CAP 27 - Part 3 - Threats Discussion

[snake]

Here's where we make our preliminary list of Pokemon we want CAP27 to beat and and Pokemon we want to beat CAP27! Per the the typing polls, Fire / Dragon will be CAP27's chosen typing! Be sure to follow to read Jho's post and discussion points very closely.

In this stage, we will try to analyze which Pokemon sets could threaten or be threatened by us. Based on our typing and concept we will also decide which specific threats we should focus on later stages, and which ones should be mostly left alone. Then, the Topic Leader will organize them into a list, following this basic format:

• Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.
• Pressure: The list of Pokemon that might threaten us, but should not be able to switch in easily. They should not be able to check us easily.
• Checks and Counters: The list of Pokemon should, in some way, threaten us. This might mean that they will probably be able to beat us 1v1, or at least severely cripple us. Certain Pokemon, in particular Revenge Killers might be included both in here and in Pressure, because once they switch in, they should be able to check us.

This threatlist should serve as a guideline for the rest of the project. However, this is not set in stone, and might change later if the Topic Leadership Team deems it necessary.

The following is a set of questions that we should try to answer during this discussion:

• Going specifically by typing, what Pokemon found in the CAP metagame will be able to comfortably give this project trouble?
• What Pokemon will be major threats to this project right off the bat?
• What Pokemon have the potential to become counters?
• What Pokemon may end up as threats, but must be contained or dealt with per the concept?
• Will the concept succeed with this list of threats?
• Is this list of threats acceptable for the project?
• What Pokemon will be threatened by the CAP based off of typing?
• Are these Pokemon targets that we want CAP to hit?
• Will these targets be "unavoidable" to threaten based solely on the typing?
• What direction must the project go in now that a set list of basic threats has been identified?
• What must be done in order to make these threats "wanted counters" or these threats be eliminated from counter discussion?
• Are there any Pokemon that we want to completely counter?

No individual post has to answer every question.

Guidelines:
1) Pay close attention to the Topic Leader during this discussion. Their job is to keep us focused and to bring insight.
2) Do not poll jump. Poll jumping is a serious offense in these threads, and you can get infracted for it. Poll jumping is when you discuss something that should be discussed in the future, like specifying a CAP's stats or typing. You're allowed to hint at such things to conclude a point or to provide an example, but do not centralize your post on a poll jump. Poll jumping hurts the focus of early threads and can cause us to go off on a tangent. If you're not sure if a particular argument is poll jumping or not, err on the side of caution and don't post it.
3) Refer to Pokemon by specific sets. This way we can clearly identify which specific sets we should be focusing on, and what specific characteristics makes us threaten or threatened by them. Adding complete movesets, EV spreads and Natures is recommended, but not mandatory.
4) Assume that Stealth Rock in on both sides of the field, unless otherwise specified. This can be changed by the Topic Leader during the discussion.
4) This are the exact definitions of check and counter that we will be working with:

-Pokémon A checks a Pokémon B set if, when Pokémon A is given a free switch into that Pokémon B set, Pokémon A can win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.
-Pokémon A counters a Pokémon B set if Pokémon A can manually switch into that Pokémon B set, and still win every time, even under the worst case scenario, without factoring in hax.

------------------

CAP 27 so far

 

[Jho]

Alright, welcome to the Threats stage - one of my personal favorites. Thanks to the excellent discussion that took place during the typing stage, we've got ourselves a Fire/Dragon typing to work with going forward. With that being said, here is some stuff I want to note before we dive into it.

Switch-in: This will be the most important aspect of this thread I imagine. We identified that CAP27 will need many opportunities to come in in order to support its teammates effectively so ensuring that our Switch-in list is both the correct size and contains a good amount of relevant Pokemon is key.

Pressure: This is the part that I wish to look at a little differently due to our concept. On top of pressured Pokemon being scared of switching directly into an attack, this section should also contain Pokemon that are scared to switch in directly in fear of being crippled in some way. This list will be pretty important too as we need to ensure we have a good amount of both offensive and defensive counterplay.

Checks and Counters: A pretty straightforward one; which Pokemon can switch into us safely and beat us 1v1. Some things to note with this category is that what CAP27 forces in is important as its what its teammates will look to take advantage of. Because of this, I would like to ensure that this list is on the larger side, so that counterplay is varied enough to ensure that CAP27 is supporting its teammates (in this case by giving them switch in opportunities) and not breaking down its few counters itself.

