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Whirlpool provides a trapping option that deals a bit of damage and can provide moveslot compression by being 25w's STAB move of choice and the trapping move of choice. Spider Web is a more reliable trapping option, guarateeing the opponent won't ever switch out unless they have Rapid Spin, Run Away or are Ghost-type;
Taunt cripples defensive pokemon such as Toxapex, Celesteela, Chansey and Arghonaut, giving 25w a perfect matchup against them.
Baneful Bunker provides protection and one free turn of recovery to stall out the opponent, while also providing extra poison chip damage, Spiky Shield has the same purpose, but provides chip damage against contact-move users;
Substitute allows 25w to stall out opponents more easily with help of protection moves;
Disable is another option that is (probably) too strong, but worth mentioning. It completely shuts down walls like Chansey, Cyclohm and others, making it easier to PP stall and make them struggle (literally);
Spite is another option to PP stall, weaker than Disable but also very reliable;
Scald can be used to cripple physical attackers that try to switch into 25w and is also a nice STAB move of choice. Alternatively, Ice Beam can be used for more consistent damage against the likes of Necturna and Zygarde.
80 Speed with Timid nature allows 25w to outspeed everything up to max speed neutral nature Mawile-mega, allowing for better Substitute/Disable/Taunt setups. The rest is put in defense for better taking the likes of Zygarde and Landorus-T. Othe options include specially defensive to take on special attackers better, max speed to outspeed more threats like 52 Spe defensive Jumbao and others.
I took inspiration from how Gothitelle works in Ubers hyper-offensive builds. It passively takes care of walls for it's teammates such as Marshadow and Salamence-mega to go rampant. It is a niche never seen before in the CAP metagame that suits 25w very well. it could also give Stall builds (that had kinda disappeared from the meta and are now struggling to find their place again) a new win condition and maybe make them more viable. I wanted to hear you guys' thoughts on this, since this can either be great or a complete disaster.
this sounds dumb. but maybe lets not give it a healing move like recover? high defense + healing move is a recipe for Cancer-Stall. (delete if not allowed.)
this sounds dumb. but maybe lets not give it a healing move like recover? high defense + healing move is a recipe for Cancer-Stall. (delete if not allowed.)
This set may not jump out as pro concept at first, but Poison Heal almost single-handedly makes the whole "bulky Swords Dance" thing possible, with a little help from Leech Life, as it can become incredibly difficult to 2HKO without a Choice item, which it can scout with Spiky Shield. Some pokemon that wall it such as Toxapex and Arghonaut still can't prevent it from recovering up to full very well, so I could see it functioning well as a wincon that can pivot during the middle of the match. It's worth noting, however, that many pokemon on our Checks list fail to stop this, such as defensive Zapdos, whose Dishcharge barely outdamages two turns of Poison Heal recovery.
Discussion has died down a ton over the last couple of days, so this will be our 48 hour warning before we wrap this thread up. 48 hours was chosen as the cut off time to allow people to get responses into all three threads if they desire. Use this time to make any final suggestions, may they be edits of existing movesets, comments on approved movesets, or new movesets. Do keep in mind that discussion is closing, so focus on discussing what has already brought up since we most likely not have the time to look at new moves/movesets in depth.
To quickly sum up the thread so far, 25w so far is a bulky Water that seeks to use Protect + Poison Heal as a source of recovery alongside utility options. Swords Dance, Trapping, and Sticky Web movesets have all been approved so far. We're currently looking at potential utility options.
On to moveset feedback:
Name: Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Ice Beam / Scald
Move 2: Leech Life / Scald / U-Turn
Move 3: Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpA
Nature: Relaxed (+Def -Spe)
Unapproved, but just because I want to know if people think TR needs an additional setter. The move itself on 25w is fine if we look at it in a vacuum; however, TR is a strong playstyle in the current meta and we're not forced to give it additional support, so I'd like us to look at this set from a metagame angle as well.
cap25w @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Poison Heal
EVs: 252 HP / 20 Def / 236 SpD
Bold Nature
- Stealth Rock / Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam / Scald
- Toxic
- Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Approved. This is a very basic utility set that provides hazard control in addition to being able to check what it needs to. Rapid Spin was chosen over Defog to allow Pajantom to target 25w better. Ice Beam does target some Pokemon we want as checks, such as Tornadus-T and Pajantom, but based off the roles we're going with, some way to put some pressure on them is needed for hazard setting sets. Both Baneful Bunker and Spiky Shield are approved, they're pro-concept and have been included in many movesets posted in the thread.
