CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 10a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Rhys29]

A lot of the moves I had worries about are gone so I don't see a need to say much. Just my thoughts on the pending moves.

Ice Shard or even Aqua Jet seems useful for CAP10 but is not even close to overpowered. Ice Shard means CAP10 has an easier time with Dragonite and Latias (somewhat) while Aqua Jet would mean CAP10 can beat Tyranitar... sort of. Useful, I'd like more discussion on these.

Rock moves seem pretty useless since Electric and Water hit both Fire and Flying hard. Weavile and mono-Bug types are the only thing hit harder with Rock Slide and Weavile can't hit hard enough to bring CAP10 down easily so it's not really an issue. I don't feel it's necessary for it to work.

Outrage is interesting. It locks CAP10 into a generally useless move for the sake of bringing down a single threat. However it does make CAP10 absolutely set up fodder and I don't see anyone using it. Dragon Pulse would be more effective at dropping Kingdra for the most part since most run a - Sp.D nature. Dragon Pulse works fine, no need for Outrage or Draco Meteor.

Low Kick is excellent. Drops heavy damage on Tyranitar without having to resort to Superpower and deals good damage to a key number of threats in OU. Things like Latias consider it a joke.

Out of all the Dark moves Sucker Punch seems to be the best. Payback is nice but Sucker Punch brings down Latias much much easier and provides a nice fall back if other priority moves are not alowed.

 

[Fuzznip]

Here are my thoughts.

I am going to suggest (not sure if anyone has suggested this yet) Megahorn to be looked at and added onto CAP 10's allowed moves. After discussing this in #cap with a few people, I realized that Megahorn is actually pretty useful against certain Pokemon. For example, with maximum Attack and a Jolly nature, you can OHKO Latias and Celebi with Stealth Rock in play, two Pokemon that CAP 10 can benefit from their removals. It should be noted that CAP 10 must be using an offensive spread in order to effectively damage them, so this is one of the possibilities a person can use when constructing their CAP 10. X-Scissor does hit the same Pokemon super effectively, but it doesn't have the amount of power Megahorn holds. I realize that there is absolutely no logical way of a shrimp using Megahorn, but thankfully, that does not matter.

Payback to be included on the allowed list. It's a pretty important move in my opinion, as it helps against a few specific threats in the OU metagame. For instance, Payback has the ability to 2HKO most Latias with minimal investment, and can even be used against Gengar and Azelf. I want this CAP to have useful moves on both the Attack and Special Attack sides, and Payback is one of those useful moves for CAP 10 that are physical.

I think Crabhammer is a great physical STAB move CAP 10 could use instead of Waterfall. It provides CAP 10 with a 90 Base Power attack, which can be helpful against specific Pokemon, and that's what we want. CAP 10 is a utility counter anyway, so it should have some moves that help it with specific Pokemon. With Crabhammer and with no Attack investment, CAP 10 can 2HKO Pokemon like Gengar, Azelf, and Jolteon, something that Waterfall fails to do. Also, CAP 10 will have consequences when running Crabhammer due to its miss chance, so you can only really use it situationally. Because I support Crabhammer, I don't think Aqua Tail is of much use to us. It's just a move in between Waterfall and Crabhammer with a chance to miss. I would say it's redundant, but that's just me.

I oppose Charge Beam. It doesn't provide CAP 10 with anything but offensive power. Charge Beam, in my opinion, is a move that will only be used on a sweeper set, as it enhances CAP 10's Special Attack to decent levels and will definitely help it become a threatening sweeper. Surf/Thunderbolt/Charge Beam provide excellent coverage in itself, and if you threw in a recovery move (which it might get) and use a somewhat defensive spread, CAP 10 can brew some trouble. Heck, it can even become a better version of RestTalk Charge Beam Cresselia. I don't want this to happen whatsoever.

I want to oppose Volt Tackle. Volt Tackle is a move that must be thoroughly discussed, because this move is an extremely powerful and dangerous attack when used properly. I believe that Volt Tackle is too powerful and gives too much offensive potential to CAP 10. Even if we try to make Volt Tackle illegal with Trace, that is not going to make CAP 10 entirely vulnerable to the recoil. CAP 10 can easily Trace an opposing CAP 10's Magic Guard and it will be able to sweep effectively with Life Orbed Volt Tackles with not recoil damage at all. That is pretty scary. Also, should CAP 10 get any form of recovery, Volt Tackle will still be an immense issue. Since CAP 10 has such enormous HP and defenses, the recoil from Volt Tackle will be minimal, so it can just recover its lost HP and continue to fire off more Volt Tackles. I'm just really afraid of how Volt Tackle turns out. This move needs to be seriously discussed, because its one of those things that can make this CAP overpowered, defeat its purpose as a counter, etc.

All I gotta say right now!

 

[petrie911]

So, quick question. If we think a move wouldn't be used much, is that actually a reason to disallow it? I mean, if it'll be broken, then by all means, it shouldn't be allowed. But if it's simply "not of much use to us", then wouldn't it make sense to allow it, to give the movepool creators more freedom?

On a mildly related note, as long as Psychic is allowed, it would make sense to allow Psycho Cut and Zen Headbutt.

 

[Darkflagrance]

So, quick question. If we think a move wouldn't be used much, is that actually a reason to disallow it? I mean, if it'll be broken, then by all means, it shouldn't be allowed. But if it's simply "not of much use to us", then wouldn't it make sense to allow it, to give the movepool creators more freedom?

Continuing off this, it's not as if we are voting on every move in CAP10's movepool in this thread. We are only deciding what should be allowed or not based on what is broken or, instead, what is apparently threatening but is really useless or redundant.

If an option is redundant or ridiculous, then it should be left up to the discretion of the creators of movepools to decide whether it adds flavor or should be cut due to space, but there is no need to forbid them for that reason alone.

 

[DougJustDoug]

This thread is going pretty good, particularly when compared to some of the lousy movepool threads we have had on most past CAP's. However, it appears that a few of you really don't get the whole "Read the OP and follow the posting rules" thing we have going on here at Create-A-Pokemon. So, I'm going to post this really big:

If there is any more mention or discussion about flavor in this thread, offending posts will be infracted and deleted -- regardless of anything else you include in the post.