With the above in mind, as well as the questions in the OP, I'd like to start this thread off by looking at the Switch-In category.

 

[snake]

Switch-in: This will be the most important aspect of this thread I imagine. We identified that CAP27 will need many opportunities to come in in order to support its teammates effectively so ensuring that our Switch-in list is both the correct size and contains a good amount of relevant Pokemon is key.

Alrighty let's look at Fire / Dragon.

Resistances: Bug, Electric, Fire, Grass, Steel

Given this, I'd like to make the following list that we should definitely have on our switch-ins list:

• Mollux: CAP27 4x resists its Lava Plume and is immune to burns. We should ideally destroy Mollux with this typing.
• Corviknight: A Fire-type should ideally have a really good matchup with Corviknight.
• Rotom-H: Although Toxic could be an issue, CAP27 resists Volt Switch and can tank Overheat easily.
• Rotom-M: It's in the same boat as Rotom-H.
• Cinderace: CAP27 resists Pyro Ball pretty handily and doesn't take much damage from U-turn.
• Clefable: I'm going to be bold here: I really don't want CAP27 to be complete setup bait for Calm Mind Clefable. It's a Dragon-type that isn't weak to Moonblast, so CAP27 can potentially tank unboosted Moonblasts. We also aren’t weak to any coverage move Clefable commonly runs, which is very useful.

Here's a list I considered for my initial list but I didn't want to put on quite yet. More likely that all of these will end up on the pressure list at the very least, but I wanted to be clear with my thought process.

• Jumbao: Hits CAP27 neutrally with Moonblast but weak to Fire STAB. Also much stronger than Clefable.
• Ferrothorn: CAP27 switches in rather effortlessly if not for it always running Knock Off, which removes the Heavy-Duty Boots CAP27 is likely to wear.
• Zeraora: CAP27 resists Plasma Fists and Grass Knot, but Close Combat and Play Rough are neutral. Also a Knock Off user.
• Necturna: CAP27 can potentially check Necturna if +2 Ghost-type STAB doesn't KO from a good range.
• Darmanitan: CAP27 resists Flare Blitz but Earthquake destroys it back.

I feel like the pressure list will be much larger than the switch-ins list due to the typing's good STAB coverage. There's a lot that Fire / Dragon hits super effectively but doesn't necessarily switch into easily (Equilibra/Excadrill, other Dragons, etc.).

 

[Mx]

Going to be brief because it's already too late. Given the nature of this concept, I believe is important to divide our switch ins into two categories:

-Switch in and threaten: We can switch in and immediately threaten them out with our offensive moves. Of course, we would also be able to use support moves while they switch out.
-Switch in and support: Against these, we can take their moves but don't have a quick way to force them out. However, we can take advantage of them with our support moves, either crippling them with status/item manipulation or helping our team by setting/removing hazards, passing Wishes, etc.

I think having a good equilibrium between these two categories is one of the most important factors to succeed in our concept. Too many threats that we can directly threaten and CAP 27 risks turning into a wallbreaker, too many threats we can only use support moves on and we'll lack the offensive presence that the concept requires.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Sleep deprivation thoughts but I agree with snake's initial switch in list as I feel we can do the former of what Mx has categorized. In the ideal scenario, we should absolutely be able to sit on most Fire-types and do pretty much whatever we want. I think that typing is perfect for that and CAP's typing offers the perfect opportunity to do so.

I'ma touch briefly on C&C but considering how solid its offensive coverage is with just its STABs a lot of it won't exactly come down to resists to both (because they don't exist) but instead the ability to take hits from it and throw enough power behind attacks to knock out CAP. With that in mind, I think our largest set of checks and counters should fall into bulky Rock- and Ground-types. I will refrain from going too deep into Water-types but I think because they now go neutral against us it becomes much more similar to slapping each other until the other dies, like with Rotom-W. Rock and Ground types are perfect because they all have the right moves to properly dispatch CAP without Dragon-type trappings. I'm feeling that stuff like Seismitoad, Gastrodon, Hippowdon, Terrakion, and Colossoil should be eating us for days (give or take a few of these dependent on stat biases) while faster stuff like Stratagem falls into a heavy pressure matchup since it certainly kills but has the defenses of a soggy biscuit.

