CAP 10 CAP 10 - Concept Assessment

[beej]

Now that we’ve selected our concept, it’s time to discuss what direction we’ll take with it. Again, our concept is:

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Utility Counter is a potentially metagame-shifting concept in that it will be creating a new niche, something that can be customized to address any threat that you choose. However, even with such specification, there is a lot of room for diversity. In addition to the obvious questions (how we’re going to allow our Pokemon to do its job with certain mechanics), there are some key bullet points that I want you to discuss in particular:

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?
  
• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?
• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?
• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

You are also expected to follow these rules:

• No bashing. Don’t be a jerk. This is a civil discussion, and while debate is obviously going to occur, don’t resort to flaming or passive-aggressive remarks.

• No poll jumping. This basically means that your posts shouldn’t be outright proposing that CAP10 should definitely hav e any particular traits. Nothing like “CAP10 should get ability x, along with typing y and z Speed" is allowed. It’s acceptable to suggest abilities and types and whatnot, but you shouldn’t be coming up with an entire Pokemon with your posts. Basically, use your judgement.

• Don't be afraid to ask questions. This concept provides us with a lot of leeway to be creative, and as such, it can be pretty confusing. We’re basically trying to get on the same page with this thread, so if you are having trouble understanding something, I encourage you to ask about it here.

This thread will probably be closed sometime tomorrow.

 

[zarator]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

This may get somehow tricky when you talk about versatile powerhouses like Tyranitar, or Salamence. But, at its basis, the way I look at reach's concept, CAP10 should let me fix any kind of specific threat with a high degree of reliability. For example, while asking CAP10 to cover every variation of Tyranitar may probably be overkill (and nigh impossible to be honest), if I have a specific weakness to Dragon Dance Tyranitar, I should be able to tailor CAP10 in order to stop that particular Tyranitar's set cold. It may still fall to Tyraniboah, but at least you get the chance to cover whatever you desire. One of the most awful things about some Pokémon is that, even if you prepare carefully for him, you still need prediction, luck, or both to beat him. CAP10 should fix this, hopefully.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

There is no definite answer to this. Some Pokémon (especially if fast and frail) are better handled by a tanking build. Sturdy ones, on the contrary, may require a different approach ("annoying" moves like Encore and Taunt, or a strong, supereffective hit, or the right resistance). In other words, the way this Pokémon should address threats depends on the kind of threats he wants to deal with.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

I think the best (and probably most obvious) answer is balanced. CAP10 will need some bulkiness to check the major threats, even if he can boast a resistance. However, without some power behind his moves, he will fail to check threats effectively, and may even become setup fodder.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?

Well, this question is difficult to answer in theory, but it is probable that, if CAP10 is tailored to check Gyarados effectively, it will fare well against Feraligatr and Kingdra too. If CAP10 is equipped for Salamence, Dragonite will also be checkable, and so on. The point is: it is not important how many threats CAP10 can cover at once, but rather how well CAP10 can cover specific threats. I'd prefer CAP10 to be able to fully counter any singular threat in OU than a "general purpose counter" which turns out to be an iffy check against everything.

I have been pretty concise, I'll admit it. If necessary, I'll expand on these points. I just wanted to throw the proverbial 2 cents.

 

[Brambane]

For CAP10, I think a good path to take would be something like an "OU Mewtwo".


To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

I think it should be able to stop not every set Pokemon can run, like all of Celebi's and Tyranitar's, but should be able to stop a certain set, like Zarator said. It can stop Tinkerbell and TyraniBoah, but it might have troubles against SD Celebi, etc etc.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

Here is where the "OU Mewtwo" comes in. Mewtwo can be played both offensivly, supporting amazing coverage and good offensive stats, or defensivly, with a good defensive movepool, Screens and okay defensive stats. I think that if is downplayed to "not be broken" in the OU metagame, it would be a great addition to the OU metagame. The nice thing about Mewtwo in Ubers is it can fit in a large vareity of teams and CAN be tailored to certain threats (i.e. If you are weak to Forretress, you can run Taunt and Flamethrower). A Utility Counter, in my opinion, should be able to fit on almost every kind of team and handle the main threat to that kind of team.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

Being able to take hits well (maybe with the assitance of Screens or a move like cosmic Power), while still being able to inflict decent damage. This will allows Utility Counter to fit on Offensive, Stall, bulky Offense, and other teams and counter the threat to that team either offensivly (keeping momentum going) or defensivly.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?

