CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 3 - Secondary Typing Poll 1

[Str0ngbad]

Rhys: I completely agree with you on every point you made I believe. I voted for water simply because I know how many people WOULD vote levitate as an ability for Poison without even considering the other options and I hate to see a lack of brainstorming. It is not a bad ability in the least. On the contrary I feel it is far too good leaving CAP without a weakness worth mentioning. With water I am hoping that both weaknesses will stay since, as you already pointed out, this thing is already going to be countering waaaay too many things at a time the way things are going. By the way, I am hoping this thing weighs more than a Wailord with Rosie O'Donnell on its back. (Though judging by everyone's posts they intend to make it weigh less than Vaporeon...)

Dominion: I know you haven't been using levitate to justify poison and that a 4x ground weakness CAN be worked around. But leaving the Poison voters who are using levitate as an excuse out of it, just the number of people that think it would make CAP10 useless is a warning flag that if we went with Poison the majority would demand levitate. So I was being a wuss and trying to minimize the damage. Hopefully there will still be some weaknesses with water when we are done with it...
EDIT: I may have voted a little hastily. Sorry Poison.

I fear that as a community many of us are thinking of CAP10 as a universal counter and should start thinking about what its weak spots are going to be.

 

[pkmn-taicho321]

Well I'm happy with either one but I'm a favorite for Poison

It's a unique type that doesn't see a lot of play in the top tiers. With only 2 weaknesses it's a good typing and a fairly neutral offensive type. With roserade becoming a bit popular it's also great to have a pokemon that can absorb Toxic Spikes just by switching in.

 

[Lucario_Skywalker]

Duh! Water!

If this is a utility counter, it MUST be able to switch into Earthquake. Electric isn't helping, and Poison will make it even worse. Using Levitate prevents us from using another useful ability (not that Levitate isn't useful) that could prove to counter better than any other (*coughTRACEcough*). Plus, Water can be offensive OR defensive, which matches the concept of CAP10. For example, you usually counter Scizor defensively, using resists (you could use Magnezone with HP Fire, but that's beside the point). But you usually counter Blissey offensively, using high-powered physical moves. If this needs to be tailored to counter stuff, it will need to be able to go offensive or defensive.

 

[Midou]

At first I really was on the water's side, but after reading the arguments for Poison, I changed my bias. Besides just being a unique typing, there are a couple of interesting points about the typing that have been touched upon. I also believe the water's resistances are being overrated (especially concerning fire/ice) and that the resistances provided by poison are just the opposite. Fighting resistance is very useful when forming a team, and though it can be addressed by adding a ghost type, only the rotom appliances can honestly be considered useful checks/counters to things, and its usually not to fighting types. Bug resistances is, of course, interesting but not vital, and the possibility of absorbing toxic spikes is definitely a plus.

My favor is definitely towards a grounded electric/poison. Yes, you need to address the possibility of switching into an EQ, but why would you do that with this pokemon anyway? If you see a cbmence or ddmence and expect it to EQ your lucario, you wouldn't send in your scarf'd jirachi, would you? Anyway, to assume the silent majority of poison supporters to be levitate supports would be folly. Looking over the list of voters who voted towards poison was proof enough for me.

 

[Zystral]

The problem I have with Poison (or Steel for that matter as was discussed in IRC) was that it forces us to take Levitate or an ability and reduces Ground damage, which I think it counter-productive to what we're looking for in CAP10.

That said, while Poison adds some nice Bug and Fighting resistances, I think the x4 Ground weakness too big to overlook, plus Water gives us a Fire, Ice and Water resistance, as well as a few others.

The only possible disadvantage I can think of with Water is that we'd have to make it very light in order to avoid Grass Knot. But that's a limitation imposed mainly on Art and Flavour, which don't matter anyway.

 

[Blue_Tornado]

I think Rhys' initial post is probably the best post in this thread, and completely won me over in favor of Poison. Levitate is by no means a bad thing to have as a must, and resisting Fighting is excellent for a Pokemon like this. Fighting is a really underrated attacking type, especially in today's metagame, and a resistance to that is invaluable. A Pokemon that will "squeeze in" a set to counter or check certain Pokemon simply thanks to item/EVs/attacks/ability must need a good ammount of health to take assults liek it was EVd for, and Spikes resistance will be an enormous help here. I'm sure I'm missing some other stuff, but I'm sure these props overweigh Water, and therefore I voted Poison.

 

[Objection]

The good news is that both typing options available add only one type to the list of weaknesses, meaning that since CAP10's concept lends itself more to a defensive pokemon than a heavily offensive one, I can now validly claim that the best typing is the one that offers the best resistances. The bad news is, we never specified which resistances were best so we still can't be entirely sure of the best typing for the job.

I just want to point out now that if we're really that concerned with reducing the damage from Earthquake, Levitate is not the only ability that can do this. That's not to say that I oppose Levitate; however, people have been falsely restricting the options, which is a logical fallacy. My point relevant to typing is that an objection to Poison-type on the grounds that we need Levitate is an invalid objection. I'll elaborate more on my general point about abilities in the abilities discussion thread.

Furthermore, as fear my shuckle said, we need to consider what other than four moveslot syndrome is going to be CAP10's Achilles' heel. I propose that we do this after the typing is decided.

