CAP 27 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

[Pipotchi]

Im definitely liking No Competitive Ability, lets fully lean into Regenerator and not have to worry about the bluffing and other nonsense that a fringe secondary ability is going to add on top when itll see no use anyway. A lot of the above suggestions feel a bit unrelated to support or super weak. Stuff like Poison Touch, it seems okay (is this allowed for a secondary?), it could still tie into our given stats I think. But Im not desperate for it either.

For the record I dont like Defiant or Competitive despite them being strong/pro concept because you see Tomo on nearly every team and its definitely something that can activate every time (and removes it from our checklist for the physical sets since it can just ohko the tomo with +2 uninvested dracos), I know this stat setup is not geared to have boosts and I dont really like the idea of seeing this mon with +1/2 atk or +2 spa when its counter list is geared around its lacking damage output.

 

[Birkal]

I'll also jump on the No Competitive Ability train. I think we're all in agreement that Regenerator is insanely powerful. Healing without spending a moveslot or turn is just about the most valuable ability to have in competitive Pokemon. Add in a weakness to entry hazards, and CAP27 is going to always run Regenerator, without question. But just because a secondary ability would be overshadowed by this primary ability doesn't mean we should make the secondary viable competitively.

Any competitive ability we grant CAP27 will give it an even stronger niche to consider when teambuilding and fighting against it. Consider if we gave CAP27 Speed Boost hypothetically. Even though it wouldn't have much use for it over Regenerator thanks to its already great speed, that's just another thing you need to worry about when you see CAP27 in preview; it could be running a choiced set or some funky CAP movepool set that allows it lategame sweep. Speed Boost is obviously an extreme example, but I hope it helps to illustrate how any secondary ability you add will make CAP27 itself a greater threat. In the case of Poison Touch, if you allow CAP27 to poison some key mons on the switch-in, even though that's very niche compared to the strength of Regenerator, getting the wrong mon poisoned is a real problem to your opponent, and that will probably impact their decision in some form, no matter how small. This sort of logic could be applied to every competitive ability being suggested in this thread: they all provide at least some niche that will further complicate the relationship CAP27 has with the opponent's decision space. And that decision space, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the concept.

 

[quziel]

This sort of logic could be applied to every competitive ability being suggested in this thread: they all provide at least some niche that will further complicate the relationship CAP27 has with the opponent's decision space. And that decision space, in my opinion, has nothing to do with the concept.

I really do not buy this claim; if we were aiming to make the perfect offensive pivot I would agree more, but our aim is to create an offensive support. Uncertainty in the ability, while harmful as seen in the equilibra concept if it creates fully free turns, is not something that I view as inherently damaging to the concept, and in fact, can sometimes be beneficial. This is a bit of a side track, but the uncertainty between Fly-z and Rocky Helmet on Torn-T absolutely helped both sets to perform within a match, and absolutely was beneficial to Torn's ability to function as an offensive support.

The turns that we could generate with Volt Absorb are a one time thing, and I do not think they are anywhere near as punishing as those generated by Equilibra; we are taking a matchup where we check the opponent and instead "counter" them, whereas equilibra took matchups where it was checked by an opponent and turned it into matchups where it checked the opponent. As for Poison Touch I've spoken about it at length, but I think the ability to conditionally poison a switchin is not significantly stronger than the utility options we're likely to get anyways, and the ability to streamline a specific playstyle and reduce the moveslot burden absolutely is pro concept. Compare say Poison Tail / Fire Lash / Dragon Claw with Regen to Fire Lash / Dragon Claw with Poison Touch, where the Poison Touch playstyle both requires fewer moveslots and can streamline its playstyle to a far greater degree.

 

[flying moose]

I'm of the opinion that No Guard is superior to Poison Touch as the secondary ability. Don't get me wrong, I loved PT as an option in the last stage.The problem is, a Poison Touch set doesn't actually play very differently from its standard regenerator sets. It primarily uses the same physical attacks, just with the chance of poisoning them, at the expense of free healing. While the poison chance certainly does add pressure and improve matchups, it will never be chosen over the guaranteed useful effect of Regenerator when the teambuilding process is the same.

No Guard, by contrast, encourages you to build a set with different moves that would be less reliable (or not viable at all) on a Regenerator set. Unlocked options include reliable status and STAB moves (for both dragon and fire) with better power and/or side effects. This is a unique combination that will constitute a niche that is separate from Regen, while building on 27's offensive support capability.

I really don't understand the sentiment that the uncertainty from the small chance of a secondary set is going to be detrimental. Almost everyone thinks Regenerator will be the best choice the vast majority of the time. If Regenerator is so superior anyway, than can the small risk of a secondary ability really mess up the counter list that badly? A secondary ability of the types we're discussing will at best offer a niche set that can better respond to a tailored selection of counters while losing general capability. I don't see what's broken about that. Give the mon a second ability.

