CAP 11 CAP 11 - Part 11a - Attacking Moves Discussion

[reachzero]

First of all, let me start with the moves that I think are most important.

Disallow Thunderbolt, Thunder, Discharge and Thunderpunch. Not being able to beat bulky Waters is a major priority. Thundershock is irrelevant competitively, since it's outclassed by HP Electric, except in very strange situations like Brightpowder Gyarados or whatever.

Disallow Leaf Storm, Grass Knot, Energy Ball, and Leaf Blade for the same reason. Voodoom shouldn't have any more weapons against Water-types. Needle Arm is irrelevant, since even a supereffective Needle Arm does about the same as a neutral Close Combat.

Allow Psychic, even though I'm amazed this has not been argued about yet. Heracross will be a bit of an issue for Voodoom, and Psychic would be its best option barring HP Flying (which costs a speed point). For what it's worth, Psychic also makes a big difference to Voodoom in full CAP, allowing it to actually hurt Arghonaut and Revenankh, though of course that is not very important.

Allow Ice Beam, because it will only make any kind of difference in a few cases: it does hit Shaymin and Breloom harder than the other options, but neither Pokemon really wants to come in on Voodoom anyway; it makes a big difference in terms of Zapdos and Dragonite, two of the major Pokemon we really want Voodoom to be able to deal with. Remember, any turn that Voodoom uses Ice Beam is a turn for a bulky Water to come in more or less for free. Ice Punch is essentially a worse Ice Beam on Voodoom, so I see it as irrelevant.

Disallow Sucker Punch, there is no reason why Voodoom should get a free pass against Starmie. LO Naive 4 EVs Sucker Punch does 85.8% - 101.9% to standard Life Orb Starmie. It also does a significant 39.2% - 46.2% to Scarf Flygon, meaning that Flygon can't force Voodom out even if it bites the bullet and takes an Aura Sphere or Dark Pulse to switch in. What is the point of giving Voodom "only" base 110 speed if practically anything faster is afraid of STAB priority?

 

[hydrolphin]

I really see no reason why Ice Beam shouldn't be allowed. It helps Togekiss immensely by beating Zapdos, but it isn't overly useful when paired with Gyarados, so its not bad in that respect. The only important Gyarados counter that is weak to Ice Beam is Celebi, who is hit harder by Dark Pulse anyway. HP Ice is pathetic against a Specially Defensive Zapdos dealing only 29.8% - 35.5% with a max SpA, Modest Voodoom. Thats just sad. Stone Edge is never a reliable answer to anything, let alone something with Pressure and Roost. You'd have to be running max attack for SE to be worthwhile which would severely hurt Voodoom's versatility. So as I said before Ice Beam for Allowed.

 

[Naxte]

Since it seems that I most likely won't be able to voice support for Paleo Wave like I was planning, then I also support Ice Beam for Allowed. Doing some damage calcs, A Timid LO 252 SpA Voodoom HP Rock/Power Gem does 49.1% - 58% to the standard Physically Defensive Zapdos. However, against Specially Defensive Zapdos, which is sure to become more common once Voodoom goes up, the same attack does 35.5% - 41.8%, which isn't quite a guaranteed 2HKO, even with Stealth Rock up (especially when factoring in Leftovers recovery for Zapdos). Conversely, even with no Atk investment and a Calm nature, the same Zapdos can do 53% - 63.6% to Voodoom with Drill Peck, a guaranteed 2HKO. As Zapdos is one of the most important Pokemon for Voodoom to be able to beat, this isn't good.

As for Stone Edge, it may be able to do more, but that accuracy makes it's an incredibly risky option, especially since it only has 8 PP and Zapdos does have Pressure+Roost to stall it out should it miss. It's really an incredibly gimicky/risky option for beating Zapdos, and should not be something that CAP11 is forced to rely on to try and beat it.

Ice Beam however does secure the 2HKO on even Specially Defensive Zapdos and beyond Zapdos, the other Pokemon it beat aren't too relevant, so I really feel that it should be Allowed.

As for Aura Sphere, since it got brought up, I feel that it should remain Allowed. I mean, it may possibly be broken, but there's no way to know that for sure until we try it out. But really, the reason why I really want it to be allowed is that the only other options Voodoom has for a Special Fighting STAB are HP Fighting and Focus Blast. Focus Blast is completely unreliable with its 70 Accuracy, which means that by the second use it's already slightly more likely to miss than it is to hit again, which is terrible for a STAB move. As for Hidden Power... well, it's Hidden Power. Being forced to use it to get STAB on the Fighting side is terrible, especially if Ice Beam/Power Gem aren't allowed and Voodoom is thus already bieng forced to use its Hidden Power to take care of Zapdos.

