CAP 28 - Part 8 - Moveset Discussion

[dex]

I'm in favor of Knock Off remaining off the blacklist. Getting rid of items, particularly HDB, is a very effective way of slowing down pivoting teams. Limiting , , and 's ability to take no damage on switch in while getting away essentially for free can be done by removing HDB from the equation. Knock Off is a particularly useful tool in limiting pivots, as nothing really likes getting its item knocked.

 

[arielpinkhauntedgraffiti]

The Poison-type coverage debate is interesting, and I'd have to say that I agree with the consensus that 28 has enough coverage to hit fairies neutrally. However, I'm interested in 28 including Poison-type moves in its arsenal that would benefit a stallbreaker role. Three Poison-type moves come to mind: Acid Spray, Clear Smog, and Corrosive Gas. What do all of these moves have in common? They're low damage-output (and usually aren't sufficient coverage on their own,) and have secondary effects that discourage Fairy-type Pokemon (that are immune to 28's Dragon Tail phasing) from sitting in against 28 and boosting in its face. What's more, these moves fit in thematically with 28's chemical attributes.

Knock Off has already been considered for the blacklist. If the power is too much of a concern, Corrosive Gas can serve as a poor-man's Knock Off and still have the same item-stripping effect. Also, the Poison-type move Corrosive Gas hits Steel-types, so no worries about not securing an item removal. While losing Knock Off makes 28 more passive in its support, its ability to come in against regenerator mons and its 135/115 offenses means that it certainly won't be sitting on the sidelines.

 

[Zephyri]

Hm, wanna discuss TSpikes a bit here.

Hazards have historically been a good way of dealing with pivots. They mean that you can't just switch in and switch out without taking a net negative in terms of HP (atleast in a pre-hdb era). That being said, I think Hazards(specifically Tspikes) alongside item removal would make for an/some interesting pro-concept set/sets that, although doesn't really fit the "wallbreaker" archetype we're going for, can allow a bit of unpredictability and variety to the mon. I specifically like the suggestion of Corrosive Gas made by arielpinkhauntedgraffiti (amazing name btw), as it doesn't have the scary possible implications of Knock Off but has the nice item removal feature.

I also want to put this replay against Rev here to show the synergy between tspikes and item removal, specifically with HDB mons like astro in this case: https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/captest-gen8cap-21

My proposed set (aka. my old tspikes set with one move changed LOL):

Disruption Stallbreaker
Name: Roserade 2.0
Move 1: Toxic Spikes
Move 2: Corrosive Gas
Move 3: Thunder
Move 4: Megahorn/Close Combat
Ability: Compound Eyes
Item: Heavy-Duty Boots
EVs: 212 Atk/ 188 SpA/ 108 Spe
Nature: Mild

In regards to the other contested movepool options:
-Think poison coverage/steel coverage is mostly fine unless we're going to give ourselves like anything above 80 BP. Leaning towards steel atm because I don't like how poison is SE against Kerf, i'd love a single hard counter. EDIT: I'm an idiot, didn't realize that steel is also SE to kerf
-Knock Off seems a bit too powerful and unnecessary when Corrosive Gas exists, am willing to be convinced otherwise though
-Feel like scale shot does similar things to DD/QD, albeit to a lesser extent. Still don't like it, leaning on blacklist
-Spikes is something i don't like because I feel like it's a bit too powerful for us atm. Tspikes seems like an easier to handle, more disruptive, and generally healthier option. But I am willing to be convinced otherwise
-Outrage is mostly outclassed by DHammer and seems fine i think. Obviously we'll get band nuke sets with it, but at the same time basically every dragon type gets it.
-I'm not sure about the arguments for or against Recover, so idk if i can make an educated opinion. On first sight adding reliable recovery to our toolkit seems unnecessary but idk

 

[Mega-Pokebattlerz]

/ds dragon type, !outrage, !nfe, !lc
Eternatus

Dragon Hammer outclasses Outrage, and Outrage is universal on essentially every single dragon, it should be on this mon.

Recover seems very fine, and honestly, helps out concept a bit by giving us something to do on turns where we guaranteed force out a mon. I also think its like, very mediocre, but at the same time, flexibility is appreciated, I think this is a good addition.

Eternatus doesn't get Outrage? That's stupid.

But yeah, I'm in favour of 28 having Outrage and Knock Off. Outrage is a worse Dragon Hammer but every dragon (besides Eternatus) gets it so I don't so why we shouldn't too, and Knock Off is very pro-concept in my book since it cripples pivots by removing their Boots (although I like the idea of Corrosive Gas as well).