Name: PP Stall(breaker)
Move 1: Whirlpool / Spider Web
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Substitute / Disable / Spite / Scald / Ice Beam
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
Unapproved. I'm glad someone posted this set, Taunt + Trapping (with Disable and Spite as well) is something we should look at. This set goes deep into the trapping role and is tuned towards trapping and removing defensive Pokemon. It wouldn't be a stretch to say that this set does a better job of removing defensive Pokemon than Perish Trapping would. That said, I think further feedback on this moveset is warranted given the number of potential moves to discuss in Taunt, Disable, and Spite.
I'll just give a quick little break down on the last 3 sets, since the development of 25W has been very interesting to me.
First I'm glad the general utility set was approved, not the biggest fan of giving this thing Rapid Spin, but it's something I'll get over rather fast - and try to abuse later on. Honestly surprised nothing like this was suggested in the first go around since I feel this was the most stereotypical option for 25W, and will probably end up as one of if not the most common set run.
Trick Room is an interesting debate. I don't see Trick Room as an overpowered style at all, if you really prepped for it it's not going to winning super consistently, TR falls in line with a match up fish in every tier and cap is no different. Meaning that if the concern is that 25W will somehow break Trick Room by providing another setter I have serious concerns. Though if the idea is that 25W doesn't need Trick Room, and it's simply not a role we want to fulfill just based on concept and ability of choice then I'm okay with it. Honestly more okay with an arbitrary I just don't want to give this mon Trick Room, than the argument Trick Room is to good already.
Finally the trapper. I don't care much for the trapper sets after Perish was banned, also just btw Perish Song would have been a much stronger set overall than isolated trapper - like by a good margin, not that it matters. That said I see this set struggling a bit with 4mss, has a lot of similar issues as Psong does, and since I've already outlined how that set wasn't unhealthy I'll just refer you back to that post for what those issues are. That said if people don't want to see disable and Spite on the set I wont argue. No real strong opinion either way, just thought I'd touch on all three.
Would like to protest Stealth Rock on the hazard set and suggest Spikes instead. 25W is shaping up to be a very good Pokemon, but Stealth Rock along with its longevity allow it many potential ways to punish what are supposed to be its checks and counters: strong Flying types. Sticky Web I like, Spikes or Toxic Spikes I like. But Stealth Rock is just too good, too splashable, and too damaging to our C+C to be the preferable damage hazard on 25w.
C+C directly affected by SR: Tomohawk, Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Gyarados, Pelipper, Mollux. Although several of these Pokemon can Defog or Rapid Spin (and Tomo isn't actually weak to SR, just neutral), 25W should not have such easy access to a move that chips them for 25% damage, especially because Ice Beam is super-effective against half of them. Although Spikestacking is more effective against most of the rest of the list, that requires two or more turns and with this set of Pokemon set more free to spin/defog, I feel its a wash that trends toward the side of balance.
On Trick Room: Because you can stop Trick Room by using Trick Room during Trick Room, and 25w is faster than most abusers of Trick Room and therefore not that great an abuser of it, ironically it might actually become the best anti-Trick Room Pokemon by giving it Trick Room. It resists MegaMaw's Iron Head, resists Mega Camels Earth Power (and has Aqua Jet approved on the offensive end of things anyway). If you switch 25w into Fidget, you basically laugh because you don't care about Poison, you resist Ground, U-turn does less than Poison Heal recovers, and you can just Trick Room immediately and remove the effect. Effectively that makes Trick Room an anti-Trick Room tech on 25w. I Support Trick Room.