Really, the only way I'd be fine with Aura Sphere being disallowed is if we are actually able to come to some sort of compromise, and make an 80 BP special Fighting attack for Voodoom, or something of the sort. Barring that though, the other options for Voodoom to get a decent STAB that actually takes advantage of its stats are so limited, that I'd really rather Aura Sphere be Allowed. Of course, I do realize that this isn't exactly the best reasoning for Allowing a move, but nonetheless is something that really bothers me even if it shouldn't, which is why I'd like for it to be Allowed, though I do understand why if it isn't (though in that case, I really would prefer some sort of slightly weaker equivalent be created to make up for the fact, but that would require creating a custom move, which should be avoided if at all possible naturally, and thus I'd prefer Aura Sphere if possible).

 

[tennisace]

I put this into the OP but I feel like it should be emphasized anyway:

If you believe this Pokemon should have a new signature move, PM Fuzznip with the idea first. However, do realize that there is almost zero chance of him accepting it.

 

[Staraptor Call]

Allow Ice Beam. We want Voodoom to be countered by bulky Waters, and bulky Waters love to switch into Ice Beam. Ice Beam would also help with Flygon, a common Togekiss switch-in. And although Ice Beam keeps Grass types from switching in and using moves Togekiss resists, few Grass types will be switching into Voodoom anyway. I could only really see Shaymin doing so, or Mach Punch Breloom if Voodoom were low enough on HP. Ice Beam also helps Voodoom take care of Zapdos.

Allow Flamethrower. Fire moves are similar to Ice moves on Voodoom: they would help with specific checks for the combination (in this case, Scizor and Heracross) but encourage Bulky Waters to switch in. Giving Voodoom Flamethrower would also make Togekiss not have to use Flamethrower itself, thus freeing up one of Togekiss's moveslots.

Disallow Surf. Surf would make Voodoom more of a threat to Ground and Fire types, and those are two types of moves we want to attract so Togekiss can switch into them.

Allow Rock Blast. Rock Blast would allow Voodoom to hit SubRoost Zapdos through its Substitutes. It would also make Ninjask less viable (is that even possible?) so that Togekiss can be used more as a Baton Passer in its stead. Making Substitute less useful in general helps Togekiss spread status. On that note, Disallow Stone Edge. Stone Edge makes Substitute more useful for PP-stalling purposes and does little to beat Zapdos due to Pressure. Besides, we would want to force battlers to use Rock Blast in order to make Substitute less viable.

 

[Chameleon]

First of all, I definetely think Ice Beam should be allowed. The ability to 2HKO Zapdos without being PP stalled by misses is huge, and if Zapdos starts carrying Drill Peck/HP Flying I would at least like to able to cripple it with an attack before dying. Grass types are rather irrelevant here, standard Breloom is always OHKOed by LO Aura Sphere with Stealth Rock up, Celebi is mauled by Dark Pulse already, and Togekiss can handle Shaymin and Roserade.

Close Combat/Superpower should be allowed simply because it provides a reliable way to defeat Blissey; the latter works just as well one-on-one with the pink blob but fails otherwise, so it's a matter of how powerful you want Voodoom to be. Stone Edge and Earthquake are two unfortunate but not gamebreaking byproducts of CC because their coverage is rather redundant and are not much more powerful than it even when super effective.

The elemental punches should be disallowed because they add unneccessary type coverage, and Power Gem should be disallowed because if someone fancies a Rock attack, it's bad if we let them get HP Grass for free too. Not that these moves will be used much anyway.

Sucker Punch should be disallowed because it helps us with not only Starmie, but a ton of faster Pokemon we don't need to beat, ranging from Azelf to random Choice Scarfers. The move is too broad to be chosen for one threat who is not even a surefire counter. Speed in general is not an issue, 110 is great, and Togekiss often runs Thunder Wave.

Finally, I would like tentatively disallow Crunch. It may seem a little radical, but Voodoom could become a nasty Bulk Up abuser, with its high speed allowing it to initially tank hits with a fast stat boost and the boost making up for CC's defense drops later. Near perfect STABs help, and even Skarmory can be 2HKOed after one boost. It would be even worse if EQ/Stone Edge/Fire Punch/Sucker Punch are added too. And who would rise in usage to counter this set? Choice Scarf Fighting types and Zapdos, which Togekiss dislikes. Bulk Up sets don't benefit Togekiss synergy much either. I'll have to do more calcs, though.