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

It's turning out that CAP28 is going to KO an opposing Pokemon every time they stay in with a pivot against CAP28.
Outrage: As a staple of dragon types this should be allowed, and it won't replace Dragon Hammer as the primary physical STAB.
Recover: I think recover is necessary for CAP28 since it's going to be worn down by switching into scald every time, if they get burned, and since they don't have Leftovers instead needing HDB. That being said, it's coverage moves and other utility moves are also necessary for CAP28. This mon suffers a lot from 4MSS.
Knock Off: I don't really have much to say about Knock Off other than the 4MSS, since most sets would use 1 STAB move, 2 coverage, and 1 extra. Also not sure about having a ~100 BP coverage dark move. Although I kinda also like Corrosive Gas as an option but idk.
Scale Shot: I am more against Scale Shot, I'm not sure about any speed boosting moves on CAP28, since it is already such a powerful mixed attacker, and having it on an ~80 BP move (that also multihits, so sash may be ignored at all) doesn't seem right. Sure it drops defense, but I don't think CAP28 would be living that much hits anyways.
Spikes/Toxic Spikes: Again 4MSS. I'm not sure if we want hazards, that might make it a suicide lead but idk.

 

[Darek]

Just gonna pitch in my thoughts here:
Outrage: Like many others have said, Dragon Hammer is generally superior, and nearly every dragon gets Outrage, so it should be allowed.

Recover: Recover is a great option here because if CAP28 isn't blowing up walls with a banded or boosting set, it'll need longevity in order to discourage pivoting. I say allow Recover.

Scale Shot: Scale Shot should be blacklisted on the same basis that we agreed that Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance should be disallowed. With Swords Dance, Scale Shot gives CAP28 the potential to become a scary sweeper, which we have agreed could be potentially overbearing and not the route we want to go.

Toxic Spikes: They're not terrible, but I really don't see the point of giving us TSpikes. CAP28 frankly doesn't have the stats or typing to come in often to set up TSpikes and like others have said, TSpikes are pretty easy to remove right now. There are some cases where TSpikes can be run I'm sure, but because it's really not that great overall it just seems like another option that's being tacked on for the sake of viability.

Knock Off: On paper, removing HDB from pivots seems like a great way to fulfill this concept, but the problem is that most HDB users like , , , , , and others have no business switching in on us anyway. Realistically, mons like , , and will be switching in on us, and while knocking them is nice, it doesn't really discourage pivoting that well. Really, the only mon that runs HDB and would switch in on us I'd imagine is , and calling Knock Off pro-concept because it knocks Bao on the switch isn't a great justification. While Knock Off is a great move, I don't find it to be as pro-concept as it sounds and it seems more like an option being tacked on for viability. Knock Off should be Blacklisted.

Corrosive Gas: Same logic as Knock Off, I really don't see this move removing HDB like we want it to. Also, in my honest opinion, Corrosive Gas is pretty awful. Corrosive Gas's lack of damage makes it extremely passive, and that's the last thing we want CAP28 to be. Although removing an item is great, if we consider CAP28's 135/115 offenses and great coverage, Corrosive Gas honestly just seems like a waste of a turn in comparison to our other options. It's nowhere near as good as Knock Off so I don't think we have to blacklist it, but it's honestly just not a great option.

 

[G-Luke]

Just gonna pitch in my thoughts here:
Outrage: Like many others have said, Dragon Hammer is generally superior, and nearly every dragon gets Outrage, so it should be allowed.

Recover: Recover is a great option here because if CAP28 isn't blowing up walls with a banded or boosting set, it'll need longevity in order to discourage pivoting. I say allow Recover.

Scale Shot: Scale Shot should be blacklisted on the same basis that we agreed that Dragon Dance and Quiver Dance should be disallowed. With Swords Dance, Scale Shot gives CAP28 the potential to become a scary sweeper, which we have agreed could be potentially overbearing and not the route we want to go.

Toxic Spikes: They're not terrible, but I really don't see the point of giving us TSpikes. CAP28 frankly doesn't have the stats or typing to come in often to set up TSpikes and like others have said, TSpikes are pretty easy to remove right now. There are some cases where TSpikes can be run I'm sure, but because it's really not that great overall it just seems like another option that's being tacked on for the sake of viability.

Knock Off: On paper, removing HDB from pivots seems like a great way to fulfill this concept, but the problem is that most HDB users like , , , , , and others have no business switching in on us anyway. Realistically, mons like , , and will be switching in on us, and while knocking them is nice, it doesn't really discourage pivoting that well. Really, the only mon that runs HDB and would switch in on us I'd imagine is , and calling Knock Off pro-concept because it knocks Bao on the switch isn't a great justification. While Knock Off is a great move, I don't find it to be as pro-concept as it sounds and it seems more like an option being tacked on for viability. Knock Off should be Blacklisted.

Corrosive Gas: Same logic as Knock Off, I really don't see this move removing HDB like we want it to. Also, in my honest opinion, Corrosive Gas is pretty awful. Corrosive Gas's lack of damage makes it extremely passive, and that's the last thing we want CAP28 to be. Although removing an item is great, if we consider CAP28's 135/115 offenses and great coverage, Corrosive Gas honestly just seems like a waste of a turn in comparison to our other options. It's nowhere near as good as Knock Off so I don't think we have to blacklist it, but it's honestly just not a great option.