 

[KogaEliteFour]

I'm of the opinion that No Guard is superior to Poison Touch as the secondary ability. Don't get me wrong, I loved PT as an option in the last stage.The problem is, a Poison Touch set doesn't actually play very differently from its standard regenerator sets. It primarily uses the same physical attacks, just with the chance of poisoning them, at the expense of free healing. While the poison chance certainly does add pressure and improve matchups, it will never be chosen over the guaranteed useful effect of Regenerator when the teambuilding process is the same.

No Guard, by contrast, encourages you to build a set with different moves that would be less reliable (or not viable at all) on a Regenerator set. Unlocked options include reliable status and STAB moves (for both dragon and fire) with better power and/or side effects. This is a unique combination that will constitute a niche that is separate from Regen, while building on 27's offensive support capability.

I really don't understand the sentiment that the uncertainty from the small chance of a secondary set is going to be detrimental. Almost everyone thinks Regenerator will be the best choice the vast majority of the time. If Regenerator is so superior anyway, than can the small risk of a secondary ability really mess up the counter list that badly? A secondary ability of the types we're discussing will at best offer a niche set that can better respond to a tailored selection of counters while losing general capability. I don't see what's broken about that. Give the mon a second ability.

I'd say that unpredictability is a huge factor in how strong a mon is. I don't play too much, but I remember one of the main factors as to why Auromoth was so broken was that the fact that it had not one, but two great competitive abilities. A similar situation was also present with Darmanitan-Galar in OU; the occasional Zen Mode set would pop up and completely surprise the opponent. Yes I know Darm-G was already broken anyways but Zen Mode added to its negative presence in the tier.

I reckon having a viable secondary ability that is super different to the primary ability is one of the biggest factors for unpredictability. Just because Regenerator is much better than No Guard doesn't really seem like a good enough argument, there's bound to be one sweaty guy who comes in with a No Guard set, and then No Guard becomes a fantastic off-meta option and soon you won't know what the heck CAP27 will do when you encounter it in battle.

Personally I think Poison Touch adds a sort of separate niche to the mon without being radically different like No Guard. It adds just a tad bit amount of unpredictability for people to experiment with CAP27, without significantly increasing its viability.

 

[Roland le preaux]

Well most everyone seems to have rejected or ignored the prospect of Defiant or Competitive, even though I believe they are solidly pro-concept abilities. I will instead make the case for why I dislike Poison Touch as a secondary ability. It is an inferior option that lacks a niche, whether in building CAP 27, gameplay, or team archetype. Poison Touch would make use of the same physical attacking moves that we'd want to spam anyway, as all relevant STAB options make contact. In terms of gameplay, Poison Touch would be the most effective on long, drawn-out games of attrition in which the poison is likely to proc. These are the same games in which Regenerator would shine, to a significantly better degree. And lastly, Poison Touch does not have a particular relevance on a different type of team archetype than Regenerator (whereas something like Competitive would work specifically on hyper-offense teams). When I stated that Poison Touch was *underwhelming* I meant that it provides minimal strategic difference from Regenerator and contributes too little power to ever be worth running over the primary ability. I'd much prefer No Competitive Ability or even No Guard over Poison Touch. The latter ability would promote a different moveset that enables us to potentially hit fire-resistances much harder than with Dragon Claw. It also synergizes with several of our offensive and supportive fire moves, as well as some rare and powerful options, which would open doors for us during the moveset stage of this process. These options are pro-concept, as dealing damage and inflicting status with our STAB moves has been part of the plan for CAP 27 since Concept Assessment. I also think the concern of ability prediction has been overblown in this thread. Yes, we just made a CAP (Equilibra) that has two completely different and frustrating immunity abilities. But we are overcorrecting if we suddenly decide that ability options are toxic to the health of the metagame. We have made many CAPs and there are many existing Pokemon with multiple competitive abilities; it is not a radical concept. If CAP 27 had access to both Regenerator and No Guard, it would not have two heavily different lists of switch-ins or counters the way Equilibra does. It would also have similar goals of offensive support, through inflicting damage and status, with both abilities, and therefore I doubt it would be incredibly frustrating to play around. This is probably my last post until the slate is decided. Thanks for reading! :)

 

[Wahrer]

Just returning to comment on some of the No Guard discussion both here and in the discord - it's not unanimous, by any means, but I think more than a handful of people are inferring NG would guarantee moves, esp. Inferno, that lean way more "unusuable without No Guard" versus "offers a slight edge with No Guard". I personally think if No Guard were to be selected, Inferno should probably off-limits due to it likely becoming such a pervasive element of its toolkit. Even Dragon Rush I could potentially see arguments against, which is why I think it's more worthwhile to focus on commonly-distributed moves this thing is much more likely to get such as Fire Blast, Draco Meteor and potentially Will-O-Wisp.