 

[RamenNoodles]

I personally believe that Ice Beam will be an important part of Voodoom doing its job in checking Zapdos, and that Shadow Sneak or another Priority Move should definitively be allowed to threaten weakened Rotom-A or other common checks to Togekiss.

P.S. I know it's early (and the wrong step), but who else is with me on Pain Split? As a voodoo doll it would be pretty awesome.

 

[The Cicada]

I think that Close Combat should be allowed.Close combat willl allow t to deal with Blissey alot better,and Close Combat will make it be able to run better physically based sets.

 

[Ray Jay]

Elemental Punches I believe should be allowed. This is because of the lower Attack stat, even ThunderPunch does not have the potential to deal with Bulky Waters. For example, even when equipped with a Choice Band and an Attack boosting nature AND max investment, ThunderPunch will only sometimes 2HKO Vaporeon and 3HKO Vaporeon. This is an impractical example, so on a mixed set with a Speed boosting nature and Life Orb, it takes a minimumof 220 Attack Evs to guarantee the 3HKO on Vaporeon and 4HKO on Suicune (which makes it set up fodder). This means ThunderPunch may not be stopping bulky waters any time soon, and as the others seem to be just some more fun coverage to use, I think it should be definitely Allowed.

Power Gem seems a little overpowered to me, and for this reason I choose Disallowed. In essence, all we are doing is allowing Voodoom to deal with Zapdos while still having a choice for Hidden Power. If you want to take out Zappy, put on Hidden Power Rock. Otherwise, Voodoom with a Special Attack boosting nature is capable of taking on things such as Zapdos and Swampert at the same time, which is a little overpowered I think.

Sucker Punch should be allowed, as it provides for a powerful physical Dark option that deals with Gengar and Starmie. Otherwise, the Speed of these two alone will be used against the core, so it is only natural that the core have some way of answering this.

Close Combat should be allowed, although to a certain extent this is because I am not aware of anything making it overpowered. It seems to serve as a viable option on mixed sets for Voodoom, and will certainly have use without being too overpowered.

 

[capefeather]

I'd like to say something before I begin. A lot of you are clearly not thinking your posts through. Just because the mods spared your posts, that doesn't mean that there aren't visible mistakes in the reasoning. Looking at the last few posts (not all of them, some) as examples, I'd like to dispense some advice.

1. Consider Type-Move and Move-Move relationships. I find it alarming that people are so carelessly calling to disallow Earthquake and Stone Edge without even any really good reason. These two moves are required alongside Close Combat, and you should either try to get Close Combat disallowed or think of a VERY good reason (think breaking the concept, not just "not helping" the concept) to disallow either move while keeping CC.

2. Don't call for allow/disallow on the assumption that the move will be viable on a common set. So what if Surf KOes Ground and Fire types? If you want those to live, you won't run Surf. <.<

3. Compare base powers. Running off about super-effective Hidden Power being broken is stupid because those are only slightly stronger than the neutral STABs.

Now for the fun part.

Aura Sphere: ALLOW

I find it really odd that this was brought up at all. The voice calling to disallow this move seems to be working under the assumption that Voodoom will run Choice Specs. OK, let Voodoom run Choice Specs and tip the scales a bit against a bulky Water switch-in. It's now going to be vulnerable to revenge kills and prediction-walling, just like any other Choiced user. I think it's a fair trade. Jolteon runs off the same idea and it's hardly zomg broken. Forcing Focus Blast on a Fighting-type Pokémon is just going to make Voodoom more luck-reliant.

Competitive Grass moves: DISALLOW

Agreeing with others here that Voodoom's power against bulky Waters shouldn't be needlessly buffed. Of course, Tentacruel is also weak to a bunch of other stuff, but meh.

Close Combat / Superpower: ALLOW

I'm not exactly sure why this is even controversial. Blissey and Snorlax are very dangerous against Togekiss, so the option to pressure them as much as possible should definitely be on the table. Remember that Flamethrower / Toxic variants of Blissey exist!

Ice Beam: ALLOW

Against my flavour-based worries about allowing a non-STAB move but not allowing its Electric-type equivalent, I believe that this is needed so that Voodoom fares better against Zapdos, Heracross and Dragonite. All three are very important for Voodoom. As it is, Voodoom has to choose two of Close Combat / Taunt / Hidden Power Flying / Hidden Power Ice. Of these, HP Flying is the only way to beat Heracross, but by doing so defensive Dragonite (e.g. the cleric dancer) turns Voodoom into setup bait, and SpD Zapdos beats Voodoom as well. Thus, HP Flying will be a very risky option. Ice Beam will allow Voodoom to dent Heracross more while also tipping the scales against Zapdos and OHKOing defensive Dragonite, thereby relieving some of the 4MSS pressure placed on Voodoom.

