CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 12b - Complete Movepool Poll 1

[beej]

Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the last competitive poll of CAP 10! Once we have decided on the movepool, the only thing left is the sprite poll and I will decide the weight of the Pokemon.

almost done

Name: Utility Counter
General Description: This Pokemon is capable of being customized to counter virtually any specific Pokemon, but is incapable of countering a large number of Pokemon at the same time.
Justification: It is not unusual for people to say that "versatility is broken" from an offensive standpoint; less attention is given to versatile defensive Pokemon such as Zapdos or Hariyama. This Pokemon would allow us to study the impact of having a Pokemon that is capable of dealing with such varied threats as Salamence, Lucario, and Gengar....but not all at once.
Questions To Be Answered:
--How useful is defensive versatility in a metagame with so many different threats to account for?
--Given the existence of a Pokemon that can hard counter only specific major threats, which threats will be prepared for the most?
--How would team building change if certain difficult-to-prepare-for threats became easier to prepare for?
--Which is more useful, a Pokemon that can somewhat handle a wide range of threats, or a Pokemon that can handle a few threats extremely well?

Name: Krilowatt
Typing: Water/Electric
Stat Spread: 151/84/73/83/74/105
Ability: Trace
Ability: Magic Guard

Submissions:

Admiral_Korski

Rising_Dusk

Deck Knight

Jibaku

ZystraL

----

Rules:

We will not allow posts in this topic such as "I voted Movepool." Put some substance into your post. This means that you need to back up your post with reasoning or you will be infracted.

No being a Negative Nancy. As in, don't post complaining about how all the movepools suck or how your submission didn't get in. CAP is designed in a way that inherently doesn't give everybody what they want, so quit complaining.


I would also like to note that the movepools in this slate may all look the same on the surface, but if you take the time to look into what each of them have to offer, you will notice very key differences. I strongly urge you to look into what you're voting for, because if you don't know why you're voting for a movepool other than a name, you might as well be voting randomly.

This is last competitive thing we need to decide, guys. Krilowatt is almost done. Happy voting!

 

[HeavyOctillery]

After carefully looking over all of the movesets, Korski's was the clear one for me to go with. First of all, I like the way he weaved the shrimp relation directly into the level-up movepool. Secondly, it doesn't have Superpower, Draco Meteor, or Aqua Jet, of which are either redundant (DM) or overkill (SP, AJ).

He'll most likely win even without my vote, but I voted anyway.

 

[zarator]

Voted for Jibaku at last. My reasoning was pretty much an "exclusion process":

Admiral Korski: I didn't like at all the lack of Sucker Punch, that move has to be in Krilowatt's movepool IMO

Rising_Dusk: The absence of X-Scissor let me down. One of the submissions I liked the most, honestly, but not enough to be the favourite one.

Deck Knight: Sorry Deck, but as soon as I noticed the lack of Ice Beam/Blizzard I stopped reading. That move is too important.

Zystral: Ultimately it was a choice between Jibaku and Zystral, but in the end I preferred to not give CAP10 Superpower. It crosses the edge of brokenness a bit too decidedly IMO.

I didn't bother reading the level-up list (mainly focusing on what was lacking on each submission), so I won't comment on flavor and such

 

[Seizen]

I voted for Deck Knight.

To try to mitigate the amount of hatred anyone supporting another person may aim at me, my reasoning is thus:

Despite the fact that Ice Beam/Blizzard is "needed", without them we now need to properly think "Hmm... which is more effective: Physical, Special or Mixed?" With that in mind, Deck withdrew the two predominant Special Ice moves, and now we no longer have the ultimate coverage set in Surf/Bolt/Beam/Filler. Yes yes, it's not supposed to do it that well, but this way it cannot be done period.

Secondly, in a way, it seems to me as if Deck had already got an idea for his movepool when he submitted his statpool, and the moves reflect the stats quite well.

