to deal with the buffed up Psychics. Reuniclus cannot hope to defeat this pokemon now because it fears Dark STAB, and still is not weak to Fighting.

Ghost is also acceptable, as it can super effectively hit Psychics and gets two more immunities to play with.

 

[ryik7]

what I see most in PO:

conkeldurr
serperior/jalorda
Breloom
SB blaziken
reinacus (to an extent)
espeon (to an extent)
chandera (to an extent)
scizor (for some reason, not as much people use him as before)ninetails/politoed/tyranitar/abomasnow (politoed kinda dissapeared now that swift swin is gone) in order of common-ness:
t-tar
ninetails
abomasnow
politoed

seen less:

politoed (he really dropped like a rock)
nattorei
ononkusu (big fanged dragon)
abomasnow (he never really caught on)
forretress (everyone always uses him)
dragonite
ulgamoth (volcarona?)
Jirachi

kinda hard to counter them all with one type... I suppose I'm voting for psychic, That gives a x4 resistance to fighting, it brings bug to only neutral, (scizor isn't that bad with only neutral STAB) I'm kinda guessing this poke will have U-turn, or at least access to bug attacks of some sort ie. signal beam u turn x scizzor, so the only major threats of t-tar and chandera can be hit and switched out to another poke that can take the dark/ghost attack (normal/dark/fighting types like tyranitar or whatever else like blissey, who can take the special attacks thrown at it, and the abundant fighting types come to mind)

PS. I know its not a bold vote or anything, it's just that in that mass of words, you can't see the actual typing for someone skimming this,

OF COURSE THOUGH, we arent trying to get type coverage, we are trying to get typing that we can manipulate, and by that we are meaning switch ins I guess, so we have to give it many weaknesses and many resistances to it. In that case, ghosties are nice, they can force away fighters, if not anything else, and as it is, serperior/jalorda and breloom have trouble dealing with flying alone. That, and it can do the same as psychic with t-tar and chandera.

 

[Tortferngatr]

ryik7: ...You appear to be playing Dream World, as almost nobody in their right mind uses Serperior without its unreleased Contrary ability. You also seem to have a low ranking, as Haxorus/Ononokus is this Gen's equivalent to Gen IV Electivire-powerful and hard for less experienced players to stop, but easy for more experienced players to beat. (besides Garchomp outclasses it.) Finally, psychic only offers a Psychic resist over Ghost, which offers Fighting and normal immunity, along with a 4x bug resist. Additionally, Ghost hits the Chandelure you fear super-effectively, something that Bug-typed moves cannot do (Ghost resists bug.)

 

[xlxlxlxl]

I think that Fighting would be an excellent secondary typing because it would give CAP 1 SR neutrality and a solid stab combination. Fighting will also allow CAP 1 to keep its valuable resistance to fighting, allowing it to severely threaten Roobushin (IDK the English names sorry) with its other stab. Other types like ghost and psychic would give CAP 1 a pursuit weakness, making it an easy revenge kill for Tyranitar or Scizor: even if CAP 1 learns U-Turn! Resisting Pursuit, U-turn, and fighting moves is a great reason to choose fighting over the other types mentioned.

I apologize if I'm jumping the gun by talking about its movepool and abilities, but U-Turn (many flying types get it) and stab Mach Punch with likely access to bulk up would be very useful for obtaining and keeping offensive momentum. Regeneration or Magic Guard could help it stay alive longer, as CAP 1 will likely be switching often.

 

[Chameleon]

I'm going to throw my support behind Fighting. Why? It lets us gain momentum against certain omnipresent Pokemon very reliably, but still leaves us with counters (Electrics, Psychics, and Flyers can still threaten us).

1. Fighting allows us to come in on Conkledurr, Virizion, Breloom, and other Fighting-types lacking Ice moves without much risk

Fighting-types have recieved a surge in popularity this gen, especially through Conkledurr. In addition, fighting types are the most popular check to common threats such as Tyranitar and especially Doryuuzu, either through priority or resistances (Virizion for the latter). Note that all of the 'Mons listed above are also threatening set-up sweepers.

These Pokemon are likely to always be around for our CAP to come in on and abuse its resistances. If we do not resist Fighting and Dark (or even Grass), many of these threats can defeat us with the appropriate coverage move; Fighting as a secondary typing gives us these resistances and, as an added bonus, an SR neutrality.

