CAP 28 - Part 5 - Stat Limits Discussion

[Quanyails]

CAP 28 So Far

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This next stage is Stat Limits, and it's very important! Our Stats Leader, who will be leading this stage, is MrDollSteak, so make sure that your posts are generally directed towards him and the questions he asks. MrDollSteak will be deciding the stat limits for CAP 28 at the conclusion of this thread, based on community input. This is NOT the place where we actually submit stats. That will come later.

These limits will help to define what we consider when making and talking about stat spreads for CAP 28. We will look at limits to CAP 28's physical and special attacking prowess, its physical and special tanking capabilities, and the overall power of its stats.

This is a relatively tricky stage of the process if you're not familiar with what it is we're doing and why we're doing it. For that reason, we strongly encourage those who intend to participate to read the entire OP thoroughly and ask questions where needed.

Please do not poll jump by talking about specific stat spreads or suggesting specific abilities.

Be forewarned that there is no poll for this stage of the CAP. The Stats Leader will decide the stat limits for the CAP upon the conclusion of this thread.

Stat Bias Limits

Stat bias limits set the general stat bias of a Pokemon from an offensive and defensive standpoint. Stat biases are not solely for limiting stats, but they also describe the overall build of the Pokemon in offensive and defensive terms. However, the stat spread is the only part of the project that will be constrained by Stat Bias Limits. There will be four stat biases selected and a total Base Stat Rating (BSR) limit. The Stat Biases are:

Physical Tankiness (PT)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical defense.​

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Physical Sweepiness (PS)

The rating of the Pokémon's physical offense.​

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Special Tankiness (ST)

The rating of the Pokémon's special defense.​

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Special Sweepiness (SS)

The rating of the Pokémon's special offense​

A spreadsheet for calculating the ratings can be found here. To use it for yourself, create an editable copy with File > Make a copy. If you don't have a spreadsheet program, OpenOffice and Google Sheets are free.

If you're a newer member of CAP, we highly recommend that you do some good lurking during this stage in the process. Read this page thoroughly to understand what exactly we're doing here. If you're still confused, check out some of the old Stat Limits Discussion threads for past CAPs in the CAP Process Archive. If you're still uncomfortable with posting here, then we suggest you watch how experienced users post; you can learn a lot from them!

 

[MrDollSteak]

Hello everyone! I'm looking forward to leading our Stats stage. It's been a very interesting process so far, and I hope to continue that momentum. As a reminder, we are on a relatively tight schedule with CAP 28, and as such I am aiming to have this thread concluded in roughly four days time, which according to GMT would be 6AM Sunday.

First up, we have our Stat Bias Limits. For those that are unfamiliar with the stage, our Stat Bias Limits are not the same as our Base Stats, and as such I encourage you to read through the resources in the OP about Stat Bias Limits and BSR before posting.

Before we start making any suggestions it will be important to determine the direction that we want to take CAP 28 in, in terms of its stats now that we have Neutralising Gas to complement our Bug / Dragon typing. I've come up with a few questions to be the basis for our early discussions that I would like you all to address before we go any further in terms of potential limits and BSRs.

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

 

[aaronarium]

1. I think Neutralizing Gas frees up our offensive options significantly. By nixing the defensive benefits of Regenerator, we can force Slowtwins to rely on Slack Off for recovery, which is suboptimal for its drain on momentum. Therefore we don't need a huge bias to plow our way through them. I think mixed is a sensible route to threaten the gamut of Slowtwins, Blissey, Hippo, Rotom-W/H, etc. A special bias could be good though, to work around Scald burns, since our ability doesn't take care of that. BUT a physical bias could also help us with our goal of immediately forcing out Blissey.

2. The biggest benchmark I would say is at least 2HKOing Slowtwins. Without Regenerator, this mercifully doesn't require too much minmaxing. To give an example, a 105 base stat 252 Life Orb Leech Life is a sure 2HKO on 252/252+ HDB Slowbro. I say 2HKO because if we OHKO them, it occurred to me that that could promote them hard switching (thereby pivoting). If they know they'll be killed, they likely will want to evacuate, even without Regen. But if they know they could survive a hit, you could in theory dissuade the pivot by making them decide between switching and getting a hit in.

3/4. Being generally nonplussed by Future Sight and Scald (outside of burns) will be important for bulk, and since our typing helps up with situational switchins like Tang and Rillaboom, a special bulk bias I think would be good to hold our own better against Slowtwins + Rotom-H. Would just have to be careful about fortifying ourselves too much against supposed checks/counters like Dragapult, Toge, and Kerfluffle.

 

[theotherguytm]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent

In order to not only break the Slowtwins, but have a better shot at breaking Steels like Ferrothorn and Nerfilibra, a special bias seems the way to go. We avoid burns from Scalds and Scorching Sands etc, and the only real price to pay is being relatively Blissey-weak, which is easily fixable with certain moves, our Ability, and/or just enough mixed firepower.