 

[sax king]

Voted Jibaku

At first, I was going with Korski, but then I decided that CAP 10 needs sucker punch, and that superpower was going to make it too broken. Dusk's set wasn't terrible, yet I still felt that Jibaku had some things that Dusk needed, like X-Scissor and Ancientpower. Deck Knight's seemed terrible to me, with no Ice Beam, Blizzard, Counter, or Mirror Coat. ZystraL's set was bad either, but I like having Snatch, just to counter specific threats, and I think it's weird to put it in the dragon group and to give it sky attack.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Admiral Korski: I didn't like at all the lack of Sucker Punch, that move has to be in Krilowatt's movepool IMO

At first, I was going with Korski, but then I decided that CAP 10 needs sucker punch.

If you guys don't mind, could you explain why Krilowatt needs Sucker Punch within it's movepool, because I don't see the necessitate of it.

 

[Banryu]

Admiral Korski: Voted for. Feels the most like the moveset an actual Pokemon might get in-game (barring Hydrocannon and Heart Swap), and feels to me like the best one competetively-speaking.

Rising Dusk: In terms of flavor and competetiveness both, I didn't really care for his movepool choices. The inclusion of certain moves I don't like coupled with the disclusion of certain ones I do makes me not really like it competetively, and flavor-wise, it doesn't really end up feeling like the type of creature it visually feels like.

Jibaku: Probably my second favorite, I just ended up liking Korski's move, mostly in terms of minor flavor issues. Competetively, it's just as good as Korski's in my mind, though.

Deck Knight: I like this one because of the odd gimmicks like Worry Seed, Magic Coat, etc, but I disagree that Kril needs to have an attack of nearly every type on both sides of the spectrum, and what's more, the deliberate disclusion of Ice Beam is still just weird. Despite the fact that his logic behind the decision is quite valid competetively-speaking, it doesn't make much sense flavor-wise considering that literally every other Water-type in existence (except, of course, Magikarp) gets it. Interesting competetively, but flavor-wise, I just don't think it fits.

ZystraL: Probably the one I like least flavor-wise.... the egg group doesn't make a lot of sense and a lot of flavor, egg, and other moves included are just weird on Krilowatt. Competetively speaking, I'm really missing the inclusion of Counter and Mirror Coat (like a couple other movepools), and I don't really see it as having anything that makes it particularly stand out against other movepools.

Since my explanations were a little vague despite their length, here's a more straightforward list of exactly what I'm looking for... it's in terms of both flavor and competitiveness, mind, I'm just not specifying per-move.

Moves I like to see:
- Counter / Mirror Coat
- X-Scissor & Signal Beam (and bug moves in general, really)
- Imprison
- Flash Cannon
- Aqua Jet (only for flavor purposes; I'm still not sure whether or not it's good enough to distort Kril concept-wise, and if it is, I'd be willing to change my thoughts on it)
- Me First
- Mind Reader (just in place of Lock-On; Mind Reader makes more sense flavor-wise)

Moves I don't like to see:
- Crabhammer & Guillotine
- Draco Meteor
- Superpower
- Sucker Punch
- Hydrocannon

Moves I'm ignoring the presence of (AKA, I don't like, but not factoring into my decision) :
- Heart Swap
- elemental punches

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I know everyone hates flavor, but it's perfectly within my rights to base my vote on the grounds of flavor. That said, that's definitely NOT the sole basis of my vote, but I realize that I don't discuss much competetively in my explanations.

 

[beej]

This poll is supposed to be open for 24 hours. However, I'm not going to be here at or around 1:31 PM today because of school. The poll will be closing at that time, but the next poll will be posted sometime from 4-5 PM today, when I get home. Just a heads up.

 

[zarator]

If you guys don't mind, could you explain why Krilowatt needs Sucker Punch within it's movepool, because I don't see the necessitate of it.

Sucker Punch: I agree with the previous posters that Sucker Punch needs to be allowed. Yes, it covers some great threats like Latias, Gengar, Starmie, Azelf (which is rarely seen outside the lead role anyway) and Rotom, but when you take a look at the damage calcs, you'll see that Sucker Punch needs a Physical spread to be effective, and the physical set is already enoughly jeopardized to "deserve" such a good addition. To those who think that CAP10 could utilize Sucker Punch to do revenge-killing job in general, I urge you to check the damage output (even with physical EV, let alone without), and see by yourself how much SP pales when used against neutral, not-so-frail Pokémon (hint: Jolteon will still take a hit).