No Guard being a secondary without having any more out there, low-accuracy moves to reinforce it ends up being pretty understated, ultimately pales in both utility and likely would be in usage compared to Regenerator, but still offers a distinct, albeit uncommon niche for specific team comps that could afford to not run Regenerator every once in a blue moon. Notably, relevant common competitive physical attacks such as Dragon Claw and Flare Blitz already have perfect accuracy, whereas special STAB such as Fire Blast and Draco Meteor don't, requiring you to sacrifice power to guarantee the same amount of hits. 90% accuracy likely isn't a consideration each and every battle, but it does at least patch up the handful of times you might have a Draco Meteor miss otherwise. Additionally, adding to the "No Guard improves special attacks" slant, it gives 27 a way to more reliably break through things with better physical than special defense, as well as having an (admittedly minor) added bonus of avoiding contact to things like Ferrothorn without sacrificing an item slot.

tl;dr me suggesting No Guard was never meant with the intent of having it synergize with moves that have sub-80% accuracy. It's an insignificant but not virtually useless buff that culls some dice rolls and has the potential to bolster both direct attacks and status moves, lending itself to an offensive support, but without being so centralizing that it takes the bulk of the focus from Regenerator.

 

[lydian]

Hey I have two abilities I want to bring up, one was already brought up by Deck Knight and that is Natural Cure. I think status healing can be quite useful for a Pokémon like this given how common the likes of Toxic and Thunder Wave are, and Natural Cure helps with that while not obfuscating Regenerator like Poison Heal, and especially Magic Guard would... Another option that comes to mind is Shed Skin as well, doing a similar function to Natural Cure but without having the need to switch out, which allows us not to be forced out by any Pokémon with Toxic. While CAP 27 should probably have access to Aromatherapy / Heal Bell due to its role as a support Pokémon after all, it's going to have to choose between Wish and Aromatherapy, (unless you want to drop a STAB) so I think having a secondary ability to aid with status would be a good call. Just my 2 cents, but No Competitive Ability is cool with me as well. Or even something else like Rough Skin or Iron Barbs could be interesting too!

 

[Deck Knight]

Just returning to comment on some of the No Guard discussion both here and in the discord - it's not unanimous, by any means, but I think more than a handful of people are inferring NG would guarantee moves, esp. Inferno, that lean way more "unusuable without No Guard" versus "offers a slight edge with No Guard". I personally think if No Guard were to be selected, Inferno should probably off-limits due to it likely becoming such a pervasive element of its toolkit. Even Dragon Rush I could potentially see arguments against, which is why I think it's more worthwhile to focus on commonly-distributed moves this thing is much more likely to get such as Fire Blast, Draco Meteor and potentially Will-O-Wisp.

No Guard being a secondary without having any more out there, low-accuracy moves to reinforce it ends up being pretty understated, ultimately pales in both utility and likely would be in usage compared to Regenerator, but still offers a distinct, albeit uncommon niche for specific team comps that could afford to not run Regenerator every once in a blue moon. Notably, relevant common competitive physical attacks such as Dragon Claw and Flare Blitz already have perfect accuracy, whereas special STAB such as Fire Blast and Draco Meteor don't, requiring you to sacrifice power to guarantee the same amount of hits. 90% accuracy likely isn't a consideration each and every battle, but it does at least patch up the handful of times you might have a Draco Meteor miss otherwise. Additionally, adding to the "No Guard improves special attacks" slant, it gives 27 a way to more reliably break through things with better physical than special defense, as well as having an (admittedly minor) added bonus of avoiding contact to things like Ferrothorn without sacrificing an item slot.

tl;dr me suggesting No Guard was never meant with the intent of having it synergize with moves that have sub-80% accuracy. It's an insignificant but not virtually useless buff that culls some dice rolls and has the potential to bolster both direct attacks and status moves, lending itself to an offensive support, but without being so centralizing that it takes the bulk of the focus from Regenerator.

One thing that has been forgotten a bit is never missing a crucial Will-O-Wisp or Toxic (which is no longer universal but is compatible with concept.) Even without theoretical "abusing" moves, the accuracy increase on key support moves and common STABs is a huge consistency boost for a Pokemon that thrives on consistency.

Even without "tricks" No Guard is a great secondary ability that can make some sets more consistent without overshadowing Regenerator.