It looks like Banryu has been a fairly consistent whiner on flavor, and his comments seem to be setting off even more flavor arguments in response. So, Banryu, I appreciate your participation in this thread and I know many of your posts have been competitive -- but I'm calling you out specifically to cut the crap. The OP is incredibly clear about this, so you really don't have an excuse for shitting up this thread with pointless flavor arguments.

As for the question of event restrictions with ability -- yes, that is easy to set up in Shoddy. But, we really don't need to be discussing that much in these threads. That's more of a factor for final movepool creators, since the Allowed/Disallowed categorization of any move here is not specifically tied to other moves or abilities.

Naxte - If you think we should have a Policy Review on movepools, then bring it up after CAP10. For this CAP, we do not typically concern ourselves with overall movepool considerations (how many competitive egg moves, level up moves, moves typically given to certain types, etc.) until the final movepool submission. I agree that it might be relevant to discuss that stuff here, but we don't have a framework for regulating that kind of discussion right now.

Remember -- the reason movepool discussions are so difficult to conduct is because movepools are big, complicated things. We are not going to discuss every possible facet of a movepool in a single thread. It quickly devolves into a total shitstorm and the project gets no value from it. So, out of necessity, we MUST break up the movepool discussions into pieces and discuss each part separately. That does, of course, introduce some problems because it limits certain kinds of discussion, when it might be interesting or helpful. That is a tradeoff that we understand and accept, and consider preferable to the total chaos that arises when everybody has free license to discuss everything related to moves in any movepool thread.

So, the upshot is: If you feel a bit constrained in discussing the attacking movepool right now -- that is a known, accepted, and designed aspect of the CAP movepool discussion process.

If we want to change the process after CAP10, then contact a member of the PRC and they might consider doing a Policy Review. But, for now, stay on topic.

Admin admonishments aside -- I like most of what I have seen in this thread. People aren't posting too many long boring lists, and a lot of the reasoning for or against certain moves has been thought-provoking. Good stuff here!

 

[Raikaria]

I am inclined to agree with Objection so far as that we should only give this pokemon moves necessary to beat the top pokes, but when did "any specific Pokemon" turn into "any specific OFFENSIVE pokemon"?

I also agree with DK (and others) in saying that Ice Beam and other Ice moves are probably a poor idea. And then going from there it'd be dumb not to give CAP10 Bug moves and Dragon moves.

The key word is actually counter. Offensive threats are countered. Walls are not countered, as they don't do much outside of stall. Defensive pokemon are broken, as per what Beej said.

Besides, the only defensive pokemon we 100% want this CAP to be stopped by are the bulky Normals. If we give this CAP moves strong enough to OHKO Snorlax and Blissey, it'll probobly be overpowered anyway. That's why we're not covering them. Grass moves are being avoided ydue to meh coverage, and the fact we want Swampert, a tank, to also be a check, barring HP Grass.

Now, onto some of the moves:

In regards to Draco Meteor, I am 100% against it. Aside from it being brutally powerful, and possibly spammed to hit switch-ins, Latias style, the only thing it gains coverage on is Kingdra, whom Dragon Pulse handles quite nicely already. Remember, there are other ways of countering other than a KO. Kingdra's usefulness is nutered by Thunder Wave, as an example.

In addittion, there is no possible way for this CAP to learn Draco Meteor, as it is only tutoered to Dragon-types, which this CAP is not. Smergle is the only non-dragon to get it, viva Sketch. There's precident for this rule, and only adds to the 'disallow it'. Usually, I wouldn't go into flavor, but this is effectivly making an illegal moveset... unless we end up with DM as an egg move from Kingdra... but that's going too far, IMO.

Ice Beam is more than enough to deal with Dragon-types, and Dragon Pulse gets some nice damage on Kingdra. Speaking of Ice Beam, I have no clue why there was this sudden outcry about it [Which, to me, seemed like a degree of 'Deck Knight said it! It must be right', especially as the arguments from most following posts were weak]. Ice Beam is more or less required in dealing with threats like Dragonite and Salamance. As for the 'Moveset will be Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Filler'! argument, if you seriously have a moveset like this, you are attempting to use CAP 10 as a sweeper, which will fall flat on it's face due to the low offensive stats. This thing isn't Starmie. Sure, you'll hit most things Neutral, but most things can shrug off neutral hits [Or even Super Effective, in, for example, Ice Beam vs Celebi] from CAP10's low offensive stats. Unless there is evidence that Ice Beam will be broken, it stays on the moveset. [And those 3 moves are not even close on Lanturn, and it only just has less Sp.Atk]

I am also against Outrage. Again, a Base 120 move with great coverage, screams to me that it may be spammed to catch switch-ins, especially as CAP10's targets are inevitably going to switch.

Low Kick is a way of dealing with the Bulky Normals, and thus should be disallowed. Focus Blast however, I would support as an alternate fighting-type move.

Everything else, I have no real problem over, or have already spoken about [Like Volt Tackle being overpowered, and, again, an 'Illegal' move, like DM]

 

[smallvizier]

If the move is not too powerful and does not unbalance the pokemon, I don't see why it should not be allowed. What would hydro pump allow it to beat that would be so dangerous?

When a Pokemon is designed to beat the top threats in the metagame, there's a serious risk that it become too powerful and just beat everything. The simplest way to stop this from happening is to simply hand it the moves it needs to do its job - and nothing better.

So if Surf and HP Ice, for example, are sufficient to counter what it needs to counter, then we should stop there. If they are insufficient, then we can look at more powerful moves. But upping the power simply because we don't see it being too dangerous has a good chance of creating a monster... certainly, something far more versatile than was originally envisaged.

 

[TEA_DEMON]

Surf Like I said, I believe this move adds way too much to common coverage on a large amount of targets.

I don't understand this. In order to effectively deal with a number of threats, it'll need a good STAB move, will it not? I mean hitting things super effectively will not always hit harder than neutral STAB. And with Hydro Pump disallowed atm it seems silly to not have Surf.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Yllnath, there was an error in your post. Brine's power doubles if your opponent's HP is less than half, not your HP.

 

[Skymin_Flower]

Yllnath, there are three things i would like to say.