 

[Dominion]

I already have a Stat spread that will be it's achille's heel, but thats much later on and isn't affect by the type polling. The typing could be ???/Normal and my stat spread wouldn't change.

If we decide that this pokemon's only achille's heel(s) comes in the form of Stat distribution, ability and movepool, then we are leaving it without a single crippling flaw. Usually, having 1 major flaw is unwanted but I honestly feel that wit hthis pokemon, we want one. We want a flaw so bad that it literally forces us to move additional movesets, wacky EV spreads and over all more unique play styles in order to work around this gaping hole. For example, 1 moveset may try to alleviate the ground weakness via ability or move. While another person may say screw it, I need that extra moveslot to counter X. This of course does not mean we have to give this pokemon levitate or magnet rise or any other ability/move that would nullify it's weaknesses.

If this pokemon does become Water/Electric, then we would have to address the huge hole that would become Grass Knot. While a low weight would handle it (And something I would feel to be a cop-out), it would still take a massive beating from Celebi and other HP Grass users (Which, many people do infact use on a regular basis).

It's literally "Pick your poison" and I'm still backing the 'poison' type.

Edit: Also, after this pokemon counters it's specific threat, the enemy should be able to come in and have an easy time attacking this pokemon. This pokemon should not and is not suppose to be able to take out it's specified target, then be able to modestly sweep with amazing coverage. If you want this CAP to do it's job, then it has to have major weaknesses. And I mean reall,y it 'has to have' or else it simply becomes a check to everything all at once.

Edit #2: Giving this pokemon the Water type isn't alleviating it's X2 weakness already, it simply gives it a check. A check that becomes moot if this pokemon doesn't have proper speed investment. Your effectly broadening this thing's flaws. We don't want alot of little flaws, as they become very easy to fill. You want few very large flaws that require alot of flexibility and sacrifice to get rid of.

 

[ShravanP]

Voted Poison.

Reasons for voting

Why is every so upset with Levitate being a set ability? People are actually complaining that using said combination of types will make Levitate invaluable because it can deal with a lot more threats. Yeah, that would suck if CAP10 was doing it's job. Last time I checked Levitate was a fantastic ability and it only adds to the utility of either types. Helps it switch in and take down many of the EQ spammers in OU. Also protects it from Spikes and TS so it can't be hindered by those which would help it work as a stall counter if need be. At the same time Poison could use a non-Levitate secondary ability and soak up the TS which only adds to versatility. Makes sure it isn't trapped by Dugtrio/Trapinch as a final note. There's literally nothing negative about giving it Levitate.

Anything that's weak to EQ will never effectively bring down DD Mence/Gyarados/Tyranitar without proper priority, stats, etc. Metagross has the incredibly bulky Defense stats of 80 HP and 130 Defense and without a + nature and tons of defensive investment it's OHKO'd by +1 LO Earthquake from neutral attacking natures. Still can't touch SD Gliscor who will OHKO with STAB EQ. Still can't counter CB sets on anything carrying Earthquake. Still can't switch into Specs/LO Heatran without heavy prediction. If you avoid Levitate with Water/Electric you'll just be forced to use another ability that deals with it's Ground weakness so you're not solving the problem.

I'm not 100% against Water, it's just using Ice resistance as arguing points is... odd. Ice is almost never STAB'd so it won't be powerful enough to make a difference. HP-Ice from Zapdos isn't going to do much to CAP10 regardless of resistance or weakness. And if it is STAB'd, it's Ice Punch from Weavile. Gasp. So Ice really only has a single threat and a pretty lame one at that. Fire is more viable to an extent but with only Heatran and Infernape firing off STAB shots it's not that impressive of a resistance. Heat Wave from Zapdos struggles to 2HKO standard Gliscor who has terrible Sp.D resistances. The only other true mentionables are Overheat from Rotom and Fire Blast from Salamence. These are much better arguments but still not the best as most things with a decent Sp.D can deal with them and moves like Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor will be feared much more anyways. Random HP-Fire's and Flamethrowers on things that don't use them well (Blissey, lead Azelf) are the only others and don't really make it worthwhile. Water is better, but still not over the top fantastic. Helps against Gyarados but it can still abuse your weakness to Ground. Helps against Crocune, but it will still set up all over your ass unless CAP10 gets Taunt, a fantastic Attack stat, or something else to break it but that would be poll jumping. Helps against Vaporeon, but so does immunity to Toxic, any amount of special bulk, and STAB Electric attacks. The main enemy would be Empoleon, but it's uncommon. However without a Water resist it's incredibly difficult to bring down Sub/Petaya (though weakness to Grass Knot doesn't do it too much better). Only other mentionables are Latias and Swampert who both have much more threatening attacks.

The same can be said about a lot of Poison's resistances, I am well aware, but most of those are STAB attacks. Scizor uses U-Turn and Bug Bite and Celebi uses Grass. Only two real worthy mentions, but being able to counter Scizor for sure will be extremely useful. Electric is more than mentionable, since Zapdos, Jolteon and Magnezone lose their main powerful STAB and are forced to use lesser means in order to damage CAP10, like the apparently threatening Heat Wave and HP-Ice/Fire which won't matter if your set is tailored to counter those with heavy Sp.D investments.

