CAP 13 CAP 2 - Part 4 - Stat Limits

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

To format my opinion in the same way that everybody else has...:

PT: Above Average - Good
PS: Average - Above Average
ST: Above Average - Good
SS: Average - Above Average

Something that needs to be pointed out to avoid possible future confusion is that not everybody is ordering these the same way.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

Taking into consideration how much better Special boosting moves (as well as CAP2's STABs) are than Physical, I feel CAP2 ought to have Very Good PS and Above Average SS, so as to make effective all-out physical offense with Sketch coverage possible while still allowing for effective Special boosting sets. I also believe an Above Average PT which allows CAP2 to be O/2HKO'd by Scizor's Bullet Punch after a Shell Smash is in order. Due to its resists to the primarily-Special Water, Grass, and Electric types, and also due to the fact that Hydreigon has been named as a relatively hard counter, I believe CAP2 should receive a Good ST, which lets it switch in on resists and set-up, while still being O/2HKO'd by Hydreigon's Fire Blast.

PS: Very Good
PT: Above Average
SS: Above Average
ST: Very Good

Edit: When I look at the stat biases I just laid out relative to each other, I think of a Flareon-esque stat spread, with Defense and Special Attack stats well above that meager 65. :P

Edit Edit: After taking a moment of consideration, I've decided to increase ST from Good to Very Good. Fits more into the whole "Hydreigon only 2HKOing a Grass-type" thing. :P

 

[Imanalt]

PT:
I would like this to be either high in the above average spectrum, or low in the good spectrum. Some people have been advocating for higher PT than ST, but i strongly disagree, all priority that can hit CAP 2 is physical, so a lower PT makes shell smash slightly less powerful. Secondly, this poke has access to quiver dance through sketch. Do we really want a physically bulky pokemon that can boost its special defense? After just one quiver dance, it would become a bulky monster, making quiver danced sets way too powerful if PT is high.

ST:
Very good. Its already been decided that this CAP is bulky offense, so it needs to be bulky somewhere. Being specially bulky helps it against many forms of dragonite, as it would likely be able to tank a hurricane. Also, special bulk allows it to capitalize on many of its resistances, as well as allowing it to do even better against opposing rain and sun.

Now onto its attacking stats. I'm going to explain these 2 together, as the power of one affects my thoughts on the power of the other. First of all, i favor much better physical power than special power, simply because of the fact that it has better boosting options on the special side. Secondly, instead of the high speed low attackingstats model, i support a low speed higher attackign stats spread, as this allows sets without setup moves to hit harder. To this effect i support PS of good, bordering on very good, and a SS of above average to good.

 

[sax king]

Honestly I believe this mon will balance itself. I stand by my initial belief that this mon should be completely balanced like the pixies. Because if you think about it, while all of those mons are different, they generally take a defensive role with a bit of offense mixed in. Celebi is defensive, but is very capable of attacking. Jirachi is most definitely bulky offense or defense. And although Mew rarely makes its way into OU, it takes on the role of bulky offense. So by balancing the stats across the board, the mon naturally takes on a defensive-ish role that is capable of offense. Although we may not use 100 for each stat, it still is enough to tank but just shy of outright sweeping.

One thing that sets sketchy apart from these other mons is its typing and movepool, however. These two factors will help it lean enough towards offense to justify it as a bulky offense mon. Its typing is certainly not defensive at all. It is weak to Fire, Ice, Flying, Ghost, and Dark (therefore meaning both Pursuit and Suckerpunch) while it only resists Water, Ground, Normal, Fighting, Electric, and Grass. This is not typing for a wall. Because its typing forbids it from being so, the mon will lean towards offense rather than defense, even though it will still be fairly balanced. The other factor that pushes it towards offense is its amazing movepool. Jirachi and Celebi aren't offensive mons because they don't have access to the same moves as Sketchy. If Celebi had quiver dance, it would be a bulky sweeper. If Jirachi had gear shift, it would be a bulky sweeper. And if any of these mons had something like tail glow, they would all be bulky sweepers. Sketchy's great offensive movepool allows it to be a bulky offense mon even if its stats allow it to be defensive. Sketchy should be balanced in its stats. It will be capable of defense, but it should really stick to offense.