2. Still solid resistances to Grass and Bug, plus additional Dark resist

Fighting preserves these resistances. We will not be helpless even if there are too few Fighting types around. (Note: I am not trying to forcefully centralize this Pokemon around Fighting types, I just see an opportunity) We resist U-turn, resist T-tar's more accurate STAB (and EQ and Superpower)

3. Good Stabs

Good Stabs do not allow us to sweep, for that is just as much a function of movepool and stats. They, at the very least, allow us to have attacks that prevent us from being set-up bait without having to leave our STAB sphere.

 

[Paradox]

Here are some of my misgivings over Ghost typing. This is directed towards all support of Ghost, but I'm going to focus on Deck's post as it is the only one that really said much:

First of all, I think that this:

Has vulnerability most often to only one coverage attack on a given opponent.

Is a pretty irrelevant point. All that is needed is one coverage attack, and it just so happens that for Flying/Ghost most of those coverage attacks hit for SE damage as opposed to resisted or neutral. Unless of course Disable is assumed, but that's a very large assumption, not only because movepool is pretty far away, but because of the Speed / or Ability (Prankster) required to make it work. Roost I guess is also a viable way to at least deal with a few weaknesses (most significantly Rock), but again, that would require an obscene speed (Since the Rock/Fighting or Ground users are extremely fast and often utilized +2 boosting abilities or moves) or ability (Prankster again). I am of course focusing on these Ground and Fighting mons they were the reason Flying was selected and are the pokemon Deck alluded to in his post. To deal with these threats, Will-o-Wisp is almost required (and Deck himself has been talking a lot about burn), and in order to burn any of the extremely fast Rock Polishers or Sand Rush pokemon that are being focused on Prankster is a necessity.

That pretty much means that we would have to focus the rest of this CAP around dealing with Rock attacks, which I find extremely limiting. What if Intimidate provides better momentum, but can't be used due to Rock weakness? etc. I also have a problem with the ability Prankster itself (not polljumping, but its pretty heavily hinted at in Deck's post / necessary for the typing... so he started it!). Prankster is a very, very powerful ability. Thus far, Prankster has only been seen on pokemon with terrible offences (Whimsicott, DW Sableye) or minimal non-attacking options / low defences (Thundurus and Tornadus). On the suggested Pokemon that will at least solid defence and offence, and doubtlessly good supporting options Prankster would be extremely good, IMO to the point were it could almost become "Prankster-abuse Mon" instead of focusing on momentum. This would especially occur if it got moves like Will-o-Wisp, which would make it an amazing burn spreader and Physical-mon crippler for as long as WoW doesn't miss. Please don't underestimate the power of Priority non-attacking moves.

Hits the vast majority of Steel-types for Neutral damage.

This is true, though a bit exaggerated. Don't forget Skarmory, Excadrill, Heatran, Magnezone, or Tyranitar, who while not a Steel is one of the most common pokemon in 5th Gen and hits Ghost/Flying for SE with both STABs. And even HP Fighting isn't going to do much to the Specially Defensive TTars that are rampant nowadays. (Not to mention stuff like Fighting/Flying and Flying/Water have better coverage anyways).

Threatening Reuniclus is a good point, as it's one of the most threatening Pokemon this generation and I'm not a big fan of Flying/Fighting offering it switch-in opportunities (though there are of course ways to deal with that). However, I'm sure TR Reuniclus would still deal a lot of damage with Shadow Ball, especially after SR damage.

Anyways, Deck concluded by stating that Ghost/Flying opens up a lot of stat and ability options. However, I think that due to the numerous flaws of this typing options for stats and abilities are severely limited. It said in the post that "there are multiple ways to deal with a quick Rock Slide using a combination of Stats and Ability". Really, the only way is a Prankster Roost or WoW, or I guess maybe Intimidate or Filter and huge defensive bulk, but I think anyone can see how that would be more of a wall than the momentum mon we've been aiming for up to now. (Not to mention that Deck's arguments on IRC for Ghost have been almost entirely based around Prankster). I think that this very limiting typing is not in the interest of our first CAP project in the 5th generation.

tl;dr: Ghost/Flying has severe flaws that can be dealt with, but would severely limit our options in doing so.
Feel free to rebut/prove me wrong. I think Ghost/Flying is interesting should these problems be solved!