Pretty much what Zarator said. If it can handle DD Mence, it should be able to handle DD Nite too. CAP10 should be able to cover, in a sense, specific sterotypes (i.e. DD Dragon/Flying-types and Specially Defensive Normal-types) of Pokemon.

and there's my two-cents

 

[Aura Guardian]

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?
  
• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?
• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?
• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

I would suggest that the CAP be like Porygon2. It works very well against most sets of what it counters, possibly by using an ability. However, it is an easy target vs some others that it does not counter while being able to hold it's own against a portion of the metagame. The CAP would have to be slightly powered up and would have to bbe modified quite a bit to counter half the metagame, but only a few at a time. However, echoing Porygon2 seems like the most promising Utility Counter to me.

 

[Zystral]

I think for the sake of clarity and to prevent slightly mindless posts, the term 'counter' will have to be easily defined from the get-go.
A Counter is something that can easily switch into any move the opposing threat may bring and then retaliate by forcing it out or attacking it back for notable damage.

Obviously, its stats will be heavily biased to defence, otherwise it won't be switching into too much too often; defeating the point of a perfect counter. However, equally high offensive prowess isn't necessary; you don't have to kill your designated threat, only cripple it enough so that something else can.

If we make it so that CAP 10 can effectively wall and shut down anything possible using any combination of required moves, I have a fear it'll become overpowered.
I have nothing wrong with making it very bulky, giving it an amazing movepool, etc. but the limit should be drawn as to HOW it deals with the threat; OHKOing them back would be too much.

In regards to what happens if you've prepared for something that isn't there; If we don't want it to be a total dead weight, we assume that it is able to work efficiently no matter what it is doing. So by that logic, we have an already versatile, highly efficient Pokémon that can also double up to be customized and stop anything, while still being efficient no matter what. Not only does that seem unrealistic, if achievable at all, it'll be more or less broken, as the typing and movepool would have to accomodate both good battle prowess AND good countering potential.

I think that for such a vague, yet rewarding tactic, the idea that if the opponent isn't carrying what you are trying to counter should be punished with a wasted moveslot. However, if they are carrying what fits your hole, then Utility Counter should be able to completely annihlate it. My only fear is that then, it would revolve around countering only top threats and as such, lose novelty.

Not arguing against the concept, but that's my idea of what problems it will have and how it might work so far.

 

[Raikaria]

Might I just say, that this concept may be difficult to implement, as the defiinition of Counter, and the fact that CAP 10 *should* be capable of countering a large number of pokemon, while remaining OU, and not Uber, will be difficult. However, I am not saying it's impossible.

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? The concept states clearly, 'Counter'. This means that the threats that CAP 10 adresses will have to be strongly adressed, either forced out, or dealt with, or crippled.
  
• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?
  I see no other route than a slight defensive bias with CAP 10. If CAP 10 has paper defenses, it'll not be a counter, as it can't switch in. However, if we try and make it something like Shuckle, it also won't threaten anything. In addittion, we could say that physical attackers like Tyranitar, are 'countered' by being crippled. So, moves such as Will-O-Wisp and Thunder Wave would be useful.
  
• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Certainly a bias to defense, probobly physical. Many top threats in OU are physical, so, a high physical defence would be required to be able to switch in. At least one attacking stat, probobly both, would also need to be adequate.
  
• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? When not dealing with that it's designed to counter, like the concept states, it should be dead weight, or at least a whole lot more useless.

 

[zarator]

If we make it so that CAP 10 can effectively wall and shut down anything possible using any combination of required moves, I have a fear it'll become overpowered.
I have nothing wrong with making it very bulky, giving it an amazing movepool, etc. but the limit should be drawn as to HOW it deals with the threat; OHKOing them back would be too much.

Why?

Unless CAP10 is able to counter and OHKO back a large portion of the metagame with one, single set, I don't see where is the problem. Just think of it. What is the difference between choosing a "Scizor-killer" CAP10 over a "Infernape-killer" CAP10, and choosing a Zapdos over a Latias? Ok, that makes CAP10 extremely versatile, but unless it is able to pose some kind of serious threat (like a powerful assault with something like STAB Draco Meteor or a Swords Dance setup), it is hard to deem it broken. just look at Zapdos. It can be either physically or specially defensive, but that adds very little to his power once it enters the battlefield. If you send it against Lucario rather than Heatran (especially if Zapdos takes damage on the switch), it will be apparent which variant it is.

