CAP 28 Part 14 - Post Play Lookback

[Mx]

CAP 28 So Far

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In this stage we will first reflect on the process so far, discussing what we've learned from this process, how this well we have fulfilled its concept, and what impact we had in the metagame. After that we will discuss some possible minor tweaks to the product in order to better fulfill our goals. Please follow the Topic Leader's instructions and don't propose any specific changes until they say so.

Changes allowed:

• Move additions and removals
• Changes to secondary ability
• Small stat changes

Changes not allowed

• Typing changes
• Changes to primary ability
• Large stat changes

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Alright, now that it has been more than a month since Miasmaw's 1.0 release I think it's time we start our first Post Play Lookback! To start off this discussion, I'd like to ask a few questions that I think are going to be very important, both to reflect on Miasmaw and its concept and to have a better idea of what we might want when moving forward:

1. What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?
2. Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?
3. How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?
4. How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?

 

[SunMYSER]

What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?
Personally, i think Miasmaw's execution was one of the strongest i've been around for. It seemed to be the most concise in all its forms; especially seeing as we were trying not to make a broken CAP this time around. The strongest part if Miasmaw's execution has to be the movepool stage. I felt as though we very quickly outlined what would be too good for Miasmaw, both coverage and utility wise. Axing sleep-inducing moves was great. As a result, Miasmaw hits all the things it was meant to hit (the Regen-mons, Zera, Rotoms, etc.) without feeling like it can just as easily hit the entire tier.

Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?
Despite the vagueness of the concept (stopping all pivoting is hard) i feel as though Miasmaw does it's job well. It stops the previously mentioned mons fairly nicely, as well as pressuring mons that rely on their abilities: Snaelstrom, Magic Guard Clef, and the meta defining all come to mind.

How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?
Miasmaw was a beast pre-dlc. While it's fragility definitely made it difficult to bring in cleanly, its ability to dismantle the common cores was astounding. Ironically, i found it's best partners were slow pivots and teleporters; both of which allowed Miasmaw in safely.

Miasmaw @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Dragon Hammer
- Thunderbolt
- Earthquake
- Taunt

I found this set performed the best for me in the Pre-DLC meta as it pressured the widest amount of things. Earthquake allowed it to hit those pesky levitators, and tbolt for Corvknight and the occasional Caw. I've seen CB also be used, but personally, the mixed set was more consistent.

How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?
This is definitely where i find Miasmaw struggles the most. The powercreep of DLC was not kind to Miasmaw: the Kanto birds, Phero, Buzz, Melmetal, and a whole mess of other things force it out cleanly. It's not super on-concept to have a bad matchup to the best offensive pivot in the game. I don't think Miasmaw's performance Post DLC reflects bad on the project itself. Future-proofing is hard, and i think once the rest of the bans kick in, Miasmaw will have a renewed niche.

Miasmaw @ Choice Band
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- First Impression
- Earthquake
- Dragon Hammer
- Iron Head

As of right now, i find the CB variant to get the showings. It hits all the things it needs to, and hard. The only thing i can really say about it, is that i find i usually end up clicking First Impression 80% of the time, then switching out.

Miasmaw is a very fun pokemon, and was executed extremely well IMO. I can't wait to see what we make next!

 

[Pipotchi]

What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?
Concept-wise I think we explored new ground wrt tackling something outside the scope of stats and movepool. CAP almost never makes a straight-up attacker either and this is one of the first pokemon in a long time that fills that kind of purpose. Imo even though it didnt land perfectly it was a learning experience with trying to land on a specialist pokemon (something that excels at one thing rather than being a glue mon for a team, as almost very CAP has been for multiple generations now).
The best parts of Miasmaw for me was picking a powerful primary ability in NGas and then giving it one-dimensional stats (shout out to the stat limits for sure). This made it so a lot of the "power budget" of the pokemon seemed to fall directly on the concept and executing it rather than fitting onto a team.

The problem parts of Miasmaw for me was the battle against "generically good" typings. This has been the literal concept behind CAPs in the past and it strains the discussion when some ppl have a secondary agenda that they are eager to include imo. It also is disappointing to see good arguments get dismissed just by some guy saying "generically good" as if that has an equal weight to a long list of good qualities. I think axing a concept-relevant typing like Electric/Fairy was probably a miss and the argument that typings alone can be broken or are more likely to lead to broken (when we have mons like Kitsunoh, Revenankh and Smokomodo running around with some of the objectively most "busted" typings in the game in the lower tiers) makes no sense. In my opinion, the weaker the typing the more unstable the pokemon is and more likely to over/undershoot. Id love to avoid this type of reasoning in the future, and I just think its messy.
This is also something thats starting to brew for stats as well (a pushback on high BSTs). I think exploring interesting stats and abilities is fine but it shouldnt be tacked onto a different concept if they are intentionally making it fit its initial concept worse.

Also, I think the movepool ended a little too loose for its initial meta. It just ended up getting every single good coverage move on both sides of the spectrum, priority, every relevant boosting move, recovery and taunt. Definitely fits the concept of strong wallbreaker, but it feels like it wasnt finalized (and from what I gathered it was left intentionally this way to remove things later on?). I think it might be better to go with a more structured movepool stage like we have had previously, even with the addition of a review stage. I think a lot of Miasmaw's unnecessary moves will stick around now because its more awkward to restructure the mon with their removal than not adding them in the first place.

I also dont really understand what happened in Secondary Ability and it ended up being just a dead slot.

Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?
I think Miasmaw accomplished its concept the minute it got NGas as the ability, but it also did well to end up being a 4-attacks kind of mon rather than a glue (as i mentioned before). I think we could have targeted a slightly bigger chunk of the concept and the obsession with Zeraora to meet the concept was a bit hindering. But overall, yea I think it was successful.