As for the physical and special split, once again they should be equal. While some might want more special attack due to its better special attacking stats, it will balance out with its physical stats if they are equal. If the stats are equal, Sketchy might consider Shadow Sneak or Shadow Punch, or even consider physical sweeping even though its special movepool is better. If we bring one stat above the other, we pretty much eliminate that option. If physical is higher than special, than no one will run special, and if special is higher than physical, no one will run physical. And for defenses, it needs to be bulky on both sides of the spectrum, and it needs to be able to tank a hit from all types of mons.

So although it doesn't need to be the 600 pixies, it should be modeled after them. Physical Sweepiness, Physical Tankiness, Special Sweepiness, and Special Tankiness need to be the same across the board.

 

[Spork]

I've absorbed all the posts here and I've come to a personal conclusion...

@Dusk: A Gear Shift or even a Coil set isn't going to work unless we give this guy some serious coverage, and even then it'll probably be outclassed by somethign like Sd Virizion (I'm thinking you're have to give it something ridiculous like Fire Punch or Close Combat). It's STABs are just too poor for a clean sweep in OU, and it's even going to have trouble wallbreaking with all those steels hanging around (even Jirachi and Bronzong are huge problems what with the terrible selection of physical Ghost moves available). There's even a bunch of common pokes that actually outright resist Grass and Ghost without even being Steel. Honestly, it's safe to give this guy good PS, and we're doing it a disservice if we don't. Also, when it comes to nerfing one offense for the sake of limiting variety; I really feel that's kinda against the CAP's premise. Sure, unpredictability can be broken in some (very very specific) circumstances, but really, Sketchy is going to be checked by the threats already outlined no matter what. Its STABs are just too easy to counter for mixed offenses to be threatening, even with a Shell Smash. I still think we should have lower SS, but that's because special on its own is more threatening for this guy than mixed. If this guy deviates from its standard sets to the extent that is can defeat a designated counter 1-on-1 (which IMO is something Sketchy should be able to do) then it's probably been warped so much to fill the niche that it's not going to pose much of a threat by itself anyway.

@anyone saying 'we need to keep this guy's stats low': just so we're on the same page, I hope you're not suggesting that we should keep the numbers low, or keep the BST low, in order to create an appearance of balance. Also, you should know that the "jack of all trades master of none" idea was somewhat shot during concept discussion; we want it to be good at various things, yes, but we want it to be able to effectively abuse the myriad powerful moves it has access to, that other pokemon cannot abuse effectively in OU (otherwise what are we doing). Also, if Sketchy isn't effective in top tier OU, then it's barely worthwhile making. Attempting to nerf the guy at every stage doesn't help,

lol anyway

PT: Good
ST: Very Good or higher really. (perhaps not Fantastic)
PS: Very Good or Excellent.
SS: Above Average

reachzero's reasoning for Special Tankiness being Very Good+ is my reasoning. Its defensive niche is primarily on the special side, so giving it a good rating here actually allows us to take advantage of the various non-offensive options Sketchy is gonna have access to, as well as bulky-boosting moves. There's also the least chance of breaking CAP2 if its bulk is biased specially; the few specially-based threats we've listed can OHKO it all the way up to Fantastic, so we might as well make it somewhat high and give Sketchy the best chance of being balanced that we can. This guy has such an interesting and possibly extremely useful defensive typing, I cannot stress that enough. Physical Tankiness should not be so low that it's worthless even with investment (Good is basically Jellicent-esque bulk), but being able to revenge kill this guy, be it with Priority or a Scarfer, is most often reliant on physical defense, so when uninvested, or after a Shell Smash, it ought to be quite low.

As for offenses, I've made myself clear. We aren't making this guy crazy broken by giving him anything short of Fantastic Physical Sweepiness, and he isn't boosting it either way, so we might as well give him off-the-bat potency. I'm leaning more towards Excellent myself, as it really lets you plough stuff down. This guy isn't outright sweeping with all-out attacking sets in all probability, even with coverage, so we should at least give him the ability to actually beat common walls, otherwise what's the point. When it comes to Special Sweepiness, we could probably go for Good as well, but I'm all for limiting it at this stage - make it too high and Quiver Dance would just dominate (although, lessening its Physical Bulk does actually make QD less dominating than you might think...).