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

Obviously 2HKOing Blissey is a good start, though after some thought, not necessarily mandatory. I think with Ngas removing Regen recovery, our basic benchmark should be being able to KO the Slowtwins after a given amount of chip, which as long as we can keep switching into them, essentially removes them from the game. One thing I'd like to be able to consider doing is being able to hurt Physically Defensive Toxapex. I think a good minimal benchmark for that is being able to 2HKO after Rocks and 1 Spike, while we also prevent Regenerator recovery.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

I think our bulk requirements come from three things: Future Sight, Knock Off and Earthquake. Future Sight is obviously a given, due to us wanting to repeatedly abuse the Slowtwins, but it's harder to account for since we'll be taking another hit at the same time.
Knock Off is a huge one. If we want to switch into Tangrowth or Toxapex we obviously have to be ready to take a Knock, but having Rillaboom also on our switch-ins list means we have to be wary of a Banded, fully invested Knock from a mon with a lot of ATK. This is something I'd like ask for opinions on: should we be able to take that Knock and deal with Boots lose and massive damage, or should we ask a teammate to scout its Choice lock? Acrobatics sets are also a concern here too.
Finally, we resist Earthquake. We should be able to switch into things like Defensive Kommo, Hippo, possibly Smoko that hasn't clicked Flare Blitz, maybe even taking Equilibra's nerfed Earth Powers. Basically, if it forgoes Rock coverage, it should be a switch-in for us. Our typing does have some boons.

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

So with all that in mind, it depends how ambitious we want to be. There's several "stretch goals" here like Smoko, Libra and Rillaboom that obviously demand a certain level of bulk so we don't drop to coverage or secondary STABs. But overall, I think a leaning towards the Special side should help deal with Future Sight, Rotom-Forms and so on.

 

[Orig Stall Guy]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

Its time. The best part of the CAP Process has finally came! Looking forward to having MrDollSteak as Stat Leader.

1) CAP 28 should be primarily a physical attacker. Our main goal is to beat teleport pivots in the fatties and the slows. The fatties can only be hammered by strong physical offense, has weaker physical bulk, and slowbro should be hit on its spd.
Outside of those targets, Rotoms def stats are the same, is weak to special attacks, Cyc is weak against special attacks, Hippo is weak to special attacks.
But the problem with a physical attacker is the chance of scald burns. Thats why Storm Drain and abilities like that were discussed by Neutralizing Gas won instead. Oh well. What was people expecting?
I think a special biased mixed attacker route with the power/coverage to beat fatties would be a great alternative route to pure physical attacker.
But in general, I don't like mixed attackers unless I have a complete understand of move pool.

2) Most important benchmarks to me is a 2HKO on
and OHKO std Spd slows outright
and maybe OHKO after some chip (say 1 layer of rocks/spikes).
With gas preventing Regenerator, a little chip is quite possible. Those are the main targets the concept was meant to address, it should have the proper firepower to beat them.

3) Cant think of a specific level, but the ability to come in on ground moves and not take a ton of dmg from them seems good to me for now. This is something I don't have a clear answer for.

4) I think the majority of Pokemon on the switch in/pressure list are special attackers. Slows, Tang, Rotom, Hydreigon, Kyurem, cyc, Equal, tomo, reunicilus, alakazam, so a special def bias seems like a great way to go. Also, an ability to take a Doom or Future sight no comepetly killing us is the best approach with this mon. But a more balanced bulk spread for general versatility isn't a bad idea either.

 

[Pipotchi]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

There is room for us to take any of these routes forward. For me, physical elements (pure physical and maybe mixed) are always going to be best because Blissey and Chansey exist and they tend to be a free switchin/teleport to special Pokemon (and im not seeing anything in our current wheelhouse that would let us tackle that like a gengar or sub kyurem might). This means we have a big issue with Tomohawk, but more on that later. Pure physical is imo best option, as it has the most pro-concept interactions. also for the record a lot of mixed attackers tend to flop with offensive pkmn, they are stretched massively between their stats and investments. they almost always need to rely on STAB mixed attacks also, which is not the case for our bug which would want to use a non-stab physical move if targeting Blissey/Chansey for instance.
The switch from Blissey to Chansey is also not as heinous as i think people are making out and if we just make Blissey get replaced by Chansey to tank a super weak physical fighting move its still a flop imo.

On the topic of "oh no, burns!": we can be brought in safely, on a double, come in on future sight (which is pressed considerably more often) avoid scald burn 70% or have ourselves or teammates remove it.

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

• 2hkoing Tomohawk with a SE coverage move without a boosting item
• threatening to OHKO slowking with at least one set
• being able to 2hko slowbro without a boosting item
• 2hko Blissey without a boosting item

since physically leaning is best, we need to handle blissey and tomohawk while also beating slows.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

• survive zeraora knock off into close combat
• have a chance to survive 2 slowking uninvested ice beams

honestly this is the least important aspect of the cap. the only offensive mon that our typing is geared to handle is zeraora, and thats fairly weak so we dont need a lot of invest to avoid its 2hko. avoiding 2hkos from things like kril is definitely too much to be mandatory and i think now we have neutralizing gas, that level of bulk is far too much. rest of our targets are very weak and id only be worried about ice type tech on slows.

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

leaning spdef is the way to go. it will give us a couple more switchins/the ability to stay in vs a few more special attacking defensive mons that the tier is filled with. We wont be able to stay in vs things like Tomo/Libra with most sets regardless, but being able to tank a Future Sight without taking 80% will be a big boon with regards to getting stuff done when we finally find a switchin.

 

[Galvanatic]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

1: A mixed attacking route might be the most fruitful option, since many of our situational switch-ins are proficient in one of the defensive stats.

2: I agree in that we need to at least 2HKO Blissey, the Rotom appliances, and either Slow brother. 2HKOing Tangrowth and Amoonguss is also going to be a big help for this concept, though achieving this benchmark on the latter will likely require super effective coverage (even with a boosting item, it's a tall order without a SE move). Finally, if we want to pressure Tomohawk and Mandibuzz, 2HKOing them may be a must.