How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?
Lil overtuned mainly due to its all-encompassing movepool and the slow af meta

How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?
Basically nowhere to be seen. Its alright, but theres more busted purely offensive mons in the tier right now that are more universally useful. Wallbreakers fall in and out of favour as meta changes and their qualities are needed, and when some of those mons leave the tier it might be more easy to judge its worth. It honestly still seems totally usable as stall does pop up and it handles some really strong defensive pokemon still.

Overall, this CAP was outside of our comfort zone for almost every stage and maybe thats a good thing. I hope it can lead to more exploration in the future.

just gunna drop my maw set that ive enjoyed alongside toxic and spikes usage :) :
Miasmaw @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Neutralizing Gas
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Draco Meteor
- Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Recover

 

[Krazyguy75]

The problem parts of Miasmaw for me was the battle against "generically good" typings. This has been the literal concept behind CAPs in the past and it strains the discussion when some ppl have a secondary agenda that they are eager to include imo. It also is disappointing to see good arguments get dismissed just by some guy saying "generically good" as if that has an equal weight to a long list of good qualities. I think axing a concept-relevant typing like Electric/Fairy was probably a miss and the argument that typings alone can be broken or are more likely to lead to broken (when we have mons like Kitsunoh, Revenankh and Smokomodo running around with some of the objectively most "busted" typings in the game in the lower tiers) makes no sense. In my opinion, the weaker the typing the more unstable the pokemon is and more likely to over/undershoot. Id love to avoid this type of reasoning in the future, and I just think its messy.
This is also something thats starting to brew for stats as well (a pushback on high BSTs). I think exploring interesting stats and abilities is fine but it shouldnt be tacked onto a different concept if they are intentionally making it fit its initial concept worse.

I personally disagree with this. Fact of the matter is, CAP is becoming somewhat homogeneous. Every CAP is a higher than average power optimized mon with a strong typing. Like look at the Steel/Dragon/Fairy trio of "best typings" that usually comes up: Miasmaw is Dragon. Astrolotl is Dragon. Equilabra is Steel. CAP 25 was restricted in typing, so it isn't. Jumbao, Fairy. Pajantom, Dragon. Kerfluffle, Fairy. Finally, 6 pokemon back, skipping the type restricted one, we get our first pokemon outside of the big 3 typing, Crucibelle.

That means we haven't created a non-Fairy/Steel/Dragon type pokemon other than the 3 starters in over 4 years. That means we haven't created a non-Fairy/Steel/Dragon type pokemon in two entire pokemon generations, except when we didn't have the choice to pick otherwise! Now that alone isn't a huge problem... except for one thing. The best counters to those three typings are themselves, and we aren't only making those typings, but the best of those typings we can possibly make legal. So we are making a CAP meta where each new CAP has an increasingly stronger motive to pick one of three types, and thus a CAP meta where type diversity suffers.

Miasmaw is actually a great example of this concept in action: Our dragon typing is mainly there for coverage rather than any pro-concept benefits, and that resulted in the bug typing which was originally supposed to be the more pro-concept typing of the pair going entirely unused offensively in all the movesets people have discussed so far. So now we've got a solid offensive mon with a dragon typing. What counters that? Ice, but that's a risky typing that'd need to go first, and high speed is dangerous. How about Steel or Fairy? They do the job great!

I think this is the key thing we need to address post-Miasmaw: will we keep letting the big 3 typings show up on every concept, just cause "Fairy and Dragon have good coverage for any concept; Fairy and Steel have good defenses for any concept" or will we place restrictions on them to prevent something I'm gonna call self-reinforcing type creep.

But putting that aside, I think NGas perfectly fitted the concept, and the stat and coverage stages were restrained in an excellent way. Miasmaw is IMO one of the best executed CAPs out there, even if post-DLC it suffered a lot due to power creep.

 

[dex]

I've played quite a bit with Miasmaw and my experience with it has been, well, mixed.
In terms of being effective in the meta, I think it does just fine. Banded Fimp is a very scary set that can do serious damage, even to resists. I've seen Choice Specs Compound Eyes be effective along with HDB mixed utility sets that can catch people off guard with Taunt. So Miasmaw in a vacuum is actually in a good place competitively.
Also I'd like to note that it does one of its jobs, countering regen spam, very, very well. Being able to pressure the slowtwins and Tangrowth is quite helpful, though with the return of Torn-T I could see that role becoming somewhat diminished in the future.
However, the one thing that I think needs to be addressed about Miasmaw is the type of playstyle it encourages. Because of Miasmaw's extremely poor physical bulk, it is used most effectively and safely through being brought in by pivots. This should go without saying, but the fact that Miasmaw seems to work best on pivot teams seems really anti-concept to me, given that Miasmaw was seen going into the process as an answer to CAP's pre-DLC meta which was defined by regen-spamming from Slowking and Astrolotl and pivoting from Zeraora and others. Miasmaw does less to counter that playstyle and more to encourage it, as it essentially, in that meta, gave pivot teams an advantage over other pivot teams. I don't know how to fix this exactly, but it was disappointing to see that when I run into Miasmaw on ladder, it's usually followed by at least 3 pivots.
It remains to be seen where Miasmaw falls in the wake of the new DLC, but I suspect his value will be diminished. The return of Clef, Zapdos, and Torn-T provide solid answers to Miasmaw's most common sets, while even more fast, powerful attackers have entered the tier. While Miasmaw is incredibly fun to use, and accomplishes its niche effectively, overall it is underwhelming in the current meta and there are few teams that where Miasmaw provides something other physical breakers don't.

 

[quziel]

1. What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?
2. Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?
3. How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?
4. How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?

1. What can we learn from Miasmaw

I think Miasmaw has a few lessons that can be learned.

Firstly, w.r.t. typing, I think I made a mistake w.r.t. not giving enough time for discussion on the options themselves. The timetable for typing was fairly short, and the slate was posted too late, which meant that the options posted did not have enough time for discussion. In the future we need to ensure that "frontrunners" are posted with enough time for full discussion before the slate is drawn up. Additionally, I think the idea that there had to be a balance in the slated options (I did not want to have a slate with >50% electric types) impacted the options slated for the worse. I don't have a great solution here.