My argument may not be conclusive, but if you are not convinced by me, I'd like you to at least explain yourself. Why being able to counter AND OHKO any given OU threat (of course, given the right spread and moveset, it should not be able to destroy all OU threats with a single set) should lead to CAP10 being broken?

 

[Zystral]

My argument may not be conclusive, but if you are not convinced by me, I'd like you to at least explain yourself. Why being able to counter AND OHKO any given OU threat (of course, given the right spread and moveset, it should not be able to destroy all OU threats with a single set) should lead to CAP10 being broken?

As I had mentioned to be versatile enough and have the capacity to counter 'virtually anything', CAP 10 would require very good defensive stats and typing to survive some of the powerful hits flying around the metagame today.

And on top of that, you want to give it good moves, stats and typing (which may or may not contradict with the defensive typing required) so that it can kill those threats too? Seems a bit much to me. We'd be looking at Celebi/Jirachi like stats, except possibly with more bulk, and a much more versatile movepool and a good typing to perhaps give STAB on the moves needed to kill the threats while still resisting said threat.
If I take an example of Salamence; He normally packs: Fire / EQ / Dragon in terms of offense. He is weak to Ice and Dragon.
I can't think of a good typing that isn't weak to at least one of those moves and can still hit Mence with SE STAB. Okay, so the SE STAB might not be necessary, but regardless, the fact that Countering and OHKOing the threat involves high stats on both sides of the offensive/defensive spectrum. Perhaps high to the point of broken.

 

[Zach]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

Reachzero's concept indicates that CAP10 should be a highly versatile pokemon, defensively speaking; it can check many threats, depending on how you EV it, its moveset, etc. Reach's concept seems to me to be borne from frustration of team building, when you have 5 pokemon and you realize that you are horribly weak to Salamence or Gengar or whatever, but that there is no pokemon that fits synergistically with the rest of the team; CAP10 is the pokemon that you are going to want to plug that hole with. Reachzero himself said on IRC (iirc) that he envisions CAP 10 as a pokemon that you will be putting on your team last to patch up a certain weakness or gap. His concept also directly says that CAP 10 should be able to deal with "Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar...". Long story short, when I have 5 pokemon and I realize that I am horribly weak to Pokemon X, Y, or Z, I want to put CAP 10 on my team, customize it to handle Pokemon X, Y, or Z, and not worry about a thing.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

To me it seems that handling a wide variety of pokemon offensively requires high speed and brutal attacking stats, and while that is all well and good, not all pokemon can be handled that way; Dragon Dancers that outrun you at +1, Pokemon with Swords Dance and Extremespeed, and Pokemon that can simply OHKO you as you switch in. Even if we are talking about a Choice Scarfer to outrun the Dragon Dancer with a typing to resist Extremespeed, relying on Choice Scarf to check a threat makes that pokemon much more of a liability than I want a reliable check to be. CAP 10 needs to be defensive first, as that maximizes the number of threats it can check, and offensive as an afterthought.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

CAP 10 will need to be more than sufficiently defensive; we are looking to this Pokemon to take everything from a given pokemon, and that includes the scariest things such as Specs Heatran Flash Fire Overheat. However, certain pokemon, such as Tyranitar and Metagross, require a decent amount of offensive presence to defeat, due to their sheer bulkiness.

Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

Well for reasons stated in the previous two questions I think that CAP 10 should be a primarily defensive pokemon but with a decent amount of offensive presence.
____

as a side note, I think the ability Multitype may be one of the best ways of going about doing this. having a set typing almost certainly leaves you weak to something; even if CAP 10 is a Ghost/Steel type, probably the best combination defensively speaking, it isn't a Heatran check no matter how you customize it

 

[reachzero]