Stealth Rock is fine on Water CAP. Stealth Rock is such a ubiquitous move, that its basically mandatory in most calculations. An attack that common will always have play on any competent team - If CAPw is not the Pokemon setting SR, another Pokemon most certainly will. And thanks to said SR functions, a Flying type switching in before SR is set is not even affected. It does not help that most flying types mentioned are usually Hazard Removers that place significant pressure on CAPw anyways. SR is a great way of giving CAPw utility that is not currently being done by any other Water type, as Bulky water Pokemon that cannot provide meaningful utility to a team often are not viable (see: pre Update Argh, SM Tapu Fini, Alomomola, Slowbro(king) on non TR). For that reason, I am also against Spikes, as that pushes it into direct competition with Arghonaut, a Pokemon that not only is already a fierce rival of CAPw and competes for its slot, but sets Spikes better thanks to access to Recover.
Personally, I think Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes fit the concept better than other hazards. Unlike other hazards, they're stackable with themselves, meaning they benefit more from Poison Heal as the longevity helps get multiple layers up.
Personally, I think Spikes and/or Toxic Spikes fit the concept better than other hazards. Unlike other hazards, they're stackable with themselves, meaning they benefit more from Poison Heal as the longevity helps get multiple layers up.
Toxic Spike isn't really useful when things like Crucibelle and Fidgit can just switch in and absorb it when 25w is gone, also most things like Caw, Kit, Lando-T, other flyers or steel types aren't affected by this. Even Tomohawk can simply just switch in without the fear of Spikes and rapid spin on us
I'll give a quick opinion on the moves that have been discussed so far and not approved yet.
Trick Room: I'm not against it. I think 25w's typing synergizes beautifully with the overall Trick Room build. As Deck Knight said, it can also function as an anti-Trick Room tech. I do not think there's enough reasoning for this move to be banned besides the fact that Trick Room is already good in the meta. So, I'm in favor of Trick Room.
Hazards: I do not like any hazards besides Sticky Web on 25w. It's inability to pressure common removers like Tornadus-Therian and Tomohawk makes it not the ideal Stealth Rock (even though it was already allowed) or Toxic Spikes setupper. About Spikes, I'd rather not have 25w compete with Arghonaut for the spot of bulky-water with Spikes support. Overall, I'm against Toxic Spikes and Spikes.
Taunt: I will advocate for this move one more time. I think it synergizes beautifully with 25w and explore trapping in a way the already-existing trappers (Heatran and Pajantom) can't. Heatran abusing Magma Storm + high Special Attack/Taunt and Pajantom abusing Spirit Shackle + high Attack. 25w, on the other hand, would utility a passive trapping role.
For those who say it will completely mess with our threatlist, from our checks and counters list, only these pokemon would be effectively affected by the used of Trap + Taunt:
Ferrothorn;
Jumbao, although offensive sets can break through us with ease;
Mollux;
Gastrodon;
Toxapex;
The rest of the threalist can either KO us before we can stall them out (Tapu Koko) or utilize moves such as a fast Taunt of their own (Tapu Fini), by phazing us out (Arghonaut's Circle Throw) or removing Spider Web by using Rapid Spin (Tomohawk).
I do not think this will be an overpowered role, so I'm in favor of it. If anyone has any questions, I will gladly answers them and show the calculations I've made for this set.
Disable and Spite: at first, I was in favor of it. Now I'm not sure. If it's in conjunction with Taunt, I'm against it.
Yh Taunt is the only disruption attack (or Encore if your feeling cheeky) that I can approve of. Disable, Spite and the like seems really bad on a potential trapper like CAPw
Thoughts on the moves Knock Off, Pain Split (if CAP Doubles becomes a thing even Rage Powder and Muddy Water) and Soak? The last one expecially could be very usable (and maybe too much) for the Trapper set, whereas Knock Off doesn't hit any of our C+C supereffectively besides Necturna and Pajantom, giving CAP25w a lot of added utility if rocks aren't run. Pain Split on the other hand could be another option over Protect or Baneful Bunker which lets us 1vs1 stuff Chansey more easily while not being a 50% recovery move.
I just want to say we need to close the door to haze/phaze for W - if this Pokemon can't be broken by hitting it with Toxic, has double leftovers recovery, and access to Protect++, it has no business with setup sweeper control, especially with readily-available Wish passing in the metagame. This means Haze, Whirlwind and friends, and Clear Smog should not be allowed.