Firstly, CAP10 should not have to rely on HP Water if it wants a decent special water STAB. CAP10 does not exactly have great offensive stats. Hell, PLUSLE has higher Sp. Attack than CAP10. CAP10 will probably need the decent powered Surf to be able to do damage to its opponents. HP Water just doesn't cut it.

Secondly why do you agree with Overheat but not Draco Meteor? As you said, "This move just fits the concept 100% in my opinion. Counter one thing, then be useless because of the stat drop." Isn't Draco Meteor basically the same thing?

And thirdly, what if we want to counter Zapdos? If it can just "shrug off" HP Ice, then what can we do? Zapdos would be a hard counter, which from my understanding of the concept, is not supposed to happen if we tailor CAP10 right. If we WANT to beat Zapdos, then imo we should be able to, if we customise it the right way. Again, HP Ice just won't cut it.

 

[Str0ngbad]

Tanz, if we are tailoring this CAP to specifically beat a narrow selection of threats then why is a neutral STAB important? We are in the offensive move discussion. It can get any move we think it needs so your argument for surf doesn't work for me. I personally don't see surf being too big of an issue even though Surf+Thunderbolt IS amazing STAB coverage.

Yllnath saved me a lot of time going over why I despise Ice Beam. It is simply because it covers too much at once. Who would bother with a bug move with Ice Beam there? Who would bother with a dragon move with Ice Beam available? Almost no one. I agree there will be 'standard' sets regardless of the moves it gets but with the coverage that Ice Beam+(STAB)Surf+(STAB)Thunderbolt the incentive to customize is all but gone. VERY against Ice Beam. Not keen on Ice Punch either but it isn't as big a deal.
EDIT: Skymin Flower, there are other moves that can be used to hit Zapdos. All of the Rock moves are still pending and would offer SE damge to some pokemon but not the great host of them that Ice does.

Against ALL moves, physical and special, that boast a possible 2HKO on Blissey/Snorlax.
For Superpower though as the attack drop allows the two to still reliably check Cap10.

Against Draco Meteor. I am not solid in this opinion though. What is this needed for that Dragon Pulse/Payback can't handle? Dragon gets such ridiculous neutral coverage that despite the SpA drop I fear this move being used to break things up rather than counter. EDIT2: also for Skymin Flower, Draco Meteor is only resisted by steels. Overheat has more safe switch ins (including Heatran). Draco Meteor is much more effective at blasting holes in a team.

Against Charge Beam. This move is entirely unnecessary and I feel that any move that can be agreed is unnecessary and is controversial should be disallowed. At best it would be a liability to consider in later movepool discussions.

Against Crosschop. In my mind this fits in the 'unnecessary and controversial' category. PLUS it threatens Blissey and Snorlax. For those of you who keep talking as if the concept includes countering these pokemon, read the bloody OP. This CAP is supposed to counter NOT wall-break.

For Bug-Buzz and X-Scissor. Again, these moves hit far less super effectively than Ice Beam/Punch so they force greater specialization. I want to say it again; AGAINST Ice Beam.

For Crabhammer. Unless someone pulls up calcs showing that it makes CAP10 a wall-breaker. It is a great option for a physical STAB. I feel that if Surf is acceptable (which is not a given) then Crabhammer should be as well.

Volt Tackle?! Really? 120 base power STAB with Life Orb and no recoil?! Okay, I know that the greatest support for this has been ability specific but according to Doug we cannot be that specific at this point in the process. That says to me that I should assume all accepted moves with both abilities. Aside from that, even with recoil it is still bad. It isn't needed to counter much specifically (I will grant you CroCune) and it makes Cap10 hit like a train. It would CRUSH far too many of CAP10's counters/checks.

Neutral on Overheat. I feel that this is almost neccessary to punish Metagross though it isn't needed for much else. I'm okay with this one going either way and am kind of on the fence about it myself.

 

[Yllnath]

@ Skymin. The only reason I didn't think Draco Meteor was really necessary was because it's only use is Kingdra. And since Kingdra is already a pain to deal with, I'd rather have something like Dragon Pulse to be able to deal with it properly. I don't really care for it otherwise, since DM will probably won't find any use outside of Kingdra. HP(Ice) hits all other dragons harder, perhaps bar Latias.

For Zapdos, there is Rock Slide and Rock Blast (for sub versions) as well as HP(rock) if needed. And since we are talking about tailoring CAP10 to specific threats, who says we can't lower CAP10s speed with a negative nature, become slower than him since most Zapdos's at least run some speed, and when we expect a roost, hit his behind with a SE Earthquake or Earth Power. And depending on the ability you choose, Zapdos can't do much back either. If he wants to PP stall you, with trace, you do the exact same thing back. If he wants to Toxic stall you, with Magic Guard, you won't take damage. And the rare offensive Zapdoses are killed off quite a bit easier.

@ Fear_my_shuckle. Fighting moves are kinda needed vs. things like TTar or perhaps. I agree Blissey should not be killed, but Snorlax can be a really offensive threat. I know since I've been swept by one on a Trick Room team lol. Because of that, what is your opinion on Low Kick? It hits about anything we want to kill with the fighting move (Heavy steels/Ttar) for huge basepowers and Blissey for laughable damage.

Edit: Forgot one reply
@Tanz. Surf is far too strong for what we want to use it's water STAB for.
Let's look at it this way.
Tbolt is it's main attack. Tbolt is walled by Dragon, other Electrics, Grass and Ground.
Of these 4, water is needed on ground. However, of the few common grounds in OU, Swampert is hit harder by grass. Gliscor and Flygon are hit harder by ice. Mamoswine is a *****, period. And Hippowdon, the only one we could actually use a strong water STAB for, is a wall. We are not supposed to wall break.

Now, things water are strong to. Fire, Ground and Rock. Ground, I already explained just now. We don't need a strong water STAB, just to go through walling Hippowdon. The only two fire types in OU is either hit way harder by EQ or EP, Heatran and Infernape is so frail, even water gun will sneeze his behind to death (not really, but you get my point). Rock is even more fun. Soo many things eat rock alive, it's not even fun anymore.

So, it's clear we don't need a strong water STAB just to let CAP10 take out a specific threat, which another move would never be able to do. For about anything water is strong against, in the CAP metagame, those pokemon often have weaknesses that are better exploited by something else than their water weakness.