 

[Gunpowder Gelatine]

1) So far, CAP 27 only lacks the ability to effectively take out one of its switch-ins, being Zeraora. Zeraora has a variety of powerful moves at its disposal that can threaten CAP 27. As such, in order to make it a nearly perfect counter, I believe Motor Drive would make an excellent Ability. It could potentially work well to use another Pokémon such as Togekiss to lure Zeraora into using Plasma Fists, which would boost CAP 27's speed stat. This could do well as a secondary ability because it greatly strengthens the most worried matchup at the given moment and not much else, and to be honest giving another Pokémon Intimidate would make it far better of a Pokémon than we want it to be. This could also make CAP 27 interesting in Doubles as it could speed up with an ally's (or even enemy's) Discharge. By giving this Ability to CAP 27, it could give Zeraora a terrible time and could give it a role as a great switch-in. It could also be used as a good switch-in for Caribolt's, Rotom-Wash's, or Rotom-Heat's Electric STAB, or even another Pokémon's Electric-type coverage to make a lot of matchups better.

2) I believe that the matchups we should make more stable are the ones against the fast, offensive threats. Regenerator is an amazing Ability, so the secondary Ability should offer something else that might be more niche, but can offer something completely different to give the secondary Ability more of an identity. Motor Drive offers the capacity to make anybody using an Electric-type move think, "Will my enemy predict that I use this?" or "Will my enemy predict that I will try to take out their CAP 27?" and can turn the tide of many matches.

 

[tiernothebeast]

I honestly think No Guard's consistency output isn't really a good option to choose it over Regenerator, as we're only really fixing 85% and 90% chances which are quite accurate, and we're getting hit by Stone Edges always in return. If we were to add moves like Inferno, it would really turn CAP 27 into something quite annoying (100 BP with 100% burn is quite overpowered). So I believe No Guard either is a mediocre consistency booster or an enabler for overpowered attacks, and thus would not be a good choice.

(Dragon Rush could be a good choice to enable No Guard, with 100 BP and a 20% flinch chance. However, I'm not sure if it's worth giving up a 33% HP gain every time you switch out just for a +20 BP buff to your Dragon STAB.)

Now, Volt Absorb is something I think could work. It merely turns a 2 x Resistance into an immunity, thus not completely turning matchups around but simply turning an already neutral matchup into a win (e.g. vs Rotom-Heat). It also can block a Volt Switch pivot, and it allows CAP 27 to regain 25% of its HP every time it's hit by a Electric-Type move, therefore turning it into a pseudo-Regenerator if you predict well. A main argument against this is that it would create mindgames, but only for the first time CAP 27 switches in, as Regenerator can be seen after CAP 27 switches in a second time. Thus I believe that this argument doesn't overweigh the benefits of Volt Absorb and thus Volt Absorb would be a good ability.

 

[GMars]

It seems like discussion is wrapping up, so consider this your 48 Hour Warning. Get any last discussion in on the choices you support!

 

[CharSiuEmboar]

Volt Absorb is limited in that it does exactly the same as Regenerator, but worse - it only works off Electric Attacks, and the "mind games" are no different should the team have a Ground Type - I can't really see Volt Absorb CAP27 replacing a ground type which is supported by Sand and STAB EQ.

No Competitive Ability is adequate - Regenerator is so overbearingly good that any other ability may be completely irrelevant. However, for another ability to have a chance at being taken, it has to do more than simply recreate a lesser effect of Regenerator. No Guard does this; it provides adequate support via status moves; 100% Accurate Burns, Toxics, Paralysis and potentially Sleep, and increased chance to Flinch with the high speed. Gooey does this by allowing it to switch into a Physical Attack drop the speed of attackers. Flame Body does this by providing potentially free Burns allowing more flexibility with move pool without wanting to run high burn chance moves.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I'm gonna drop in an say that I really support No Competitive Ability. I'm just not seeing a huge reason to have a second ability. Many people talk of "building a second niche", but Regenerator is an overwhelming ability. Any attempt to "create a second niche" will either be overwhelmed or risk being overwhelming.

The ability I'm seeing the most, Poison Touch, is an uncontrollable element that you can't really plan around, so I don't see people taking it over Regenerator, simply because Regerator has an impact on every single battle, either in being used or just presenting the threat of being used, whereas Poison touch is just you hoping you get lucky. It doesn't really bring any new builds to the table, and it doesn't even bring any new mindgames to the table.

Meanwhile, abilities like No Guard open up such a massive new niche that it not only changes the way you can build the pokemon, but the way the pokemon itself has to be designed, completely changing this from a single concept into two different concepts, one of which is far more offensively potent than the other. You could severely limit the moveset to make it unable to use powerhouses like Inferno, but at that point this just becomes another ability that can't compete with Regenerator, so we limited our moveset for an ability no one would ever use. Even in the cases people mention, it's all about "increasing the power of usable moves", but is that something we want to explore? We're an offensive support, not a sweeper. For that reason, I don't support this, or many of the other potent offensive abilities, because they risk completely changing the concept.