I think the project also had a minor failure when it comes to railroading. Early on we decided that we wanted to focus on "some fast pivots" + "many slow pivots" and over time that just transformed to "we will beat slowking, blissey, and slowking". If you notice this combo of mons is a bit scary for us, being that its 2 scald users and blissey. I think the railroading towards those three threats in particular reduced the flexibilty we had in the project. A more open approach of "we will beat 3 of Slowbro, Slowking, Mandibuzz, Pex, Blissey, etc" could have left a bit more freedom when choosing stats/ability/moves after typing was chosen.

With respect to the concept, it sorta falls into one of my least favorite tendencies when it comes to CAP, that is, the tendency to try to "fix the meta" with the new cap. I know it was not intended to fix the meta, but at the time the whole "delayed moves + pivot + wallbreaker" team stye was in full swing, and I, and definitely a lot of other people read the concept as targeting one element of that. I think choosing to focus on a different set of pivots could have helped this.

2. Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept

Miasmaw is an excellent wallbreaker to pair with sweepers/cleaners that specifically need damage on Pex/Slowbro/Slowking/Sorta Blissey. In this way I think it accomplished its concept. Sadly for us, those sweepers/cleaners are often offensive pivots themselves, eg Volkraken and Kerfluffle. Neutralizing Gas alone does this for us, and I'd argue First Impression is an amazing way to prevent faster pivots from ever clicking Volt vs us or U-turn vs us.

3. How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?

Miasmaw was honestly at an excellent power level in the pre-dlc metagame. It was a niche pick that you ran with exactly the breakers that needed Regen mons chipped, and really opened up some fun offensive cores (see KerfMaw).

4. How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?

Frankly speaking, Miasmaw is not very strong currently. It does have minor use cases, eg KerfMaw is still technically viable (though it hard loses to Moltres), but in practical terms it cannot keep up with the drastically higher strength of the post-dlc metagame. I don't think this is necessarily due to its speed, as Nidoking is currently amazing and is slower than it, but rather the weakness it has towards the omnipresent fairy types, and the just mediocre bulk that Miasmaw has, esp w.r.t. stuff you'd like a dragon to switch into (Heatran). Also burns, Miasmaw really hates burns. Like, its issue with burns cannot be overstated with Scald spam and now Moltres in the meta.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

1. What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?
   Mias has been a very interesting experience and one that I thing paid off really well. Coming off Equal and Astro, we focused on making the Pokemon on the weaker side of things, but this didn't come at the expense of Mias being a lot of fun to use and being quite flexible in the approach. Even though we got a super unique but weird typing in Bug/Dragon, the CAP team made the most out of it making Mias quite unique. Huge shoutouts go to MrDollSteak for the stat spread stage and the artwork in general. Seriously, bug/drag got me hyped for the designs and I loved so many of them. Though Birkal and Shadow were my favs.
   
   In hindsight, I should have proposed ghost/electric for typing combo. Oh well.
   On a side note related to typing, the past couple of caps have been either dragon/fairy/steel. I get these types are super strong but some variety is appreciated. So for next CAP, lets try not to propose these typings immediately.
   The move pool I felt was extremely on point. Plenty of options to let us experiment but avoiding big moves like toxic and Knock Off (though I feel Knock off is pro concept?). Having a lot to work with and then consolidate it latter down is a great approach that will hopefully avoid needing to nerf anything (because nerfs are the worst).
   
   
2. Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?
   I think Mias did a great job of being an anti-pivot mon with a focus on wall breaking teleport and regenerators pivots.
   Its great at putting the opponent into hard hitting 50/50s due to its expansive move pool.
   But its not super splash able on any team and there is more to using it then just make your opponent guess what move you will throw out.
   The only thing I felt was a little flat was its viability as a mixed attacker. In general, I always have been cynical of mixed attacking spreads because the Pokemon will just run one attacking stat or the other but not both on the same set.
   Ex: :Scylant: has awesome physical attacking set (with CB and Mountaineer) or a strong special attacker with HDB and Compound eyes but never runs a mixed attacking set.
   
   But in the stat spread, it was clear the push was for the viability of a mixed attacker.
   In my experience, Ive tried to make Mixed Mias work, but its not as viable as a pure physical attacking set or CB set. And most Mias sets Ive seen are usually pure physical attacking sets. But to be fair, making a very viable but competitively balanced mixed attacker is a very tricky process.
   
   
3. How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?
   For better and for worse, Mias was tailored to meet the demands of the Pre-dlc meta. I have expressed my opinion before that when building a CAP, its important to look to the present but also to the future especially when DLC is confirmed to be coming out super soon and we have a general idea what to expect. But I aware that I have a minority opinion on this and people are sick of me bringing this point up.
   
   In the pre DLC2 Meta, Mias was great at handling the regenerators and wish teleports and created some interesting cores (most notably kerfluffle). Its speed was key at beating Rotom and really excelled without being to over bearing.
   
   Also, I know it wasn't meant to be a "lets fix the meta" concept, but at times it came off like that due to pivot heavy teams being extremely strong.
   
   
4. How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?
   Post DLC power creep completed turned the meta on its head and while Mias does like some parts about it, it suffers overall.
   I have looked through a lot of replays in the Mias play test tourney and post DLC and I barely have seen Mias in those replays.
   The meta is really fast and even some Pokemon archetypes Mias was made to beat, it actually struggles against.
   As far as Teleport Pivots are concerned, Clef being unbanned is a pain for Mias because it resist bug, immune to dragon, and OHKO with Moonblast.
   
   In terms of regenerators pivots, Tourn T outspeeds and proceeds to hurricane. You could try to lure it and zap with TBolt or Compound eyes Thunder but that requires a lot of SpA investment and if you run Compound Eyes, your giving away your plan which is counter productive with the set functioning on luring and zapping Torun T.
   
   + some of the threats it was meant to handle (Rotom and Zera) are no longer super relevant to the metgagame.
   