Which brings the question, then why don't you want Surf? Because it brings too much neutral coverage. STAB Surf is a freaking strong attack and can be fired rather carelessly and still hurt a lot of things, even though they are getting hit neutrally. Even Swampert does not like a LO STAB Surf in his face. And that counts for a lot of pokemon. Where the concept is to tailor CAP10 so it's move pool should only be able to hit specific targets, Surf does nothing that we can't do with more efficiently with other moves in the metagame. However, it does add a lot of neutral coverage, and even from a rather low SpA stat, it will make CAP10 capable of taking out much more than it's designed to. And combined with it's primary STAB, TBolt, together, they just take out too many things with just 2 moves.

I hope that made sense, even I had trouble explain myself here.. >.>

tl;dr: Surf has barely any uses on certain threats where non-stab moves aren't better suited for the job. Instead, a lot of strong neutral coverage is added due to a high BP STAB move.

 

[Dominion]

Hmm, I suggest Judgment if we're going to have Draco Meteor. (Sarcasm)

Honestly people, this is silly, we can give this CAP any move we want, yes, but can we keep the exoticness to a level-headed degree? What would Draco Meteor accomplish that Ice Beam wouldn't? Yeah it hits Kingdra but a Trace CAP10 beats Rain Dance Kingdra. So why even bother?

Also, I'm still not seeing a valad arguement for Earthquake. Hits Electivire hard?! Hits Lucario hard? Do we need a Super Effective Move for Every. Single. OU. Pokemon?

CAP's EQ (252, +Nature, Life Orb) Vs. SDLucario = 100.4% - 118.1%
Cap's T.Punch (252, +Nature, Life Orb) Vs. SDLucario = 56.9% - 67.3%
If you catch Luke on the switch T.Punch 2HKO. CAP10 will without a doubt be faster if a LO+Magic Guard set is used in a sweeper style (252/252 offensive/speed).

Who here uses Electivire competitively? please raise your hand. Very few. Electivire counters what in today's metagame that Rotom or any other pokemon doesn't? CAP10 doesn't like Electivire, oh no? I think that a large majority of you want this CAP to have Smeargle's moveset. I will not support a CAP that has every single move in the game thats super effective against the 'entire' metagame. CAP10 has to have weaknesses, and if Electivire becomes one of them (god forbid) then so be it, becuase you know why? It is natural. Every pokemon has weaknesses and CAP10 is no exception.

What about Magnezone you ask? Who would send in Magnezone against CAP10? Magnezone has HP Grass or Fire. Only Grass is a problem but:

Magnezone (Basic Steel Killer) HP Grass Vs. same CAP10 from above does 44.2% - 52.4%. in other words: NOT ENOUGH TO KILL.

I may seem harsh but in all honesty, I doubt a large portion of you are thinking straight. Earthquake is not needed, from an Offensive (Lucario) and a Defensive (Magnezone) standpoint. Remember, I wasn't even using the best case scenario against either enemy, which says a lot.

In conclusion: Earthquake is not only unnecessary, but outperformed in many situations.

 

[Yllnath]

I think that a large majority of you want this CAP to have Smeargle's moveset. I will not support a CAP that has every single move in the game thats super effective against the 'entire' metagame. CAP10 has to have weaknesses, and if Electivire becomes one of them (god forbid) then so be it, becuase you know why? It is natural. Every pokemon has weaknesses and CAP10 is no exception.

Yes, I want CAP10 to have a shitload of moves, but give it moves that are very situational at best. It's NOT going to counter the entire metagame just because it has all those moves. 4mss still applies and with a very diverse movepool, it's even worse. And especially with a movepool with a bunch of very specific situational moves, this thing will have counters for each and every set. Just not the same counters every time.
Which is exactly what I remember from the concept discussion thread where we could even use CAP10 to bluff.. "I may be switching in because the CAP10 that I have is the perfect counter to what you have out... or maybe not". That is never going to work with 1 generic moveset..

Edit: Also, your case against Earthquake is rather limited. All steels are hit hard by EQ, with Heatran at the lead. It's not unnecessary vs, Heatran, it's actually very desired to be able to have EQ for Heatran, but also Metagross, Jirachi and other steels. Who knows, someone may be wishing for CAP10 to actually counter steels for his team and then he should be able to do so. It's the concept after all..
To quote your own very much unneeded line:
"I may seem harsh but in all honesty, I doubt a large portion of you are thinking straight", for completely neglecting the concept in this discussion by just giving it some broad coverage moves.

 

[darkchicken]

Beej, the reason a Water/Electric/Dragon set is less dangerous then a Water/Electric/Ice set is because of SE coverage. This CAPs stats are too low to wreck everything with Dragon's neutral coverage like the OU dragons do. CAP10 always needs to try for SE damage.

Ice hits 4(?) types for super effective damage, of which Dragon and Ground are quite common. Dragon only hits Dragon super effective, so it would need it (or HP Ice) to deal with dragons, if that is what it is tailored for.

The Water/Electric/Ice "Cookie Cutter" set would be prevalent, but because of the bad SE coverage of Dragon, we can't know the same for Water/Ice/Dragon.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I don't really like the idea of CAP10 'countering' Snorlax even though I know he can go offensive. He is more of a wall that can turn offensive if you aren't careful, like Suicune but even more defensive. I agree that our CAP needs a fighting type option but I think I like Superpower for the job better than low kick as the main differences are having your attack stat crippled forcing a switch and losing coverage on Snorlax. There are enough other ways to hit Steels with EQ being accepted for now and Overheat a likely candidate as well. If we decide to take Snorlax off of the list of checks/counters I would not have a problem going with low kick but as it stands we already have a pretty short list of pokemon who can come in safely.

As for Surf, I agree with you for the most part but I don't see the community nixing it. It isn't necessary for SE damage which is generally what this CAP's job description calls for imo. I just think there are too many people who are going to scream 'GameFreak!' at disallowing it. Worth the honest attempt I guess... so for now I am leaning toward no Surf. However, I think you could end up having too much trouble with ground types as a whole since they are immune to your STAB and there already will not be the option of grass moves for SE damage. Most any ground poke could come in and force CAP out. That might be a good thing as for that to happen it means your target has fled or died there needs to be more discussion on this from the rest of the community.

