CAP 10 CAP 10 - Part 8 - Counters Discussion

[Gothic Togekiss]

DrkSlay ~ I was going to mentioned that Hydro Pump allows CAP10 to 2HKO/OHKO Pokemon like Swampert, Zapdos, most forms of T-tar, Staraptor but your statement does seem to have some solid points to them. I guess Hydro Pump isn't all that needed for it to do it's job.

 

[Deck Knight]

More to the point, Hydro Pump would assist in sweeping far too greatly.

I will say something in defenses of Superpower though, and why both it and Cross Chop should be in the movepool. Superpower has more initial offensive power and perfect accuracy, so it is much more reliable in specific situations where it can net a OHKO.

I have been doubting my original thoughts on movepool quite a bit. Specifically I'm thinking of removing Fire moves because they help too much against Bronzong and Forry.

Magnet Rise does help quite a bit, as it forces Swampert and Hippowdon to Roar if they want to try and do damage again, in addition to slowing down Metagross. It also helps against things like Bronzong that utilize Earthquake on a regular basis. It eats of a moveslot so that provides a considerable level of balance. If you run Water/Electric/Ice and Magnet Rise you don't have recovery to keep CAP10 going, and there's little distinguishing you from something like Starmie, which doesn't have a Ground weakness.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

More to the point, Hydro Pump would assist in sweeping far too greatly.

Agreed, furthermore, I do not want CAP10 to have the possibility to massively damage Swampert without running HPGrass on its move set.

:::::::

To pose another question to the community...

The point of this discussion is to decide as a community what we feel should be CAP10's checks and/or counters. Once we've made these decisions, we can proceed to decide a movepool appropriate for that. It is not the other way around. We do not decide a movepool and then see what that movepool happens to get beaten by.

That's why I am reiterating that I don't care what calculations are made with CAP10's Grass Knot or Energy Ball. I want CAP10 to be checked reasonably by Swampery. Furthermore, I want the Grass-types of OU to fare well against CAP10. Abomasnow, Celebi, Shaymin, and Roserade all come to mind. I don't expect CAP10 to be helpless against them, but I want it to be an unfavorable matchup for CAP10.

CAP10 being a utility counter in no way implies that it must be unbeatable by the metagame. That's what we call an Uber, in case you were wondering. I very much want to see something like the following be a plausible and potentially common situation.

• Lucario switches into CBTTar Crunch.
• Lucario uses Swords Dance / CAP10 switches in.
• Lucario switches out to Celebi / CAP10 uses Earthquake.
• CAP10 switches out / Celebi uses Leaf Storm.

Note that even though CAP10 was forced out, it succeeded at countering Lucario. This is important, especially for CAP10 to play as a fair and contributing member of the OU metagame. Let's consider another situation that might illustrate my point a bit more.

• Salamence switches into a Taunted Blissey.
• Salamence uses Dragon Dance / CAP10 switches in.
• Salamence switches out to Celebi / CAP10 uses Ice Beam.
• CAP10 uses Ice Beam / Celebi faints.

That's a problem, I feel. There exist only two Pokemon that can be even reasonably used in OU taht both come to mind and resist or are immune to both of CAP10's STABs while being neutral at worst to Ice Beam: Lanturn and Abomasnow. (Ludicolo is neutral to TBolt) This comes down to the question: "Do you think Celebi and Shaymin should reliably check all variants of CAP10?" I want to say yes, especially to avoid having to resort to Parafusion Lanturn or Abomasnow that brings Hail to a team that probably won't appreciate it.

What do you all think of that?

 

[Anachronism]

That second log was slightly misleading. First of all, CAP 10 doesn't beat dd Mence unless it invests pretty heavily in Defense, and it doesn't 2hko celebi unless it invests heavily in SpA, so it is unlikely you will be doing both.

Secondly, Celebi switched right into an Ice Beam! It should face _some_ consequences for doing so. If they went to a bulky water and then switched in Celebi then Celebi would win.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

That second log was slightly misleading. First of all, CAP 10 doesn't beat dd Mence unless it invests pretty heavily in Defense, and it doesn't 2hko celebi unless it invests heavily in SpA, so it is unlikely you will be doing both.