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

I agree with ZystraL that having a good working definition of "counter" is pretty important here. I view a "hard counter" as a Pokemon that can always switch in more or less regardless of the moves a Pokemon is using, barring something extremly unusual or exotic. A good example would be that Heatran hard counters Weezing; short of running Hidden Power Ground, there is almost nothing Weezing can do to stop Heatran from switching in and destroying it. A "soft counter" is a Pokemon that can handle most common things a Pokemon does, though that Pokemon can beat the counter with a viable, specialized set of some kind. For instance, Swampert soft counters Jirachi in that it can switch in very safely on the majority of physical sets and even somewhat safely on the Calm Mind sets; however, if Jirachi really wants to beat Swampert, it can choose to do so by using Grass Knot, though it loses some coverage elsewhere. A "check" is a Pokemon that for some reason has difficulty switching in safely without prediction, but can destroy or force out a Pokemon once it actually gets in. For instance, Latias can't swich Gyarados with impunity, since if Gyarados Dragon Dances on the switch, Latias will die to a +1 Bounce or Ice Fang. However, if it switches into Waterfall, it is will be able to force Gyarados out with the threat of Thunderbolt or Draco Meteor.
For the purpose of this CAP, I would suggest that we look to build a Pokemon that is versatile enough to soft counter as many threats as possible. A very versatile offensive threat like Infernape or Tyranitar would be next to impossible to hard counter even if a CAP were custom built to do so. I feel that soft countering is enough; CAP 10 should be able to force out the Pokemon it is customized to beat the great majority of the time, with the exception being when the Pokemon it is meant to counter is running a set meant to beat its counters (i.e. Tyranitar using Ice Beam to kill bulky Grounds, etc.).

• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

  
  

I feel that the Pokemon should have "enough" offense to be able to actually kill the Pokemon it is countering rather than just walling it (which would allow it to come back in later). However, I believe it is essential that CAP 10 not become an offensive force in its own right. It's offensive ability should be "adequate" but not "menacing". If CAP10 is a major offensive threat, people will customize it to be the greatest offensive force possible, which of course will negate the whole point of the concept.

• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

I doubt it's terribly important which direction this Pokemon goes in, though I believe a slightly defensive build is probably better in terms of allowing this Pokemon to take the high-powered hits it is likely to be switching into. However, this Pokemon will need a certain amount of offense for it to be able to counter certain resilient OU Pokemon; it's very difficult to outlast Breloom or Celebi without a reasonable amount of offense, even if you have the right typing to do so. I should note that because this Pokemon will practically be seeking either to cover the physical or special side but not both, high Defense and Special Defense stats are more important for this concept than a high HP stat.

• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

Assuming that CAP10 does not receive very low base stats (<500 or so), there is no reason to believe that every version that is run should not be useful in some way outside of the Pokemon that it was specifically asked to counter. A physically bulky spread is still physically bulky, even if it is geared specifically toward beating Gyarados and is less than ideal for trying to take on Lucario. Of course, every Pokemon will occasionally find itself as dead weight in a specific team matchup; a great many Pokemon that are useful against offense, such as Swampert or Vaporeon, are nearly useless against stall, for instance.
Zarator summarized my opinion of Utility Counter pretty well; by adapting to beat one kind of Pokemon (Specially based Latias or Salamence spamming Draco Meteor) it naturally opens itself up to another kind (Rhyperior or Mamoswine spamming Earthquake).

 

[Erazor]

• To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?
  
• Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?
• What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?
• Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?

First, we have to keep in mind that no one pokemon can effectively counter every single threat. So in response to the first question, I'd say that CAP10 should be able to switch in on most of the threat's attacks and do enough to it to cripple it. You don't need to worry about that Scizor once it's burnt. Of course, being able to KO is nice (such as Ice Beam against Salamence, hypothetically), but isn't necessary.

As for the stats - first of all, we'd need a pretty high BST. It would preferably have good defensive stats on both sides - it needs to be able to switch in on a variety of attacks - as well as one competent attacking stat, to threaten. It also needs a huge movepool, since there are so many threats, and this CAP is potentially countering most of them. It should ideally be greater than 100 base speed - since there are so many threats in that base 100 group - but if we have to ensure that this doesn't become "BrokenCAP" then we're going to have to limit a couple of stats.

It stands to reason that CAP 10 should work equally well against different but similar pokemon(like Dragonite and Salamence). CAP 10 should not be absolute dead weight against a team that does not have the mon he's supposed to counter, but it's unlikely that he would be able to perform well. Maybe in a support role.
Still, there has to be a trade-off for being able to check anything you want - you're not going to be able to perform well outside your "realm".

My 2 cents.

 

[Son_of_Shadoo]

With such an emphasis on countering, CAP10 will need to be able to switch in with impunity. Entry hazards, therefore, will probably play a large role in its creation. Cresselia, I suppose, might be a good place to start looking for ideas, with her massive defences, and immunity to 2/3 of the entry hazards (except under Gravity), and being neutral to SR. Just a thought.