Aight sleeping now, see you in 8 hours when I realized I sounded completely incoherent in this.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

Since we have a fire/dragon typing, its x4 resistant to fire and grass, resists Bug, Electric, and Steel.
But its weak to Dragon, Ground, and Rock.
Btw, for all of this Im assuming CAP 27 has no ability right now to avoid poll-jumping.

Switch ins:

With an immunity to burn and a x4 resistant to fire, this looks like a good switch in on

With resistance to electric and bug, you can switch-in on U-Turns or Volt-Switches. This really stands out against because based on typing alone, CAP 27 should do great against it assuming Heat doesn't run Toxic.

With a resistance to steel, you could potentially have something to sponge Equal's Doom Desire.

I get where Snake is coming from not wanting this CAP to be set up bait for but its easier said than done. You have a potentially good matchup against the CM variant, but support sets could run Knock Off (assuming CAP 27 usually runs boots thats a concern) or status it with T wave or Toxic.

Kind of like Gen 7 LO set, CAP 27 should have good switch ins opportunities on defensive steel types like and

Also, Drought would be a good switch in because its a dragon not weak to fairy, x4 resists grass, and the sun powers up Fire STABS.

 

[Amamama]

Although not as popular, unboosted Caribolt and Cinderace Are mons that should be added to switch in opportunities
cinderace has attacking options that can hurt us in high jump kick, gunk shot and less so sucker punch and zen headbutt, but it rarely runs one of those moves, while pyro ball and uturn get eaten by our typing.
It’s similar with caribolt, which can’t hit Cap 27 hard if unboosted and normally can’t afford to run knock off, that could cripple us.
Although at +2 it hits for a considerable amount of damage, so that killing it back with eg a flare blitz might bring Cap27 in range of knocking itself out from recoil.

Edit: added some more reasoning

 

[MrPanda]

When it comes to underdogs, I think Pyroak would be a reasonable check for CAP27. Pyroak has great def stats and could certainly take some hits (depending on what we are going to make available in the movepool of 27). Also, the combination of EP + Toxic + Synthesis would wear it out relatively quick, while also mitigating the damage done by 27 (again, depending on what we will give it access to CAP27).

 

[theotherguytm]

Full VR highlighted

Key
Green for Switch-in
Purple for Pressure
Red for Check/Counter
Italics for Special Considerations (see below for more detail)
SS CAP Viability Rankings

(In alphabetical order)

S Rank:

S Rank
Clefable
Corviknight
Mollux

A Rank:

A+ Rank
Aegislash
Dragapult
Equilibra
Hydreigon

A Rank
Kyurem
Mandibuzz
Rotom-Heat
Seismitoad
Syclant
Terrakion
Tomohawk
Zeraora

A- Rank
Arghonaut
Colossoil
Conkeldurr
Excadrill
Ferrothorn
Jumbao
Toxapex

B Rank:

B+ Rank
Aurumoth
Hippowdon
Jirachi
Kerfluffle
Kommo-o
Necturna
Reuniclus
Rotom-Mow
Stratagem

B Rank
Bisharp
Caribolt
( Ditto)
Dracovish
Fidgit
Gastrodon
Gengar
Keldeo
Mamoswine
Naviathan (with Heatproof)
Pyroak
Pajantom
Sylveon
Tyranitar

B- Rank
Cinderace
Cyclohm
Grimmsnarl
Gyarados
Hatterene
Obstagoon
Pelipper
Primarina
Revenankh
Rotom-Wash
Sigilyph

C Rank:

C+ Rank
Barraskewda
Hawlucha
Jellicent
:krillowatt: Krilowatt
Torkoal
Venusaur

C Rank
Cawmodore
Crawdaunt
Darmanitan
Dracozolt
Kitsunoh
Mew
Mimikyu
Ninetales-Alola
Ribombee
Smokomodo
Snorlax
Toxtricity
Xatu

The special cases

Clefable, Sylveon and Hatterene

First, the big one. Having Dragon typing makes Fairies much harder to switch-in on. So with the natural firepower the latter two possess, they are realistically not safe for us. But Clef has less raw power. So this is where I get infracted for poll jumping... Point being, it's achievable if we want.