3: The only pressing benchmarks would be to come into Band Rillaboom's Wood Hammer, uninvested Scald + Future Sight and Rotom's Overheat. I think we also should have "enough" bulk to go down against two uninvested Jumbao Moonblasts if we want to have bulky variants check us. Like Pip said, a lot of our switch-ins aren't particularly strong and having a ton of bulk may be going too far. Taking two Band Rillaboom Knock Offs or two Krillowatt Ice Beams may be too unrealistic to meet.

4: Special bias all the way. While we should have enough bulk to take more than one Wood Hammer, taking the Scald+Future Sight combo reliably is going to be massive.

 

[Amamama]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

Looking at our most important target (and) a good physical Offense statline should be mandatory.
Being able to OHKO a specially defensive Slowking with Megahorn should be achievable, the threshold to 2HKO lies just below that so if we achieve the first we also hit the second.
OHKOing other variants of or even on the physical side is too much to ask imo.
Our special offenses need similar or even slightly higher power level imo, since our bug Stab is considerably weaker on that side and I think 2hkoing special defense on the special side should be mandatory to ease building Sets and preparing for different slows with this mon, because it’s pretty unlikely that we will run two bug stabs in one set.
I also think that putting high pressure on other regenarator mons like and is easier to achieve on the special side.
Now that we block their regenator having the ability to hit those two for a good amount of damage looks very tempting.
threatening a two hit ko with Draco even with a drop seems like reaching but even doing 50% damage to them on one hit could make a lasting impression
A 2hko on with Draco would be another interesting benchmark to hit.

Hitting all these benchmarks sets us up to have a decently strong mixed attacker with maybe a slight bias towards Spa.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

I think having a good bulk overall should be a requirement since we are going to have to take several hits coming in repeatedly, while having to deal with our rocks weakness.
Important benchmarks on the physical side could be avoiding a 2hko from 2 knocks and one stealth rock, so that we can switch into it at least twice, patching up our matchup with it.
a slightly higher benchmark could be avoiding a 2hko by s iron head if we still have our boots, to shift that matchup in our interest. Within that limit would also lie, being able to take a knock into fire lash from all Sets.
These are I think the highest requirements and should only be necessary in a pinch rather than enableing us to switch into these three mons throughout the game.

On the Special side The highest benchmark to reach that seems interesting is taking two LO boosted ice beams from ,which would make that MU considerably better.
Within that limit also lies not being 3hkoed by s Flash cannon, which is always nice.
With that amount of Special bulk we would dodge OHKOs from and even with rocks up though, which might be too much.
So a lower benchmark could be avoiding a 2hko from a Slowbrothers Ice Beam
I don’t think future sight is easy to find a good benchmark for since it’s always coupled with a second hit that we don’t have much control over and Scald doesn’t do much except burning us so it’s of no real interest here.
One thing that might have to be considered later for our bulk spreads, is the fixed damage of s Seismic Toss.

All in all decent defensive stats with a clear special bias, would be the bestimo.

 

[Zephyri]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

People have said this already but i think a mixed attacker with a physical bias might be the way to go here (think astro or dragapult). A fairly good PS is necessary to beat Slowking and Blissey, while SpAtk would be useful specifically for Tomohawk

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

The ones I find to be necessary are:
- Being able to OHKO sp.def with Megahorn
- Being able to 2HKO with First Impression (being able to 2HKO our unresisted pressure list with FI would be nice in general)
- Being able to 2HKO with a physical move
- Being able to OHKO with Bug Buzz and 2HKO and with a move (idk about the bias here)

The ones I find possible/interesting are:
-2HKOing with Draco Meteor
-OHKOing with bug buzz
-2HKOing with Draco Meteor

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

Honestly i think being able to take 2 Knock Offs from Zera after rocks is kinda... enough? Most of our other MUs are against very bulky pokemon, so i don't think bulk is a huge issue here

 

[Dogfish44]

Neutralising Gas picking up a win is useful, as it pulls a lot of stress off of our statline.

Offensive Biasing
I think we realistically have two things we need to do - we need to be doin enough damage to Slowbro/King that they can't use us to spam Slack Off (I think aiming for at very least 60% with HDB is a noble target), whilst also being able to prevent Blissey from sitting on us.

The Slows, by the nature of "Scald Exists", are something we should realistically wish to aim for with a Special offensive bias - even though we're going to be running into their relatively high Special Bulk, that's kind of something we're gonna have to live with. It is worth noting that I suspect with the Slows it will be a case of dealing constant chip damage over the course of the match - when Slows have to click Slack Off to heal purely because of our presence, we're doing the right thing.

So, of course, when we need a Special bias, Blissey pops up. Now, Blissey is a strange case in that there are a few ways for us to handle it. The most obvious is a Physical bias - or, at least, enough Physical power to be able to go quasi-mixed with something like SubPunch or other strong Fighting coverage. However, I've been a long time advocate of the many other options we have in terms of handling Blissey, ranging from the moves that target the Defence without using CAP28's Atk Stat (Body Press and Secret Sword are both notable options here), or using disabling options such as Taunt to reduce the liability of Blissey to be useful at all.

That said, I think Physical approaches are fine - I just don't happen to like them. So I'd be willing to make the argument that both offenses should have viable stat biases, however I'd also reckon that Physical should be lower than Special - if nothing else, because Physical options present so much more raw power to begin with.