 

[ATray]

as a side note, I think the ability Multitype may be one of the best ways of going about doing this. having a set typing almost certainly leaves you weak to something; even if CAP 10 is a Ghost/Steel type, probably the best combination defensively speaking, it isn't a Heatran check no matter how you customize it

I have to say I disagree, since resisting dragon may be a big part of countering threats such as Salamence and Flygon, yet steel would grant fire and ground weaknesses. Unless the pokemon had ridiculous defensive stats to make up for this, (and, considering the movepool it will probably need, it could end up borderline uber, with amazing coverage as a wall rather than specific to any one threat) multitype isn't going to work. Perhaps an ability that grants an immunity or resistance to a type depending on the held plate?

 

[Zystral]

I have to say I disagree, since resisting dragon may be a big part of countering threats such as Salamence and Flygon, yet steel would grant fire and ground weaknesses. Unless the pokemon had ridiculous defensive stats to make up for this, (and, considering the movepool it will probably need, it could end up borderline uber, with amazing coverage as a wall rather than specific to any one threat) multitype isn't going to work. Perhaps an ability that grants an immunity or resistance to a type depending on the held plate?

This was discussed over IRC: with the right stat spread a bulk, Mono-Steel CAP10 would be able to survive Mence +1 EQ or Fire Blast.
Now would you really rather be weak to two weaker attacks that are SE or would you rather be neutral to its boosted main STAB attack?

 

[Sushidog]

I need to ask; can we create a new ability for whatever CAP? It's slipped my mind. |:

as a side note, I think the ability Multitype may be one of the best ways of going about doing this. having a set typing almost certainly leaves you weak to something; even if CAP 10 is a Ghost/Steel type, probably the best combination defensively speaking, it isn't a Heatran check no matter how you customize it

I actually agree with the idea of multitype. I classify this CAP as something like putty; it can be moulded to fit its role. Being able to change type depending on whatever it's supposed to be countering is a basic and good idea.
I would suggest Conversion 2 but there's obviously a reason as to why it's not used. God damn it Nintendo why couldn't Conversion 2 be an ability.

Leaving stats up to the "experts", I'm pretty crap at them.

 

[Paras Hilton]

Hey, how about Color Change as an ability. I understand how overpowered it is, since its relegated Kecleon to Ubers an' all. Thats where Kecleon is, right? I mean he's not in OU, so..

Naw, but seriously, if you're going to give it Multitype, you could consider not having the sprite change colour to indicate its type. SURPRISE TYPE POKEMON! EVERYDAY'S A NEW ADVENTURE WITH SURPRISE MON! It would bypass the whole "having to use steel since thats the only way you'll resist dragon" jazz, since it'll probably be expected to be a steel type in most cases, and you can just play off that.

 

[v]

The moment I saw this concept, I envisioned a Pokemon not unlike Deoxys-S. Prior to the advent of th DSDS set, Deoxys-S was considered perfectly manageable and was primarily used as a revenge-killer and check against speed-boosting Pokemon. I'm not suggesting something quite as extreme as Deoxys-S, but I believe a Pokemon with reasonably balanced defenses and offenses with monstrous speed and an enormous movepool would be able to fulfil the concept best. Perhaps more focus on defenses in addition to speed would yield a Pokemon more focused on outright countering than revenge-killing.

Of course, while I believe typologically and statistically the Pokemon should be more defensive with a lot of speed, the movepool should be markedly offensive. I don't want this Pokemon to go from "versatile counter" to "fast pokemon with encore and sr." If it received the elemental beams, a strong fighting move, earthquake and move to hit ghosts, I think that it would have a sufficiently large movepool to be able to counter and check quite a few threats at once -- but not all of them.

 

[Sushidog]

Hey, how about Color Change as an ability. I understand how overpowered it is, since its relegated Kecleon to Ubers an' all. Thats where Kecleon is, right? I mean he's not in OU, so..

......I thought Kecleon was in UU/NU due to lack of decent stats and being too underpowered to make any use of that ability. Hey, I guess I haven't checked the roster in a while, I might go look again.
I was under the impression it was a risky ability to run, noting the general change and removal of STAB. However, this CAP could be moulded to make good use of it. Who knows. I'm not 100% sure.