Mollux

Yes, Lava Plume is a safe switch-in. But Sludge Bomb could cause us serious problems, not even to mention the Poison chance. So this also depends on stats.

Aegislash

Let's be real, nothing is a safe switch-in to this thing. We can make a couple of sets safe, but no chance we beat all of them.

Syclant and Krillowatt

Both usually carry Ground coverage and can hit us neutrality with a STAB.

Aurumoth and Necturna

Every switch-in to these is set-dependent, but we should be mostly fine.

Bisharp

Looks like a switch-in on paper, but hits incredibly hard and always carries Knock Off, which we want to avoid.

Darmanitan

While we take its STAB and U-turn fine, we hate its EdgeQuake coverage.

Anything you think I missed?

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

Anything you think I missed?

Nope. Nothing off the top of my head. Your post is awesome. Do have some minor points I want to bring up.

I agree that Clef is a special case. Yes, fire/drag is neutral to Moonblast and resists offensive Clef's usual coverage (except Psychic but Moonblast hits harder than Psychic). Its actually the support set I'm more cautious about because Clef could use Knock Off or a status move, immune to dragon, and doesn't care about status due to Magic Guard.

But I don't think Hatt or Slyveon are. Yes as fairy types they can switch on dragon pressure, but I can't think of anything of how they threaten CAP 27 in return outside of neutral fairy moves, Slyveon controlling SpA with Mystical Fire or Hatt setting Trick Room.

I think Bisharp is a pain to switch in on. The combo of STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch not only removes a held item, but can even kill. To be fair, Bisharp has a tough time switching in on the fire moves.

I actually think Kirllowat is a check? Making some assumptions, but it usually has Magic Guard for an ability and runs Earth Power. With a resist to fire, burn doesn't mean anything to it, solid bulk to likely take a Dragon move, and EP, maybe Krillowat is a check? There is a lot of conditions surrounding this case, but its worth considering.

 

[theotherguytm]

I agree that Clef is a special case. Yes, fire/drag is neutral to Moonblast and resists offensive Clef's usual coverage (except Psychic but Moonblast hits harder than Psychic). Its actually the support set I'm more cautious about because Clef could use Knock Off or a status move, immune to dragon, and doesn't care about status due to Magic Guard.

We just have to hit hard enough off our Fire STAB to force Clef out. And don't worry, I'm already cooking up ideas to get around those problems.

But I don't think Hatt or Slyveon are. Yes as fairy types they can switch on dragon pressure, but I can't think of anything of how they threaten CAP 27 in return outside of neutral fairy moves, Slyveon controlling SpA with Mystical Fire or Hatt setting Trick Room.

Basically, their innate firepower is much higher. An uninvested Pixilate Hyper Voice is still going to cause us a lot of damage. And Hatt generally has a high enough SpA that we take tons from its neutral moves, and in both case, tons more from a Calm Mind boosted hit.

I think Bisharp is a pain to switch in on. The combo of STAB Knock Off and Sucker Punch not only removes a held item, but can even kill. To be fair, Bisharp has a tough time switching in on the fire moves.

Yeah, that's why I listed it as pressure. On paper it should be a switch-in, in practice it hits too hard.

actually think Kirllowat is a check? Making some assumptions, but it usually has Magic Guard for an ability and runs Earth Power. With a resist to fire, burn doesn't mean anything to it, solid bulk to likely take a Dragon move, and EP, maybe Krillowat is a check? There is a lot of conditions surrounding this case, but its worth considering.

Thank you, corrected.
On another note, it is annoying that our Dragon typing basically lets the whole of A+ bar Aegi, and Kyurem pressure us. Not being able to switch into Kyurem is a blow.

 

[Atha]

Switch-in and threaten list :

Nothing to say here, there is litterally no way 27 isn't a hard check to Corviknight, which is a very good thing.

Mollux is a pretty tough one. My opinion is that 27 should need a lot of offensive investment in order to 2hko it with a Dragon stab. I think 27 shouldn't be able to ohko Mollux (aka ground coverage).

Finally a good Zeraora check ? I'm down for it.

Same as Corviknight.

Same.

27 should have enough bulk to tank body press, although it should have a hard time taking an earthquake.

, and 27 resists any move they can throw. It should be strong enough to force them out in most cases. Being poisoned will obviously be a threat.