Sucker Punch: DISALLOW

Shadow Sneak: ALLOW

I thought about this (the latter more than the former), and neither of these help the concept at all, and only serve as a "screw you" to revenge killers. The only purpose Sucker Punch has in particular (assuming Crunch gets in... seriously why would you not want Crunch in) is to beat Starmie and pound on Scarfers. There is no point to achieving either of these.

EDIT: On the other hand, Shadow Sneak is admittedly pathetically weak, so I'm moving it back to allow.

Fire Punch: DISALLOW

Ice Punch / ThunderPunch: ALLOW

I've probably thought about this the most. The conclusion that I've drawn is that there's no point to these moves in terms of helping the concept, and they serve only to buff physical sets needlessly. Taunt shuts down a vast amount of possible targets for the punches. There's no sense in allowing Voodoom to KO support-neutered defensive Pokémon quickly when they don't even pose any threat to Togekiss. The only threat that I can see being a big problem to, say, Taunt Bulk Up is Calm Mind Flash Cannon Jirachi. Voodoom can easily run Earthquake (sacrificing a move, but that's a fair trade) to deal with that threat. Flash Cannon Jirachi is pretty out of vogue, anyway, from what I recall.

EDIT: That said, I suppose we were rather hasty on treating the punches as a unit. This is why I'm changing my stance from disallowing all of them to disallowing just Fire Punch.

I don't have much of an opinion on the other controversial moves.

 

[petrie911]

Actually, that brings up a good question. If a move is disallowed (eg, Stone Edge), and another move has that move in its move-move requirements (eg, Close Combat), does that make the latter move also disallowed? In our example, does Stone Edge being disallowed preclude us from having Close Combat?

 

[KidX]

Contrary to what reachzero said, I think Psychic should disallowed because Togekiss can already come in on a CC or megahorn and OHKO with Air slash

Power Gem is a great move for Voodoom, because it allows voodoom to hit Zapdos for SE damage, besides Zapdos destroys Togekiss with STAB thunderbolt.

Needle Arm, this move IMO should be allowed because needle arm has the 30% flinch rate, which can come in handy considering Voodoom base 110 spe.

 

[Smith]

Ice Beam should be allowed, in my opinion. Cap11 should be able to deal with Flygon or Gliscor, who can be nuisances to Togekiss by being immune to thunder wave and owning Kiss with stone edge. Let's not also forget Zapdos.

Sucker Punch shouldn't be allowed. His speed is high enough, and he doesn't really need a move just solely for screwing Starmie, whom Togekiss has no major problems with.

 

[Jebus McAzn]

Sucker Punch: Disallow.. Like reachzero said, we shouldn't get that kind of free pass against Starmie.

Close Combat:Allow. Either this or Superpower. Coming off of Voodoom's mediocre 85 Atk, it won't be useful against anything not named Blissey.

Stone Edge: Allow. Stone Edge is great for answering Zapdos, which we decided shouldn't counter our duo.

Power Gem: Allow. While Stone Edge outdamages Power Gem most of the time, Power Gem could potentially be extremely useful on a Choice Specs set, or in conjunction with Nasty Plot passing Blissey.

Earthquake: Disallow. Fighting/Dark is good enough coverage, and we don't want to completely destroy Infernape. From the counters discussion, we should remember that Infernape is a good counter to CAP 11 if it can switch in safely, a much harder job when you consider that Earthquake is an easy OHKO.

 

[Leman]

I don't see the point in disallowing the elemental punches. They are 75 BP nonstabbed moves running off of 85 base attack. Close Combat hits all of these targets harder than any of the punches, bar Gyarados, Scizor, Gliscor and Dragonite, and fails to OHKO any of them with max attack and an Adamant nature. To me they honestly just seem like moves that can be shoved in at the end of the movepool process to fill up space if the creator feels like it.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

Actually, that brings up a good question. If a move is disallowed (eg, Stone Edge), and another move has that move in its move-move requirements (eg, Close Combat), does that make the latter move also disallowed? In our example, does Stone Edge being disallowed preclude us from having Close Combat?

No. If Stone Edge were disallowed and Close Combat allowed, then Close Combat would be enabled on movepools, but Stone Edge would not. The requirements only matter when the final movepool submission stage rolls around. Only the allowed required moves need be present in movepools.