 

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

One option would be to have two very different abilities that allow it to shift roles. For example, it could have Solid Rock and Huge Power (or a Special version thereof). With a versatile defensive typing lacking any 4x weaknesses, such as Dragon/Steel or Grass/Water, Solid Rock could make it a tanking powerhouse even with middling defensive stats. This would be balanced by less-than-stellar offensive stats, which the other ability could boost up to counter things that require more of a punch.

 

[viol and bass]

Nice idea, Dragon steel would resist all but Dragon and Ice wich it takes netrual. Steel Water would also resist all but Fire and Grass wich is also netrual. Steel Flying would resist all but Ice water. Steel Ground all but Ice Grass. And just steel would resist all but Water and Electric

I'm a bit confused about this. What about fire, ground, and fighting for dragon/steel? Ground, fighting, electric for steel/water? Etc.

 

[tangramman]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats?

CAP10 should be able to hard counter any threat that my team happens to be weak to, but only limited to a single set that creates a specific niche. If my team happens to crumble due to a SD Infernape set, than CAP10 should stop it without fail. By countering SD Infernape, CAP10 should also be able to counter other similar threats, like SD Weavile or SD Breloom. In countering these threats, however, CAP10 will be unable to counter threats which attempt to dismantle my team through other methods; SubCharge Rotom-A or CM Suicune for example. CAP10 can also be made to counter defensive, stalling-type Pokemon, like Blissey or Rotom-A; CAP10 doesn't necessarily have to counter only offensive threats. A Blissey or Rotom-A with the right moveset could very well spell the end for many teams.

One has to keep in mind that CAP10 will only counter certain specific Pokemon, not those other supporting Pokemon or Pokemon of an entirely different nature. I question whether we can distinguish the strategies of one threat from another, without encompassing a significantly large amount of threats, thereby making CAP10 not a band-aid solution, but a global threat checker.

A digression and possible poll jumping

CM Suicune almost always has a teammate with the ability to use Toxic Spikes and the ability to keep those hazards on the field, while SD Infernape must make sure that bulky Waters and Dragons are kept down through, in most situations, brute force (Specs/Band users, Scarf Revengers, etc) in order to retain momentum and make sure the opponent's strategy cannot be executed. CAP10 will ensure that CM Suicune itself fails to sweep, but not it's teammates, which is what I find daunting; if CM Suicune's teammates are slowly whittling away your team, even if CAP10 comes in to stop CM Suicune cold, is the opponent's strategy of weakening your team not successful? With CAP10, do we tailor it to stop strategies or Pokemon itself? And if the only the latter, then it seems we are dooming CAP10 to being simply another Pokemon that the opponent needs to find crush before accomplishing their strategy; simple fodder until the opponent can break through.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively?

It should definitely be a balance: adequate defense to survive an encounter with those it was not meant to counter, but with enough power to combat against enemies who serve a similar purpose as those CAP10 was meant to counter.

Cresselia is good example of the former concern; while Cresselia is undeniably an immensely bulky Pokemon, due to the astoundingly powerful threats of the current metagame and a case of bad typing, Cresselia cannot withstand the power of many Pokemon, either becoming set-up fodder, or a chance for the enemy to simply wipe her out through a powerful Pursuit/Crunch/U-turn/etc. Bronzong is a good example of the latter concern; Zong is a fantastic utility for whatever purpose it needs doing, from Dual Screening or setting up Trick Room, but not all that great at countering specific Pokemon (and if Zong is used to counter certain threats, there is almost always a better option for your team). The sheer strength and movepools of many Pokemon, combined with Zong's pitiful offensive options, relegate Zong to a role of ushering in your teammates for their purpose, not allowing Bronzong to do what his stats would tell you: be a decent wall.

What I'm getting at is CAP10 must be able dish out damage while taking it, and not falter in either department. A balance of offense and defense, like an overall better Porygon2.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat?

High bulk with decent offense capabilities; like I mentioned earlier, a better Porygon2, although, clearly, that would make CAP10 seem contrived and essentially a lazily created uni-tasker. Speed would likely be of little concern, perhaps reaching around or below the Base 80 mark. Typing would be a larger issue to be tackled, as certain typing would leave CAP10 vulnerable to certain threats regardless of it's specific traits. Multitype would alleviate this, but I'm not sure how we would implement it, considering that CAP10 would have to sacrifice Leftovers or another such helpful item to actually activate it's ability, but that can be discussed later.