Offensive moonblast should be troublesome for 27, but it should easily check defensive Jumbao and offensive if it was able to come in on a grass move.




There are a lot of Pokemon that 27 should be able to come in on comfortably and force them out once or twice, but not multiple times :

(this will heavily depend on the spreads and sets used)
(depends on the set obviously)
(this requires a lot of speed, and is not absolutely needed)
(exact same point)


(specs keld will most likely 2hko, but not the other sets)


Switch-in and support list :

I get Mx's point, you don't want Clef to calm mind on your face. However it would be a bit too much to be able to 2hko the right Clef set. 27 shouldn't 2hko def Clef with a physical move / 2hko spdef Clef with a special move.

Mandibuzz is passive, so this is inevitable.

27 should definetly be comfortable against Arghonaut, although eq will be somewhat threatening.



No threat of being burned, so yeah.


theotherguytm With all my respect, I think you didn't pay attention to Jho's post. We need to speak about the Switch-in only.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I agree that the Rotom forms should be solid switch-ins for us. The best thing they should be able to do it Volt-Switch out on us or Trick us a Choice Scarf.

I get where Snake is coming from not wanting this CAP to be set up bait for but its easier said than done. You have a potentially good matchup against the CM variant, but support sets could run Knock Off (assuming CAP 27 usually runs boots thats a concern) or status it with T wave or Toxic.

I agree. I think it is likely that CAP 27, like many supports, could end up as set-up bait for Clefable. I don't think a neutrality to Moonblast is enough to overcome the fact that our supportive nature means we are unlikely to be able to 2HKO it. However, we will have opportunities during the movepool stage to remedy this problem and turn Clefable into a Pressure. I just don't see it as ever being a Switch-in.

When it comes to underdogs, I think Pyroak would be a reasonable check for CAP27. Pyroak has great def stats and could certainly take some hits (depending on what we are going to make available in the movepool of 27). Also, the combination of EP + Toxic + Synthesis would wear it out relatively quick, while also mitigating the damage done by 27 (again, depending on what we will give it access to CAP27).

I'm not sure I see a situation where CAP 27's offensive stats are so low that it can't take advantage of its simple STAB advantage over Pyroak. I could potentially see it having a Pressure relationship with Pyroak, but I don't see Pyroak being a real check.

 

[MrPanda]

I'm not sure I see a situation where CAP 27's offensive stats are so low that it can't take advantage of its simple STAB advantage over Pyroak. I could potentially see it having a Pressure relationship with Pyroak, but I don't see Pyroak being a real check.

Yeah, it's fair. I think my liking for Pyroak went up a bit and I ended up rushing. Sorry.

Well, back to what matters, I agree with most of what was said here. Rotom-forms should be always a free switchin for CAP27 (though a possible Toxic or Thunder Wave could cripple it). The same way, I believe that we should foment the capacity of 27 to switchin on things like Clef, Bao and Zeraora. Lastly, Knock Off seems to be the biggest bad guy here, as it prevent 27 to deal with things that it would do otherwise. I don't know how we are supposed to do this, but would be very helpful if we can reduce the impact of Knock Off somehow.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I think theotherguytm has pretty much captured the relationships with the VR Pokemon. One quick thing I'd mention is that I don't think Syclant is a guaranteed switch in because of Earthquake. Even Icicle Crash will probably do a fair bit since its neutral.

I agree that CAP 27 should be beating Mollux, and also that it should do so ideally without Ground coverage as the combination of Fire/Dragon/Ground would probably just turn CAP 27 into a wallbreaker.

 

[Yay61]

I’m unsure whether many of the more bulky pokemon mentioned like Clefable, Toxapex and Mandibuzz should be classed as switchin, because at this stage it is difficult to tell how CAP 27 will act as a support. If it gets the power to break through these pokemon it can no doubt act as a highly effective wall breaker as even others such as hippowdon that should force it out would take big damage from its stabs. The other option for dealing with these pokemon is switching in to use our utility capabilities, however I find this questionable also. If CAP 27 can abuse these pokemon to generate an advantage and momentum shift then that would be fine. But I fear that if it’s support capabilities were limited to stuff like knock off, rocks and status spreading it would be a neutral matchup where neither pokemon has a clear advantage, especially as these defensive pokemon have plenty of support options they can use themselves. So I think it is important to consider how CAP 27 will interact with defensive pokemon as necessitating threatening them seems to either mandate overly high power or limit the kind of support that this pokemon could provide.