Resisting Fighting is a much much more viable point however. CAP10 will not be able to counter Lucario without it. If a +2 LO Close Combat can OHKO defensive Skarmory then there is no way a Pokemon who isn't meant to have super high defenses is going to be able to take it. And what about Machamp? The only way to really deal with it on most teams is to carry a Ghost type or hope you can stall it down with Zapdos or Gyarados. And Machamp carries attacks for both those types of defenses. Not to mention CB Machamp would tear Water/Electric typing open with STAB Dynamic Punch as it does to everything without a resist. Breloom also crushes CAP10 without an issue, resisting both STABs and easily smashing it with either Focus Punch or Seed Bomb (while Poison resists both) and I really don't see anyway it can fix it.

I see both side's statements but Poison shines clear imo. If Fire/Ice is such a valuable resistance to have there is always Thick Fat. The opponent will never know you're ability without proper scouting and it should only be brought out to deal with one specific threat. This means the only logical resistance being missed out on is Water, which is a nice resistance to have but not 100% necessary. I'd much rather take the Fighting resist > Water resist. W/E works but it just doesn't compare to P/E imo.

What needs to be changed about CAP10

Honestly the mission statement itself is near impossible to work with. We would need forms in order to deal with every threat. As long as Steel isn't used we will never counter Draco Meteor spamming without a large Sp.D. You won't be able to deal with Outrages without huge Defense or Steel typing. But CAP10 can't have massive defenses as it would be able to wall a good deal of other things. Since we've already decided no Steel it basically can't be done without making up some magical, overpowered ability.

By saying we can counter any one specific Pokemon we are making a Pokemon that can counter everything essentially at once. This can only be done by type coverage that no weaknesses, and since both the types we are voting on do have weaknesses, they will not work. The only thing that would is a massively defensive Ghost/Dark type (or any other type combination that has no weaknesses) or a Levitating Electric type. And thus it would become the best wall ever since it can counter virtually anything.

Forms would be the only way to keep this in check and this would make the mission statement work. Very customizable, with type combinations it CAN handle virtually any Pokemon in the game, and with those types different stats so they work with their resistances and advantages to handle specific threats. That needed to be said, done ranting.

I totally understand your points, and you make a very good argument. But do consider one thing. This goes to other prospective Poison voters as well.

I'm going to use this post from the discussion thread as a reference: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2527413&postcount=91.

I wanted to originally vote Poison too, but after going through the procedure of listing out things that it can counter and things that counter it, I realized that Electric/Poison would become too much of a GENERAL counter.

I agree that if we go with Poison, then Levitate is almost a given. But then what happens is that any Pokemon with Electric/Poison and Levitate, REGARDLESS of stat spread and movepool (provided we don't give it Deoxys-A defenses), will ALWAYS Wall or even Hard Counter a certain set of Pokemon. And this list includes Scizor, Togekiss (barring Flinchax), Skarmory, Magnezone, Heracross, Machamp, Forretress, Hippowdon, and Gliscor. ALL of these Pokemon, regardless of which moveset they use, will most likely NEVER lay a finger on CAP10. It doesn't matter if we have tailored an instance of CAP10 to beat DDdos, NPape, or Crocune. Any form or version of CAP10 with Electric/Poison and levitate will Hard Counter all or most of the above Pokemon that I've listed.

The same cannot be said for Electric/Water. The list of Pokemon that it Hard Counters is a much more tame group of Skarmory, Vaporeon, Suicune, Tentacruel, Jirachi (barring Flinchax). Maybe I've missed one or two, but the main point is that Electric/Water will not force us to use Levitate, allowing us to further customize CAP10 at later stages. So early in the process, it is not good to force ourselves down a certain route.

We can still counter DDmence, DDdos, or any other hard-hitting EQ threat without the use of Levitate if we opt for Electric/Water. We have many other options open to us, including priority moves, high speed, recovery moves, things like Magnet Rise, etc. If we can tailor this to switch into those threats on the move that they DD and immediately pose a great threat, then we can consider our job done. This is without even looking at the possibilities of bulky defenses or custom options.

For this, I feel that Water is much better suited to this than Poison.

 

[Rhys29]

Hopefully we can prevent this later through limited TMs and HMs, but a wide array of egg moves. This will allow us to restrict which ones this poke can learn at a given time.

This was the only other way around the problem I could think of. However Water/Electric/Ice is only resisted by Lanturn (not Electric/Water typing itself) which means CAP10 has an incredibly impressive hit on a lot of threats, including every one I mentioned in my first post, with just one added type beyond STAbs. And it still doesn't solve the problem completely.

More about why Poison/Electric is a more suitable choice

CAP10 needs to be able to take the two most powerful attacks in OU on both sides in order to function. Ignoring weakness and resistance, I made several quick calcs to figure out which move was the most powerful (I chose to ignore Metagross' Explosion as no counter should really be prepared for that and needless to say it is by far the most powerful attack). The defenses were just rough numbers, 100 Defense and 1000 HP.