This is the pattern I see in most abilities suggested here: Either no benefit in taking them over Regenerator, or they are too offensively potent and risk moving us out of the "support" role.

 

[snake]

Before this thread closes, I wanted to review any other options we can use for secondary ability. One I'm particularly excited about is Rattled. It's surprisingly useful for CAP27. Rattled boosts CAP27's speed by 1 stage against Bug-, Ghost-, and Dark-type moves, as well as against Intimidate. There are a few situations in which this would be useful to aid CAP27 in pressure matchups:

As Dragapult, Jirachi, Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Corviknight, and Syclant use U-turn to switch out, CAP27 can switch in and get its speed boost. This reduces the number of options that can immediately revenge kill CAP27, giving in at easier time applying offensive pressure or using a crucial support option, as few Pokemon can outspeed a +1 CAP27. For example, Corviknight cannot U-turn safely into Dragapult in this situation because CAP27 will outspeed Dragapult the next turn.

CAP27 can absorb Dragapult's Hex, Zeraora's Knock Off, Choice Scarf Chandelure's Shadow Ball, or Choice Scarf Hydreigon's Dark Pulse and proceed to force them out. Choice Scarf Chandelure appears notably on Sun teams, which would not want to give CAP27 a speed boost.

CAP27 can freely dissaude a Bisharp's last ditch Sucker Punch. Keep in mind that Bisharp commonly appears on spike-stacking hyper offense teams that would hate to stare down a +1 CAP27.

Tomohawk's Intimidate may raise CAP27's speed, but this overall won't affect its matchup with Tomohawk, as CAP27 will outspeed it anyway.

Overall, I think Rattled has enough niche uses against high profile Pokemon in the metagame that it actually makes it useful. That conditional speed boost can be very powerful when used correctly, especially when used against hyper offense teams like sun teams or spike-stacking hyper offense teams. Obviously, this ability doesn't do much against defensive teams, but that's what Regenerator is for.

 

[Pipotchi]

Before this thread closes, I wanted to review any other options we can use for secondary ability. One I'm particularly excited about is Rattled. It's surprisingly useful for CAP27. Rattled boosts CAP27's speed by 1 stage against Bug-, Ghost-, and Dark-type moves, as well as against Intimidate. There are a few situations in which this would be useful to aid CAP27 in pressure matchups:

As Dragapult, Jirachi, Hydreigon, Mandibuzz, Corviknight, and Syclant use U-turn to switch out, CAP27 can switch in and get its speed boost. This reduces the number of options that can immediately revenge kill CAP27, giving in at easier time applying offensive pressure or using a crucial support option, as few Pokemon can outspeed a +1 CAP27. For example, Corviknight cannot U-turn safely into Dragapult in this situation because CAP27 will outspeed Dragapult the next turn.

CAP27 can absorb Dragapult's Hex, Zeraora's Knock Off, Choice Scarf Chandelure's Shadow Ball, or Choice Scarf Hydreigon's Dark Pulse and proceed to force them out. Choice Scarf Chandelure appears notably on Sun teams, which would not want to give CAP27 a speed boost.

CAP27 can freely dissaude a Bisharp's last ditch Sucker Punch. Keep in mind that Bisharp commonly appears on spike-stacking hyper offense teams that would hate to stare down a +1 CAP27.

Tomohawk's Intimidate may raise CAP27's speed, but this overall won't affect its matchup with Tomohawk, as CAP27 will outspeed it anyway.

Overall, I think Rattled has enough niche uses against high profile Pokemon in the metagame that it actually makes it useful. That conditional speed boost can be very powerful when used correctly, especially when used against hyper offense teams like sun teams or spike-stacking hyper offense teams. Obviously, this ability doesn't do much against defensive teams, but that's what Regenerator is for.

