CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 11a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[Upduck]

Pursuit - Allow
Assuming that the opponent is not using Zapdos, when Voodoom is switched in, it is likely that most people would try to switch in to a different pokemon to try to take it out. Pursuit with STAB would catch runners, leaving them damaged for Togekiss to be able to beat if Voodoom should be taken out. It's a good synergy move, which was the point of CaP 11.

 

[Ice-eyes]

Uninvested Sucker Punch isn't doing much to anything that isn't weak to it - its only main target is Starmie. Starmie seriously threatens the DoomKiss core and I don't see the problem with allowing Voodoom to take out this dangerous threat. It doesn't break the concept and it doesn't break Voodoom.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

I was for allowing Electric moves, but I forgot about the argument of letting bulky Waters counter it. In which case, I agree that Electric & Grass moves should be disallowed.

It's clear that Ice moves should be allowed; Rock moves don't seem to do enough to Zapdos, which we've all agreed SHOULD NOT threaten the core.

Sucker Punch: Allow
Gives this Pokemon a surefire way of countering Gengar without risking a speed tie, considering Gengar can heavily damage Voodoom with thunderbolt

It has Volt Absorb; Thunderbolt is useless against him.

 

[Puffins R Cool]

Ancientpower: Allowed.
People are suggesting Paleo Wave. Guys, it's Stratagem's unique move. It's like giving Cyclohm Volt Tackle, it's wrong.
Now compare Ancientpower. It's only 60 Base Power, but it can boost all your stats. And, it's Rock, so it's greal against Zapdos.

Ice Beam: Allowed.
So it isn't stuck with Ice Punch to fight Zapdos.

Psychic: Allowed.
For the ever-present Breloom, and for coverage.

 

[HouseFantastic]

I do not support Ice Beam for this creature. We're not making a one-man party, and this would give it too much coverage, in my opinion. What does it cover that Fighting/Dark can't besides Grass-types, and Celebi and Breloom are hit SE with Dark and Psychic, respectively.

As stated previously, Zapdos is covered much more easily with ice beam, who has been a major part of this discussion from the typing polls onward. We don't want Zapdos to wall the duo, but we want bulky waters to give it a bit of trouble. Ice beam allows for this. It's also not going to make Voodoom a one-man party, I don't know where that's coming from.

All the relevant calculations regarding ice beam and zapdos have been made already in the thread, as far as I can tell. Thus, there is little else I can say but to allow Ice Beam. I'd like to refer to Deck Knight and capefeather's posts for references as to why. I will also call for allowing thunderpunch and ice punch, but disallow fire punch, based on Jibaku's very convincing post.

 

[kingdra22]

I am supporting Paleo Wave to be allowed.

Reasons:

• Helps in dealing with Physically Defensive Zapdos more effectively than Stone Edge. Specially defensive variants are taken care of Ice Punch.
• Wouldn't give Voodoom insane coverage.

Also, I am supporting Ice Punch to be allowed.

Reasons:

• Helps in dealing with Specially defensive variants of Zapdos, as stated above.

• Lacking Hidden Power Rock allows Pokémon such as Dragonite, Zapdos, and Gyarados have an easier time facing against Togekiss. Gyarados has the benefit of Intimidate, while Zapdos and Dragonite have Roost to recover the lost damage.

As you can see, Ice Punch is beneficial for Dragonite.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

I don't see why Paleo Wave is even being considered for Voodoom. In this CAP, Paleo Wave shouldn't even exist. In any case, it's Strategem's signature move. Did we put Spacial Rend on Cyclohm? No, Dragon Pulse was good enough. It's not like Voodoom can't handle Zapdos at all with the resources it's already given and that Paleo Wave is a necessity to defeat it. Stone Edge does plenty, and the Attack drop from P-Wave is useless anyway.

And if you're that concerned about Physically Defensive Zapdos, run Power Gem.

 

[capefeather]

I haven't spoken up on Paleo Wave because I didn't want to give a purely philosophical argument against it, but I thought that it was common sense that one would have to argue that Voodoom NEEDS to have this move to justify having its status as Stratagem's signature removed. I guess not.

Wouldn't give Voodoom insane coverage.

I mean, seriously? What kind of "insane coverage" are we talking about when adding Ice to the already near-perfect Fighting / Dark combo? Breloom? Celebi? Voodoom already has weapons against these (it's OWN STAB, HP Flying and the currently allowed Psychic).

As it stands, there has been no argument that Voodoom NEEDS Paleo Wave specifically.

 

[HeavyOctillery]

Voodoom simply doesn't NEED Paleo Wave when it will have Ice Beam. It's redundant. So I vote to disallow Paleo Wave due to it being a waste of a VGM slot.

 

[bubbly]

Ice Beam is necessary, pure and simple. Dragonite is an underappreciated counter to Togekiss, with Inner Focus and enough power and durability to scare it off. Ice Punch isn't powerful enough to hurt physically defensive Zapdos and most other switch ins.

Disallow Paleo Wave. Quite apart from being Strata's signature, it's just not necessary at all. Who does it hit that its supposed to harder than IceBeam or one of its STAB's?

 

[familyguyman]

Ice Beam is necessary, pure and simple. Dragonite is an underappreciated counter to Togekiss, with Inner Focus and enough power and durability to scare it off. Ice Punch isn't powerful enough to hurt physically defensive Zapdos and most other switch ins.

Disallow Paleo Wave. Quite apart from being Strata's signature, it's just not necessary at all. Who does it hit that its supposed to harder than IceBeam or one of its STAB's?

Paleo Wave would be good for Gyarados...and Moltres?

 

[tennisace]

This thread is going nowhere. Fuzznip has real life issues to take care of, and has appointed Deck Knight TL for the remainder of the project. He's going to get the next thread up shortly.