Anyway, FINAL WORD (well not really)

Actual final word AKA edit: its weaknesses do not prohibit it from being a wall. The only weaknesses it has that really stand out are Fire and Dark, one of which is solved by Rain - Flying attacks are unfortunately very rare, Ice attacks are mostly unSTAB'd and specially based, and Ghost is basically Gengar who hates switching in anyway. It could make a very effective wall, or at least a very effective "bulky attacker" (lol) especially because of its delicious defensive niche. This guy really has a lot of potential for special walling. Also 'same across the board' makes no sense, as because of the disparity between the quality of each move available, and the effectiveness of the typing we've given it, if we give it the same physical stats across the board you're going to end up with a mon that is very biased towards something anyway (probably special attacking). Use the Celebi example: sure Celebi would always use QD if it had it, but, if its movepool allowed, would it use Gear Shift over QD? How about Sacred Fire? lolno

 

[Bughouse]

I posted earlier with some rationale. Basically I think that the Physical Tankiness should be pretty mediocre for OU. CAP2 already resists Ground and is immune to Fighting and Normal. Aside from the rarely seen Flying (aka Brave Bird,) Bug (U-turn/Bug Bite/X-Scissor,) and Dark (Crunch, Sucker Punch, and Pursuit) CAP2 based on typing alone, should be able to deal with most Physical threats ok. I don't think we should make CAP2 so physically bulky that a Defensive Wall set becomes the best option. That would be a very uninteresting result of this CAP. Being a Ghost, CAP2 will almost certainly get Will-o-Wisp to aid what I hope will be mediocre Physical defense. It should be able to outspeed Scizor, not using Bullet Punch of course, and Will-o-Wisp it to cripple, should CAP2 be used defensively.

Instead I advocate the bulkiness to come on the special side. I've been thinking CAP2 should have comparable, though definitely a bit worse, Special Tankiness to Jellicent. Maybe somewhere in the 90 HP/95 SpDef range.

Flavor-wise I love the idea of Jellicent, Chandelure, and CAP2 being the three "elemental Ghosts," whose Base Stats focus on different aspects. Chandelure as Special Sweeper, Jellicent as Special Wall, and CAP2 as a more versatile Poke able to be a Physical attacker on a Coil Set, a mixed sweeper on a Shell Smash set, etc.

As for the attacking stats, I am hesitant to lean one way or the other. At a certain point in either stat, Shell Smash becomes very threatening, even with a limited movepool. Given that popular demand seems to place CAP2 somewhere in the 70-100 Base Speed, (a wide range I know,) we need to be very careful. The fastest current Shell Smasher is Smeargle at 75, followed by Cloyster at 70. All the rest are 55 or lower. If CAP2 were Base 81 speed, as I proposed earlier, for example, running max Speed, after 1 Shell Smash, CAP2 would reach 574 speed. That outspeeds even Venusaur in Sun. And since CAP2 is immune to Mach Punch/Vacuum Wave/Extremespeed/Fake Out, this seems a bit broken if either of its Attacking stats are high enough.

That is why I am proposing:

Physical Tankiness (PT)
Above Average

Physical Sweepiness (PS)
Above Average

Special Tankiness (ST)
Very Good

Special Sweepiness
Above Average

I have found a Stat Spread that does this with 485 BST, which is on the low side of OU, and rightfully so for something with Sketch. Personally, I think that whatever Stat Spread we decide to use, it should be no more than 500 BST.

 

[Scoopapa]

For the most part this goes with the flow for the most part. However, for perhaps the first time in the history of CAP, I'm worried that some people are overcompensating and suggesting stat spreads that are too weak.

PT: Above Average

This is the region where CB Scizor will OHKO an uninvested sketchy at -1 defense. Other variants will have no problem 2HKOing or even OHKOing after some residual damage. We have room within this area to decide whether or not Lefties Scizor can 2HKO Quiver Dance variants, as towards the upper end it cannot while towards the lower end it can. Stuff like LO Weavile Ice Shard and Uninvested Spiritomb Sucker Punch can KO uninvested spreads in this range at -1 Def as well.

Politoed sits at the upper end of Above Average PT, which is a good sign that we can suffer the aforementioned KOes while still being able to run a viable bulky spread. Politoed does alright with Bold spreads, and sketchy could arguably do better with his cool typing. Spreads towards the upper end of this range can just avoid a 2HKO from CB Landorus in sand, for instance.

Basically, with above average we are checked by what we want to be checked by but not so frail that we can't abuse the cool typing.