+2 LO Lucario's Close Combat: 1171 - 1378 (117.10% - 137.80%)
+2 LO Scizor's Bug Bite: 994 - 1170 (99.40% - 117.00%)
+1 LO Salamence's Outrage: 1014 - 1194 (101.40% - 119.40%)
+1 LO Machamp's Close Combat: 994 - 1170 (99.40% - 117.00%)
+2 Swarm LO Heracross' Megahorn: 1921 - 2262 (192.10% - 226.20%)

Dear lord. So CAP10 would need to be able to take a +2 LO Swarm boosted Megahorn from Adamant Heracross. Now for the Special spectrum.

+1 FF Heatran's Overheat: 1336 - 1573 (133.60% - 157.30%)
+2 LO Azelf's Psychic: 961 - 1132 (96.10% - 113.20%)
+1 Torrent Empoleon's Hydro Pump: 1326 - 1561 (132.60% - 156.10%)
+2 Blaze LO Infernape's Fire Blast: 1690 - 1990 (169.00% - 199.00%)

Wow, didn't know NP Nape could hit that hard. Neither of the types we have limited ourselves to can wall both types (Thick Fat Poison/Electric can however).

So let's see... let's just start off giving it a nice even HP stat of 100. This way CAP10 would be able to counter Blissey regardless and just seems like a nice HP stat. Now what defenses would it need to survive these attacks while taking a minimum of 12.5% from Stealth Rock on the switch in.

Base 100 HP / 240 Defense: 304 - 358 (75.25% - 88.61%) (7.69% chance of OHKO, about the same as a crit)
Base 100 HP / 205 Special Defense: 304 - 358 (75.25% - 88.61%)

So it would need absolutely ridiculous defenses in order to deal with both said threats. Like bulk beyond reason. Maybe if we increase the HP...

Base 150 HP / 185 Defense: 304 - 358 (75.25% - 88.61%)
Base 150 HP / 155 Special Defense: 376 - 444 (74.60% - 88.10%)

Needless to say it would become the most potent wall in the game. Well looking at what we have now, Poison/Electric with Thick Fat resists both moves. Perhaps this will solve our stat issue?

Base 100 HP / 95 Defense: 303 - 357 (75.00% - 88.37%)
Base 100 HP / 80 Special Defense: 297 - 351 (73.51% - 86.88%)

That makes life a lot easier. A lot. And would give us a lot of room to move stats around. So really our main bet on surviving the most powerful attacks in OU is to use Poison/Electric with Thick Fat (perhaps Flash Fire but that would be pretty dumb tbh). Best part is neither of these two pack a Ground attack so it's safe to run such ability.

But... what about the other attacks? This is the best resistance coverage we can possibly achieve with the current base types. Even if we survive the most powerful attacks using resistances, attacks from +1 Mence and Empoleon still shred this thing apart. Let's check on the most powerful unresisted moves are on our current spread.

Base 100 HP / 95 Defense vs Salamence: 322 - 379 (79.70% - 93.81%)
Base 100 HP / 80 Special Defense vs Empoleon: 360 - 424 (89.11% - 104.95%)

Huh. Not bad, a bit of improvement on both defenses could make it happen.

Base 100 HP / 104 Defense vs Salamence: 301 - 355 (74.50% - 87.87%)
Base 100 HP / 105 Special Defense vs Empoleon: 301 - 355 (74.50% - 87.87%)

Wow. Very doable. We could even increase the HP to lower the amount of defenses we would need to pump into it. So Poison/Electric can actually acheive our goal. But wait. Those defenses are fantastic. And with Ice it can also take down Dragonite and Latias. It would need Earthquake or something to deal with Infernape, which would alow it to OHKO Tyranitar, etc. Electric to deal with Empoleon takes care of Gyarados, Vaporeon, Starmie, Suicune, and anything else that is weak to Electric as well. So even though counter the most powerful threats in OU is possible we will still fail the mission statement since it may counter one set but still covers a vast majority of the metagame.

Still the only way we will get close is using Poison/Electric.

EDIT: ShravanP you are right, it would be a general counter. The one error you made was you assumed the ability for Poison/Electric yet gave none for Water/Electric. If you gave it Levitate as well there would be a lot more Pokes countered just by it's existance. Gyarados, Hippowdon, Gliscor, etc. Saying one side is more advantageous than the other by giving it an advantage is an... odd... argument. Poison/Electric doesn't counter half those types without Levitate while being able to counter a whole new set of others with a different ability.

 

[Phi]

I'm in favor of poison partially because while it will force Levitate or something to be one of its abilities to allow it to counter threats that try to exploit its 4x ground weakness, the choice offered would be something like if Bronzong had Flash Fire instead of Heatproof - since most Pokemon carry either a ground or fire move to hit steel types for supereffective damage, ideally you could make tailor what Bronzong is able to totally wall in any situation. Of course, since Bronzong lacks a non-Rest recovery move and Heatproof only halves fire damage rather than makes him immune to it, the choice just limits his switch in opportunities and long-term viability instead. But, especially since with a poison type the choice between levitate or not also means whether or not CAP 10 can take toxic spikes, poison's combination with electric will be pretty interesting.
Also, as other people have noted, water basically gives CAP 10 too good of a STAB combination and reduces the need for multiple movesets to counter different threats.