Just pulling from what I said on Discord, I dont rate this ability as worthy for secondary abil slot because:

a) this mon is never appreciating switching into knock off at any point
b) switching into u-turn doesnt grant us any advantage, they still have the freedom to then switch into the multiple bulky pokemon that beat this mon 1v1 without regenerator, something a speed boost does nothing for. a lot of these safe mons like mandibuzz and corvi thrive on fat balance teams that will have an easy cap27 answer to switch right into.
c) some matches this ability will never even come into play, and the ones where it does require you to make a crazy prediction and succeed for a quite small benefit
d) almost all the mons that you are risking switching in to have another way of obliterating you, for instance hydrei and dragapults draco meteors, chandelure i think is more likely to run a specs and pretty much ohkos you, syclant is ohkoing you with earthquake and 2hkoing happily with icicle crash
d) we already beat ferrothorn and zera arguably better with regen, and probably do a better job beating sucker punchers like colossoil and bisharp with the regen set.


so yes it does have the smallest of fringe uses to me, but compared to the main ability I would call Rattled = NCA. Id be willing to back it in a NCA stage perhaps, but not right here at this point. Perhaps Weak Armor would be the more competitive version of this but im not wanting to unpack that in this post @_@

 

[quziel]

Snip

So, this and discord discussions sorta made me think of another related ability that provides much the same function but is wayyy easier to actually make work during a match and doesn't require as much buy-in from your opponent; Weak Armor (-1 Def / +2 Spe on hit from a physical move). I think one thing that Regenerator covers super well, well enough that we can't really compete with, is the ability to act as an offensive pivot that supports its team over the course of a game, a la Torn-T. Weak Armor goes really hard in the other direction, pushing us to do as much as we can in a single switchin, fulfilling the concept in a manner similar to Counterleads such as DPP Roserade and ORAS Diancie-Mega, and well, whatever you consider Prankster Thundy-I to be.

Because this ability gives us more power in a single switchin it imo would allow us to fit a lot better onto pure offensive builds, or even function as a lead ourself. Additionally, the extra speed really can help us turn a U-turn, Knock Off, or other low risk move by the opponent directly into offensive pressure. It basically gives us a cool ability that, while technically causing some mindgames doesn't really impact our counters, pushes specifically for offensive sets, and basically lets us use "prankster" will-o-wisp.

 

[snake]

Perhaps Weak Armor would be the more competitive version of this but im not wanting to unpack that in this post @_@

Weak Armor (-1 Def / +2 Spe on hit from a physical move). I think one thing that Regenerator covers super well, well enough that we can't really compete with, is the ability to act as an offensive pivot that supports its team, a la Torn-T.

I can definitely get behind Weak Armor. To be completely honest, I hadn't even thought about it. It provides that same conditional speed boost and allows CAP27 to check Pokemon like Zeraora and Choice Scarf Jirachi better while also punishing U-turn in a similar manner (Corviknight U-turning out into Dragapult much more difficult, as I previously outlined). Since boosting is pretty anti-concept too, there's significantly less danger to adding this ability, and CAP27 would be giving up its recovery in Regenerator to even use this. Shift my focus from Rattled to Weak Armor; I think it's an interesting enough ability as a secondary :)

EDIT: Just so I'm not posting too much, I think I've realized why I don't really like No Guard. What No Guard does is make CAP27 slightly more consistent at certain things but at the cost of its recovery in Regenerator. I'm still thinking NCA is the best option here, but at least Poison Touch makes it so that CAP27 can annoy its counters by attacking, Weak Armor can turn the tables on U-turn users, and Volt Absorb can surprise block a Volt Switch. Those actually do things that Regenerator absolutely cannot do. No Guard just...doesn't do anything that CAP27 can't do with Regenerator except hit moves a little more consistently, but then you're just missing out on the recovery. Most of the moves that CAP27 has realistic access to don't even have that big of a miss chance either; I really don't see the appeal in this ability at all. If we're going to add a secondary ability, it should at least do something that Regenerator can't do.

 

[MrPanda]

Okay, so the thread is about to close, and I would like to point my final thoughts.

I'm not such as a defender of No Guard but I'm in favor of a clear discussion and a fair vote so I think it's important we see all the perspectives of a situation. In this moment, there's a point which I consider interesting for CAP27 and which I didn't see anyone talk about. No Guard is likely the best if not the only ability in the thread that incentivizes the use of a mixed play set and consequently of the CAP27's 92 base SpA. With accuracy check, moves like Inferno, Fire Blast and Dragon Rush become reliable moves, which also add an extra utility option in the case of Inferno. I still prefer Poison Touch but I'm surely prone to vote for No Guard now.

Additionally, I echo the CharSiuEmboar's words about Volt Absorb. It consolidates the versus Electric-types matchups by giving us a electric immunity and blocks a possible opposing VoltTurn core. However it does the same thing that Regen but worst, as it just works when hitted by Electric moves. I don't see how it could add something to CAP27 beyond what Regen allows us already.

Lastly, again, I'm totally in favor of NCA as an alternative option for Regen.