False. Switch into DDMence survive the EQ even with SR down because of Magic Guard (Or go for Trace, both work) and thus force Mence out or to die, and you can still invest heavily in SpA. Furthermore, you assume that Mence's user knows which set of CAP10 you're running. Would you be willing to sacrifice your DDMence on the chance that you might nail a totally offensive CAP10? In most cases, I didn't think so.

Secondly, Celebi switched right into an Ice Beam! It should face _some_ consequences for doing so. If they went to a bulky water and then switched in Celebi then Celebi would win.

That was sort of the point... Should Celebi be a weak check to CAP10, as switching into an Ice Beam that 2HKOs makes it, or should CAP10's Ice-type attack fail to 2HKO defensive Celebi under all situations - thus making Celebi a solid check to CAP10?

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

More to the point, Hydro Pump would assist in sweeping far too greatly.

How so? DrkSlay mentioned that you're not missing much in terms of scoring important 2HKO/OHKO on Pokemon if you used Hydro Pump. The only Pokemon that are 2HKO from it are Mixpert/Choice Band Pert, some forms of Zapdos, and most forms of T-Tars.

Now to Rising_Dusk point, I personally think Celebi, Shaymin, and Swampert already check CAP10 decently well even if CAP10 gain moves like Grass Knot and/or Bug Buzz. BTW, what Pokemon other than Swampert or Celebi would you use Grass Knot or Bug Buzz for?

Edit:

That was sort of the point... Should Celebi be a weak check to CAP10, as switching into an Ice Beam that 2HKOs makes it, or should CAP10's Ice-type attack fail to 2HKO defensive Celebi under all situations - thus making Celebi a solid check to CAP10?

It would be a 2HKO if it came in on a "sweeper" CAP10. It's probably not a 2HKO if CAP10 wasn't offensive geared so I say that Celebi would still be a "solid" check regardless of Ice Beam.

 

[beej]

I'm a little concerned that we're spending too much time talking about movepools and not enough talking about specific counters. We're generally discussing things in the direction that I wanted us to move in, so I'm happy with that, but I kind of wanted to come to a consensus on some specific threats. As you read on, due note that any Pokemon/group of mons that's bolded is something that I am effectively supporting as a counter.

First of all, I have this idea in my head that most defensive Pokemon that are inherently used to sponge hits and tank out should not be in the direct jurisdiction of this Pokemon, because then you would be turning it into a wall breaker. Examples of threats that I would be very happy with NOT trying to "counter" are defensive versions of Swampert, pretty much any Pokemon known as a "bulky-<type>", special tanks like Blissey and Snorlax, and defensive RestTalkers. The idea behind this concept in the first place is that there is a variety of threats in the metagame that require an immediate response, and we're building a Pokemon that can be tossed into a final team slot and customized to deal with any one of these threats situationally. However, this does not equate to using CAP10 because that weakness is to something like stall, and it also doesn't equate to using CAP10 because we want to BREAK something. Swampert is a particularly interesting case, because if we decide to not give this thing a Grass move, we are opening up the door to making Swampert a soft counter, or even a hard counter if we don't give it a strong enough Water STAB, and I think this is a very healthy thing. Another interesting case is defensive Celebi. Again, this is not a THREAT. Defensive Celebi is used primarily to switch into threats and counter them, and to be able to beat it is to be breaking a wall. We have opportunities in the following polls to make sure that a defensive Celebi can feasibly switch into a good number of our sets and become a soft counter. Again, this is a GOOD thing.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I think in order to be under the jurisdiction of the utility counter, you need to be a threat of some kind in that you're initiating some kind of strategy. Walls and tanks exist largely as fallback, and they're not really initiating anything at all. To try to beat these Pokemon is not a part of the job description we've been handed by the concept, and as such, I support making a good number of purely defensive Pokemon soft/hard counters to this. Examples are, of course, in my post.