Check the bolded part in my post. It is a bit too concise of an answer, I know, but the main reason is that one.

 

[Str0ngbad]

Voting for Deck Knight was a no-brainer for me. The absence of Ice Beam/Blizzard forces Kril to sacrifice something in order to gain Ice coverage. What's more, everything that those moves hit can be covered with other moves but fewer at a time. This forces Kril to choose specific targets to counter rather than slapping a tried and true Bolt/Beam on and calling it good. I do not understand why more people do not see the benefit in this.

Additionally, he easily had the most interesting and diverse gimmick moves of all the submissions. I also agree with his and others lack of Counter/Mirror Coat. Even without Kril's mammoth HP stat each one counters an entire spectrum of pokemon. Well outside the concept.

 

[Raikaria]

As all the movepools are good, and I like most of them, I ended up choosing based on what I DISLIKED about them. And, by disliked, I mean, disliked competivily, not flavor.

The Admiral: Great Flavor, and includes most of what I wanted to see. I'm kinda iffy about Vaccum Wave, as I'm personally against Priority on Krillowatt, but it's weak priority, and dosen't get STAB. None of the High-Power Dragon moves showing up is a plus too.

Rising Dusk: I disagree with several things on his movepool, first and formost, Draco Meteor, last thing Krillowatt needs is the ability to switch in, almost certainly forcing a switch, and being able to fire off a LO Draco Meteor, with no cost to itself, hitting anything bar Steels for a decent chunk of damage. I'm also against Outrage, as it's coverage and high power could form a 'Cleaning' moveset like Starmie, Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Outrage with a Life Orb, and Krill's Base Speed would clean games up very nicely, even if it's a mixed set. Starmie with a Dragon-Move...

Basically, my least favorite of the lot.

Deck Knight: Lack of Ice Beam is unessacary, as Krillowatt won't be sweeping with it's stats. While it might be a cleaner, not a sweeper, it kinda needs a high-power move to abuse to clean as well. Anyway, the ability to slay things like Mance and Flygon is vital, especially as Krill has the potetial to be a great Mance counter.

Jikabu: Draco Meteor makes an appearance, and it has Aqua Jet, which I'm not a great fan of.

Zystal's movepool has the same things I dislike as Jikabu's, Draco Meteor and Aqua Jet.

In summary, I'm voting for the Admiral, mostly because I am totally against Krillowatt having Draco Meteor, and [albeit, slightly less] against Outrage. Aqua Jet is also high on my 'Do not want' list as well.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Draco Meteor, last thing Krillowatt needs is the ability to switch in, almost certainly forcing a switch, and being able to fire off a LO Draco Meteor, with no cost to itself, hitting anything bar Steels for a decent chunk of damage.

I'm so sick of hearing this. A neutral Surf or Thunderbolt hurts more than a neutral Draco Meteor ever will. Just do the math with STAB factored in. Krilowatt's Draco Meteor isn't winning Krilowatt any free damage awards like Specs Latias gets with hers. There's literally no reason not to include it other than "people flip out and won't vote for it if you do include it", which, admittedly, is a pretty good reason not to include it if you want to win. I care more about the end product than winning, though, so oh well.

I was really hoping for more than 3.4% of the votes, though..

 

[SinisterSamurai]

I almost voted for Korski's set. I really, really liked the gimmick of giving it Zap Cannon and Hydro Cannon at the same level (and later giving it Flash Cannon. Lols indeed.) However, that's basically all that I liked about it. Even though it's creative, it's still a gimmick. And when I saw all the moves that weren't included, I knew I couldn't vote for it.

ZystraL's set is my other favorite, flavor-wise. It's got everything I wanted to see (short of seismic toss), and so much more. Camouflage, while basically unused, should have been a flavor shoe-in on everyone's set.

I ended up voting for Deck Knight's, however. DK's was the only one with enough votes to compete with the Admiral. On top of that, this set is the one that has the potential to teach us the most about the metagame, and it is also the only one that made sacrifices in order to better fit the original concept, rather than sacrifices for personal flavor preferences.