 

[ShravanP]

ShravanP you are right, it would be a general counter. The one error you made was you assumed the ability for Poison/Electric yet gave none for Water/Electric. If you gave it Levitate as well there would be a lot more Pokes countered just by it's existance. Gyarados, Hippowdon, Gliscor, etc. Saying one side is more advantageous than the other by giving it an advantage is an... odd... argument. Poison/Electric doesn't counter half those types without Levitate while being able to counter a whole new set of others with a different ability.

It's not so much an assumption as it is a compulsion to use Levitate on Electric/Poison. IMO, a 4x weakness on a Pokemon that is meant to be a Utility Counter is not something that can be ignored. We'd end up being afraid to switch into something like BRONZONG out of fear of EQ if we do ignore it. You're right, with and without levitate is a big difference on both typings. But the thing with Water is that we don't have nearly the same degree of compulsion to counter the ground weakness. It just seems to grant a greater degree of freedom without really sacrificing too much on the benefits provided by Poison.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

I voted Water because the combination of Water and Electric offers very useful resists across the board to the Pokemon, combined with very few weaknesses that are all easy to deal with via sufficient bulk or ability immunities. It also isn't crippling to have a 2x ground weakness, so we aren't forced to use Levitate as the ability no matter what to compensate. I feel that this versatility let's us experiment with other, cool abilities alongside Levitate such as Trace or whatever. It doesn't stifle the creative process.

For these reasons, let's get us a Water/Electric CAP10!

 

[Dominion]

Electric/Water is a more powerful general counter than electric/poison due to the massive type coverage both Electric and Water provide. So your arguement again Electric/Poison concerning generalization is backwards.

 

[ShravanP]

That is only on the offensive side, though. We will be controlling that aspect a lot in the coming weeks to ensure it won't turn into a big type coverage sweeper.

 

[Rhys29]

But the thing with Water is that we don't have nearly the same degree of compulsion to counter the ground weakness.

Why. I think those arguing this point don't comprehend how crippling a Ground weakness is, be it x4 or x2. It really doesn't change the fact that CAP10 will never counter any physical attacker that commonly runs Earthquake without Levitate as long as it is weak to Ground while staying within the boundaries of the mission statement. Without having to resist Outrage I've already given low base stats to survive a +1 Outrage (base 100 HP and 104 Defense for example which is already ludicrously high and would make it counter much more with stats alone) which is weaker than an SE Earthquake. Everyone who supports Water/Electric just stop stating it 'solves' the Ground weakness. It does not in any way. You are already KO'd by powerful Ground attacks. People don't avoid Dry Skin on Parasect because they don't want the extra Fire weakness.

I'm not ignoring the Ground weakness, no matter how severe. No matter our typing or abilities there will always be something CAP10 will never counter. Without massive Sp.D Poison/Electric will never counter Empoleon/Azelf and without massive MASSIVE Def Water/Electric will never counter Heracross/Infernape/Machamp/Gallade. I once again support forms unless it is too late. This would accomplish everything in the mission statement and, quite honestly, make everyone happy. We can have several types with several stats. Hell we could just turn this voting into the first form and go from there.

Any comments that are made about 'hindering attacking types' is pretty pointless on Water/Electric. Water/Ice/Electric smashes just about everything in the OU metagame and scores neutral on everything else and it would and should always have access to this coverage. Poison/Electric can't exactly argue the same thing as it too should have access to a wide variety of moves that can take down several threats at once and the only thing that would be truely lost is STAB Water attacks (or Water in general). Arguments about hindering for either side should be avoided.

 

[Echo172]

E/P

I voted Electric/Poison

Levitate is a great ability but not the only one that could possibly work, so I disagree with anyone who says that /Poison would prevent creativity when designing it. It's not nearly as defensive as a bulky Elec/Water type, but I think the brand new type combo could spawn a more original CAP than Lanturn's cousin would.

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

we need to consider what other than four moveslot syndrome is going to be CAP10's Achilles' heel. I propose that we do this after the typing is decided.

I already had an idea of making either it's stat spread or it's movepool it's Achille's heel but then I thought isn't the ground weakness and the need for prediction enough of an Achille's heel for this creature?

Also, after this pokemon counters it's specific threat, the enemy should be able to come in and have an easy time attacking this pokemon. This pokemon should not and is not suppose to be able to take out it's specified target, then be able to modestly sweep with amazing coverage. If you want this CAP to do it's job, then it has to have major weaknesses. And I mean really it 'has to have' or else it simply becomes a check to everything all at once.

So we're making a Pokemon that's 99% dead weight to all but those it's trying to "hard counter?" We're not even done with the typing polls and already CAP10 sounds likes a failure. I know the mission statements says it shouldn't be able to counter/check (seriously check is more reasonable) at once, but it shouldn't be 100% useless and/or cannon fodder if the threats in questions aren't present within that battle. It should have some non-concept related uses within a team.

We don't want alot of little flaws, as they become very easy to fill. You want few very large flaws that require alot of flexibility and sacrifice to get rid of.

Hopefully not too many sacrifices or be too flexibility or else it won't be able to support itself and/or it's teammates very well.