Targets
Some of this will come from movepool, but I think "Should be able to, even after a Scald burn, be capable of 2HKOing Slowking/Slowbro" is a good target, as is "Should be able to 2HKO Blissey if not burnt" - I don't think we need to combine the two of "Must 2HKO both Blissey and Slowking/Slowbro even when burnt" (Even if I think it would be nice and that we can certainly do that), as teams combining the two are not outrageously common, AND

Defensive Biasing
Our major switch ins all lean towards Special attacks... or Seismic Toss. This leads to a slight preference for Special Bulk - though not a massive one in the grand scheme of things - and for a high HP to Defense Ratio. Alas, the BSR calc doesn't demonstrate that well, but I digress ^^;.

Targets
I think some of the basic targets are useful - "don't get mauled" is a way to sum it up, but some of the 2HKOs to avoid seem sensible enough.

Instead I'll be slightly bold here and ask for a thought - how bulky do we think would be too bulky to justify Recover et al. as being balanced? From what I can tell, Neutralising Gas is an ability that, with our typing, wants us to switch into low-damage attacks like Scald quite often, and I don't think it'd be unreasonable to say that Recover would be useful to handle minor wear and tear - but at the same time I don't want us to create what would amount to a bulky pivot, even if it is an anti-pivot of sorts. As such, whilst I think Bulk limits shouldn't be set so low that we are locked into recovery as a mandate, I do want to discuss what's going to be appropriate upper limits for people who do think recovery outside Leech Life is a good idea - because that's going to be relevant when making sets I reckon.

In Short: Special Offenses should be a priority (though allow for Mixed), Bulk should focus on being workable with a minor Special bias and high HP, though NGas does sort of point towards recovery and I want to make sure we do have notes for people who like that as an option.

 

[dex]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

1. I do believe that mixed has to be the way to go. While I think CAP28 should be specially leaning, it should have the physical stats to meaningfully pressure with coverage. Otherwise, a special attacker is preferred to deal with and Intimidate.

2. Being able to do +50% with Close Combat to
Being able to do +50% with Bug Buzz to
Being able to OHKO with Bug Buzz
Being able to do +50% with Draco Meteor to
Being able to do +50% with Flamethrower/Thunderbolt to
Being able to do +50% with Bug Buzz to and , or OHKO with coverage.

3. CAP28 should not be hugely pressured out by Future Sight from . Additionally, being able to take 2 Fire Lashes at 50% would be incredibly helpful. should not be able to pressure CAP28 with Plasma Fists, and CAP28 should be able to live one Wicked Blow from . This suggests that CAP28 will need to be fairly bulky in order to deal with the pivots it's designed to deal with.

4. I think CAP28 should have more physical defense than special in order to help it check the vast majority of physical pivots in the tier. That being said, Special Defense cannot be tossed aside, as we want to make sure Future Sight isn't too threatening and just forces CAP28 out.

 

[quziel]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

Honestly, you can justify Physical, Special, Mixed of both varieties here given the list of mons we wanna check including Slowking (with Scald), Blissey, and Hippowdon (at least from typing). This list is diverse enough that I think you can justify basically anything w.r.t. bias, though I would really prefer mixed sets being able to exist.

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

At a minimum we should be able to 2HKO Slowking with our stab (physical or special), 2HKO Blissey somehow (Megahorn, CC, Superpower, etc). Beyond that I don't think there's any hard requirements w.r.t. base stats.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

Depends on the speed honestly.

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

Given the list of mons we wanna take on including stuff like Slowking and its Future Sight, and potential reaches including Equilibra, being specially bulky seems very helpful. At the same time, we probably shouldn't be dead to 1 Knock + SR vs Zeraora.

====================================

Compiling list of attacks by strength:

Physical

80/34 2xCB Grassy Glide from Rillaboom

80/41 1 Zeraora Knock Off + 1 SR

80/45 1 Excadrill Iron Head

80/53 Urshifu-R CB Surging Strikes

80/56 3xCB Rillaboom Grassy Glide

80/62 Alakazam LO Psyshock and CB Urshifu Sucker Punch

80/66 1 Smokomodo Flare Blitz

80/68 2xAstrolotl Fire Lash (switching out between so no -1 def)

80/75 Pajantom CB Spirit Shackle

80/76 2 CB Rillaboom Wood Hammer

80/79 CB Rillaboom Knock + Rocks (1 turn of Gterrain healing)

80/81 2 Zeraora Knock Off + 1 SR

80/84 Excadrill EQ + Iron Head

80/89 2x0 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash (2nd vs -1 def) | 2x252 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash (2nd vs -0 def)

80/107 2 Excadrill Iron Head

80/113 2xRillaboom Knock Off

80/115 2x252 Atk Astrolotl Fire Lash (2nd vs -1def)

80/119 1 Urshifu Wicked Blow
(this is also 2x CC)

Special

80/62 Slowking Scald + Future Sight

80/72 LO Venusaur Weather Ball

80/84 2x Rotom-H Overheat

80/87 +1 Volcarona Flamethrower

80/95 Krilowatt Volt Switch + Ice Beam

80/98 +2 Bulkyrona Flamethrower

80/102 2x Slowking Future Sight

80/106 Tomohawk Hurricane

80/115 HDB Kerfluffle Moonblast

80/118 +2 Rotom-H Overheat

80/120 Krilowatt 2xVolt Switch + Ice Beam

80/123 2xAegislash Shadow Ball

80/158 2xKrilowatt Ice Beam

 

[jas61292]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

Personally, I think any of these approaches is viable here, but if I was to pick the one that I think is best, I would say physical or physical leaning mixed. Specifically, by physical leaning mixed, I mean physical with enough SpA to utilize specific special attacks if need be, but not enough to really be able to run a special set by itself. My reasoning for this is simple: Blissey exists on our list of things to threaten. Special is simply not going to get it done against Blissey. Furthermore, while both Slowbro and Slowking are also targets of ours, Slowking is currently the higher ranked mon, and it is Specially defensive. A special attacker is going to have a lot harder time threatening it properly, both because of its higher special bulk, potential special Bug STABs are weaker than potential physical ones.