A lot of people got real pissy at Deck Knight for the exclusion of Ice Beam and Blizzard. Some said nothing more than "Those moves are important," without explanation, while others are too mired down in precedent and flavor to really have a competitive voice in the matter.

For those that say it's too important, what does Ice Beam threaten that isn't handled by another move in the set? Which common OU/CAP threat is hit only by Ice Beam? DK has redundant coverage for everything Ice would hit. Everyone compares CAP10 to Starmie for some bizarre reason, citing that Starmie isn't broken. Even if that's the case, what do we really learn about the metagame by making another Starmie?

As for Draco Meteor and Superpower, math has shown time and again that those are the only two ways for Krilowatt to deal with a few specific threats, where other moves just do not cut it before CAP10 is dead.

I will end by basically laughing at Raikaria. He slams Dusk for adding a "high-damage" move like Draco meteor, (tsk tsk), and then in the very next breath slams Deck Knight for not including a high power/high coverage move like ice beam.

 

[DougJustDoug]

Great job by all movepool submitters. I think this is the best movepool slate ever presented in a CAP project. The amount of preparation, time, and presentation that went into each movepool is amazing. Some people think making a movepool is as simple as throwing together a few movelists. In this CAP, the movepool submitters show how much detail and forethought is required to produce a top-notch movepool. Overall, I think the movepool portion of this CAP (the move discussions and the full movepool threads) has been the best in CAP history. In the past, the movepool part of CAP has usually turned out to be a bit of a mess, to put it politely. But for CAP10, I think it went very smoothly. Congratulations to everyone that has participated heavily in this part of the process.

As for this poll, I had a tough time deciding. All of them are good, and I will be happy if any of them win. But, like all CAP polls, ultimately you can only choose one -- and I do have some preferences.

Zystral - This was my least favorite, mainly due to the fact that it has so much in it. But, that's exactly what Zy was going for -- and it is the "hook" for many people to vote for it. For people that want a wide, powerful movepool, then this is the one to vote for. I prefer movepools to be more targeted and focused, so this wasn't really my cup of tea. But, I think Zy should be proud of this submission, and it will likely have many supporters.

Jibaku - This has a lot of compelling competitive options, and I really like how Jibaku considered things like doubles. This was a great way to give the movepool flavor, while being firmly rooted in competitive principles. This is one of the few times a CAP movepool submitter legitimately addressed doubles play, and it added a lot. It just shows the kind of detailed thinking that went into Jibaku's submission. Other aspects of the movepool are all very solid, but it just didn't stand out for me as much as the others.

Deck Knight - Great job making a bold movepool that really separates itself from the crowd. The decision to omit ice beam is controversial, but has solid competitive merit, and should get support from a significant number of voters. I personally agree with the omission, but not enough to overcome some of the positive features of Korski and RD's movepools. I also like the gimmicks in this movepool (no Deck Knight movepool would be complete without them), but most of them aren't the sorts of gimmicks I could see myself playing. That's not a slam on it, but they just didn't hit home for me this time around.

So the decision really came down to Korski versus Rising Dusk for me. And it was VERY hard for me to choose.

Korski - Wow. I love it. You have all the key competitive omissions that I want, and you have the best flavor movepool by far. I think you did a great job with this submission. I really can't say anything bad about it, other than the fact that I thought Rising Dusk's just edged you out a bit with its competitive focus.

Rising Dusk -- This is the one I voted for. I don't like some of the moves you included, and you will likely not get votes because of it. But, it's a good lesson to learn for future polls. If you want to win in the future, you really need to tailor your submission to be palatable to a wide voting base. That usually means that you need to compromise on some of your own personal preferences. Or, just don't try to win -- many submitters couldn't care less about winning. But, if you want to win, you usually have to pander to the audience somewhat. Not always, but usually. Anyway, the thing that impressed me the most was how you presented a very focused competitive movepool that has very clear goals, with very logical competitive sets in mind. Yes, all movepool submitters have sets in mind -- but yours really seemed in a class by itself in that regard. The work and preparation in this movepool really stood out to me, and ultimately overcame my other objections. Great job.

 

[beej]

I have decided to move the top three movepools to the next poll. Those would be Admiral_Korski's, Deck Knight's and Jibaku's. Congrats, guys.