   Mias has competition from other Wall breakers and its speed is now below average meaning its easier to pressure.
   Its not that Mias is inherently bad or an error on our part, its just the meta we build it around and the meta its in are 2 radically different environments. And an environment Mias is not fully prepared for.

 

[MrDollSteak]

1. What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?
I think that Miasmaw's process was a very interesting one. It had a lot of controversial moments, and prompted a lot of fantastic discussion. I think much of this came from the rather open-ended nature of the concept itself which was fantastic, and the way that it was decided to deal with it, by narrowing in.

I think in comparison to both Equilibra and Astrolotl which felt like they were fairly straightforward processes and both resulted in overtuned Pokemon, the difference with process 28 was that during the concept assessment a particular niche was identified, namely punishing Teleport users and Regenerator users, that didn't leave much room for significant deviation in further stages. I believe that since Miasmaw was very tightly centered around punshing a strategy and the set of Pokemon that execute it, it was afforded a level of meta dependence that neither Equilibra or Astrolotl have and is in my opinion a far more interesting Pokemon because of it.

Overall, I think that what can be taken from CAP 28's project, is that a very open ended concept that is then compartmentalised and broken down into a particular niche is a great strategy going forward in terms of creating a unique and interesting Pokemon that isn't just generically good, while simultaneously being very good at what it does, and actually being fairly strong. To an extent I believe there was an element of undercompensation where particularly around the typing stage niche options were favored as a result of the power level of previous entrants, that ultimately ended up being beneficial in the long term as it was able to receive a powerful ability, a decent stat line and some powerful albeit specialised coverage options.

Separately from the actual end result of Miasmaw, I think CAP 28's time-boxed process was fantastic. It didn't lag, and discussions remained productive even with a fairly tight schedule. I think this suggests that timeboxing all future projects is not only possible, but potentially preferable, especially going into next year where it doesn't appear there will be too much significant change in regards to the actual Gen 8 meta, meaning that there could possibly be three processes instead of two.

2. Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?

Short and simply, yes. I will be somewhat merging my answer to the later questions in here as well, as I must confess I haven't played ALL too much with it. During the pre-DLC meta at the very least however, I think Miasmaw was a fantastic team option that successfully threatened the key pivots it was meant to, particularly Blissey, Toxapex and Slowking. Its mixed sets also worked much better than they appeared to on paper and allowed it to reliably threaten Tomohawk and Mandibuzz before its set was revealed, which also afforded its Band set more potency.

While it punished pivoting strategies quite effectively, or rather, was able to dismantle certain pivot cores, as others have mentioned, an unintended side effect of its ability to take on pivots in conjunction with its frailty, meant that it actually benefitted a lot from partnering up with its own pivots. Although this may seem to encourage pivots and therefore be anti-concept, I think that it still succeeded in the aim of being a 'roadblock' to pivoting, as it makes the act of pivoting more clumsy, and therefore more manageable for the team carrying it, whether or not they were using their own pivots too.

I think further proof of its successful execution as a concept, is seen in the fact that now that Teleporting and Regenerator based strategies are less common, it is also far less viable. Although it isn't single-handedly responsible for this meta change, it does suffer from it, in a somewhat symbiotic predator-prey relationship. Without its common prey, there isn't much reason to use it. Unfortunately because the meta is now based around faster pivoting, and particularly obnoxious VoltTurn users that it wasn't necessarily intended to counter, I believe it could be interpreted that it hasn't been successful as an anti-pivot, but I think this is actually a result of it being so successful in targeting the specific strategies that were determined in its concept assessment that it doesn't have the flexibility to punish the new defining pivot, Pheromosa.

 

[Voltage]

1. What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?

I think I can speak to this one as well. I know that a lot of the people involved will say that this process went incredibly smoothly with regards to timing and process, but one thing I think this process revealed are issues with the Topic Leadership Team as a whole, even if they ultimately had a small impact on the overall product. Through my own faults, I think that this process revealed a significant need for some kind of TLT onboarding process or manual so that those who are joining on for the first time can ultimately come onto the project ready to go. This is something snake and the rest of the mods have shown support for, and I hope that in my initial failing and misunderstandings as Ability leader in the first poll, that we can avoid this kind of mistake from happening in future processes.

This is far more of a PRC thing than anything else, but I think I speak for all of us when I say that we want our community to grow. By making TLT positions more approachable with some kind of manual for general "expectations" and "duties" that each role must satisfy, from the project leader to the Topic Leadership Team. It's something I'd be happy to help with down the line, but it's something that I believe needs addressing to futher ensure the stability and streamlining of the CAP Processes.

 

[Mx]

Alright, before we move on, I'd like to share some of my own thoughts:

What can we learn from Miasmaw, its concept, and execution?

I think Miasmaw proved to be a very different process. From its concept which could have been interpreted in many different ways, to its suboptimal typing, to its very mechanically unique ability, I think there's a ton of things we can learn from this.

On the typing, I have to admit I was a bit worried when Bug/Dragon was picked, but in the end I think it was a good pick and helped us a lot to maintain a reasonable scope for the concept. I know my decision to veto Electric/Fairy was pretty controversial, but I still stand by it. I believe that the Fairy typing didn't meaningfully relate to the targets we had chosen during concept assessment and risked derailing the whole process into another "counter the meta" CAP, something that I think was worrying given that our concept really lent itself for that kind of rabbit hole. All in all, I think having a typing with more weaknesses really opened up a lot of possibilities later and and while perhaps Bug/Dragon went a bit too far in the opposite direction, I still think it made for a much more interesting project.

Regarding ability, Neutralizing Gas was a fascinating pick and just trying to imagine how it would work on practice was a huge challenge, as the way it disables abilities like Regenerator is pretty much impossible to replicate. In practice I think it proved to be just as strong as it seemed and is probably the single most defining aspect of Miasmaw. That said, given the very offensive nature of Miasmaw, I think at some point in the future it might be worth exploring this ability again while taking a bulkier approach, as the way this ability would act there would be completely different in a very interesting way.