Now as for why not pure mixed or special based mixed, I think those are largely just not necessary. By focusing on a single offense, we will be able to do far more overall than we would if we were counting on utilizing both offenses. Mixed offenses likely would limit just how far we can go in any one of the offenses, and I think we want to go pretty far. One thing we really want is the ability to come in and be immediately threatening to our targets. If we go mixed, we may very well sacrifice some of that immediate threat in exchange for versatility that I personally do not think we need.

So overall, while I think any approach would work, and I'd have no issue with allowing all kinds of spreads to be submitted, I personally think a more physical approach would be the best path. The only real downside is dealing with burns, but that is something all physical mons have to deal with, so ultimately, I don't think we can let that scare us off.

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

I think the most important benchmarks are simply being able to 2HKO our key targets: Slowbro, Slowking and Blissey. While I would not be against scoring a OHKO on any of them, I think that, so long as we can get those 2HKOs, we have enough power for our purposes.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?
4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

Putting these together because my answers include both.

I do think we need some level of special bulk to take the hits from a Slowking as we switch into it. I don't think this needs to be extreme, as we resist their Scald, and are not necessarily going to even still be in to take a Future Sight, but I do think we want enough feel like we can repeatedly switch in on it, even if we lack any recovery. But in terms of other Pokemon, I'm not as worried. Definitely depends on our speed, as I really don't care much about tanking other things we outspeed, but so long as we have decent enough special bulk I think we will be fine, even if it is not amazing.

Physical bulk, on the other hand, is totally unneeded. Our situational targets include Hippo, whose STAB (and typical only offensive move) we resist, and Rillaboom, whose STABs we double resist. I don't think we have to freak out or anything about taking CB Rillaboom Knock Off or anything. As long as we are not so frail that something like Grassy Glide is an actual threat, I think we will be OK.

 

[Yay61]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?
I think in choosing neutralising gas we have to make some concessions in regard to our threat list. Physical sets are pretty much necessary to break through , but leave us unable to reliably switch in to . As this is was our only switch in matchup, and our ability does not give us any more switch in opportunities I think it should be preserved. Part of where most of these pivots excel is through being able to make an impact each time it comes in and force good matchups for its team. Failing to directly switch into any of these pivots, especially over the course of a game where the chance of being crippled increases isn’t a good look for this concept. Hence I think a special bias is the way to go, as even if we can’t deal much damage to , at least we can punish through our ability every time. I think having room for mixed sets or even physical sets should definitely happen, but the primary focus should be on ensuring we have a reliable, straightforward set that can consistently perform its role.


2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?
Doing over 50 to slowking with our bug stab so that it can’t just spam slack off in front of us is key. OHKOing it is a bit excessive, especially with the power of our ability. Getting a 2hko on blissey with a fighting move would also be important to allow for the possibility of mixed sets.

Neutralizing Gas is an interesting ability that in particular punishes regenerator pivots hard, and so while slowking is the only one that we clearly beat at this stage I think more emphasis should be placed on some of these interactions. While it may seem contradictory, I think encouraging the opponent to try and pivot around our moves would be pro concept with our ability. We should encourage Toxapex to switch in and force us out with the threat of knock / status, however, we should have a coverage option that can 2hko it. This means that if we choose the right move it is forced to switch back out again and denied recovery. While this approach is potentially dangerous, being able to threaten bulky cores with proper prediction would encourage switching around, which can be abused with neutralizing gas. In other words, while we don’t have to beat , , etc. outright, we should have an option that can 2hko them if we are able to predict correctly. This kind of counterplay also means that cap28 can apply pressure each time it is able to come in against our targets, as the more opportunities it is given the more likely it is to predict well and force a lose / lose situation.


3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?
Nothing we want to switch in on is particularly powerful, as we mostly fear the crippling effects of knock and status. Because of this we can get away with pretty minimal bulk, which also limits what we can switch into, only allowing us to punish passive pivots rather than just any pokemon without supereffective coverage. Where it gets more complicated is with recovery moves. Bug / Dragon has very limited offensive coverage, and given that I think we should be able to threaten 2hkos on a large variety of pokemon it would be better if we could use another slot for coverage or some other utility rather than recovery. In this case we need a bit better bulk so that we can aim to continue to switch in with limited recovery. I think there should be room for variation here to allow for spreads that can allow for recovery and those that don’t.


4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?
We have very little reason for physical bulk, as the most threatening thing from most physical attackers we might ever switch into is losing our item, not so much coverage. We should however have some solid special bulk to take repeated scalds and hits from the rotoms. This again depends on recovery but nonetheless special bulk is far more important than physical.

 

[flying moose]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?
Due to the Scald burn problem, I agree with the sentiment that 28 should be able to run to run strong special sets. At the same time, one of the reasons we chose Bug/Dragon was for the exciting array of physical attacks that the typing offers (e.g. Leech Life, First Impression, Dragon Tail). In order to get the full value of our typing, and to solve the Blissey problem, my conclusion is actually that we should be a primarily physical mixed attacker. This provides the choice to run fully physical sets that, with the right team support, would be the most optimal, as well as still-viable special attacking sets that, while not quite as powerful, are easier to play due to not having to worry about burns.