CAP10 must be a balance of offense and defense in order to have a chance of doing it's job.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter?

As much as I dislike what I'm about to propose, it seems necessary. Many Pokemon have 4MSS, especially Vaporeon and Celebi for example, whose specific, useful movepools allow them to counter many threats, while being quite open to others. With Vap having Surf / Wish / Protect, the decision comes down to 'countering' Gyarados or Salamence. Give Celebi Grass Knot / Leech Seed / Recover, and now you must decide in gaining coverage to hit Heatran or Scizor.

What I suggest is that we give CAP10 an absolutely ludicrous movepool, consisting mainly of supportive and weak offensive options, and the mechanics inherent in the game will decide how far CAP10 can go in countering Pokemon.

This seems like the best and simplest solution that seems to work for quite a few Pokemon as it is now. Forretress can explode, kill fast opponents or combat Ghosts, but not all 3; Machamp can either destroy Flyers or destroy Ghosts and Psychics, but not both while still retaining the ability to Rest Talk.

If my comments are debatable or out of place, by all means, present better solutions or question my own.

 

[P_K]

Well, as for typing is considered, It'd make sense to simply be a Normal type in my eyes, only weak to 2 three types and only threatened by one type. If not, then perhaps dark/ghost? Although, that may be too powerful in an OU Pokemon...

As for customizing it to counter one specific Pokemon, how'zabout giving it alternate formes(I'm not just saying that so my rejected CAP10 concept can be used- that's just a fortunate by-product :P) in order to both increase and ease the methods of customization?

As for it becoming dead weight... that's a hard question. I'm going to go with yes simply because I fear should it be able to become too powerful of a universal counter, it could find its way into the uber tier... or for that matter invent its own tier!

One question I'd like to bring up is: If we are successful in making a Pokemon able to counter all Pokemon (Real or CAP), will it be able to counter itself? Or will this Pokemon just become too unpredictable to be countered.

Moveset-wise, naturally, a diverse movepool would be needed in order to make it an effective counter to any pokemon, but if its movepool is too diverse, it'll just be a Smeargle with good stats basically. I think we need to somewhat limit the movepool in a manner that slightly forces the trainer to give this Pokemon a unique moveset... if that even makes sense... <.<

 

[viol and bass]

Normal is only weak to one type.

I don't know if we should be talking about typing yet; we haven't even figured out general guidelines for how this concept should be implemented.

 

[P_K]

Normal is only weak to one type.

I don't know if we should be talking about typing yet; we haven't even figured out general guidelines for how this concept should be implemented.

I meant weak when attacking a pokemon of a type... although, I was wrong... Now that I think about it, the amount it three, not two... <.<

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

To what extent should this Pokemon be addressing threats? Should it be able to wall everything they use, or should it just be able to take hits well enough to be able to force them out with an attack or status?

Personally, I would like it to be able to wall everything the specific threat could use but that would be a tall order to fill and would probably make it too powerful to stay in OU. Being able to take their hits just well enough to force them out seems like a much more plausible thing to do. Now just how do we determine how much defense is "well enough" is up to the community.

Should this Pokemon be addressing threats offensively or defensively? Could this also be customized per threat by the user?

My answer is similar to Zarator's, It really depends on the threats we want it to stop. I'm not entirely what do you mean by you last question but I would say yes to it.

What kind of stats will facilitate a Pokemon that can be tailored to counter any threat? Should it be a primarily defensive Pokemon, offensive or balanced between the two?

Balance with a slightly lean towards offensive is your best bet at making CAP10 successful. It needs enough bulk to successfully come in on most attacks at least once or twice while having just enough offensive prowess in attack and speed to scare them off.

Just how limited should the Pokemon be in regard to dealing with threats that it isn’t specifically designed to counter? If the opponent doesn’t carry the threat that a particular CAP10 was customized to counter, will it become dead weight during that battle?[/LIST]

This is a hard one to answer to be honest. It shouldn't be too limited towards being able to handle Pokemon it wasn't customized to "counter". Certain threats may share similar weaknesses to one move or set, so you may unintentionally "counter" those Pokemon who you weren't trying to counter at that given time.

I don't think that CAP10 would become 100% dead weight towards a team if the opponent didn't carried the particular threat(s) CAP10 was design to stop. It might not have been 100% effective within that battle, but I wouldn't go as far as to see it's dead weight to my team.