By midnight, this thread will have been open for two days. It makes sense to close it then, but considering how the next few hours of discussion go in terms of activity, I might choose to keep it open for an additional couple of hours (let's say until like, 3 AM). So keep this in mind.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

BTW, what Pokemon other than Swampert or Celebi would you use Grass Knot or Bug Buzz for?

Nothing, of course.

I fail to see why we should invest in CAP10's movepool the ability to beat reliably so many things that should check it. I feel that things like Grass Knot and Bug Buzz should be absent from CAP10's movepool specifically so that Celebi and Swampert can be more reliable checks or even counters to CAP10. If you want to beat these specific checks, use the appropriate Hidden Power. Hydro Pump serves no purpose on CAP10 except to further punish its supposed checks in Swampert and ScarfTar (who still hates Surf, but can at least outspeed you and hit you with EQ). It adequately counters every offensive threat it should with Surf and Waterfall and some assorted coverage moves.

We should not be thinking about ways to make CAP10 beat everything that gives it trouble. All of the Pokemon that give it trouble are not major or setup offensive threats in the first place, so CAP10 has no place countering them as well. I want Celebi to not have to scout the entirety of CAP10's movepool before switching in for fear of the OHKO from Bug Buzz. I do not want Swampert having to scout the entirety of CAP10's movepool for fear of the deadly Grass Knot. I want them to be able to switch in and at worst be caught by a nasty Hidden Power they weren't expecting. (70BP at most) That is my point with how "reliable" of checks I want them to be.

Defensive Celebi is used primarily to switch into threats and counter them, and to be able to beat it is to be breaking a wall. We have opportunities in the following polls to make sure that a defensive Celebi can feasibly switch into a good number of our sets and become a soft counter. Again, this is a GOOD thing.

I am exceedingly relieved that you agree with me.

 

[Paradox]

I'm in full agreement with Dusk and BEEJ. Giving CAP10 ridiculous coverage moves is going to make it able to hit a lot of defensive counters for 4x damage, making CAP10 too hard to wall. But CAP10 still gets hidden power, which should be enough, there is no reason to give it Grass Knot on top of this, allowing it to hit tons of threats for SE damage. Sticking with HP limits its coverage a lot, so it can hit a lot less threats for heavy damage with the same set. This means that between its typing, abilities, and stats, CAP10 still has good versatility in the Team Builder (note: follows the concept - countering most offensive threats) while not countering too much at once (obviously counter-concept, especially since that includes defensive threats).

Just out of curiousity - and sorry for poll jumping - do we have to assume that CAP10 will get Ice Beam. I understand that most water-types get it, but removing it would mean that CAP 10 could be countered by more defensive pokemon while still being able to use HP Ice to take down pokemon like Salamence or Flygon. That way, Celebi becomes a much more reliable counter, as if CAP10 switches into Salamence, it's pretty likely that it's running HP Ice, so you wouldn't switch your Celebi in right away. But at the same time, it won't be running HP Bug, so if you can draw an Electric or Water attack for Celebi to switch into, you can easily counter CAP10 (taking an acceptable 36.6% - 43.6% from Timid Life Orb HP Ice).

Those are just my thoughts, and I'll admit they're somewhat scrambled. Opinions?

 

[Deck Knight]

The problem with the logic of Celebi at least, is that Ice Beam is going to be very common considering the stat spread won partly on the basis of countering Salamence with Ice Beam, and that was even before the abilities were in. "proxy countering" is a huge issue given the offensive threats we want CAP10 to switch into.

Swampert I can see requiring HP Grass, but Celebi is a substantial threat anyway on the basis that defensive Celebi carries Thunder Wave. If you run Bug Buzz to deal with it I don't see the problem, because Bug is generally an inferior attacking type to Ice. If you run Surf/Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz/Support you're susceptible to Salamence again, if you run Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Support you risk being paralyzed or KO'd by Celebi. There are 4th moves you could put in to address either (including the other move), but that has its own weaknesses.