 

[DarkSlay]

Okay, here's my voice on the suggested moves so far (and I'll add a little more for debate):

Aura Sphere - Allow - A Base 90 STAB Fighting move off of 105 Special Attack may sound powerful, but in reality (assuming no SpA boosts)
Aura Sphere is actually fairly underwhelming against Bulky Waters. For instance, even with SR damage and a Life Orb, it cannot 2HKO bulky versions of Suicune (and barely can KO Offensive versions), and after one Calm Mind, it cannot 3HKO. Swampert is 3HKO'd. Vaporeon is 3HKO'd. In fact, the only OU Water-type that is 2HKO'd by Aura Sphere is Kingdra, and he can still beat CAP11. Remember, while taking SR into account, you must take Leftovers into account too. Therefore, it's not beating any counter we don't want it beating. There's little reason for this to be disallowed.

Sucker Punch - Disallow - The 110 Speed stat was specifically made to be slower than Starmie. Sucker Punch alleviates Starmie from existence against CAP11. Therefore, after simple algebra, Sucker Punch is a no-no. Keep in mind also that this is a near fail-proof way of taking out Gengar, which this spread specificially is made to speed tie with.

Close Combat - Allow - Not hitting anything harder than Aura Sphere or Focus Blast except Blissey and Snorlax, and I really don't mind people deciding whether to "waste" one of their four moves on Close Combat.

Stone Edge - Allow - While Stone Edge + Fighting STAB gives pseudo-EdgeQuake coverage, Stone Edge off of a Base 85 Attack stat isn't terribly threatening. It doesn't OHKO Zapdos at max investment after SR. It barely 2HKO's at no investment, but running Stone Edge at no investment seems silly. Close Combat + Stone Edge can't 2HKO Bulky Gyarados after Intimidate. It's only helping CAP11 beat what it's supposed to beat, and even then it's not too powerful.

Power Gem - Allow - To me, this is actually more useful than Stone Edge, as both are doing similar damage while this doesn't force CAP11 to split its attacking stats (unless this is desired, which I see little reason to force it to do so). It's as powerful as HP Rock, and is basically a niche move filler.

Earthquake - On the Fence - Part of me understands that this will be off its less than impressive Attack stat, which means it will have the same usage as, say, HP Ground (which does equal damage to most SE targets). However, another part of me understands that this will give CAP11 an option on Jolteon, Electivire, Metagross, and Jirachi, as well as a "better" option on Heatran and Magnezone (although not really a good reason). Currently, unless running HP Ground, CAP11 doesn't have this coverage, and some of these Pokes can hit CAP11 pretty hard as counters. For reference, at max investment, EQ can 2HKO Offensive Jirachi, can 2HKO Wish Support Jirachi after SR + one layer of Spikes, and can 2HKO 252 / 0 Metagross. The question should be should these threats be defeated by CAP11? EQ could give it this window.

All Fire Moves - Disallow - It's pretty much a worse "EQ coverage" problem, hitting most Steels for Super Effective damage. Way too useful.

All Ice Moves (re: Ice Beam) - Allow - Allows CAP11 to beat Togekiss' counters like Zapdos and Dragonite. Bulky Waters resist it, as does CAP11's counters like Infernape and Starmie. The only "extra" usefulness I see here is that it can OHKO Flygon (which can't really switch into CAP11 anyway, and out-speeds CAP11 assuming it holds a Scarf) and hits Togekiss harder than a Special Rock move (it still can't OHKO after SR, assuming 252/0 Neutral nature). It also hits Shaymin and Breloom harder, but neither like CAP11 anyway, and Shaymin can survive and OHKO with a LO Seed Flare after SR damage. Meanwhile, it has less than a 15% chance to OHKO Physical Defensive Zapdos and 0/0 Togekiss if they switch into it AND SR. 0% chance if they switch into SR and get Lefties. I'm not seeing how this is overpowered and/or gives it unwanted type coverage, unless I'm missing something blatantly obvious. However, I'm advocating Ice Beam and Ice Punch (which is redundant with Ice Beam, really), not Blizzard and Ice Shard. Note that most of these Pokemon are hit just as hard (bar Dragonite and the Grass types) by Stone Edge or a Special Rock move (since IBeam and Power Gem both equal 2HKO's after SR).

​

All Electric Moves - Disallow - Coverage against most Bulky Waters bar Swampert and Kingdra = a big no-no.

All Grass Moves - Disallow - " " bar Empoleon, Gyarados, and Kingdra = a big no-no.