EDIT: I preferred to edit rather than clutter this thread more... Yllnath, keep in mind, I think that Ice Beam is a far greater problem on CAP10. So in my mind CAP10 would have neither grass nor ice moves, barring hidden power, to deal with Gliscor/Swampert/Hippowdon. Take away Surf and all three of them become pretty hard counters plus as you stated Mamoswine becomes that much more terrifying without Surf. I don't think we are supposed to consider other CAP's impact on it so you shouldn't have to worry about them. Still, I feel like being neutered by virtually any ground type is probably sacrificing too much even though I do not like the power of Surf.

 

[Yllnath]

Not to hog this thread as I'm posting a lot, but like I already said, of the few grounds actually available, quite a few have 4x weaknesses. Flygon, Gliscor get HP(Iced) to death. (So does Torterra.. just a useless piece of information). Swampert does not like grass. Rhyperior will even die to HP(water), Fidgit.. dunno. It'll be a bit annoying. Mamoswine is gonna be annoying to kill, and can nuke CAP10 with STAB EQ's. It's the only bothersome thing. But really, who uses Mamoswine frequently? Hippowdon is a wall. We decided not to break walls. Leaves only Collosoil, who is indeed rather strong. Surf could be nice for him, but giving CAP10 surf just for Collosoil, which in turn gives CAP10 a very large amount of strong neutral coverage.. Dunno. I don't like it.

 

[Zystral]

Second post in relation to the newly edited OP.

Rock Blast, Sucker Punch and Dragon Claw

Rock Blast - Putting the accuracy and low power aside... It's a multi-hit move allowing for the breaking of Subs. Substitute breaking is usually only seen on either stall-killing or wall breaking. I thought we made it perfectly clear that CAP10 should be neither of these things. As well as that, think about some things in OU that commonly use a Substitute; Breloom, Heatran, Gengar, Jirachi and Machamp. You have resist / neutral / resist / neutral / resist respectively. Heatran is hit harder by Surf and since you outspeed you can just set up Magnet Rise on it. Gengar outspeeds you and can stall you out. Jirachi also sets up on you since you can't do much without Earthquake. Machamp laughs unless you have Psychic and then Dynamicpunches you.
Rock Blast, if it is ever used, sends CAP10 in the wrong direction for what it needs to do - breaking subs just to KO them easily is way too sweeper-oriented.
Anything you would potentially use Rock Blast for is probably better of being hit by a normal move like Rock Slide or Stone Edge. If you're really desperate for a multi-hit move, which still ruins the CAP, use Icicle Spear. Better coverage.

Sucker Punch - CAP10 is fast as it is. Sure, things such as Latias, Gengar, Azelf and Starmie. Starmie can't really hurt you outside of perhaps Grass Knot or HP Grass while you OHKO it back with Thunderbolt. Azelf simiarly either Grass Knots you or tries to Explode. Gengar's Shadow Ball might hurt, and Latias can Draco Meteor you, but that's not really a necessary. Gengar has Substitute, Latias has Calm Mind/Recover, so is it really worth running Sucker Punch just to try and stop a few things you hit more reliably with say... Night Slash? Payback is in a similar vein in that it relies on them doing damage when they have other options, but at least it doesn't fail like Sucker Punch. CAP10 using Sucker Punch would only be for something like Choice Scarfed Mamoswine. Otherwise, it will just come in on other choiced sweepers and attempt a sweep rather. Most Choicers wouldn't even stay in on CAP10, so Pursuit becomes a better option anyway.

Dragon Claw - I know. Salamence has Intimidate. Use Ice Beam. The reason I suggest Dragon Claw is mainly for the likes of Latias and Dragonite. They are weaker defensively, Dragon Claw hits them super effectively, and while it's not as strong as a boosted Payback, it matches Sucker Punch's power and is a lot more reliable while giving some good coverage as well. Sure, Dragonite can take Ice Punches, but think about this; using a Ghost/Dark move to cover Latias also immediately lets you cover Ghosts/Other Psychics as well, which is just too wide a spectrum for "Utility" Counter. I don't see what's wrong with using Dragon Claw. It's probably the most consistently reliable method of dealing with Latias and Kingdra.

 

[zarator]

I think CAP10 should get both Aqua Jet and Ice Shard. Priority moves are great when it comes down to check things like DD Salamence or Tyranitar, and their low power means CAP10 won't sweep with them. Not only that, but even with Max Atk Adamant and LO, Ice Shard OHKO Salamence only with SR support (and that's not even granted), while Aqua Jet deals only roughly 40% to min/min Tyranitar. That's hardly impressive.

Also, I'd like people to stop saying X move shouldnt be allowed because it is not needed. Moves are disallowed only if they are overpowered or anyway break the concept. Saying, for example, that Hydro Pump should be disallowed because it is not better than Surf is stupid. If anything, should Hydro Pump be deemed inferior to Surf, it should be allowed instead. Or do you want to disallow Water Gun too because it is unneeded?

 

[Deck Knight]

As far as Draco Meteor, consider the following:

Draco Meteor is weaker than STAB Surf except against these types: Water, Grass, and Dragon. It is weaker than STAB Thunderbolt except against these types: Electric, Grass, Ground, Dragon.

HP Ice hits the latter targets of either move for the same damage as Draco Meteor, but doesn't lower Special Attack by two stages. Additionally, HP Ice has 100 accuracy while Draco Meteor has 90. The exception to this is, of course, the Dragons themselves, the vast majority of which are on our target list.

Dragon moves are spammed by Dragons largely because of STAB. For Salamence, Kingdra, and the rest of the motley crew, Draco Meteor has an adjusted 210 BP. It hits for more power than an unSTABbed super-effective attack with 100 or less base. In this instance it provides a reasonable means to counter Dragons without adding simultaneous coverage for Grass, Ground, and Flying types.

Draco Meteor has worse neutral coverage than either of CAP10's STABs when you consider that any use results in hitting an opponent for that damage level once. It's nearly a perfect situational move that addresses a few major threats without targeting half of the metagame.

In contrast, I think Overheat is too much. Unlike Draco Meteor, Overheat hits 4 types (Grass/Bug/Steel/Ice) for super-effective damage instead of one. Among these is Steel, which includes several defensive threats that something like Earthquake, Earth Power, or Fighting Moves don't necessarily cover (at least not while simultaneously covering defensive Grass types).