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?
Since we want to be able to make use of our interesting physical moves, I think we must be capable of 2HKOing Slowking with Leech Life. Incidentally, such a power level would be strong enough to have a chance of OHKOing it with Megahorn, and 2HKOing Blissey with Megahorn or a fighting move. In order to have special options, we should also be capable of 2HKOing Slowking with Bug Buzz.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?
This is a no-brainer that should be easy to achieve and probably doesn't need to be said, but we should have enough SpDef to set up a Substitute without it being broken by Scald. This will be huge in allowing Physical sets to thrive, for as long we switch in on a Future Sight or are lucky on the 70% Scald switch-in, we are in the clear, and can start to punish King or the switch-in in whatever way we want. There are probably higher benchmarks for substitute bulk that are worth discussing, as it will be a likely strategy, given its use in countering Future Sight, but this is the main one. It would be sweet if we can also withstand a Seismic Toss from Blissey, but that may be unrealistic.

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?
I'm in agreement that we should be specially defensive. Nothing new to add here.

 

[Bughouse]

Scald burns will make beating Slowtwins (and Blissey) relatively impossible if physical. The clear choice is a special bias. There are other ways to beat Blissey anyway, such as Toxic, especially since CAP 28's ability Neutralizing Gas means the Toxic continues to annoy Blissey even if it switches out.

I think Mixed is plausible, but frankly expecting a non-SE physical attack to 2HKO Blissey, even one as strong as Megahorn, is overly optimistic. To do so, you need like... Heracross levels of power. If we wanted to do this, we could have gone with a typing that included Fighting.

Let's work with the ability we picked. It's very powerful and will open up less direct avenues of beating the blobs than brute force.

 

[Deck Knight]

1. Should CAP 28 be a physical, special, or mixed attacker? To which extent?

After running some calculations, I believe CAP should be a mixed attacker with a physical bias. Our typing lends us with two fairly outrageous power bumps, from Bug Buzz vs Megahorn as the maximum output on Bug STAB and from Dragon Claw to Draco Meteor on Dragon STAB (Outrage is extremely anti-concept because Pivots thrive on it) Megahorn is the more consistent of the two power options, and Neutralizing Gas prevents Ferrothorn Iron Barbs damage, the activation of Intimidate until CAP 28 leaves the field, and various miscellaneous defensive abilities. Scald is aggravating, but it isn't the only or even the most spammable deterrent of physical attacks. Even when burned, Megahorn has sufficient power to force Slowking to Slack Off, and it still beats any Specially Defensive Slowking.

2. What are the most important offensive benchmarks we might need reach in order to beat our targets?

Slowking needs to be threatened on both sides of the spectrum, with a OHKO on Sp. Def Slowking with Megahorn, and a 2HKO on Phys. Def Slowking with Bug Buzz.

Blissey on the other hand doesn't need to be specifically brute forced. Because our ability neutralizes Natural Cure, any SubToxic set with 101 HP Subs can defeat Blissey, especially if Leech Life is in a third slot. She will not be able to remove Toxic as long as CAP 28 is in unless she starts running Aromatherapy, and that seems an unlikely addition to her traditional Teleport pivot set. In this sense, an HP stat of at least 100 Base would be considered an "offensive" benchmark.

3. Is there a level of Bulk that CAP 28 will need in order to succeed?

Stated as defensive benchmarks, CAP 28 should be able to avoid being 2HKO'd by Slowking/Slowbro's Future Sight, and be able to survive a round of Stealth Rock damage followed by Rillaboom's Choice Band Knock Off. This allows CAP 28 to be an effective anti-pivot and actually be able to utilize our STAB against these threats. Many of the Knock-Off users that use it as a weak hit are unable to break Substitute with the given bulk.

4. Should our defenses be balanced or should we specialize in one side in particular?

The only specific defense I think we should prioritize is enough HP for 101 HP Subs. Substitute was identified in out Concept Assessment conclusion as a method to counteract pivots, and our ability selection has nearly perfect synergy with Substitute-based strategies. Not only does Sub prevent Knocking Off presumed Heavy-Duty Boots, Neutralizing Gas prevents opponents from using Natural Cure pivots, Regenerator Pokemon, and other passive methods of shrugging it off. I don't think CAP 28 should be built with only stall tactics in mind, but it is a specific benchmark the applies to our concept goals. I think special defensive targets are more important given our primary target is the slowtwins, but the specific level of physical defense is arguable.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I really agree with most of what Deck Knight says. I don't think we need to be as offensively invested as some people are saying, though (OHKOing slowtwins, etc). We can be a huge momentum drain on pivots with simply STAB SE 2HKO no item required with bug buzz/megahorn, which requires some investment but not as much as some people are calling for. Add things like natural cure bypassing toxic, taunts, dragon tails, substitutes, etc, and we can make us a pivot nightmare without having to go all in on quick kills. In fact, NGas makes the pivots conventional playstyle act against them, as they now lack things like Regenerator or Natural Cure, so our mere existence breaks stalls with just adequate offenses. That said, several of our pro-concept moves like Leech Life and Dragon Tail benefit from physical prowess, so mixed or physical is probably best.

 

[Pipotchi]

For physical vs special bias, I think ppl are blowing scald burns way out of proportion. Not only is it the attack Slowking is clicking least (why go for a 30% burn instead of the guaranteed benefits of Future Sight? surely you guys who play the game see that it clicks FS or Tele 90% of the time), we can also be brought in safely on a Slowking through a pivot move as it switches in just like any other wallbreaker that needs to be careful about its hp, on a double switch, or after a KO. We can also just straight up switch into Scald 70% of the time. And there are heal bell/aromatherapy in the meta right now like Blissey and Astrolotl to remove burns from us, not to mention the movepool stage hasnt happened and we could get tools ourselves to either cure or exploit burns.