Absenting these different coverage moves does not make countering walls more likely, it makes it less. If we limit CAP10's movepool so much that there becomes only one truly viable physical and special set, we remove the element of 4MSS that inherently comes with customization.

Lets say Bug Buzz is an option for this pokemon, and you need a set that can handle Latias, Celebi, Shaymin, Gyarados, Swampert, and Tyranitar. You have a lot of physical attackers so Blissey isn't an issue, but you'll be running Specs because you want to hit hard. So you select Surf, Thunderbolt, and HP Grass to deal decent damage with STABs and get rid of Swampert. Now you have to choose your last move. Bug Buzz will guarantee you a KO on Celebi while hitting Latias and Shaymin for similar damage to Ice Beam. You will also be able to keep going if Tyranitar switches in, even if less effectively than Surf. Ice Beam does better against Gyarados, but leaves you with only one move for TTar (HP is lulz).

In the absence of Bug Buzz, you can always rely on CAP10 to be running Water/Electric/Grass/Ice for the purposes of this set. Remember our concept is to explore defensive versatility. If there is only one set available because we've gimped customization options, we don't really have defensive versatility. In this scenario you are basically choosing between letting Gyarados come in on three moves or letting Tyranitar come in on three. Without that choice you are predictable, and all the Tyranitar user has to do is bait moves not named Surf.

I realize this is somewhat contrived, but I don't think Celebi is a good example for our purposes. I would rather use something like Bronzong, Swampert, or Jirachi who, in the absence of a non-hidden power SE move actually have a chance to come in on most sets. CAP10 still will not be able to counter everything at once, but it will expand it's defensive versatility, a part of the concept I think needs more exploring.

Addendum: The other problem is that not all Celebi are defensive Celebi, some are quite offensive and Bug Buzz is needed to take those down before CAP10 gets clocked. Pokemon that are that versatile present a challenge in that they can be both offensive and defensive threats, and it's hard enough to manage those without taking into account Magic Guard's penchant for allowing boosted no-downside damage.

 

[gamer_reloaded]

I'm a little concerned that we're spending too much time talking about movepools and not enough talking about specific counters. We're generally discussing things in the direction that I wanted us to move in, so I'm happy with that, but I kind of wanted to come to a consensus on some specific threats. As you read on, due note that any Pokemon/group of mons that's bolded is something that I am effectively supporting as a counter.

First of all, I have this idea in my head that most defensive Pokemon that are inherently used to sponge hits and tank out should not be in the direct jurisdiction of this Pokemon, because then you would be turning it into a wall breaker. Examples of threats that I would be very happy with NOT trying to "counter" are defensive versions of Swampert, pretty much any Pokemon known as a "bulky-<type>", special tanks like Blissey and Snorlax, and defensive RestTalkers. The idea behind this concept in the first place is that there is a variety of threats in the metagame that require an immediate response, and we're building a Pokemon that can be tossed into a final team slot and customized to deal with any one of these threats situationally. However, this does not equate to using CAP10 because that weakness is to something like stall, and it also doesn't equate to using CAP10 because we want to BREAK something. Swampert is a particularly interesting case, because if we decide to not give this thing a Grass move, we are opening up the door to making Swampert a soft counter, or even a hard counter if we don't give it a strong enough Water STAB, and I think this is a very healthy thing. Another interesting case is defensive Celebi. Again, this is not a THREAT. Defensive Celebi is used primarily to switch into threats and counter them, and to be able to beat it is to be breaking a wall. We have opportunities in the following polls to make sure that a defensive Celebi can feasibly switch into a good number of our sets and become a soft counter. Again, this is a GOOD thing.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that I think in order to be under the jurisdiction of the utility counter, you need to be a threat of some kind in that you're initiating some kind of strategy. Walls and tanks exist largely as fallback, and they're not really initiating anything at all. To try to beat these Pokemon is not a part of the job description we've been handed by the concept, and as such, I support making a good number of purely defensive Pokemon soft/hard counters to this. Examples are, of course, in my post.

By midnight, this thread will have been open for two days. It makes sense to close it then, but considering how the next few hours of discussion go in terms of activity, I might choose to keep it open for an additional couple of hours (let's say until like, 3 AM). So keep this in mind.