PS: Good

I can't use any calcs in my reasoning here since unlike tank ratings sweep ratings rely partly on speed, but I'll say that this should be pretty good. Grass isn't a terrible STAB type, but Ghost is, and as mentioned ad nauseum already here, physical boosting moves aren't as strong as special ones. No boosting Atk 3 stages, no boosting bulk, atk, and speed at the same time, and no extra coverage in hidden power all mean that the physical sets are less likely to be overpowered than the special ones. Given this, we can afford a Good rating. We can probably even afford 5 or so points higher, but I don't want to say "very good" and seem like i'm suggesting 175 ratings here.

ST: Very Good

I think this is important for the viability of any set not using Quiver Dance, and for keeping with the "bulky" part of "bulky offense". It should be noticed that uninvested spreads are mostly still getting OHKOed by LO Heatran at +1 SpD. Even at +2 we're talking an assload of damage and possible KOes after SR unless we push this to the upper limit.

At the same time, we can comfortably take Ice Beam from bulky waters with no investment, and run a special defensive set that has some true staying power. This is good because abusing our Water/Electric/Grass resistances may require eating weakish coverage moves from time to time.

SS: Good

I'm not really advocating 150 ratings here but I feel limiting ourselves to Above Average is a bad idea. The STAB moves available to Ghost and Grass are pretty low BP, which is something to take into serious consideration. If this guy gets a SpA that most mons would find unusable, it's going to be difficult to use on sketchmon, too. I know this isn't the stage for individual stats, but to illustrate a point, a +nature base 80 stat at +3 is lower than a +nature base 115 stat at +2. If we're creating a pokemon that can sketch a Tail Glow set, let's at least make it a Tail Glow set and not a Nasty Plot set. Again I must stress that short of inventing moves we've predetermined to have low BP special STAB by virtue of Ghost/Grass typing. I think the low end of Good is appropriate here.

 

[Deck Knight]

Rather than advocating anything specific of yet, I'll just give some background info on what the quantifiable limits of each stage boost are in order to better inform the decisions. The stats seem to be oscillating between Above Average and Very Good, so I'll provide ranges.

Offensive Delineation:

Very Good:

Speed Stat: 115
Maximum Offense: 94

Speed Stat: 100
Maximum Offense: 101

Speed Stat: 95
Maximum Offense: 106

Speed Stat: 90
Maximum Offense: 112

Speed Stat: 85
Maximum Offense: 117

Good:

Speed Stat: 115
Maximum Offense: 81

Speed Stat: 100
Maximum Offense: 87

Speed Stat: 95
Maximum Offense: 91

Speed Stat: 90
Maximum Offense: 95

Speed Stat: 85
Maximum Offense: 100

Above Average:

Speed Stat: 115
Maximum Offense: 67

Speed Stat: 100
Maximum Offense: 72

Speed Stat: 95
Maximum Offense: 75

Speed Stat: 90
Maximum Offense: 78

Speed Stat: 85
Maximum Offense: 82

Analysis:

I chose the speeds I think that are generally representative of the ideas going around. Obviously you can intuit what a 105 or 110 max offensive speed would be from this data, but I think this gives enough info on what an Above Average, Good, or Very Good stat limit actually means. If you wanted a Good Physical Attacker and an Above Average Special Attacker, but thought you needed as much speed as possible, you'd end up with 81/67/115 Offenses. That might not be enough firepower for the CAP, but at least you have a working knowledge of what the limits are in real terms.

Defensive Delineation:

Very Good:

HP Stat: 100
Maximum Defense/SpD: 99/100

HP Stat: 90
Maximum Defense/SpD: 106/107

HP Stat: 80
Maximum Defense/SpD: 115/115

HP Stat: 60
Maximum Defense/SpD: 135/136

Good:

HP Stat: 100
Maximum Defense/SpD: 84/84

HP Stat: 90
Maximum Defense/SpD: 91/91

HP Stat: 80
Maximum Defense/SpD: 98/98

HP Stat: 60
Maximum Defense/SpD: 116/116

Above Average:

HP Stat: 100
Maximum Defense/SpD: 70/69

HP Stat: 90
Maximum Defense/SpD: 75/75

HP Stat: 80
Maximum Defense/SpD: 81/81

HP Stat: 60
Maximum Defense/SpD: 97/96

Analysis:

Applying this here, if you wanted to have Very Good Special Tankiness and only Above Average Physical Tankiness, you'd end up with some combination like 100/70/100 Defenses, or if you like Leech Seed more, something like 60/97/136. Obviously you'd tinker with it, but my post is all about giving you an idea of what the stats actually mean. Technically I should put this in a guide so we can link up to it, since its relevant every time we do stats, heh.