And on top of everything else, Slowking and Blissey are still actually threatened by burned physical attackers that are able to fully invest (slowking gets destroyed by our more powerful physical bug stabs even when burned and Blissey will be hurt considerably by high powered fighting coverage to the point that it wont be able to stall it out with status stuck on it). Luckily for these matchups we have utility just by switching in, so us being able to switch in and make a status like Toxic stick to Bliss and hitting it for 40 is still winning.

Physical is the most pro-concept route for sure and hits so much more reasonable benchmarks and almost all the benefits of special ride completely on scald from 1 pokemon being clicked rarely and getting a 30% roll on top. Ive used enough Dragapults to threaten Slowking to know this is irrelevant interaction. And Tomohawk isnt a major fear for a physical wallbreaker with neutral stab that cant be intimidated.


And as a last point, every special spread suggestion seems reliant on being mixed and still gets crippled by burn anyway.

 

[Amamama]

I made a Spreadsheets to reference specific physical Attacking Benchmarks, to maybe help finding a good range of Base Power our limits.
I highlighted the Range I think is most interesting for us.
For the calcs I used several generic STAB moves and added close combat for Blissey basically. I don’t want to imply any of these moves, but rather give us an overview of the physical Power necessary to hit certain targets.
For those who wonder why I included outrage for some neutral targets as well, it basically hits as hard as a 90BP SE coverage move.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/10CT7MPHkKc7DVKsNeDMQI-wc8PEVMO5an545wOmVoKM/edit

I will add a list of Special Attack Benchmarks

Edit: Worked in Special Benchmarks, which might be a tad rougher than the physical onessince it’s pretty time consuming doing this. But it should work as an overall overview.
After going through these Calcs, I have to say, that hitting meaningful SpA benchmarks looks pretty dire in comparison to the Physical side. At least in my opinion.
Most of the mons we want to hit will need huge stats to even think of OHKOing them, at least if we have to solely rely on our Stabs.
(Considering I did many of the calcs for 2 consecutive turns of Draco Meteor, a SpA Set might still work out well with the right coverage, since the damage equals that of a SE 75Bp move over two turns or a 97,5 BP move in one turn)
The 2HKO range for our main targets is also still reasonable.

With that in mind my preference has shifted to having a physically inclined mixed attacker or even a full physical Attacker.
If we choose to to do a specially inclined attacker, I’d argue to drop the Attack as low as possible without screwing our Blissey matchup.

 

[Krazyguy75]

For physical vs special bias, I think ppl are blowing scald burns way out of proportion. Not only is it the attack Slowking is clicking least (why go for a 30% burn instead of the guaranteed benefits of Future Sight? surely you guys who play the game see that it clicks FS or Tele 90% of the time), we can also be brought in safely on a Slowking through a pivot move as it switches in just like any other wallbreaker that needs to be careful about its hp, on a double switch, or after a KO. We can also just straight up switch into Scald 70% of the time. And there are heal bell/aromatherapy in the meta right now like Blissey and Astrolotl to remove burns from us, not to mention the movepool stage hasnt happened and we could get tools ourselves to either cure or exploit burns.

And on top of everything else, Slowking and Blissey are still actually threatened by burned physical attackers that are able to fully invest (slowking gets destroyed by our more powerful physical bug stabs even when burned and Blissey will be hurt considerably by high powered fighting coverage to the point that it wont be able to stall it out with status stuck on it). Luckily for these matchups we have utility just by switching in, so us being able to switch in and make a status like Toxic stick to Bliss and hitting it for 40 is still winning.

Physical is the most pro-concept route for sure and hits so much more reasonable benchmarks and almost all the benefits of special ride completely on scald from 1 pokemon being clicked rarely and getting a 30% roll on top. Ive used enough Dragapults to threaten Slowking to know this is irrelevant interaction. And Tomohawk isnt a major fear for a physical wallbreaker with neutral stab that cant be intimidated.


And as a last point, every special spread suggestion seems reliant on being mixed and still gets crippled by burn anyway.

Do you not see the massive issues with the statement "we can also be brought in safely on a Slowking through a pivot move as it switches in just like any other wallbreaker that needs to be careful about its hp"?!

That's probably the most anti-concept thing that could possibly happen to this entire CAP! Our entire purpose is to reduce the prevalence of pivots in the meta. If this CAP becomes pivot dependent, then you've made the meta more constrictive and pivot focused than ever before, as now on top of pivots being generally one of the best sources of momentum, they become one of the best counters to themselves! If pivot v pivot is more likely to win than anything else v pivot, then the entire meta will be dependent on them!

I do agree that the burn thing is overblown, but boy is this one of the most blatantly anti-concept proposals I've seen here and I felt the need to specifically address it.

 

[Pipotchi]

Do you not see the massive issues with the statement "we can also be brought in safely on a Slowking through a pivot move as it switches in just like any other wallbreaker that needs to be careful about its hp"?!

That's probably the most anti-concept thing that could possibly happen to this entire CAP! Our entire purpose is to reduce the prevalence of pivots in the meta. If this CAP becomes pivot dependent, then you've made the made more constrictive and pivot focused than ever before, as now on top of pivots being generally one of the best sources of momentum, they become one of the best counters to themselves! If pivot v pivot is more likely to win than anything else v pivot, then the entire meta will be dependent on them!