Beej, I personally don't think extending how long this thread is open will really prove that useful; as it stands, Slayer has already done a bang-up job of showing what counters CAP10 (Swampert, Celebi, Pain Split users, high-powered EQ users). At this point, everyone is discussing now how viable each of these possible counters might be if CAP10 gets x or y move, meaning we're all pretty much poll-jumping by now.

To get on topic: Personally though I am more concerned, like I hinted at earlier, about CAP10's stalling potential. Given just the moves that everything ends up getting, i.e, Rest/Sleep Talk/Toxic/STAB, and Magic Guard (which isn't really all that necessary either if its running Rest to begin with) along with that mighty HP stat might make it a 'counter' to EVERYTHING at once just by toxistalling it all to death. I know once this is all through that's the first set I'm gonna try out

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

Nothing, of course.

Then I see no need for it to have access for those moves though since I'm usually the one for allowing moves that aren't broken and/or somewhat superfluous so it's kinda ironic for me to be saying something like that.

I fail to see why we should invest in CAP10's movepool the ability to beat reliably so many things that should check it. I feel that things like Grass Knot and Bug Buzz should be absent from CAP10's movepool specifically so that Celebi and Swampert can be more reliable checks or even counters to CAP10. If you want to beat these specific checks, use the appropriate Hidden Power. Hydro Pump serves no purpose on CAP10 except to further punish its supposed checks in Swampert and ScarfTar.

We're not...hopefully we're not. They're already reliable checks/soft counter/whatever for CAP10 regardless if it had those moves or not (though Swampert is surprisingly 2HKO'd by an offensive CAP10 Surf/Ice Beam to HP Grass combo and Celebi is possibly 2HKO'd from Ice Beam with rocks up). If you want them to be more reliable checks/counter just don't give CAP10 any Ice, Grass, and/or Hidden Power. They'll be 100% counters for sure.


Deck Knight ~ Wait...are you for Buzz Bug/Grass Knot or against Deck Knight because this statement among your under statements are throwing me off

Absenting these different coverage moves does not make countering walls more likely, it makes it less. If we limit CAP10's movepool so much that there becomes only one truly viable physical and special set, we remove the element of 4MSS that inherently comes with customization.

 

[Deck Knight]

Wait...are you for Buzz Bug/Grass Knot or against Deck Knight because this statement among your under statements are throwing me off

Right now I'm thinking about the balancing act I'm going to have to perform in order to make this defensively versatile without delivering brokenness. Erego if I sound conflicted it's because I'm trying to take everything into account. I oppose Grass moves but support Bug Moves right now, because to me Bug's "wallbreaking" concern is limited to Pokemon named Celebi, which may or may not be defensive to begin with, and by nature of countering huge offensive threats (Salamence to name one) will be able to handle it anyway.

Most of what I've been thinking about to balance with has been based around Bronzong, Swampert, and Snorlax, and finding ways to deal with their myriad threats.

The other big problem is most of the "Bulky-" Pokemon are -Water(Thunderbolt) or -Ground(Surf). Which basically leaves Bulky Steels to contend with.

 

[Paradox]

Hide

The problem with the logic of Celebi at least, is that Ice Beam is going to be very common considering the stat spread won partly on the basis of countering Salamence with Ice Beam, and that was even before the abilities were in. "proxy countering" is a huge issue given the offensive threats we want CAP10 to switch into.

Swampert I can see requiring HP Grass, but Celebi is a substantial threat anyway on the basis that defensive Celebi carries Thunder Wave. If you run Bug Buzz to deal with it I don't see the problem, because Bug is generally an inferior attacking type to Ice. If you run Surf/Thunderbolt/Bug Buzz/Support you're susceptible to Salamence again, if you run Surf/Thunderbolt/Ice Beam/Support you risk being paralyzed or KO'd by Celebi. There are 4th moves you could put in to address either (including the other move), but that has its own weaknesses.