So I reiterate support for Draco Meteor, but oppose Overheat.

As far as X-Scissor, It's not that great a move on a mixed set. The only thing it particularly threatens without investment is Celebi, who is going to have trouble with a large portion of sets already. Otherwise running X-Scissor on a set without attack investment is worse generally that running Ice Punch on such a set. On the other hand, if you want to deal with Rain sweepers, X-Scissor along with something like Dragon Claw and Thunderpunch (or Volt Tackle) can deal with all the Rain sweepers.

Mostly my stance against Ice Beam and Blizzard is based on how much coverage they get. They have a ton of coverage, especially in conjunction with CAP10's STABs. I don't have a problem with Ice moves generally, just those two specifically. Physical Ice moves aren't even in the same category, since they are either too weak or too conditional, and most of the bulky Grass types run Defense EVs and Nature to boot. Icy Wind has quite a niche use against Salamence, especially considering with Trace it can knock Salamence back down to its normal statistical levels if it tries to Outrage, and be finished off the subsequent turn. I'd need to be convinced of Ice Punch either way, but I don't see it being too good or too bad.

I like Bug Buzz based out on more practical concerns. No matter where you place Signal Beam in a movepool, you can almost be assured it can get on a moveset with all other coverage moves. Depending on where you put it, you can greatly influence the potential coverage of a set. Signal Beam is weaker so I don't have a problem with it, but Bug Buzz is a far cry from too powerful a move.

I support three priority moves for CAP10: Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and Vacuum Wave. These give you decent coverage, priority on both Physical and Special sets, and a useful niche move for dealing with Salamence and Flygon. Aqua Jet is helpful for faster pokemon with weaker defense like Gengar, Aerodactyl, and Infernape. They also get a boost from Trace, which might have a reduction in Scizor's general efficacy, as now even CB U-turn could end up backfiring on an incoming counter.

As far as Surf, I think arguments against it are suspect. When we decided on Electric/Water we operated on the assumption that some Pokemon simply aren't going to be effective against them. Hippowdon should do reasonably well against physical sets with Waterfall or Crabhammer (barring a flinch or crit), but won't operate well against special sets.

 

[DarkSlay]

Hmm, I suggest Judgment if we're going to have Draco Meteor. (Sarcasm)

Honestly people, this is silly, we can give this CAP any move we want, yes, but can we keep the exoticness to a level-headed degree? What would Draco Meteor accomplish that Ice Beam wouldn't? Yeah it hits Kingdra but a Trace CAP10 beats Rain Dance Kingdra. So why even bother?

Incorrect. You are completely forgetting all about the DDKingdra running around (and potentially will be running around) that don't use rain at all. Even in Rain, a +1 Kingdra out-speeds you. You want calculations?

DDKingdra's +1 Outrage (Leftovers) vs. Offensive CAP10: 76.1% - 89.6%
DDKingdra's +1 Outrage (Life Orb) vs. Offensive CAP10: 98.9% - 116.5%

Offensive Trace CAP10 is nearly OHKO'd with Rocks down, and both Offensive abilities are 2HKO'd by Waterfall + Outrage. With LO, Outrage is a OHKO.

DDKingdra's +1 Outrage (Leftovers) vs. Defensive CAP10: 45.1% - 53% (2HKO if Trace after SR)
DDKingdra's +1 Outrage (Life Orb) vs. Defensive CAP10: 58.3% - 68.8% (2HKO)
Defensive CAP10's Dragon Pulse vs. Leftovers Kingdra: 39.7% - 47.3% (3HKO)

DDKingdra outspeeds you now no matter what, btw, as this is 252 HP/252 SpD. So CAP10 loses here too.

Like I've said before, CAP10 will lose to Kingdra one on one unless it is given Draco Meteor (and its EV's have been moved to take a +1 Outrage on Offensive sets. Heck, 252 Def/252 SpA is a great choice if one wished to counter Kingdra). An Offensive Dragon Pulse doesn't OHKO after Rocks. No basic STAB move will work on Kingdra, sorry. And Kingdra is an important Pokemon to counter, considering the fact that we now know that a OU Dragon Dance user can easily beat a Utility Counter designed to beat such threats.

Also, I'm still not seeing a valad arguement for Earthquake. Hits Electivire hard?! Hits Lucario hard? Do we need a Super Effective Move for Every. Single. OU. Pokemon?

CAP's EQ (252, +Nature, Life Orb) Vs. SDLucario = 100.4% - 118.1%
Cap's T.Punch (252, +Nature, Life Orb) Vs. SDLucario = 56.9% - 67.3%
If you catch Luke on the switch T.Punch 2HKO. CAP10 will without a doubt be faster if a LO+Magic Guard set is used in a sweeper style (252/252 offensive/speed).

At no offense to you, this is the most ridiculous argument I've ever heard from someone voting against Earthquake. Why would ANYONE switch Lucario into CAP10? All of CAP10's Special moves and STAB Physical moves will 2HKO. However, I guarantee you CAP10 will be switching in on Lucario during a Swords Dance. Or even a Close Combat. Two +2 ExtremeSpeeds KO Offensive CAP10. Two +0 Close Combats KO Offensive CAP10. A -1 SpD Surf doesn't OHKO Lucario, let alone any other move. Defensive CAP can't score 2HKO's on Lucario. I'm sorry, but if you're telling me Earthquake isn't required to beat Lucario because CAP10 can score 2HKO's on a Lucario switch-in, there's no point in arguing against Earthquake with that kind of reasoning. :/

Who here uses Electivire competitively? please raise your hand. Very few. Electivire counters what in today's metagame that Rotom or any other pokemon doesn't? CAP10 doesn't like Electivire, oh no? I think that a large majority of you want this CAP to have Smeargle's moveset. I will not support a CAP that has every single move in the game thats super effective against the 'entire' metagame. CAP10 has to have weaknesses, and if Electivire becomes one of them (god forbid) then so be it, becuase you know why? It is natural. Every pokemon has weaknesses and CAP10 is no exception.