I do agree that the burn thing is overblown, but boy is this one of the most blatantly anti-concept proposals I've seen here and I felt the need to specifically address it.

Just gunna quote the concept again:

• Name - Roadblock
  
  
• Description - A Pokemon that excels at slowing down, punishing or otherwise disrupting the opposing team's pivoting strategies.

It specifically listed that it would target the opponents teams pivots and not attempt to reduce the prevalence of pivots overall in the metagame, no I dont see the issue of bringing it in with a pivot.


Literally every playstyle uses pivots and there are many antipivot mons out there already. This is just a new exploration of the "antipivot" mon. Its unreasonable to expect this mon to shift the entire metagame or go out of your way to prevent it enjoying being brought in safely through pivoting. Every pokemon in the game enjoys being brought in safely to do its job with the exception of a suicide lead.
Also I listed 8 methods for pure physical to avoid/handle burns and pivoting it in safely was 1 of those, I didnt say it needs to be pivot dependant either

 

[Krazyguy75]

Just gunna quote the concept again:


It specifically listed that it would target the opponents teams pivots and not attempt to reduce the prevalence of pivots overall in the metagame, no I dont see the issue of bringing it in with a pivot.


Literally every playstyle uses pivots and there are many antipivot mons out there already. This is just a new exploration of the "antipivot" mon. Its unreasonable to expect this mon to shift the entire metagame or go out of your way to prevent it enjoying being brought in safely through pivoting. Every pokemon in the game enjoys being brought in safely to do its job with the exception of a suicide lead.
Also I listed 8 methods for pure physical to avoid/handle burns and pivoting it in safely was 1 of those, I didnt say it needs to be pivot dependant either

Your justification:

"Justification - This is a Target concept, we are looking to shut down Teleport, U-turn, Volt Switch strategies in the meta, as well as targeting the abilities and items that enable them. Right now, Teleport has come to dominate the metagame, and the advent of Heavy Duty Boots and new Regen pivots has taken U-turn/TP on certain mons to a new high. Kril is also just as frustrating as before, spamming Volt Switch among others. Furthermore, pivoting goes beyond just moves- Toxapex, Tomohawk and Equilibra are well-known pivots that act as a mid-ground between 2 pokemon, usually scouting and sponging a hit before switching to something more appropriate."

If we are dependent on teleport/u-turn/volt switch, we are not shutting the strategies using them, but rather giving them new tools. Not to mention just how ridiculously bad of an idea it is to make mirror matches the best strategy in literally any situation. Let's put it this way: if we don't need pivots, we are to pivots as fairy was to dragons. If we need pivots, we are as dragon is to dragon. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the days where there was no fairy type and the best anti-dragon tech was other dragons.

I am not proposing we shift the entire metagame. But our focus should be on avoiding worsening the issue creating a mirror match metagame at all costs. Otherwise we've only made the meta more constrictive and less interesting, and CAP28 should never have been made in the first place. It's one thing to not shift the meta away from pivots; that's fine. It's another to shift it further towards them, and that'd be a conceptual failure in my opinion.

 

[Deck Knight]

Krazyguy75 I don't think Pipotchi was saying to turn CAP itself into a pivot with pivoting tools. At the base level, anything with a decent resistance set like ours can be an effective hard switch-in, and nothing we do within the project is going to change the available methods for allowing save switchins.

I do think we need to hit a bit of a sweet spot on bulk though. Too bulky and 28 becomes too stally and really starts messing with things like Krilowatt by making it eat hazards and LO damage repeatedly.Too frail and it becomes too easy for a pivot to U-turn/Volt/Teleport away to a partner that scores an uncontested KO. Nullifying Regenerator while having a satisfactory or better matchup potential with all of them were great first steps with this typing/ability.

 

[MrDollSteak]

I'd like to thank everyone for the high quality of discussion so far. I can see that there are still quite a few different directions that this project can go in, with Physical, Special and Mixed sets all receiving support. Overall, bulk has been determined to be not particularly important, especially on the physical side of things. With this in mind I have decided upon a few preliminary Stat bias limits for us to consider and discuss.

PS: 210
PT: 120
SS: 210
ST: 180
BSR: 350

I have chosen the offensive limits to allow for a range of spreads with different leanings. The defensive limits are designed to accomodate some of the key physical and special benchmarks that we have identified, without allowing us to become a dedicated wall. I have at this stage chosen a relatively low BSR of 350 because we have for the most determined that our defenses and bulk are relatively insignificant, and to discourage hitting every single limit. I would love to get your comments and thoughts about these individual limits and BSR, particularly in relation to other Pokemon that have similar roles in the metagame as well as bearing in mind the offensive and defensive benchmarks that we will need to hit.

Now as far as an additional proposal. Because of the way that BSR calculates mixed spreads, I would also like to propose that in terms of calculating BSR, a minimum PS and SS limit be applied so as to not allow for dump stat spreads to be able to hit significantly more benchmarks than mixed spreads. The way that this will work is, if you have a PS or SS lower than the proposed number, you will have to manually type in that number into the PS or SS category. This will allow for lower dump stat numbers to still be chosen for flavor without having significant competitive implications over slightly higher numbers. I would thus like to open up discussion about what this limit should be within the reasonable terms of other Pokemon with dump stats and slight mixed potential. At this stage I am thinking that 120 will be a reasonable starting point to allow for mono attacking spreads to remain more stat efficient than mixed sets without directly outclassing them in terms of riding the limits.

This thread will close in 48 hours. At which point I will be setting our final Stat limits. Thank you, I look forward to the final discussions.