For the rest of the list I’d just echo what’s already been said about the rotom forms, Mollux and Corviknight. I still do think we should be wary here due to how ubiquitous knock and toxic are and CAP 27 from this point could easily be very weak to both of these. While this could be an effective form of counterplay I think to be a reliable pokemon it must be able to limit this weakness in some form or else it will struggle against most of these pokemon.

 

[theotherguytm]

Just a few points.
Firstly, to be totally clear, I didn't intend my list to be comprehensive or the be-all-and-end-all (though I think most people have understood that). I just intended it to be a basic reference point. I don't claim to understand the intricacies of the CAP metagame, so if you see anything there that needs discussion, or think of something else entirely, please don't hesitate to bring it up. It does seem to have bought up some good discussion though so far, so I'm happy with that.

One quick thing I'd mention is that I don't think Syclant is a guaranteed switch in because of Earthquake. Even Icicle Crash will probably do a fair bit since its neutral.

Ok, corrected. Mentioned it and Krill under special cases.

(depends on the set obviously)
(this requires a lot of speed, and is not absolutely needed)
(exact same point)

If any of these are safe switch-ins for a Dragon, I will be very scared. Kommo always carries EQ or a Dragon STAB, so is almost certainly not safe either.

Rotom-forms should be always a free switchin for CAP27 (though a possible Toxic or Thunder Wave could cripple it).

Wash's Hydro Pump could do us some serious damage, but it often forgoes it these days. So mostly fine, with the caveat that certain Wash sets hit us hard.
I agree with everything else here. And yes, I have ideas to remedy our weaknesses.

 

[Atha]

If any of these are safe switch-ins for a Dragon, I will be very scared. Kommo always carries EQ or a Dragon STAB, so is almost certainly not safe either.

You might have missed this :

This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.

You just predict anything but earthquake (rocks, body press) and come in decently safely (as defensive Kommo eq will probably do from 40% to 60% damage). Also Kommo-o never ever has a dragon stab move, unless it's clangorous soul (which is not a good set).

As for Dragapult, Kyurem and Hydreigon, I obviously didn't mean that 27 should be safe switch to them. I said that it should be able to come in once or twice (more once than twice ngl) on a Kyurem Ice beam, a Hydreigon Dark pulse, a Dragapult Hex/Shadow ball/Will-o-wisp, which are by far their most commonly used moves.

 

[RK8N]

I’d like to first apologise in advance because I won’t be of very much help here. I’m not familiar with the metagame and what mons are better than others cos I haven’t played in some time.


Having said that, there is one Pokémon that (to my knowledge) has not been discussed yet: Cinderace.


If we are aiming for CAP27 to be a hazard setter or Will-O-Wisp spreader, Cinderace’s Fire typing, blazing speed (no pun intended) and access to Court Change become very problematic. It also has access to U-Turn, enabling it to pivot out, and High Jump Kick to force CAP27 out. I don’t know if this is that big of a problem at this stage in the process, but at the moment this is honestly the most useful thing I can contribute. Hopefully once I’ve done my research I’ll have more to say, but for now that’s my two cents.

 

[theotherguytm]

Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.

You just predict anything but earthquake (rocks, body press) and come in decently safely (as defensive Kommo eq will probably do from 40% to 60% damage). Also Kommo-o never ever has a dragon stab move, unless it's clangorous soul (which is not a good set).

I agree Clang is a bad set, but it's the only one that doesn't run EQ. Hence it has a move to prevent us coming in multiple times on each of its sets. I think we're looking for safe, repeatable switch-ins we can abuse throughout a game at this point, and something that can deplete at least half of our health on the switch, regardless of set, is not a safe switch-in.