 

[Dummy007]

A very difficult decision, but I voted Water.

Access to a reliable Ice-type move is important on something like this. Without Ice Beam/Blizzard, the only ways it can hit Dragon-types are via Hidden Power and Ice Punch/Fang.

Electric/Water also means that there will be slightly less of a need for Levitiate. Obviously, Ground attacks will hurt either way, but with a solid Defense stat (hopefully), some weaker Quakes won't doom it. In addition, a 2x Ground weakness (as opposed to 4x) means that a non-damage-lowering ability could also work.

One important thing about countering is that the Pokemon must be able to kill or force out the opponent. Poison just doesn't hit enough Pokemon super-effectively to be a good attacking type. Water has solid neutral coverage, and, more importantly, grants access to Ice-type Special moves.

Once again, a very close vote. Whichever wins will be good. (Also, formes could work...)

 

[ShravanP]

Why. I think those arguing this point don't comprehend how crippling a Ground weakness is, be it x4 or x2. It really doesn't change the fact that CAP10 will never counter any physical attacker that commonly runs Earthquake without Levitate as long as it is weak to Ground while staying within the boundaries of the mission statement. Without having to resist Outrage I've already given low base stats to survive a +1 Outrage (base 100 HP and 104 Defense for example which is already ludicrously high and would make it counter much more with stats alone) which is weaker than an SE Earthquake. Everyone who supports Water/Electric just stop stating it 'solves' the Ground weakness. It does not in any way. You are already KO'd by powerful Ground attacks. People don't avoid Dry Skin on Parasect because they don't want the extra Fire weakness.

I'm not ignoring the Ground weakness, no matter how severe. No matter our typing or abilities there will always be something CAP10 will never counter. Without massive Sp.D Poison/Electric will never counter Empoleon/Azelf and without massive MASSIVE Def Water/Electric will never counter Heracross/Infernape/Machamp/Gallade. I once again support forms unless it is too late. This would accomplish everything in the mission statement and, quite honestly, make everyone happy. We can have several types with several stats. Hell we could just turn this voting into the first form and go from there.

Any comments that are made about 'hindering attacking types' is pretty pointless on Water/Electric. Water/Ice/Electric smashes just about everything in the OU metagame and scores neutral on everything else and it would and should always have access to this coverage. Poison/Electric can't exactly argue the same thing as it too should have access to a wide variety of moves that can take down several threats at once and the only thing that would be truely lost is STAB Water attacks (or Water in general). Arguments about hindering for either side should be avoided.

Hmm, you're right, Water/Electric will not solve the ground weakness. But at the least, it will not force us into a situation where we fear every weak unboosted EQ. Water/Electric will certainly not laugh at the stronger Earthquakes out there, but it will at least not hesitate against the weaker ones.

But all this said, Electric/Poison is still a great typing, and we can do some amazing things regardless of which way this goes. Let's wait and see.

 

[Tortferngatr]

Alright...this is half the reason I wanted Electric/Grass......kind of got hasty there...

I decided that a 4x Ground weakness would hinder the concept more than a Grass weakness. Electric/Poison would make cool art, but I agree with predictions of a wasted ability slot for Levitate...

Hence, I voted Electric/Water.

 

[P_K]

Okay... to be flat out honest, there was also plenty of support for fighting and mono-electric, so I'm not even sure if I want to vote simply because those typing combos had a lot of support, but didn't make it.

Nevertheless, I shall vote, and I vote for water; Too many CAP projects have unique typing. This is no exception, considering only one non-NFE has this typing, but it is the better of two evils, I suppose... I'm starting to worry a little bit about this CAP... (Then again, it IS my first time actually participating in one, so I'm going to give it the benefit of the doubt, and brush aside my worries for now)

I once again support forms unless it is too late.

I also support this notion- Electric/Water or Electric/Poison are not very good typings suitable for a "customizable" Pokemon. I think the original idea behind this CAP may have even been more or less lost during the discussions of typing; People were focusing so much on STAB, resistances, weaknesses, etc, that the ability the need to maximize the customization feature of this CAP seems to have been overshadowed, if not forgotten.

 

[hydrolphin]

My comments are in bold.

Why is every so upset with Levitate being a set ability? People are actually complaining that using said combination of types will make Levitate invaluable because it can deal with a lot more threats. Yeah, that would suck if CAP10 was doing it's job. Last time I checked Levitate was a fantastic ability and it only adds to the utility of either types. Helps it switch in and take down many of the EQ spammers in OU. Also protects it from Spikes and TS so it can't be hindered by those which would help it work as a stall counter if need be. At the same time Poison could use a non-Levitate secondary ability and soak up the TS which only adds to versatility. Makes sure it isn't trapped by Dugtrio/Trapinch as a final note. There's literally nothing negative about giving it Levitate.

The negative thing about Levitate is being locked into it as an ability choice. Yes, Levitate is a great ability. But there are tons of other great abilities as well, some of which are more unique to CAP10 and much more interesting. The CAP process is about exploring things that aren't in current OU. Electric/Poison is unique typing, but a tank w/ levitate is not. Electric/Water has been done before, but only once, on a pokemon with a cool niche, but not an effective, consistant OU pokemon. No one ever said Levitate was a bad ability for CAP10, merely that its bad that CAP10 depends on Levitate to function.