 

[Steamroll]

PT: Above Average
PS: Good
ST: Very Good
SS: Very Good

Physical Tankiness: Basing this off of the threat list CAP2 is going to have some problems with pursuit. But being as CAP2 is likely to get Will-O-Wisp I don't think it really needs that much towards physical defense. Plus it is immune to all forms of priority sans aqua jet and bullet punch, only neutral to the latter. Getting away from weaknesses and immunities it should be able to take most attacks and be able to either dish back or wittle them down with will-o-wisp or even leech seed.

Physical Sweepiness: I think that CAP2 should at least be able to hit back for decent damage on most mons. He should be able to keep blissey at bay (where she needs two softboileds to get back to decent health) and also be able to break down some physical walls.

Special Tankiness: I believe that this should be higher than physical tankiness due to the fact that special moves aren't hurt by burn and most run shadow ball and or fire blast, both will be very dangerous for CAP2. Gengar should get mention for this, even chandy, alakazam and reuniclus, too.

Special Sweepiness: I believe that CAP2's special attack should be enough to dent sp. def tran and skarmory. While able to clean off Gengar , chandelure and alakazam.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'll second the motion for a guide with this sort of information, especially in easy table format.

I'm still not comfortable putting forth a hard rating in each catagory, so I think I'll continue gathering information and watching. What I'm really interested in is what stats get us what KOs after what boosts. I want to make sure we miss the crucial counters, but suggesting a speed range and an offense range is difficult. The defenses are much easier to adjudicate, but all the same I think I'll wait for that too.

 

[the dead mans oddysey]

PT:below average-average

PS: above average

ST: very good

SS: very good

physical tankiness: being a gohost, it will most likely have access to Will-O-Wisp, making it take physical hits better.

Physical sweepiness: so its not completely useless when you accidentaley sketch bullet punch or somthin'

Special tankiness: it needs to take hits from both sides, and CAP 2 appears to be specially based

Special sweepiness: It has to hit well on both sides, and with probable access to Psychoshock (not guaranteed), it could be a real menace for OU.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

Simply to balance the offenses out and keep them pretty low, I think we'll want to keep both Sweepiness's to either Above Average or Good. Tankiness's can stay at Good to Very Good, as we want Bulky offense.

Physical Tankiness- Good
Physical Sweepiness-Above Average
Special Tankiness- Very Good
Physical Sweepiness- Above Average

is what I want for Sketchster.

Sketchmon's Grass/Ghost typing makes it a really, really good Shell Smash sweeper because it is immune to ExtremeSpeed and Mach Punch. The only priority that beats it is Ice Shard and well-predicted Sucker Punch. With White Herb, this thing could be monstrous, but at least Ferrothorn resists its STABs.

 

[Lucario_Guy]

so its not completely useless when you accidentaley sketch bullet punch or somthin'

Sketch's utility in the context of this CAP, and in competitive Pokémon in general, is simply to provide access to any other move, not to use it during battle as a glorified Mimic. Therefore, there is no "accidentally Sketching" anything.

I'll second the motion for a guide with this sort of information, especially in easy table format.

Third-ed.


btw, I'm not sure we want to give CAP2 Speed higher than around 80 - this thing has access to Shell Smash, and could very easily get out of hand with Speed like 110. We want Hydreigon to stop this thing, too, and that isn't happening if CAP2 can out-speed it and OHKO with <insert Sketch'd Fighting move here>.

 

[reachzero]

Hi everyone, I like where the discussion is going, but just posting to remind everyone that discussion of specific stats is polljumping. We're talking about stat limits here. Thank you.