As for Dragapult, Kyurem and Hydreigon, I obviously didn't mean that 27 should be safe switch to them. I said that it should be able to come in once or twice (more once than twice ngl) on a Kyurem Ice beam, a Hydreigon Dark pulse, a Dragapult Hex/Shadow ball/Will-o-wisp

Agree with this, and I think Kommo falls under the same catagory. Though being neutral to Ice Beam makes this a hard job.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 252-297 (96.5 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Turtonator has 60/85 bulk, for reference, and usually holds Boots.
(Also 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 336-396 (128.7 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

If we are aiming for CAP27 to be a hazard setter or Will-O-Wisp spreader, Cinderace’s Fire typing, blazing speed (no pun intended) and access to Court Change become very problematic. It also has access to U-Turn, enabling it to pivot out, and High Jump Kick to force CAP27 out. I don’t know if this is that big of a problem at this stage in the process, but at the moment this is honestly the most useful thing I can contribute. Hopefully once I’ve done my research I’ll have more to say, but for now that’s my two cents.

We haven't decided what we're doing yet with it, but rest assured that a Fire/Dragon that takes quarter damage from Cinderace's STAB has nothing to fear from a pure Fire mon that doesn't get EdgeQuake.

 

[Atha]

I agree Clang is a bad set, but it's the only one that doesn't run EQ. Hence it has a move to prevent us coming in multiple times on each of its sets. I think we're looking for safe, repeatable switch-ins we can abuse throughout a game at this point, and something that can deplete at least half of our health on the switch, regardless of set, is not a safe switch-in.
Agree with this, and I think Kommo falls under the same catagory. Though being neutral to Ice Beam makes this a hard job.
252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 252-297 (96.5 - 113.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
Turtonator has 60/85 bulk, for reference, and usually holds Boots.
(Also 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Turtonator: 336-396 (128.7 - 151.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO)

Sorry for making this discussion last longer than it should. I'll not post anything else on this specific topic.
However I disagree once again with what you say. When switching against a seemingly defensive Pokemon, you always risk getting hit by an attack. For example you said CAP27 should be a switch-in to Jumbao, Clefable, and Mollux. A life orb Clef Moonblast / life orb or scarf Jumbao Moonblast / Mollux sludge bomb that poisons you will cause as much damage as a Kommo-o earthquake. Switching safely multiple times on Jumbao or Mollux seems very compromised. When switching in, you predict, ie hope that your opponent hasn't clicked the move that hits you.

27 will most likely be able to switch multiple times on Kommo-o and scare it out, unless you play like a complete monkey, and it will be as unsafe as switching into Jumbao or Mollux (life orb Clef is less common but you get my point).

I can't see how you can put Kyurem, which ohkoes with the right prediction and does way more than half even if it doesn't predict, in the same category as Kommo-o, which will do somewhere around half even if it predicts.

CAP 27 should be a switch-in to Kommo-o, and I agree that it's at the very limit of the switch-in category.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

So 3am me was stupid and didn't see that we were only covering switch ins. Wew. So lets go more in depth in a few.

This is a surefire switch in. We are absolutely capable of sitting on this and we can obliterate it with most any Fire-type STAB.

Little trickier but I think regardless we come out on top thanks to being a 4x resist to Lava Plume. Stuff like Sludge Bomb can still hurt but its main stab is pretty easily blocked by us and with decent investment into attack we should be able to beat it alright. If we have offenses on the lower side tho may be a bit harder to maintain as switch and could fall into pressure.

I remain unconvinced about this one tbh. Yes, CAP is neutral to its Moonblast but Clef is quite fat and in not exactly sure how much in offense we would need to be able to break through it comfortably. Ideally we shouldn't have a losing matchup and I doubt we will but I am not sure if its really a straight switch-in or a strong pressure.

Easy Switch-in. Unless it starts running stuff like Toxic then it really can't do too much to CAP since both of its STABs are handily resisted and it can be KO'd before it gets enough Nasty Plots to break through.

Softer Switch-in, possibly pressure. We switch into PFists easy but coverage options like Play Rough and Knock could be very annoying, especially with removing our boots from the latter. What cements it for me as switch-in is the fear of being crippled, either through burn or item removal, because Zeraora gets a lot easier to get past if one of those is fulfilled.

Drought sets I think we win cause our Fire-type STAB will absolutely KO, but other sets can beat us just because Jumbao hits like a railgun with a Metang projectile with Moonblast, even neutrally. If we come in on a Solar Beam or whatever then we win but otherwise not sure if this is an actual switch-in. May just be a strong pressure idk.

Grass/Steel makes its super precarious for Ferro to stay in for any amount of time against us, although Knock on the switch in or something similar could be annoying.

4x resist both Stabs and kill it back super easily. Guaranteed switch-in.