I think on retrospect we could have been a bit more looser on the stats limits. 350 BSR might have already been quite high, but most mixed spreads had to sacrifice Speed or Defense in a way that was unnecessary given the shortcomings of our typing, so while I'm happy with the stats we got, I think we could have pushed for higher stats without too many issues later.

Finally on moves, I think this was a pretty uneventful stage. Out of the many moves we discussed and discarded, I don't think there's anything I would have now preferred to add (at least when talking about the Pre DLC metagame). The preliminary movepool was a cool experiment that I'm glad we got to try, even if in the end I don't think I've ever seen any serious player using moves like Calm Mind, Bulk Up, or elemental fangs. That said, it's important to understand that the main reason why we were so open to moves like these was because Miasmaw looked to be a B-Rank mon, so there was little to no risk of going over the edge by adding some fringe moves. On a project with viability closer to something like Jumbao or Pajantom, we should have been much stricter with these inclusions, so I hope this is something we take into consideration for future projects.

Do you think Miasmaw accomplished its concept?

I think that Miasmaw's concept was a particularly complicated one, but, at least during the Pre DLC metagame, Miasmaw accomplished the goals we set up during Concept Assessment, being able to punish Slowking, Slowbro, and Blissey, while also targeting other bulky Regenerator pivots like Toxapex thanks to Neutralizing Gas, so I think it's safe to say we accomplished what we wanted.

How well do you think Miasmaw performed on the Pre-DLC metagame?

While Miasmaw lasted very little in the Pre-DLC metagame, I was overall pretty happy with its performance. It was certainly not a very splashable mon, as its awkward typing and middling speed meant that in many teams it was much easier to slap other Dragon-types like Kyurem, Hydreigon, or Pajantom; however, in the right build Miasmaw was still able to shine. Kerfluffle in particular was a very effective partner in my experience, as Miasmaw could easily wear down Regenerator pivots like Slowking, Toxapex, and Amoonguss, which would otherwise wall Kerfluffle.

How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?

Right now, I feel like Miasmaw is definitely not in a good place. Thanks to the power of Neutralizing Gas I still think its somewhat usable but it definitely feels more awkward than ever with the influx of new Fairy types like Clefable, Tapu Fini, Magearna, and Tapu Lele, better breakers available like Pheromosa, Spectrier, Nidoking, and Cinderace, and many other mons that give it trouble like Tornadus-T and Melmetal. I think this was inevitable, as there was no way for us to predict how much the Crown Tundra would change the metagame, so any attempt at preparing Miasmaw for it would have been just theorymoning, but this revision should be a good way to fix this, at least to some extent

As for what exactly is holding Miasmaw back, I think that the three mains flaws I see in Miasmaw right now are:

1. Four Moveslot syndrome: While Miasmaw has tons of coverage moves, it's really hard to find a coherent moveset for it. Dragon Hammer is Miasmaw's most reliable STAB move, Earthquake is important to hit Toxapex, Thunder/Thunderbolt is necessary to threaten Tomohawk, First Impression is needed to pressure faster threats, Iron Head is the only move that can deal with Clefable, and Taunt shuts down passive mons.
2. Awkward speed tier: Currently, it's way too easy to outspeed Miasmaw for its power level, so with some smart pivoting threats like Tapu Lele, Hydreigon, Krilowatt, and Urshifu can deal with it trivially. While there are other successful offensive Pokemon with similar Speed to Miasmaw like Nidoking and Excadrill, but those possess much better typings than Miasmaw.
3. Lack of defensive utility: When compared with other similar, Miasmaw really doesn't offer much to its team defensively. Other Dragon-types offer valuable resistance against threats like Heatran, which Miasmaw doesn't resist. Even against the typings it does resist, like Ground, Grass and Electric, Miasmaw's terrible physical bulk and susceptibility to passive damage make it very easy to overwhelm by the most common Pokemon of those typings like Landorus-T, Rillaboom and Krilowatt.

Alright, with that out of the way, I think it's time we move on to the next stage of this discussion

• Does Miasmaw need any changes? Why?
• If changes are needed, which ones would you propose?

 

[quziel]

As I said before, I think Miasmaw has four broad issues. Firstly, it cannot hit Fairy types, like, at all, and Fairy types, especially physically defensive Fairy types are hugely influential in the current meta, and I don't see them getting any worse in the future. I think that the way we could tackle this problem is one move, Gunk Shot. There are two major differences between Gunk Shot and Iron head, firstly it can hit Fairy types such as Tapu Fini and Primarina Super Effectively, which is not possible currently, secondly it allows Miasmaw to 2HKO Clefable without needing a boosting item, while giving a roll to OHKO. This may be overkill, but the mon is not good atm, so it would probably be ok. I wish there was a 100 Bp option here to not go overkill, but there is not, barring Meteor Mash (If I thought we could justify this from flavor I would prefer over Gunk Shot).

While it can easily go mixed to hit them, flying types are still a major issue for Miasmaw, albeit a far less serious one than Fairy types. Tomohawk, Mandibuzz, Moltres all cause it at least some issues, as it really cannot click its favorite First Impression button when they're around. I guess you could fix this with a move such as Stone Edge or Wild Charge, the latter of which I think is more feasible. This would allow for a bit more compression of moveslots, and would let you hit the more relevant Fini.

Thirdly, it is like, really not bulky to the point that it simply cannot be used to check the threats that dragon types are usually used to check. Barraskewda nearly OHKOs Miasmaw with Liquidation, which means that despite Miasmaw having a good matchup vs rain thanks to Ngas, it really struggles against the main Rain threat. Even defensive Heatran easily 2HKOs Miasmaw with Magma Storm, while Moltres has a roll to 2HKO it with Flamethrower. A tad more bulk, preferably on the special side would at least help Miasmaw to play the traditional dragon type role. I don't have a specific number.