Shadow Ball - Allow - I wouldn't give up STAB Dark Pulse for Shadow Ball personally, since coverage resisted only by Heracross and Toxicroak is pretty much as close as you can get to Fighting / Ghost (bar Dragon / Ground). Therefore, it's inferior redundancy, and should be allowed.

Superpower - Allow - Essentially a mirror of Close Combat, but with a power loss and a retention of Special Defense (I'd argue that it's worse than CC personally).

Paleo Wave - On the Fence - I don't think that the move is too powerful. What I'm skeptical about, however, is the 50% chance of an Attack drop. Say Scarf Infernape or even Mach Punch Infernape switches in on the Attack drop. Scarf CC doesn't OHKO, which it normally does. Mach Punch does a silly 36.1% - 43% to CAP11. What else can CAP11 be able to contend with if it gets a -1 Atk drop? I don't think this issue is too huge, but I want to make sure that this can't be terribly taken advantage of.

Psychic - Allow - Extremely situational, as it's only really useful against Heracross (does not OHKO) and Machamp (does not OHKO). Meanwhile, aside from that, it's next to useless when paired with its STAB. I find this similar as to why Krilowatt received Psychic initially.

Other Moves that Haven't Been Talked About Yet:

Aerial Ace - In order to come even close to OHKO'ing Breloom and Heracross, it needs max Attack investment and a Life Orb. Aside from this coverage, the move is next to useless, as a STAB Crunch is equal to a 2x SE Aerial Ace hit, and STAB CC is more powerful. The only unwanted effect is that it can potentially beat one potentially wanted counter for CAP11. Unlike Air Slash (which would be overpowered by comparison), this move is the epitome of situational.

Fake Out - This is an interesting move, as we can argue that CAP11 can make an effective anti-lead with Fake Out. One can also argue that CAP11 can help Togekiss by simply preventing Stealth Rock from being placed or beating a potentially dangerous lead. Aside from this, it's a fairly useless move outside of the lead position. I wouldn't mind discussion on this.

 

[Lord Jesseus]

Ok, I haven't been around for all of the discussions so could someone please tell me why Ice and Fire moves are disallowed? I'm not quite understanding the reasoning for it and I'd like some clarity on the matter. I especially don't get Ice moves; as people have said above IceBeam would help in taking on Zapdos who is NOT supposed to be a counter iirc.
Electric moves i understand though, because it's not suppsed to be able to counter bulky waters. On that note would grass moves also be ideal to disallow, since they can also be utilised against water types?

 

[Deck Knight]

My thoughts on a few moves:

Sucker Punch: Allow

There is a fairly good chance Gengar will be running HP Fire anyway, so you will outspeed it to nab a KO with Dark Pulse. Gengar is also a potential threat to Togekiss, and the Sub 3 Attacks set will cause the duo enough trouble as it is. Insofar as Starmie is concerned, Starmie isn't a true bulky water. It's used much more for either direct attacking or support, and the support set usually runs Reflect, which makes Sucker Punch untenable. Starmie is already weak to dark and can't switch in. If we're coddling Starmie, we should deny Pursuit as well.

Which brings me to Pursuit itself: Allow

In order to have any synergy, Voodoom needs to be able to trap Togekiss' counters in some form. STAB Pursuit helps it get rid of more offensive Rotom variants and put Gengar in jeapordy. Pursuit is extremely helpful in making the duo cohesive, allowing Togekiss to wear enemies down and Voodoom to finish them.

Mach Punch: Allow

Weavile is a significant threat to both Voodoom and Togekiss given its fairly powerful Brick Break and Ice Punch. Mach Punch helps take care of Weavile and also deals with Scarftar to an extent.

Fake Out: Allow Fake Out allows Voodoom to fill out a broader niche, and especially it can break the Sashes of many Stealth Rock leads and threaten a followup KO. Togekiss benefits greatly if Voodoom makes setting up rocks more difficult early game.

Earthquake: Allow

Earthquake is going to have a fairly dificult time putting a dent in anything important that isn't already covered by Aura Sphere or Close Combat. The vast majority of its uses are niche, and indeed SE Earthquake is only 11% more powerful than STAB Close Combat.

Ice Moves in general: Allow

This is an offensive core, and the only things we want to give it a lot of difficulty are Bulky Waters. We want a way to address Zapdos easily, and Ice Beam does the trick while also largely removing Dragonite as a check. Ice is a strong offensive type and would provide the coverage the Voodoom/Togekiss combination needs to be a threatening offensive core. Flying/Dark/Fighting isn't going to cut it as a truly threatening core. Even with the addition of Ice bulky waters and Metagross/Jirachi/Bronzong still do quite well against it, to say nothing of Scizor. Given that Zapdos' only weaknesses are Ice and Rock, physical rock moves are inaccurate and special rock moves (read: Power Gem) are laughably weak, Ice moves are the way to go. They keep in place the checks we want while adding a potent coverage option..