 

[Bork]

My first consideration for the stats would be Shell Smash, as it is probably the most ground-breaking move CAP2 could abuse--not necessarily the best though. So obviously I brought up Cloyster, the best Shell Smasher, and I found it is Above Average in both attacking stats. Compared to CAP2 typing wise, Cloyster is better offensively while CAP2 is better defensively (specifically no SR weakness.) Cloyster's Special offense is not often seen due to its superior physical option, so in order to compensate for that, CAP2 will have to have lower SpA than Atk as Grass/Ghost is better from the special side than from the physical side. As such I suggest that CAP2 have:
PS-Good
SS-Above Average
Now while I was only considering Shell Smash before, that is still effective for other roles. For example a Wall breaker could run our physical Grass move of choice, either Shadow Ball (which I assume CAP2 will get) or Shadow Sneak (which is at least within the real of possibility), and then Sketch V-Create. A anything with a competent SpA could use Tail Glow well, especially if its bulky. So this offensive spread is pretty good.

As for defense I compared it to Venusaur and Jellicent, who both share part of CAP2's typing. Both lean heavily on their Special Defense, but I'm not sure that is the best track for CAP2. Two of CAP2's biggest counters based off typing are Hydreigon and Heatran, both of whom have killer SpA. As such I think it would be more prudent to beef out physical defense and make CAP2 merely average from the special side. That will make it good enough that bulky waters won't both staying in on it, but not to the point where someone can use it to wall Reuniclus or something. So my overall defensive suggestion would be:
PT-Very Good
ST-Above Average

 

[Birkal]

I'm in agreement with reachzero's reasonings and a lot of others' thoughts as well. My spread is slightly different however:

PT: Good
PS: Above Average
ST: Very Good
SS: Average

There are plenty of attacks this would try to switch in on and get the upper hand. More Special ones for sure, so the ST should be higher than PT. A good PT, for me, ensures that we could explore our options, but it isn't gravely required. Most Physical attackers have their moves boosted in some way (Choice Band, Swords Dance--as opposed to special attackers not always being boosted), so a higher PT than ST is not necessary.

Like what many of you say, the Special boosting moves are more dangerous, so a lower SS han PS balances this out.

Special Tankiness seems to be a key aspect here so far.

I would definitely like to second this post; it is pretty much what I had in mind. It is like reachzero's proposal but a bit more fine-tuned to CAP2's Sketch, in my opinion. Tail Glow and Quiver Dance are going to be very popular options, so I would enjoy the benefits of a higher PS than SS. Also, CAP2 is going to be absorbing lots of special attacks with its typing, so ST is definitely important. However, let's remember that Electric and Grass-type attacks are not incredibly prevalent in OU. That's why I believe that PT should also be emphasized, since it would be nice for CAP2 to be able to use its Normal, Fighting, and Ground immunities/resistances for good uses.

Again, if we want to make lots of moves viable for Sketch, Tankiness is very important since boosting moves are (in general) more effective than supporting ones. A higher Tankiness will make those supportive and defensive moves much more viable and even out the tables.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Physical Tankiness (PT) Good.
Physical Sweepiness (PS) Above Average.
Special Tankiness (ST) Good.
Special Sweepiness (SS) Very good - excelent.

Seriously, access to Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Psystrike, Seed Flare, or Overheat are just to good to pass up. Besides, there aren't as good offensive moves for physical stab (seed bomb / power whip / shadow claw < Seed Flare / Shadow Ball ).

 

[Korski]

In terms of limits, I don't think any of the relevant categories should break into Excellent territory, because the power of this 'mon comes from its access to Sketch, not its stats. That isn't to say we should overcompensate or make the Poke too weak, so Very Good as across the board as limits will keep things balanced and force stat spread submitters to be creative with different approaches to the concept. Obviously, serious spreads won't be pushing the limits of Very Good in every category, so submitters will have to justify their decisions with each stat. Over that threshold may be pigeon-holing CAP too much as a defensive or offensive or physical or special threat.

 

[verbatim]

We should be really careful when advocating high or even very high PS or SS for Sketchy. We have to remember how powerful a pokemon with 100+ attack/special attack and access to at least one of Freeze Shock, Ice Burn, Blue Fire, Sacred Fire, Hi Jump Kick, Seed Flare, and Shadow Ball and Leaf Storm/Energy Ball (which will probably end up on Sketchy). Also, for anyone interested, Freeze Shock and Ice Burn will ohko 4 hp Hydreigon as long as Sketch has a minimum Special Attack stat of 95 in combination with a Life Orb and a Modest Nature.