Finally, Miasmaw, while not slow, is also not fast. While other wallbreakers, eg Nidoking, also have this curse, it being slower than the base 90s is a bit painful. That said, the amount of speed needed to really impact this aspect of Miasmaw is pretty intense (You'd need to be above or at 95 to really add more threats you force out). I don't think this is the solution.

My preferred solution is adding one more coverage move, preferably Wild Charge, and just a tad more bulk on the special or physical side.

 

[MrDollSteak]

Going to echo what quziel has identified in terms of the major flaws that Miasmaw currently has in the meta. As far as fixing them, I personally don't think that changing its stats is the best option here. I think that giving it more bulk would probably help it, but at the end of the day it wasn't really determined during its concept assessment and stat limits discussion that a bulky approach would be helpful, and as such I think to hit the particular numbers we want we will ultimately be seeing some rather major stat changes.

In regards to Speed, which I think is probably the easiest stat to tweak in terms of preserving its playstyle and role, we do take a bit of a risk, as I agree with quziel that where it will realistically need to be taken in order to be considered over other wall breakers is the 95-99 range, wherein it could easily be too powerful depending on exactly which number is chosen. That said, I think this is one change that offers the best chance of making Miasmaw a solid choice for teams without being obnoxious or impossible to deal with as its still incredibly flimsy and easily chipped.

The other change that is intuitive, is tackling its inability to deal with Fairy and certain Flying types. As mentioned by Mx, it's 4MSS is already quite real, so adding new powerful coverage options is realistically something that will already be somewhat balanced. That being said, I don't think it necessarily needs to gain coverage options to address both fairies and flying types in order to be a little bit more viable, either or should be fine. I personally believe that Poison coverage is the most important for us to receive, because as quziel has identified, mixed sets can already somewhat deal with flying types. I think that adding physical poison coverage in terms of Poison Jab and Gunk Shot should be enough to make Miasmaw viable without needing any further changes and without propelling the mon into the S ranks. While Gunk Shot is an incredibly powerful move Miasmaw will still have to face the whole other slew of problems that it currently faces. That said, I think it provides enough raw damage against the common Fairies to justify its inclusion on a team, and crucially does not outpace Dragon Hammer as a neutral hit on other targets. I think it will also do much to boost the viability of the Band set in particular, as the move will allow it to score some crucial OHKOs on Tapu Fini and Clefable without being impossible to play around as it locks you into a hard switch afterwards if they have a Steel type and can be scouted by common checks like Tomohawk and Mandibuzz anyway.

In regards to Wild Charge, although it isn't a new coverage type and has its fair set of drawbacks in regards to recoil and won't be broken, I worry that it will either encourage purely physical sets to be run over mixed sets, which would then invalidate quite a large part of its process, or not be powerful enough to justify over Thunderbolt or Thunder. It also I think will make the Band set a lot more difficult to play around, as it would similarly to Gunk Shot allow it to take on Tapu Fini, however, there won't be one single Pokemon that could scout all of its potential banded attacks in the way that Tomohawk and Mandibuzz currently can, apart from say Hippowdown, who is actually 2HKOd by Megahorn anyway, meaning that a misprediction on the part of the opponent will likely result in a dead Pokemon.

In conclusion, I see there being two possible changes that would push Miasmaw up to where it needs to function, at least as a niche pick, and that is a Speed increase of between 6 and 10 stat points, OR, the addition of Gunk Shot (and Poison Jab). I personally prefer the second option, because I think it will do the most to preserve Miasmaw's current playstyle, and runs the least amount of risk of beating too many new Pokemon as a consequence, because it is very targeted in what it hits, which is namely Tapu Fini, Tapu Koko, Primarina and Clefable, and doesn't do much to beat other neutral matchups in comparison to the implications of a speed tier change.

 

[Darek]

I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said as of now for the other 3 questions, so I mainly want to focus on this one:

How well do you think Miasmaw performs now?

I'll agree that Miasmaw isn't the best right now, but I can't say that it's bad and necessarily needs to be buffed. Neutralizing Gas gives it a niche unique to itself in denying Regenerator healing from the Slows and Toxapex and Natural Cure from Blissey(although technically Weezing and Weezing-G can do it too, Miasmaw does it much better), which often plays a key role in breaking defensive cores, as well as significantly deterring the spammability of Futureport from the Slows. Sure, it matches up poorly against Fairies but I don't think that Miasmaw needs to do well against them in order to be effective. Even though Clefable is able to switch in, utility is still gained by preventing a Slow from healing.

That being said, I don't think that giving Miasmaw extra coverage is the way to go. Sure, Gunk Shot and Wild Charge would be useful, but I'd rather have Miasmaw stay targeted in its role of denying Regenerator than to be an outright wallbreaker. As of now, banded Miasmaw is still able to pretty much muscle past every mon besides Tapu Fini and Corviknight, and I fear the addition of Gunk Shot and/or Wild Charge will add such devastating power without the commitment necessary of a Choice Band. I believe its main role should be to support offensive pivots and other breakers by denying Regenerator healing to their checks and still maintaining an offensive presence. With this in mind, I believe the greatest challenge to Miasmaw fulfilling its idealized role would be as Quziel mentioned, scald burns. If we are to buff Miasmaw I think the addition of Aromatherapy/Heal Bell or Psycho Shift(or even Jungle Healing if we are willing) to Miasmaw's movepool would be the way to go.

In regard to stats, I will admit that its defenses are somewhat lacking, although with its current stats and typing it can still switch in on the Slows(besides Scald burns) and Equilibra quite consistently. I wouldn't mind a SpDef buff but I don't think it's a necessity. As for speed, I feel pretty similar. Its speed isn't great, but I can't really visualize what I would want to increase its speed by. I suppose outspeeding the likes of Landorus-T, Jumbao, and maybe even Urshifu would be nice, but at the same time I don't find outspeeding any of these targets particularly necessary to fulfilling what Miasmaw should be doing. While I can't outright object these buffs, I can't say I support them either.