 

[Roland le preaux]

I just want to chime in my thoughts about Weak Armor, a rather late addition to the conversation. I like it! Our low Attack and Special Attack stats will ensure that we are unlikely to become a sweeper, even with a Life Orb, but the speed boost will help with match ups like Zeraora and make us harder for threats like Scarf Hydreigon or Scarf Dracovish to revenge kill. It is a significantly worse ability than Regenerator, having heavy drawbacks, but it has a specific niche that means it could see some fringe usage on offensive teams. My preferred secondary ability is still Competitive, and Tomohawk being everywhere right now does not make me second guess that, because it was determined to be a counter to only physical variants of CAP 27. And, given that Competitive would probably only be viable on hyper offense, it would be pretty clear which ability is being run at team preview. Having a good Tomohawk matchup also means a Competitive 27 would only serve to diversify the meta. However if Competitive is not slated, both No Guard and Weak Armor are choices I find rather interesting and valid for a secondary ability. And finally, I think the suggestion that No Guard has no niche is pretty odd, given that it is the only ability under discussion that could effectively serve as a damage amplification for 27's attacks (given the right moves, of course). Things like Hyper Voice Sylveon prove that extra damage can always be a desirable trait, even on supportive Pokemon and even when the damage amplification is minimal.

 

[Mr. Mime fan]

so far i have been looking at the meta and these are my thoughts. So my first agreement is NO GUARD. no guard is an interesting ability. looking at CAP27's stats i still think regenerator would be the preferred ability just because of recovery without being lost a movesolt, plus it allows for better pivoting in and out. but thinking about it no guard would give teambuilding some thinking because it doesnt have to be that same ability. no guard would have some play as he could get not fully accurate moves like fireblast. this could give him some special use so it doesnt have to be physical. i think this would make the most sense. summary- this could add some thinking into teambuilding and would make it more varying from team to team. but regenerator is still the best ability for him. 2, ive been lookingat weak armor. weak armor, as Roland said above would be cool to get the jump on faster threats, like zera, but not make teambuilding that straightforward. some sets could make weak armor work. volt absorb also seems fine. still regenerator is faar the better defensive ability you woould think twice playing an electric move against a team vs cap27. it would force a switch from a choiced electric user. it would give some thought and yet would still be worse than regen. which is the point. so no guard, volt absorb and weak armor seem fime, but im open to poison touch and competitive too, to give some variety and stalling potential and special attacking use. respectively.

 

[porcupine21]

Welcome back to the ability section! Now that we have our stats, here's some questions to help us get started:

1) How would a secondary ability benefit CAP 27 and improve its capacity to act as an offensive support Pokemon?

2) What matchups should we look to improve through a secondary ability?

Please keep the secondary ability banlist in mind, and remember that the major requirement for a secondary ability is that it should not overshadow our primary ability, Regenerator.

1) Its going to be very difficult to overshadow Regenerator, which is one of the best abilities in the game. However, I do not find the idea of No Competitive Ability very appealing, simply because I feel the secondary ability should be one that players would want to use in battles. A lack of competitive abilities apart from Regenerator means that that will be the only Ability to see any use.
Of the options placed,
Poison Touch remains an ideal pick for a second, slightly underwhelming, yet useful ability.

Steely Spirit could make sense as an option (trading recovery to better threaten Clefable), though like with Defiant I share a concern that it would push CAP 27 a bit too far towards offense while straining the amount of utility that CAP 27 would actually be incentivized to provide.

Steely Spirit,/Steelworker could really make CAP 27 a little OP, as GMars says here
Volt Absorb/Lightning Rod/ Motor Drive improve CAP 27's matchups against Electric-types like Zeraora and Galvanize-boosted Boomburst from Caribolt (which I have been using myself to good effect with Choice Specs). It must be noted, however, that even without these abilities CAP 27 resists Electric-type moves.
Of my own suggestions, Unnerve could be a possibility to deter Harvest abusers like Malaconda. This would serve an effective niche role while being definitely inferior to Regenerator.

Quick Feet: Flips status (Poison and Paralysis) on its head. Full Para is still annoying, but especially with our Speed tier this puts heavy pressure on previously faster Dragons. Nobody is going to run a Toxic Orb to activate this either.

I'd also like to suggest Quick Feet , along with Deck Knight in the post above - could lead to some interesting sets, but unlikely it'll see too much use.
Edit : I'd also like to throw Weak Armour into the ring. It would definitely push Speed levels to that of other more offensive Pokemon while not making CAP 27 OP.
2) I don't see a need to immediately improve the switch-in/ matchup prospects for CAP 27.

 

[tiernothebeast]

I do agree Volt Absorb is kind of underwhelming, as it only really blocks Volt Switches, its recovery is less than Regen's and with the main Electric types in the meta, one just loses even without Volt Absorb (Rotom-Heat) and one wins even with Volt Absorb (Zeraora). Electric-Type coverage also isn't a good reason to use Volt Absorb, as CAP 27 resists Electric-Type anyway.