 

[Cuiv]

I definitely think there should be no bias towards either Physical or Special, defensively or offensively. (I could see maybe a slight Special bias defensively that is ameliorated by standard Ghost access to WoW, but otherwise no.) One of the best things about Sketchmon is his unpredictability; he should be able to surprise opponents by being able to run Tail Glow, Quiver Dance, Shift Gear, Swords Dance (available to all Grass-types, so no need for Sketch) and Shell Smash sets.

I'm not worried about Special having an advantage due to Hidden Power because Sketchmon will have natural access to Swords Dance, as it's available to all Grass types, so physical-sweeper Sketchmon using SD will still have access to some powerful physical Sketch move, like Sacred Fire, while special-sweeper Sketchmon will probably have to rely on Calm Mind (available to all Ghost types) or use its Sketch slot to get Tail Glow or Quiver Dance. Also, OU in general is physically biased, so even if Sketchmon does end up leaning Special, that's not a bad thing in my mind.

Additionally, I think it should be fairly fast so it isn't forced to use speed-boosting set-up moves. Tail Glow and Swords Dance should be viable options.

Something like 80/90/85/90/85/105 would be reasonable to me; neither too offensive nor too defensive.

Physical Tankiness (PT) Good
Physical Sweepiness (PS) Very Good
Special Tankiness (ST) Good
Special Sweepiness (SS) Very Good


Sample movesets:

Physical Booster

Swords Dance
Power Whip
Sacred Fire [Sketched]
Shadow Claw / Return / Substitute / something else (Rock Slide or Earthquake, perhaps, if it has access)


Special Booster

Tail Glow / Quiver Dance [Sketched]
Giga Drain
HP Fire / Earth Power
Shadow Ball


Shell Smash

Shell Smash [Sketched]
Power Whip
Shadow Ball
HP Fire / Earth Power / something physical like Rock Slide or Earthquake if it has access


Double-Status

Spore [Sketched]
Will-o-Wisp
Power Whip / Giga Drain
Shadow Ball

 

[Yllnath]

I find myself agreeing to Spork and Scoopapa, some ratings that I'm seeing proposed seem too low for Sketchy to perform well. I also like Spork's ratings best. PS should not be Excellent, that goes into border overkill, but at the same time, it should not be lower than Good. I'm also leaning towards Very Good, really. Physical STABs aren't plowing through anything unless there's some bite behind it in terms of stats, and a physical set is lacking the godgiven Hidden Power, so there's no free coverage move. (Unless we're giving this the elemental punches or something) It's very likely you'll have to Sketch for a physical coverage move, foregoing a boosting move. If you want to kill things unboosted from a Average or Above Average PS, you're not doing much damage and it'll be likely that the physical options will fall completely out of use.

Since I would like to see both special and physical attacking options be competitively viable, I think that Spork is right on with his PS and SS.

Note that with a PS of Very Good, given 85 Speed, the bare minimum I think Sketchy should have in terms of speed, you'll only reach a 117 Atk stat. Make him faster and you'll even have a lower Atk stat. 117 Atk really doesn't seem like overkill, even if you could viably sport any and all coverage moves (all of them most likely unSTABbed) with absurd BPs. If you have that absurd coverage move, you can't boost. If you do get something like Fire Punch, then +2 Fire Punch/Shadow Punch/Power Whip (or Leaf Blade) coming from a 117 Atk stat, isn't the scariest attacker out there either, especially given the fact that you're then at -2 def and ripe for getting revenge killed.

For SS, Above Average seems spot on. 82 SpA when assuming 85 speed (and lower SpA stats and higher speeds) seems just about right. Tail Glow, and you're not outspeeding anything. You'll pack a punch, sure, but there's less a chance to sweep due to lower speed. Shell Smash, and you're more easily revenge killed.

The PT and ST seem a bit high though. Good/Very Good gives possibility to a 100/84/100, or even something like 60/116/136, for Leech Seed/Pain Split purposes (Grass/Ghost seems like a fantastic leeching typing :)). These stats scream tank a little bit too much to me.
Going Above Average/Good (PT/ST) still gives 100/70/84, or if we'd want to go a Low HP route, 60/97/116. These aren't necessarily tanking stats, but still gives plenty of bulk to a pokemon that can otherwise get access to any move in the game, including defense boosting moves and support moves if he so wishes. If you wish to play more defensively and EV accordingly, then these latter set of stats seem more inline with the Bulky Offense type of route. Going higher than Above Average/Good (PT/ST), and you might risk an outright tank when EV'd accordingly.