TL;DR I don't think Miasmaw is that bad or that it really needs buffs. If we decide to buff it, then I propose we give it a move to cure status.

 

[Mx]

First of all, here's my personal opinions on possible changes for Miasmaw. In general, I think that Miasmaw doesn't really need much, but it would benefit greatly from a few minor buffs to adapt to the post DLC metagame, as there has been tons of changes that are very unfavorable to it. Now, as for the specific buffs:

Poison coverage: Gunk Shot has been one of the most discussed changes and it's not hard to see why. Miasmaw currently has a pretty hard time fitting everything it wants into its four moveslots, so a move like this would be great to fix that, as Dragon Hammer + Gunk Shot + EQ/CC hits a huge portion if the meta while also fishing for Poison to wear down neutral targets like Moltres and Mandibuzz. Personally, I really dislike this because I think that it really changes the way Miasmaw plays by giving it significantly more freedom and also makes most special sets way less attractive by making physical sets the superior option. If we want to add Poison coverage, I think Poison Jab + Sludge Bomb is a much better choice, as is a more minor upgrade that preserves Miasmaw's set variety much better.

Speed increase: In terms of raw effectiveness, this is probably the most optimal upgrade to give Miasmaw, as a Speed buff is huge for an offensive threat. I also like how this wouldn't really change the variety of the sets in the way Gunk Shot does. That said, given the current chaotic state of the meta, it's really hard to judge how this would play out and doing this could easily push Miasmaw's viability way more than we expect. Some people talked about a +10 increase to be faster than Hydreigon, but I think that would really be overkill. +7 Speed, which would outspeed Colossoil, is in my opinion a much more reasonable buff if we chose this route. A +3 Speed increase to outspeed Landorus-T with max investment and Heatran with a neutral nature could also be a minor but welcomed buff if implemented alongside something else.

Other moves: Stone Edge, Wild Charge, Aromatherapy have seen some discussion. I think that out of those, I'd personally only consider adding Aromatherapy as having a niche way to bypass burns could be decent if you manage to fit it in. I really don't see much point in adding the other too, as they only cover very specific targets and Miasmaw already has a very wide array of niche coverage moves.

Alright, with that out of the way, I think it's time we start wrapping up this stage. To decide on which changes will be made to Miasmaw, we'll have two polls, first one for major changes and then one for minor ones. Here's the list of changes I'm currently considering sending to a poll:

Major changes:

• +7 Speed (96 Spe, outspeeding Landorus-T, Colossoil, and Tapu Lele)
• +Gunk Shot
• +Poison Jab and Sludge Bomb
• No major changes

Minor Changes:

• +3 Speed
• +Aromatherapy
• No Minor Changes

This thread will end in 72 hours. You have until then to discuss on these proposed changes.

 

[Pipotchi]

Id be happy to leave miasmaw as is for now (assuming trimming more moves is off the table?). Its arrived at an awkward time and the meta hasnt settled yet, with huge players still on the verge of leaving the tier. Miasmaw in the damagecalc has a major dislike for Clefable (however, can be an important part of a team's strategy to defeat it with poison + neutgas) and can 2hko all of the problematic fairies with the right set (tapu fini is 2hkod by a special attacking thunderbolt, magearna destroyed by eq, even clef is ohkod after rocks with a banded iron tail). The impression that I get is that if you want to build around Miasmaw you 100% can, and I think we made a niche wallbreaker as intended.. Similar to something like Crawdaunt it may find time to shine in future metas without touching it, as it has a great weather and pivotspam matchup.

 

[quziel]

I agree with the slate as it is, with emphasis on the "do nothing". I also agree with pip; realistically all Miasmaw needs is to wait 4 days (aka Mosa leaving), and for the meta to get into a slower/bulkier state. That said, Sludge Bomb and/or PJab are great additions that would make the special set run a teensy bit more efficiently, which they sorta need given how awkward they are (this also adds literally no new targets, Draco/Flash/Tbolt vs Draco/Sludge/Epower isn't a massive change).

I'd also like to petition for a bit of the fat to be cut out; Miasmaw has 1000 options available, and honestly, having a few less wouldn't hurt it much at all and would make it a bit of a less of a pain to prep for, and would help new users (Oops CM Miasmaw). I'd nominate cutting Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and a few of the weirder coverage moves (Giga Drain, Shadow Ball, etc.)

 

[Mx]

I agree with the slate as it is, with emphasis on the "do nothing". I also agree with pip; realistically all Miasmaw needs is to wait 4 days (aka Mosa leaving), and for the meta to get into a slower/bulkier state. That said, Sludge Bomb and/or PJab are great additions that would make the special set run a teensy bit more efficiently, which they sorta need given how awkward they are (this also adds literally no new targets, Draco/Flash/Tbolt vs Draco/Sludge/Epower isn't a massive change).

I'd also like to petition for a bit of the fat to be cut out; Miasmaw has 1000 options available, and honestly, having a few less wouldn't hurt it much at all and would make it a bit of a less of a pain to prep for, and would help new users (Oops CM Miasmaw). I'd nominate cutting Bulk Up, Calm Mind, Swords Dance, and a few of the weirder coverage moves (Giga Drain, Shadow Ball, etc.)

Please remember that a the main reason why Miasmaw has such a wide movepool now is because its movepool is still on its preliminary stage. Once this revision is implemented and we formally have a 2.0 release for Miasmaw, many of the moves you mention like Bulk Up, Calm Mind, and Giga Drain will be removed. You can check Miasmaw's final movepool here. That said, I wouldn't really mind removing SD, as that move has proven to be really disappointing in practice and just serves to bloat Miasmaw's movepool.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

The speed buff and Gunk Shot would be very appreciated but I would wait a bit right now on a poll.
Assuming Phero gets banned this meta will likely shift toward a bit slower and defensive teams which are teams Mias is build to break.

I do think Mias would appreciate some buffs because the meta its in is way stronger than the meta it was built for, but with a big thing like Phero getting banned, its always best to wait a little and see what happens.