All horrid serene grace antics aside, we resist iron head and gives us enough time to KO. Biggest worry is a TWave on the way in, as that can lock us in a paraflinch death spiral pretty quick.

Others I disagree with.

This is a pressure matchup imo. If its running Body Press then it is a fat mon and can probably take a hit or two of Dragon Claw / Pulse and kill CAP with EQ. Biggest fear is the possibility of burn from us if we have it as that kills a lot of its attack power but I still am not sure its a switch-in.

I'm really not seeing this. It can hit us hard with EQ and with recovery it can support in our face. Sure we can burn it or whatever but it still has stuff like Knock and Spikes that will certainly annoy the hell out of CAP. Pressure.

I think our surefire ones are Corviknight, and the two Rotom forms mentioned (I still think was is pressure or just a neutral matchup because of Hydro being neutral), with further down being Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Zeraora, Drought Jumbao, and Mollux. I am still not convinced with Clefable though.

 

[theotherguytm]

My last post on this topic as well.

This is a pressure matchup imo. If its running Body Press then it is a fat mon and can probably take a hit or two of Dragon Claw / Pulse and kill CAP with EQ. Biggest fear is the possibility of burn from us if we have it as that kills a lot of its attack power but I still am not sure its a switch-in.

I 100% agree with this. What I feel is that it would be possible to make Kommo a switch-in, but then we would not be able to switch into the Fairies and remain within probable bulk limits. Unless we want to make Krillowatt 2.0, we'll probably have to choose, and I think it is much more important for this CAP to switch into the Fairies. (That Dragon typing is really being a pain now, but hopefully we'll take some pain now for rewards later.)

 

[Jho]

Yo some good discussion so far, it got a little convoluted there so we're going to move onto Pressure matchups for CAP27. Before that, though, I'm going to compile a preliminary list of Switch-ins from the discussion above that we can also discuss going forward:

Switch in: The list of Pokemon on which we should be able to have a easy time switching in and then forcing them out, more than once in a game. This doesn't mean that we should be able to come into any of their moves, just their most commonly used ones.

Switch-ins:
Debatable ones:

Mollux and Clefable can both put decent pressure onto CAP27 with Sludge Bomb and Moonblast respectively and can be difficult for us to force out, as per the definition of Switch-in in the OP, without specific coverage or high enough stats. I'm not confident putting these 2 into switch-ins without knowing these 2 factors.

Of course, some of these Pokemon may be able to beat or annoy CAP27, with things such as Toxic from Rotom-Heat, Knock Off from Ferrothorn and Zeraora, and Trick from Jirachi but for the most part, we should be able to switch into their attacks, tank it easily, and force them out. The only one that is strained in that regard would be vs Metronome Zeraora, or Bulk Up should we end up physically inclined. Again its dependant on stats but I think the leeway is a lot higher with checking Zeraora than it is with Clefable and Mollux.

I am quite happy with this list, feel free to comment on it, particularly interested in opinions on Mollux, Clefabale, and Zeraora going forward. However, for the most part, I would like us to move on to Pressure matchups.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

Pressure: This is the part that I wish to look at a little differently due to our concept. On top of pressured Pokemon being scared of switching directly into an attack, this section should also contain Pokemon that are scared to switch in directly in fear of being crippled in some way. This list will be pretty important too as we need to ensure we have a good amount of both offensive and defensive counterplay.

Part 1 for examining Pressure matchups is to look at pokemon who are scared to switch into an attack.

So...basically every steel type in the metagame.
Yes, certain steels like and can threaten CAP 27 with ground moves (for now), and they resist dragon, but they are afraid of STAB Fire Moves. That would also include :Ferrothron: and

is in a similar boat as the steels. Free switchin on the dragons but afraid of Fire moves.

A couple of dragons in the meta are in the reverse. They resist fire but fear Dragon moves.
Ex: and

Note that for these pressure matchups, its a 50/50. They either get a pretty safe switchin on a resist on one STAB, or get slammed by another STAB.

As for Part 2 which is going into Pokémon "that are scared to scared to switch in directly in fear of being crippled in some way", that's a really tough question to answer at this stage (Jho, post #24). Because the only way I cant think about that well is by knowing the CAP's movepool which Im not discussing because poll jumping. So for right now, confused on how to respond to this question. I guess what pokemon fear getting a burn?