Absenting these different coverage moves does not make countering walls more likely, it makes it less. If we limit CAP10's movepool so much that there becomes only one truly viable physical and special set, we remove the element of 4MSS that inherently comes with customization.

Lets say Bug Buzz is an option for this pokemon, and you need a set that can handle Latias, Celebi, Shaymin, Gyarados, Swampert, and Tyranitar. You have a lot of physical attackers so Blissey isn't an issue, but you'll be running Specs because you want to hit hard. So you select Surf, Thunderbolt, and HP Grass to deal decent damage with STABs and get rid of Swampert. Now you have to choose your last move. Bug Buzz will guarantee you a KO on Celebi while hitting Latias and Shaymin for similar damage to Ice Beam. You will also be able to keep going if Tyranitar switches in, even if less effectively than Surf. Ice Beam does better against Gyarados, but leaves you with only one move for TTar (HP is lulz).

In the absence of Bug Buzz, you can always rely on CAP10 to be running Water/Electric/Grass/Ice for the purposes of this set. Remember our concept is to explore defensive versatility. If there is only one set available because we've gimped customization options, we don't really have defensive versatility. In this scenario you are basically choosing between letting Gyarados come in on three moves or letting Tyranitar come in on three. Without that choice you are predictable, and all the Tyranitar user has to do is bait moves not named Surf.

I realize this is somewhat contrived, but I don't think Celebi is a good example for our purposes. I would rather use something like Bronzong, Swampert, or Jirachi who, in the absence of a non-hidden power SE move actually have a chance to come in on most sets. CAP10 still will not be able to counter everything at once, but it will expand it's defensive versatility, a part of the concept I think needs more exploring.

Addendum: The other problem is that not all Celebi are defensive Celebi, some are quite offensive and Bug Buzz is needed to take those down before CAP10 gets clocked. Pokemon that are that versatile present a challenge in that they can be both offensive and defensive threats, and it's hard enough to manage those without taking into account Magic Guard's penchant for allowing boosted no-downside damage.

You make a good point, but I think that we, and pretty much everyone else, has differing opinions on what exactly this CaP should be doing. I think this is the primary concern right now, and it is something that hasn't been addressed properly yet. The opinions differ mainly in how much CAP10 should counter at once, and what types of pokemon CAP10 should counter.

In terms of how much, there is:

1. A broader counter-pokemon, capable of being designed to counter 3-4 different pokemon at once. This pokemon would undoubtably be more useful, but it may be somewhat counter-concept (in my opinion, though I'm not decided). For example, you have a CaP set that is designed to beat "Latias, Celebi, Shaymin, Gyarados, Swampert, and Tyranitar". That's 5 top tier threats that are pretty reliably countered, and undoubtably a lot more pokemon would be countered by this same set. These people tend to want more coverage moves, but likely separated as Egg Moves or something.

2. A specific counter-pokemon, only capable of countering a few specific threats, and being countered by most other pokemon. This is more what I was leaning towards with my previous "No Ice Beam, only HP" suggestion, though to be honest I'm not sure what I'm leaning towards right now. This pokemon would probably not be quite as useful, but would be a bit closer to the concept, and would be less likely to take a wall-breaking role.

And in terms of what, there are people who think this should be able to beat only offensive pokemon, and others who think it should also be able to handle most defensive pokemon as well.

I don't think that it makes sense to agree on anything else until we can define what exactly this pokemon should be able to do.

 

[Str0ngbad]

I am in favor of Celebi being a reliable check/soft counter to CAP10. First off, because it is the only really 'bulky' pokemon who can counter with powerful STAB. Additionally, while I agree with Deck Knight that Celebi can easily go offensive, it is much more common as a bulky supporter and if you really are concerned about an offensive Celebi then there are already a myriad of pokemon who can handle that threat (I personally would at least start with something not weak to grass). So all that to say I don't think CAP10 should match up well against Celebi.

 

[beej]

Closing this, because it's been up for a while and I think it would be best to move onto the attacking moves discussion, considering how much moves have been discussed in here already.

A lot of threads going up in a bit.