 

[Mx]

The speed buff and Gunk Shot would be very appreciated but I would wait a bit right now on a poll.
Assuming Phero gets banned this meta will likely shift toward a bit slower and defensive teams which are teams Mias is build to break.

I do think Mias would appreciate some buffs because the meta its in is way stronger than the meta it was built for, but with a big thing like Phero getting banned, its always best to wait a little and see what happens.

While I understand that this is not an ideal time to be making changes, assuming that Pheromosa gets banned the metagame is not going to stabilize for at least a couple of weeks and this could be further complicated by new suspect tests, so we can't really afford to wait until that. It's true that Miasmaw might improve after the next meta shift, but if that's a worry, I'd rather just be more conservative with the changes and avoid stuff like adding Gunk Shot or increasing Speed than delay this any further.

Also, due to some unexpected rl life commitments I'm going to be delaying deadline for a few hours, so consider this the formal 24 hours warning before the end of this discussion. I'd still like to see a bit more discussion about the proposed slate, the possibility of removing Sword Dance, and other possible changes, so if you have any thoughts about those please post them.

 

[MrDollSteak]

In regards to set up like Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, although they aren't commonly run, I wouldn't classify them as bloat moves. They're fairly common on Pokemon as TMs and TRs and I dont think its actively harmful to keep it on in terms of either flavour or competitive battling.

 

[dex]

I could see the argument for removing Swords Dance if Miasmaw gets the +7 Speed, but I don't think Nasty Plot should be removed. If any "bloat" move should be removed, it should be Bulk Up, which is never used.

 

[Amamama]

Bulk Up and Calm Mind can definitely be removed in my opinion, since the bulk increase doesn’t help Miasmaw and the +1attack is not threatening enough to be worth a turn.
I also think that swords dance isn’t that important, since miasmaw is easily forced out so hitting a switch in immediately is almost always preferable, to at least force a recovery move or leave the target open to be threatened by another mon.
If we were to increase its speed I can see SD being better especially with +7.
Nasty plot on the other hand feels necessary, even if it’s not on the best sets, it can make for some strong lure sets, that force the opponent to scout moves. Before sending in a usual resist like Corvi or Moltres etc.
I also think giving out gunk shot should not be a problem, since Miasmaws 4mss is very real, and while it forces more scouting on the side of the opponent, it also forces real consideration in the builder, for what you want to break.
In terms of speed boost I personally like the +7 since outspeeding Lele and Colossoil is a big boost to viability, even though both can run scarf sets. Bao might be a bit different, since I don’t know how often max speed is run without scarf.
That said, Miasmaw saw more usage in the snake draft, than one should expect of a c rank mon, being able to threaten a lot of fat builds in one mon, while adding a good option against rain teams.
This means a plus 7 could easily be an overkill, since suddenly also faster build could have trouble facing it. So +3 is definitely the safer option.
I think that regardless of other buffs ,this small speed boost is the option I definitely want to see, outspeeding all rattan except Scarf even with a neutral nature is huge, while being able to threaten Landorus more easily is definitely a boost to viability, mostly, because Miasmaw could work as a pretty good anti lead against common hazard setters, which fits well for its purpose of slowing pivoting strategies.

Tldr: I definitely want to see a +3 speed boost on the slate, as well as the option for poison type coverage.
While I like the +7 speed boost, I can understand the concerns with it, so slating it should only. E an option with wider support.

 

[the mystery duck]

I support the options in the proposed major and minor changes in post #14 except Gunk Shot, which I think is too strong. Can we have an option for both +3 speed and Aromatherapy in the minor changes poll if "no major changes" wins the first poll? I also disagree with removing Swords Dance, like MrDollSteak, as I do not consider it a bloat move. Moreover, any of the proposed changes could significantly affect the move's usage on Miasmaw. This, to me, seems more reason to keep it. In regards to "bloatiness", Miasmaw's final movepool plus the zero to three possible move additions from the proposed changes gives us between 69 to 72 moves. This does not strike me as a bloated number, which would be 80+ moves.

 

[SunMYSER]

I'm going to come right out and say it: Compound Eyes sucks. Mias' secondary ability is completely outclassed by it's primary. it's initial addition was to add to Miasmaw's repertoire, specifically giving it access to more powerful, yet normally less reliable coverage moves (Iron Tail, Thunder). However, it finds itself trading powerful coverage for the ability to perform it's role properly.

Without Ngas, Miasmaw becomes even more 4ms bloated than before, as it is no longer able to hit many things through their abilities. Physical Sets have to juggle Dragon Hammer, Iron Tail, Close Combat, EQ, and First Impression; whereas special sets now need to include Focus Blast and Thunder into it's already stuffy movepools.

It also just dead loses to mons that rely on their abilities. Levitators like Equil and the rotoms float over Earth Powers and EQs, and Regen mons are free to switch out. Even Intimidate Tomo can beat Physical CE Miasmaw 1v1 without bringing awkward coverage.

Furthermore, while special sets get arguably get more out of CE, after a Nasty plot, the move base power rarely matters.

+2 252 SpA Miasmaw Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Toxapex: 264-312 (86.8 - 102.6%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Miasmaw Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 120 SpD Equilibra: 250-296 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


As such, I think an interesting replacement that would still maintain viability in the face of Ngas, while still keeping true to it's concept is Flare Boost. Flare boost boosts the power of special attacks by 1.5x while burned. This gives Miasmaw's secondary ability a way of differentiating itself from Ngas. Unlike it's primary ability, Flare Boost would allow Mias to freely switch in to burn inducers like Pex, the Slows and a predicted Scorching Sands from Moltres.

Flare Boost' power increase would immediately increase Miasmaw's power, justifying it's use on special sets over Ngas; something CE has done none of.

 

[Rabia]

I can really vibe with Flare Boost; Compound Eyes actually has no practical use, and while I don’t think Flare Boost would be some insane addition that solves Miasmaw’s issues, it fits the design and concept quite well and has more practicality than Compound Eyes.