No Guard really only buffs consistency and gives a +20 BP buff to Dragon Stab with Dragon Rush (Inferno and others are too much with No Guard). Even the +20 BP buff to Dragon Stab and moves that always hit isn't a good tradeoff to Regenerator's 33% HP each time you switch in. It could be useful if you wanted to give CAP 27 a little more power, but again, Regen's recovery is more valuable.

Now Weak Armor seems like something that's quite good! CAP 27's offensive power isn't the best, so Weak Armor won't enable CAP 27 to sweep entire teams. Also, while Regen allows continued utility for CAP 27 with its recovery, Weak Armor allows CAP 27 to usually move first and get the most support in one switch-in (as said before, CAP 27 doesn't have the best offensive power, so even with a STAB combo that hits everything neutrally, it's not going to sweep teams with a speed boost). Both of these are pro-concept, so I think Weak Armor would be a good choice.

Also, No Competitive Ability would be fine, as Regen already does a lot for CAP 27, so having no competitive ability would not deal that much damage to CAP 27 with its already strong ability.

 

[GMars]

Hi everyone, here's your slate, in order of appearance in the thread:

No Competitive Ability
Poison Touch
Volt Absorb
Motor Drive
Weak Armor

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Reasonings:

No Competitive Ability - It should be clear why this was slated. CAP 27 already has the tools it needs to be successful, and it doesn't require the added complexity of a secondary competitive ability at this point. Instead, many people voiced their belief that adding complexity and utility to CAP 27 through its movepool would lead to a product more likely to successfully fulfill its concept.

Poison Touch - Poison Touch was an interesting suggestion that manages to carve a distinct niche from Regenerator, letting CAP 27 offer support to its teammates by weakening walls that would repeatedly switch in without being able to break through them on its own.

Volt Absorb - One of two potential Electric immunities on the slate, Volt Absorb looks to improve CAP 27's matchup against two potential switch-ins, Zeraora and Rotom-H, by making them hesitate before using Volt Switch, and if run could allow CAP 27 a crucial turn to launch off a support option and sap momentum. Volt Absorb also prevents Thunder Wave, letting CAP 27 absorb a bit of status for its teammates and reliably get its moves off without being burdened in cases of a 25% full paralysis chance.

Motor Drive - Motor Drive improves CAP 27's matchup against Zeraora by allowing CAP 27 to outspeed Zeraora if it catches it on an Electric move, letting CAP 27 pressure it and force it out or simply fire off a last-ditch utility option if Zeraora is still full on HP. Additionally, like Volt Absorb, Motor Drive can protect CAP 27 from Thunder Wave for the purposes of consistency. Unlike Volt Absorb, Motor Drive would trend towards less resilient sets, which could help further differentiate it from Regenerator. This option was slated over Lightning Rod because it helps more in the Zeraora matchup and due to a decision against biasing CAP 27 specially in the stat stage.

Weak Armor - Weak Armor, though introduced late in the section, has seen near unanimous support due to the strong niche it carves from Regenerator strengthening certain Pressure matchups and punishing the opponent's attempts to gain momentum from U-turn without being oppressive. It allows CAP 27 to play a more offensive role while preventing it from going too far on the offensive spectrum by the conditional nature of its Speed boost.

I feel I should also add in here reasoning why No Guard wasn't slated. After reading through the discussion again, No Guard's benefits boil down to adding consistency to status moves and giving a slight power boost to STAB options. One draw of No Guard was that it can significantly improve CAP 27's special side, but this clashes with the earlier agreement on a primarily physical bias. This could be remedied by saying that a secondary ability, in competing with Regenerator, already doesn't have to worry about being a "primary" option. However, given that, the actual options available for boosting from No Guard are either minor or extreme (shoring up a few percent on Fire Blast vs the unfortunately oft-talked about Inferno). These benefits either don't change the way CAP 27 plays at the cost of significantly hampering its long term consistency (giving slight boosts to physical STAB and status accuracy for the short term while removing long-term recovery through Regenerator), or seek to change the way CAP 27 plays too much at the expense of previous ICC (giving too large of a boost to the special side of CAP 27). No Guard either doesn't provide a unique enough niche from Regenerator to be considered, or it provides abilities that go against what the community has decided would be good for CAP 27 up to this point, with little room for inbetween.

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Thanks for the discussion everyone, after Jho confirms the slate, I'll see y'all in the polls!

 

[Jho]

This slate looks good to me! I could have gotten behind either way for No Guard since the discussion was very back and forth, however, GMars's summary of the arguments here, as well as his reasoning behind not slating it are very well put and so I will not be adding it to the slate. With that being, said lets put these options to the poll!