Sorry for the delay everyone, I've been busy irl but that's not much of an excuse to spend three days on a closing post. Moving forward I'll make sure to prepare these things beforehand. Onto the topic at hand, this is our closing post for 25w's movesets. In this post I'll provide feedback not only on the last 48 hours of discussion, but also touch upon various movesets that were brought up and dead ended in discussion. The reason for doing so is to address any competitive concerns with these movesets in this stage rather than push them off to the movepool stage. I've also included the final list of movesets and disallowed moves which will be updated to the second post once I get movepool up.
Feedback:
Name: Trick Room Setter
Move 1: Ice Beam / Scald
Move 2: Leech Life / Scald / U-Turn
Move 3: Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Trick Room
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 72 Def / 184 SpA
Nature: Relaxed (+Def -Spe)
Approved. Trick Room saw support over the last couple days of discussion, which is enough for me to feel confident approving the set. The set itself is focused on giving Trick Room a bulky setter that can beat Ground- and Dark-types, which is a currently unoccupied niche 25w can fill. Poison Heal comes into play for this set by allowing 25w to avoid spending turns healing for effective recovery.
Name: PP Stall(breaker)
Move 1: Whirlpool / Spider Web
Move 2: Taunt
Move 3: Baneful Bunker / Spiky Shield
Move 4: Substitute / Scald / Spike / Disable / Ice Beam
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 248 HP / 180 Def / 80 Spe
Nature: Timid (+Spe, -Atk)
Unapproved. While Taunt trapping has seen some support in the thread, I feel obligated to disallow the move for balance reasons. The ability to completey shut down a number of Pokemon on our checklist in addition to most common walls makes it hard to approve this set. Spite will be disallowed because it allows 25w to PP stall defensive Pokemon. Disable will be disallowed for allowing 25w to shut down a variety of strategies to break it, which extends to offensive Pokemon as well that rely on a strong STAB or coverage move to break 25w.
On Spikes and Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock: I chose to respect the earlier decision to approve Stealth Rock over Spikes and Toxic Spices. I think most could agree with me that having access to every entry hazard on 25w would be giving too many options on what could very well be a great Pokemon. As such, it did come down to Stealth Rock versus the respective spike stacking hazards. Of this, Stealth Rock had the strongest argument presented for it, as it best worked around 25w's weakness to common hazard removers. Stealth Rock also has less compitition among bulky waters, which further supports the arguments for it.
On boosting moves: I've decided to ban Bulk Up, Coil, and Calm Mind. While they were discussed to some extent early in the thread, they haven't been mentioned recently. Since its unclear how balanced they would be and there were concerns with both Bulk Up and Calm Mind allowing 25w to beat some checks, we're going to disallow them. Swords Dance is the alternative set up option we've gone with that doesn't allow 25w to boost itself outside of the ability for Pokemon to check it offensively.
Name: Sticky Web
Move 1: Sticky Web
Move 2: U-Turn / Toxic
Move 3: Protect
Move 4: Scald
Ability: Poison Heal
Item: Toxic Orb
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Nature: Careful / Calm
The following list of moves is comprised of every move from the approved movesets. This list will constitute the bulk of our mandated moves for the movepool stage.
Sticky Web, U-turn, Toxic, Protect, Baneful Bunker, Spiky Shield, Scald, Liquidation, Psycho Shift, Infestation, Swords Dance, Aqua Jet, Leech Life, Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, Ice Beam, Trick Room
The following list of moves are disallowed and will not be available for use in the movepool stages.
Recover and variants, Moonlight, Morning Sun, Synthesis, Shore Up, Wish, Perish Song, Lunge, Taunt, Spite, Disable, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Coil
On approved and disallowed moves: I've only listed moves that have come up over the course of discussion.I'll explain how we handle unlisted moves promptly in the movepool thread.
Now all that's left to do is wait for our TL reachzero to submit his final judgement on the result of this thread.
I am going to use my -1 on Baneful Bunker. It is overkill conceptually to have Baneful Bunker and Spiky Shield together, and Baneful Bunker interferes with Toxic and Scald (both moves likely to be used) in ways I do not like. In addition, Baneful Bunker is exclusive to Toxapex, which in my opinion is bad for optics when compared to the more widely distributed Spiky Shield. Otherwise, approved!