Again, terrible logic (no offense to you). If we went by the formula that "Oh, he's not a huge threat to the metagame, so who cares?" then we shouldn't worry about Shaymin, Abomasnow, of a ton of Pokemon that CAP10 should worry about either. In fact, let's make everything not immediately threatening to the OU metagame beat CAP10! That will sure to make CAP10 do its job as a Utility Counter! /sarcasm Sorry if that sounded harsh, but it seems that you're trying to make counters out of Pokemon that shouldn't be, especially considering the fact that there are around 9 or 10 Pokemon already that perfectly counter nearly all of CAP10's proposed movesets.

Now, more to the point about Electivire. You are completely underestimating Electivire's potential against CAP10, especially considering the fact that MixVire is actually quite popular to break some of today's top teams. With that said, I'm not worried about MixVire. I'm worried about PhysicalVire, who has access to Earthquake. That's a OHKO on Offensive Trace CAP10. 2HKO on Magic Guard. If we give it investment to take the EQ, it will need something that can prevent it from getting 2HKO'd first. Since Electivire should in no way, no how, be a check to CAP10, Earthquake is the answer.

What about Magnezone you ask? Who would send in Magnezone against CAP10? Magnezone has HP Grass or Fire. Only Grass is a problem but:

Magnezone (Basic Steel Killer) HP Grass Vs. same CAP10 from above does 44.2% - 52.4%. in other words: NOT ENOUGH TO KILL.

Great! Now, what about the more threatening ScarfZone? How about SpecsZone, even? I'd do calculations, but I'm running out of time. Suffice it to say, ScarfZone is more of a threat and can 2HKO before CAP10 can beat it.

I may seem harsh but in all honesty, I doubt a large portion of you are thinking straight. Earthquake is not needed, from an Offensive (Lucario) and a Defensive (Magnezone) standpoint. Remember, I wasn't even using the best case scenario against either enemy, which says a lot.

In conclusion: Earthquake is not only unnecessary, but outperformed in many situations.

 

[hydrolphin]

Are people seriously discussing banning SURF! Water STAB is one of the main reasons we made CAP10 water type! So what if we kill a wall like Hippowdon. T-Bolt kills Skarmory quite easily. So are we going to ban Thunderbolt as well. Why don't just we ban every single move that could kill something and only give CAP10 Hidden Power. That's super customizable. You can only kill pokemon that have x4 weaknesses to that move. Seriously, when we try to restrict a pokemon to much so that it doesn't break away the concept at all, then we end up with something terrible. We were lucky with Kitsunoh, and the discover of the Wispy sets. But some people appear to only want T-Bolt+Useless coverage moves like Psychic+HP. This is just silly. When we gave CAP10 water as a typing, we did it so we wouldn't have to worry about Hippowdon and Gliscor. We didn't do it so we could deny it Surf and turn Hippo into a hard counter. When was Hippo even considered in the Counters thread?

CAP10 won't be broken by allowing Surf. It will, however, be awful if we don't allow it. There are hardly any Special options for water after Surf. You have octazooka (miserble BP and Accuracy), BubbleBeam (lol) and Brine. Brine is the only one of these moves that might sneak its way onto a pokemon. But its secondary ability is honestly, not very good. If you can get a pokemon to half health easily, than you can likewise take of the next half just as easily. If you have trouble getting to half health, then you probably shouldn't be in on it. So none of these moves are going to be very useful on CAP10. This is because a pokemon that is going to try to do serious damage NEEDS a good STAB move. T-Bolt is certainly not an ideal STAB move. If we give CAP10 all coverage and no STAB we will end up with a tankier E-Vire. But E-Vire has the ability to use its sucky coverage moves coming off 123/95 offenses. We are going to be doing NO DAMAGE WHATSOEVER off our meddling offenses. This thing has similar SpA to Swampert. Is Surf on swampert broken? Swampert also has a STAB earthquake coming off 110 base attack. CAP10 gets... um STAB T-Bolt off of that same SpA? Tentacruel too has similar SpA. When have you ever heard of Tentacruel being a sweeper? Or even an offensive threat? Here's a quote from Tentacruel's analysis:

Overall, Tentacruel is a decent Pokémon that fulfills a unique niche, but his Ground- and Electric-type weaknesses can limit his chances of switching in, and you’ll need to give him the support he needs to let him shine.

Does anyone want CAP10 to require tons of support to be a good pokemon? Admittedly, CAP10 has better defenses than Tentacruel. But if it doesn't get Surf, than it becomes WORSE offensively than Tentacruel. The only two pokemon in OU that can say that are Blissey and Smeargle. Blissey is a extremely weird pokemon compared to most, but it has no reason to attack with actual moves. Most Blissey stick to Toxic and Seismic Toss as their damaging moves and survive off of stacked entry hazards. Smeargle, on all of its sets has no attacking move even mentioned. CAP10 wouldn't be as offensively challenged as these two, but it won't be very good. Coincedentaly, those are the only two pokemon in OU who don't have a usable STAB move in their main stat. Everyone else gets all their STABs in a usable format.

Now in response that last comment, the people who want to ban Surf are going to argue "Just because Gamefreak does it all the time doesn't mean we can't!" Well, these tier lists aren't Gamefreak's doing, they are the fanbase's. And even so, there are pokemon that lack good STAB's that Gamefreak created. Like Flareon. Any pokemon that has 130 Attack and a solid STAB type has to have a serious reason its NU. Flareon lacks a good STAB move in Attack, so its religated to NU.
But CAP10 at least would have other uses without a STAB move, right? Well, when it has to compete with Gyarados, Swampert, Suicune, Vaporeon, Starmie, Empoleon, and even Tentacruel as fellow water types, I can't see how CAP10 could be useful in OU without Surf. Lanturn has both STAB's and stradles the line between UU and NU. Do you think Lanturn would be used in any tier without Surf.

Surf may not be vital to CAP10 as a concept. But surf IS vital to CAP10 as a pokemon. I would rather have a Good pokemon that doesn't quite fufuls the concept word for word, than a bad one that does only what the concept says.

 

[Deck Knight]

I want to get feedback on some more esoteric moves.

Crunch:

This move does well against Cresselia, Rotom-A, and Dusknoir, which are definitely defensive Pokemon. It also hits Latias, Starmie, Gengar, and Celebi. Most of the ghosts have the option of Will-O-Wisp to dampen it, the rest are kind of stuck.