My personal slate would be something like this:

PS: Very Good
PT: Above Average
SS: Above Average
ST: Good

 

[zarator]

We should be really careful when advocating high or even very high PS or SS for Sketchy. We have to remember how powerful a pokemon with 100+ attack/special attack and access to at least one of Freeze Shock, Ice Burn, Blue Fire, Sacred Fire, Hi Jump Kick, Seed Flare, and Shadow Ball and Leaf Storm/Energy Ball (which will probably end up on Sketchy). Also, for anyone interested, Freeze Shock and Ice Burn will ohko 4 hp Hydreigon as long as Sketch has a minimum Special Attack stat of 95 in combination with a Life Orb and a Modest Nature.

You do realize Freeze Shock and Ice Burn can't be currently sketched because nothing learns either at the moment, right? Plus, the fact that since both have a charge turn like Sky Attack, their viability is questionable at best?

 

[Spork]

I don't want to be posting too much, but I'd just like to give a warning about the continuing trend towards conservatism with stat ratings. In a way, Deck Knight's post, and the image people concieve when they consider stat limits, are kinda deceptive; in both cases, you're looking at the absolute maximum stats we can alllow with the limit. When I write something like "Physical Sweepiness should be Very Good or Excellent", I basically AM considering the borderline; the absolute maximum for Very Good is what I'm leaning towards, or Excellent's absolute minimum, not the absolute maximum for Excellent. There is a pretty massive spectrum within a category like "Very Good", remember; for Physical Sweepiness, you're looking at a range of 101 to 117 Attack when at 85 speed. That's a big gap! Once we decide these stat limits, the actual stat spread submissions are going to fall somewhere within that spectrum, so you are going to get the diversity; if you tend towards lower Very Good, there'll probably be that option abvailable, or you could submit your own. What you need to be deciding here is whether the absolute maximum of the rating you're choosing is really the absolute maximum you want - Sketchy will not physically be allowed to go higher. If you're voting Good for PS because you want "something around 100/85 physical offense", you should probably be arguing for Very Good.

Sorry if this post is patronising or unnecessary but I just wanted it to be said lol. It's just astounding to me that people reckon a Ghost/Grass type without good coverage and with 100/85 offenses could be a good physical shell smash sweeper. And sorry for using 85 speed as an example so much, I don't even know exactly what I think about speed yet and it isn't even relevant here.

Thanks for agreeing btw Yllnath, I wasn't personally advocating Higher-end Good for Physical Tankiness (i said 'Jellicent-esque', which is pretty much the bare minimum), but I thought there'd be more flexibility if we allowed Good. As for Special tankiness, meh. I respectfuly disagree. I don't particularly mind too much, I just think we're really opening up this guy's options with decent Special Defense, whilst there's little chance of breaking it or neutering its threats - the goal of bulky offense is met much easier with a good defensive stat somewhere. 100/100 is the maximum at Very Good, and it's hardly overpowering when uninvested. Heatran and Hydreigon are always going to wreck you.

 

[rippersteveM5]

Looking at Deck Knight's table, we really shouldn't be advocating anything above Above Average for both PS and SS; access to Shell Smash means a 'Good' or even 'Very Good' limit on either sweepiness stat will either give Sketchy a ridiculous speed stat to work with or a ridiculous attacking stat to destory things with, no matter how bad its STABs.

To be honest, since Sketchy will have access to any boosting move it wants on either side of the spectrum, lower attacking stats will allow Sketchy to not be too broken after one turn of setup, yet still retain enough power unboosted to counter frailer opposition.

In turn, a limit of Good or Very Good in either of PT or ST should be right to keep the defenses in line with the 'bulky attacker' build, probably with a slight bias towards the special side, given it will most likely get WoW.

 

[CAPS alt]

I don't think 90-100 defenses would be broken at all so Very Good for ST and PT and Above average SS and good for PS. This thing will most likely end up becoming a better Celebi in my opinion. The physical set is looking pretty underwhelming as it lacks ghost stab and many grass types don't get wood hammer. This would be like Electivire last gen. who used its sp att. which was lower than its physical att. but gave it thunderbolt to work with.