Anything that's weak to EQ will never effectively bring down DD Mence/Gyarados/Tyranitar without proper priority, stats, etc. Metagross has the incredibly bulky Defense stats of 80 HP and 130 Defense and without a + nature and tons of defensive investment it's OHKO'd by +1 LO Earthquake from neutral attacking natures. Still can't touch SD Gliscor who will OHKO with STAB EQ. Still can't counter CB sets on anything carrying Earthquake. Still can't switch into Specs/LO Heatran without heavy prediction. If you avoid Levitate with Water/Electric you'll just be forced to use another ability that deals with it's Ground weakness so you're not solving the problem.

First of all, you say that this thing could never counter Gyarados, Mence, et al., if EQ weak, without the right stats. You can't really counter them anyway w/o the right stats or other stuff. But Water/Electric is a better bet to counter both T-Tar and Gyarados, due to its typing. A Water/Electric pokemon will need less investment in its defenses to beat Gyarados as it resists waterfall. A Water/Electric pokemon will need less investment in its offensies to beat T-Tar because it has a STAB SE attack.

And if a DDMence gets the chance to use DD, and you don't lower its attack with Trace or Intimidate or something, your more than dead anyway. STAB Outrage has a BP of 180, while SE EQ has a BP of 200 - not much difference. Sure if your Electric/poison had Levitate it could take an EQ, but neither is gonna take an Outrage without serious investment + something extra, like Trace/Intimidate for the switch in, and/or Ice Shard. The former option does not work if you already have Levitate. So even without the Ground weak, Electric/Poison w/ Levitate will fail to counter DDMence.

I'm not 100% against Water, it's just using Ice resistance as arguing points is... odd. Ice is almost never STAB'd so it won't be powerful enough to make a difference. HP-Ice from Zapdos isn't going to do much to CAP10 regardless of resistance or weakness. And if it is STAB'd, it's Ice Punch from Weavile. Gasp. So Ice really only has a single threat and a pretty lame one at that.

So the only users of Ice moves are Zapdos and Weavile? What about Tyranaboah? Sure, its not the most used T-Tar set, but it always has and Ice Beam. What about Starmie, who carries Ice Beam 63% of the time? Or all the Ice Beaming bulky waters? Ice is a very common attacking type, and while the hits aren't normally very powerful, the difference between 20% and 10% of your HP is HUGE. An Ice resistance gives CAP10 a bunch of little hits that it can come in on and brush off easily.

Fire is more viable to an extent but with only Heatran and Infernape firing off STAB shots it's not that impressive of a resistance. Heat Wave from Zapdos struggles to 2HKO standard Gliscor who has terrible Sp.D resistances. The only other true mentionables are Overheat from Rotom and Fire Blast from Salamence. These are much better arguments but still not the best as most things with a decent Sp.D can deal with them and moves like Shadow Ball and Draco Meteor will be feared much more anyways. Random HP-Fire's and Flamethrowers on things that don't use them well (Blissey, lead Azelf) are the only others and don't really make it worthwhile.

Again, you underestimate the difference how important the amount of health you save is. When battles come down to damage rolls, that 10% of extra health will be vital.

An d Just a note, but a resisted Rotom Overheat is a pretty awesome switch in. Not only do you take little damage, but Rotom is forced out. A neutral hit is much more crippling, making you much more vunerable to revenge killing.

Water is better, but still not over the top fantastic. Helps against Gyarados but it can still abuse your weakness to Ground. Helps against Crocune, but it will still set up all over your ass unless CAP10 gets Taunt, a fantastic Attack stat, or something else to break it but that would be poll jumping. Helps against Vaporeon, but so does immunity to Toxic, any amount of special bulk, and STAB Electric attacks. The main enemy would be Empoleon, but it's uncommon. However without a Water resist it's incredibly difficult to bring down Sub/Petaya (though weakness to Grass Knot doesn't do it too much better). Only other mentionables are Latias and Swampert who both have much more threatening attacks.

Water is an AWESOME resistance, if only for Gyarados. Gyarados isn't even sure to be carrying EQ. EQ usage is going down, as it isn't the greatest typing to pair with water. I would much rather be able to switch in on a spammed Waterfall with Trace/Intimidate than predict an EQ with Levitate, that is only there half the time. A Water resistance makes this a sure-fire counter to half Gyarados (all if it gets good speed, and checks them if it doesn't). Levitate makes it a shaky switch in to one half of all Gyarados. And again you forget Starmie. Starmie is a potent threat and one of the most used water types. A water/electric CAP is a hard counter especially if its light, to avoid random Grass Knots. An Electric/Poison CAP is weak to one of Starmie's stab moves-the lesser one alright, but it still sees use. CAP10 is dead weight if its easily revenged, and water helps prevent that, as it resists common moves of revengers, like Heatran's FB, Starmie's Surf, Hydro Pump, and Ice Beam, and a very lovely x4 four resist on Scizor's BP.


The same can be said about a lot of Poison's resistances, I am well aware, but most of those are STAB attacks. Scizor uses U-Turn and Bug Bite and Celebi uses Grass. Only two real worthy mentions, but being able to counter Scizor for sure will be extremely useful.