 

[X-Act]

Paleo Wave should be disallowed. Call this flavour as much as you want, but I don't think an exclusive CAP move should be given to another CAP when Voodoom doesn't even get STAB on it. And if Ice Beam ends up being allowed, I'm sure nobody would care about Paleo Wave anymore.

Speaking of Ice Beam, I'd rather put this into Allowed instead. It counters Zapdos pretty well, even specially-defensive ones, and does irrelevant damage to bulky waters, even to Swampert. So yeah, I support the other person's arguments of putting Ice Beam to Allowed, and then we can pretty much forget about Paleo Wave.

 

[Naxte]

Paleo Wave should be disallowed. Call this flavour as much as you want, but I don't think an exclusive CAP move should be given to another CAP when Voodoom doesn't even get STAB on it. And if Ice Beam ends up being allowed, I'm sure nobody would care about Paleo Wave anymore.

Speaking of Ice Beam, I'd rather put this into Allowed instead. It counters Zapdos pretty well, even specially-defensive ones, and does irrelevant damage to bulky waters, even to Swampert. So yeah, I support the other person's arguments of putting Ice Beam to Allowed, and then we can pretty much forget about Paleo Wave.

I'm not nearly as concerned about Paleo Wave being Allowed or not now, but it is an interesting option compared to Ice Beam. It still 2HKO's Zapdos, but isn't hurting Pokemon like Shaymin and Breloom as much, meaning that you'd really have to use Togekiss itself to deal with them, which would naturally help Voodoom and Togekiss to act more as partners, and make Voodoom less of a stand-alone sweeper. Also kind of interesting is that while neither move is good against Bulky Waters in general, which is good for keeping Voodoom from being too much of a tempting partner for Gyarados, all variants of Gyarados itself are guaranteed 2HKO'd by a Timid LO 252 SpA Voodoom Paleo Wave (of course, it's not overly relevant since Gyarados can be beaten by stuff like HP Electric and Stone Edge regardless, but that's just a tidbit that I found interesting, especially since it's a way of beating it without dedicating a HP to it or using an inaccurate move like SE).

Either way (Ice Beam or Paleo Wave) though, I'd be totally fine with it now, but Paleo Wave does seem to have some interesting traits to it that would make it more fitting to the concept to me.

 

[petrie911]

For all those people who want to disallow EQ, keep in mind that a SE EQ is 200 power compared to STAB CC's 180. Not really that much of a boost, and EQ has really redundant coverage with CC. I'm just not seeing the argument for disallowing it.

However, as long as we're discussing Earthquake, shouldn't we also discuss Earth Power? It's got rather redundant coverage with Aura Sphere, though not quite as redundant as EQ is with CC, but Voodoom's higher special attack might find it more useful than EQ. Personally, I'm all for allowing it.

 

[Veedrock]

For all intents and purposes Paleo Wave doesn't even exist. Unless Voodoom absolutely needs a 'signature' Special Rock attack, it shouldn't be on the table.

 

[Jibaku]

I honestly can't believe a few people are even considering Earthquake or Shadow Sneak for disallowed.

Earthquake and Close Combat offer redundant coverage, and a neutral Close Combat is nearly as powerful as a super effective Earthquake. How many things in OU are at least ever so slightly hit harder by Earthquake than CC and its STAB?

Heatran, Jirachi, Metagross, Infernape (lol), Jirachi, Jolteon (lol), Electivire (lol), Magnezone, Tentacruel.

Now a few calcs will prove that Earthquake's "slight damage boost" isn't worth even a moveslot.

Heatran
0 Atk Life Orb Earthquake vs. 4 / 0 Heatran - 96.3%-100%
0 Atk Life Orb Close Combat vs 4 / 0 Heatran - 85.8%-100%
252 SAtk Life Orb Aura Sphere vs 4 / 0 Heatran - 97%-100%

Heatran is easily OHKOed by all three attacks after Stealth Rock. I have the Aura Sphere calc in there since if you aren't using any sort of Attack investment, yet you are using Life Orb, you're probably going to maxed SA investment and Aura Sphere. Obviously, if you invest in Attack, Heatran is dead.