However, given CAP10's low offensive stats, even if you combine it with Fighting moves for neutral coverage, I don't think it would be too broken. Offensively it has similar properties to Sucker Punch, save the conditional priority aspect of SP. Crunch is generally stronger than Night Slash, pound for pound, so that should be considered.

Right now I'm ambivalent on it, it sounds like a cool move with niche uses, but I'd like to be convinced either way.

Dark Pulse:

In the same vein as Crunch, except it hits Ghosts generally harder than Psychics that carry Light Screen instead of WoW. It has a flinch chance which works well with high speed to boot.

Earth Power:

The special counterpart to Earthquake. I support it because it deals with Metagross a bit better than EQ (but not as much as Flamethrower), and can hot non-CM Jirachi fairly hard as well. Bronzong is immune to it, and it can be Magnet Risen out of.

I support Earth Power.

Rock Blast - Putting the accuracy and low power aside... It's a multi-hit move allowing for the breaking of Subs. Substitute breaking is usually only seen on either stall-killing or wall breaking. I thought we made it perfectly clear that CAP10 should be neither of these things. As well as that, think about some things in OU that commonly use a Substitute; Breloom, Heatran, Gengar, Jirachi and Machamp. You have resist / neutral / resist / neutral / resist respectively.

The biggest Pokemon missing from your list is Zapdos, which was the primary driver of my Rock Blast argument. Of that combined list, only Zapdos and Gengar are really affected by it, and both of those pokemon are threatening. Actually, throw Ninjask in here too. Getting rid of SubJask is always cool.

Heatran is hit harder by Surf and since you outspeed you can just set up Magnet Rise on it. Gengar outspeeds you and can stall you out. Jirachi also sets up on you since you can't do much without Earthquake. Machamp laughs unless you have Psychic and then Dynamicpunches you.
Rock Blast, if it is ever used, sends CAP10 in the wrong direction for what it needs to do - breaking subs just to KO them easily is way too sweeper-oriented.

But as you just pointed out, Rock Blast rarely even affects the non-sweeping pokemon. Since CAP10 doesn't have Skill Link, Rock Blast needs to hit 3+ times just to break these Subs, and you've only got a decent chance of 3 hits.

Anything you would potentially use Rock Blast for is probably better of being hit by a normal move like Rock Slide or Stone Edge. If you're really desperate for a multi-hit move, which still ruins the CAP, use Icicle Spear. Better coverage.

Icicle Spear is too weak. A single hit of Rock Blast is more powerful than two hits of Icicle Spear. Two hits of Rock Blast deal the same damage as five hits of Icicle Spear. It's really Rock Blast's third (or more) hit that even makes it a viable suggestion.

 

[Banryu]

It looks like Banryu has been a fairly consistent whiner on flavor, and his comments seem to be setting off even more flavor arguments in response. So, Banryu, I appreciate your participation in this thread and I know many of your posts have been competitive -- but I'm calling you out specifically to cut the crap. The OP is incredibly clear about this, so you really don't have an excuse for shitting up this thread with pointless flavor arguments.

(etc. etc.)

So, the upshot is: If you feel a bit constrained in discussing the attacking movepool right now -- that is a known, accepted, and designed aspect of the CAP movepool discussion process.

Just to be perfectly clear, is this more in response to my more recent Volt Tackle arguments, or my earlier posts in the thread about 'not getting moves because it shouldn't be able to use them'?

In any case, yes, I get it. I guess I didn't fully understand that this is not the end-all-be-all of the offensive movepool, so I'll save my flavor crap for later, sorry.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

When people believe that stripping a Pokemon of one of it's STAB move(s) because of the whole "it would fit the concept" thing (which is starting to sound like a horrible excuse to do anything now), that when I know something wrong is going to happened and/or has happened. People are sticking way too closely towards the concept at hand which can be potentially bad in some cases. Removing moves like Ice Beam or even Surf would result in killing the Pokemon and/or concept from the inside out. That would be horrible and quite frankly make this whole endeavor rather pointless.

Beej, my personal reason for wanting to ban Ice Beam is especially because it can counter Salamence, but also Celebi and Shaymin (And flying types, Zapdos, Gliscor for example and also other grasses).

CAP10 with Ice Beam doesn't counter Celebi, Shaymin, and Zapdos hell I don't think CAP10 should be switching into any of them anytime soon. Sure it could potentially 2HKO them on switch-in, but only if you ran a sweeper set which would be counterproductive for our beloved concept. If you ran a defensive set which probably be more common those three are would only be 3-4HKO'd by Ice Beam. BTW Gliscor shouldn't be switching in on CAP10 in the first place unless it's suicidal.

It's already been said, if Celebi comes in on an Ice beam, it dies to the next Ice Beam without being able to do anything. That's how well Ice Beam performs.

So we're going to strip it of Ice Beam because of Celebi? If Celebi switches in on an Ice Beam/Buzz Bug then it's Celebi fault for switching in on a super effective move. You're saying we should punish the user with CAP10 for predicting the Celebi switch-in and acting appropriately?

And it performs well on a whole host of pokemon. The broad SE coverage you can score with just 1 moveset is the problem here. By removing Ice Beam and for instance getting bug and dragon moves, you now have to run Surf/TBolt/Dragon if you want to kill Salamence, but Celebi is completely safe. If we want to kill Celebi, we can run Bug Buzz, and Salamence is completely safe. If we want to ruin both, then Zapdos, who would otherwise dislike Ice Beam, can counter a Surf/Tbolt/Dragon/Bug set rather well.

The concept is to tailor CAP10 to counter a specific pokemon (or group of pokemons at max), while doing nothing to a whole host of pokemon. The support for Surf/Tbolt/Ice, which counters or checka LARGE LIST of pokemon all in one moveset (See drkSlay's calculations, which are all just done with one moveset alone), is completely against the concept imo.

Actually, he used three moveset for those calculations also one could run a Surf/TBolt/HP (Ice)/Bug Buzz set and still hit a large list of Pokemon, though Zapdos, Shaymin and Swampert can check him better. The whole tailoring idea would probably still be a bust because people would still use some kind of Water/Electric/Ice/Filler set to counter things so removing Ice Beam wouldn't solve that problem.