I don't know where you got the idea that the ability to switch in on U-Turn means you can counter Scizor. Yeah, you resist it, but they can switch straight away to a CAP10 counter. Scizor will have done its job. CAP10 will have not. And don't say anything about Bug Bite, as it is inferior on CB Scizor (the best and most danergous set) to U-Turn and is only used 11.8% of the time.

Electric is more than mentionable, since Zapdos, Jolteon and Magnezone lose their main powerful STAB and are forced to use lesser means in order to damage CAP10, like the apparently threatening Heat Wave and HP-Ice/Fire which won't matter if your set is tailored to counter those with heavy Sp.D investments.

Here's a point I am willing to conceed. The worst thing about Water as a secondary type is the lack of an Electric resist.

Resisting Fighting is a much much more viable point however. CAP10 will not be able to counter Lucario without it. If a +2 LO Close Combat can OHKO defensive Skarmory then there is no way a Pokemon who isn't meant to have super high defenses is going to be able to take it. And what about Machamp? The only way to really deal with it on most teams is to carry a Ghost type or hope you can stall it down with Zapdos or Gyarados. And Machamp carries attacks for both those types of defenses. Not to mention CB Machamp would tear Water/Electric typing open with STAB Dynamic Punch as it does to everything without a resist. Breloom also crushes CAP10 without an issue, resisting both STABs and easily smashing it with either Focus Punch or Seed Bomb (while Poison resists both) and I really don't see anyway it can fix it.

First of all, don't talk about countering Machamp with a Fighting resist. Dynamicpunch will get the better of any non-ghost pokemon without those super defenses. And yes Lucario can OHKO Skarmory, who has a measily 65 base HP. I don't imagine CAP10 getting that little HP. And its not a good idea to switch any pokemon in on a +2 CC, even with a resist. If you want to kill a SD Luke, you either switch in on the SD and outspeed, or you revenge it after a CC.

Breloom is a completely different issue. Yeah an Electric/Poison CAP could switch in on his attacking moves, but what about Spore? Again we come across the issue of locking ourselves into Levitate-we essentially have to have Levitate as one of the two abilities, eliminating a spot for something like Insomnia or Trace, which could help with specific threats. This pokemon needs customability to conform to the concept. When you fill in levitate as one of the abilities, you lose some of that customability by giving CAP10 an ability that helps out most everywhere.

I see both side's statements but Poison shines clear imo. If Fire/Ice is such a valuable resistance to have there is always Thick Fat. Thick Fat AND Levitate? Do you really want TWO type specific abilities? The opponent will never know you're ability without proper scouting and it should only be brought out to deal with one specific threat. Most people will know that when you switch in on Gyarados, you are going to try and counter Gyarados. And Levitate is one of the easiest abilities to scout for-just set up some Spikes or TS. If CAP10 hits/absorbs them, no Levitate. This means the only logical resistance being missed out on is Water, which is a nice resistance to have but not 100% necessary. I'd much rather take the Fighting resist > Water resist. W/E works but it just doesn't compare to P/E imo.

So yeah... I voted water if you couldn't tell.

 

[2gig]

The good news is that both typing options available add only one type to the list of weaknesses, meaning that since CAP10's concept lends itself more to a defensive pokemon than a heavily offensive one, I can now validly claim that the best typing is the one that offers the best resistances. The bad news is, we never specified which resistances were best so we still can't be entirely sure of the best typing for the job.

Precisely. People were just like "O hey lets throw on a bunch of resistances so it can switch on, regardless of what weaknesses we attach and how damning they are", and now we have this mess. Fighting mono was the best option, electric mono would've been acceptable. The best we can do now is try to make it as unlikely as possible that people who still don't seem to understand the concept will spam Levitate votes, as Levitate, especially on a poison type, would be a kick in the nuts to the concept. Poison means an increased likelihood that people will want levitate, so I'm going with Water.

I just want to point out now that if we're really that concerned with reducing the damage from Earthquake, Levitate is not the only ability that can do this. That's not to say that I oppose Levitate; however, people have been falsely restricting the options, which is a logical fallacy. My point relevant to typing is that an objection to Poison-type on the grounds that we need Levitate is an invalid objection. I'll elaborate more on my general point about abilities in the abilities discussion thread.

I don't object to the poison typing because it "needs" levitate. I would object to levitate even if we ended up with a poison type. I object to poison because it means voters will likely give CAP10 levitate.

Furthermore, as fear my shuckle said, we need to consider what other than four moveslot syndrome is going to be CAP10's Achilles' heel. I propose that we do this after the typing is decided.

Well, considering the concept is basically lost if we go with Levitate, a Ground type weakness is a pretty good start. Prediction is somewhat involved in countering (though zero-prediction-required counters do exist in some cases). So a tricky time switching in seems to be a good chunk of his weakness (which hurts the concept greatly, but levitate would hurt it even more). Having a discussion about what CAP10's specific weakness will be will result in a big poll-jumpy mess.

 

[familyguyman]

Water for sure. It was my pick for main typing and my pick for secondary.

The benefits far outweigh the problems Water adds to Electric.