I suppose I should calc for defensive Heatran but heatran has quite a bit of defensive versatility so this is just a general picture

Jirachi
0 Atk Life Orb Earthquake vs. standard Scarf Jirachi: 48%-56%
0 Atk Life Orb Close Combat vs standard Scarf Jirachi: 42%-50%
252 SAtk Life Orb Aura Sphere vs standard Scarf Jirachi: 48%-56%

Earthquake is irrelevant. Either Aura Sphere or Close Combat 2HKOes, depending on your investment. The only difference that this makes is that if you CC a Scarf Jirachi switch in your Def down means Iron Head will 2HKO, but you know you'd probably swap out anyways

252 Atk Life Orb Close Combat vs 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Jirachi: 35.6%-41.8%
252 Atk Life Orb Earthquake vs 252/220 Def Bold Jirachi: 39.5%-46.4%
0 Atk Life Orb Close COmbat vs 252 HP / 220 Def Bold Jirachi: 27%-32%
0 Atk Life Orb Earthquake vs the same Jirachi: 30.2%-35.6%
252 SAtk Life Orb Aura Sphere: 40.8%-48.3%

Ehh idk why I did this calc anyways but I did it

Now let's cut to the chase: Calcs vs Infernape are irrelevant as EQ and CC both can OHKO after SR (though EQ is guaranteed; both calcs are done with max Atk), Magnezone has less defenses than Heatran so that Heatran calc should prove something, Metagross is generally hit harder by Aura Sphere, Jolteon gets OHKOed by either CC / EQ, Electivire gets OHKOed by both EQ / CC, and that leaves Tentacruel, who is mostly an irrelevant Pokemon anyways and I wouldn't waste a moveslot JUST to hit it - there are better things to cover.

Onto moveslots
Where would Earthquake even fit in? On a pure physical set? Honestly, what kind of physical set you'd use? You could use a Bulk Up physical set, but Earthquake wouldn't have room, or some 4 Atk Life Orb set? CC / [Physical Dark move] / Stone Edge / Mach Punch or something along the lines of that? Earthquake has no room once more). The mixed set? Close Combat / Aura Sphere / Dark Pulse / [Ice Beam or Vacuum Wave].

In other words, Earthquake shouldn't even BE in controversial . It should be allowed, plain and simple

Now onto Shadow Sneak: Okay I understand why you'd oppose Sucker Punch, but Shadow Sneak? Really? It has three times less power!
Life Orb Shadow Sneak doesn't even 2HKO 0/0 Starmie from max Atk investment, and falters against just about everything else in the game (max Atk Life Orb Shadow Sneak vs Flygon maxes at 21%....). Honestly, disallowing this move is extremely stupid.


Opinions on other moves:

Elemental Punches: Disallow Fire Punch, allow ThunderPunch and Ice Punch. Ice Punch should be allowed if Ice Beam will be, considering it is much weaker and it comes off a weaker attack stat. ThunderPunch doesn't really give this thing much of a weapon against bulky Waters, considering it is significantly weaker (Super effective ThunderPunch is 20% weaker than a neutral Close Combat, for instance). Assuming max Attack and Life Orb ThunderPunch maxes out at ~41% vs Vaporeon (doesn't even 2HKO with stealth rock + spikes - leftovers, or stealth rock + sandstorm), and 30% vs Bold defensive Suicune and may not even 2HKO offensive Suicune). The only target ThunderPunch really hits is Gyarados, and I'd much rather use Hidden Power Electric for that (don't tell me this invalidates Hidden Power for another type, because as far as moveslots go, the first three would moves would probably be CC / Aura Sphere / Dark Pulse). Fire Punch is disallowed because HP Fire is unlike HP Electric, HP Fire nets you that cursed 30 Speed IV, and Fire Punch allows you to hit Forretress, Scizor and Heracross without that drawback.

Psychic: You hit Machamp (2hkoed by Aura Sphere), Infernape (lol), Tentacruel (irrelevant Pokemon for the most part, and isn't even 2hkoed by LO Psychic, but can be 2HKOed by LO Crunch, and Crunch is allowed), and Heracross (who still soft counters Voodoom as it can survive Psychic, switch into everything else, and kill with CC. Psychic should be allowed

 

[capefeather]

Jibaku has convinced me that Ice Punch, ThunderPunch and Shadow Sneak are too weak to have much of an impact on physical Voodoom's viability. My gripes against the punches were mostly against Fire Punch, anyway.

On Sucker Punch:

Sucker Punch and Pursuit are not the same when dealing with Starmie. Sucker Punch only reliably helps against Starmie and Scarfers, while Pursuit can chase down a fleeing Rotom or Gengar. However, I still don't have much of an opinion on Pursuit.