I really don't understand how Knock Off isn't important. Removing a Leftovers from a Corvknight and HDB from Kerfluffle and Mandibuzz is extremely pro concept, as they make wearing them down via hazards much easier. While Tomohawk's most popular item is Rocky Helmet, several Tomohawk sets have both Lefties and HDB. Even so, removing RH means CAP 28 isn't punished by Tomohawk switching in anymore. Really, Knock Off's biggest drawback is 4MSS - CAP 28 is a strapped Pokémon as is, so Knock would face stiff competition. Never the less, I'd think stallbreaker / disruption based sets would appreciate Knock Off's utility the most. The coverage dilemma isn't that big of a deal, considering that Dark coverage doesn't hit anything that we don't want to hit.

Corrosive Gas is a different matter though. I do not think its worth the slot. Its essentially Knock Off that can be blocked by Taunt. It seems like an excellent flavor option though so please do not blacklist it.

The rest of the points I agree with for the most part, though I'd like to see replays with CAP 28 utilizing recovery. I think our aggressive approach may even like Pain Split more, but that is just me.

 

[Reviloja753]

I am of the firm opinion that all hazard-setting moves should be blacklisted. While technically relevant to the concept in that it punishes constant pivoting, many pivots run Heavy-Duty Boots as of now. Those that don't, like Tomohawk and Toxapex, are the ones we have coverage against. It just feels like they're tacked on to give us extra viability without any real consideration for its use on the CAP.

Knock Off is a move I did somewhat extensive testing with G-Luke, but the thing is even on teams with hazards, was not a move either of us really clicked. There was only one time that Knock Off fufilled its purpose of removing boots and that was against Mollux, but even then I had kind of let it get knocked off to see how it would play out, so that wasn't exactly fair. Even then, you reasonably should just be clicking Earthquake against Mollux anyway (which G-Luke did next turn and I forgot to switch out so lol). It just feels like another move suggested for viability's sake as opposed to one that supports the concept. Blacklist Knock Off.

Outrage is a move practically universal to Dragons and Dragon Hammer will always be used over it anyway, so I think it's safe to require Outrage.

Recover/Pain Split is something I frankly am undecided on because it just kind of came out of left field. I would say blacklist them if I had to choose since I see us as too fragile to use Recover and I sense Pain Split wouldn't be much better when we could be attacking, but these need to be tested if we want to truly know if we want these or not.

Scale Shot is one that also needs to be tested, because it's an attack that raises our speed and is also STAB. I do think that since it is a speed boosting move we should also take this time to evaluate the use of Agility. I think we should test Scale Shot and Agility before making a decision.

P.S: Can we require Earth Power? It's weaker than EQ on a mixed set and would just be there to give Nasty Plot access to Ground coverage, and so I don't see a problem requiring it.

 

[jas61292]

While I would like to join the chorus supporting Outrage, I would also like to say that I think people are way underestimating it. It is a full 1/3 more damage than Dragon Hammer, and, especially on a set like CB, that could easily let it pick up KOs that Dragon Hammer simply will not. Pokemon like Pajantom run outage far more often than Dragon Claw, and I don't think a minor 10 power difference is going to mean it's somehow now irrelevant, when it still has a major power advantage. Ultimately, what I'm saying is that I support it, but I do so because I think it fits our breaker role, not because it is irrelevant. It most certainly is not.

I also want to say that I'm against us getting Knock Off. We already have good moves to threaten what we want to counter, and Knock Off isn't even the best for targeting our likely switch ins. I don't think it would see much use in the current meta, but it's a powerful move and should not be given lightly. Knock really feels to me like a case of tacking something on because "it is good and why not?" which is somthing I really think we need to move away from.

 

[BitBitio]

I support Outrage.
I also want to bring up the possibility of having Strength Sap. I think recovery on CAP 28 is a good idea. Strength Sap is an interesting recovery option that most certainly adds to its survivability and also helps somewhat in patching 28’s poor physical bulk. What do you guys think?

 

[Reviloja753]

I also want to bring up the possibility of having Strength Sap. I think recovery on CAP 28 is a good idea. Strength Sap is an interesting recovery option that most certainly adds to its survivability and also helps somewhat in patching 28’s poor physical bulk. What do you guys think?

For the record, the reason our Defense is so low is because it was determined in the stats stage that our defense was our least important stat. I do not think that lowering Attack is something we really need to do. In terms of recovery in general, I honestly don’t think we have room to run it, considering our weak bulk and need for offense. While not the same thing by a mile, Polteageist gets access to the move yet doesn’t run it. Why? Because it is primarily focused on offenses and not so much worrying about its defenses. Moreover, it has attacks that it much rather would be using than using the passive Strength Sap. Blacklist Strength Sap.

 

[BitBitio]

For the record, the reason our Defense is so low is because it was determined in the stats stage that our defense was our least important stat. I do not think that lowering Attack is something we really need to do. In terms of recovery in general, I honestly don’t think we have room to run it, considering our weak bulk and need for offense. While not the same thing by a mile, Polteageist gets access to the move yet doesn’t run it. Why? Because it is primarily focused on offenses and not so much worrying about its defenses. Moreover, it has attacks that it much rather would be using than using the passive Strength Sap. Blacklist Strength Sap.

True, but the comparison isn't very fair. Polteageist is a one-and-done sweeper with Shell Smash. CAP 28 is trying to stick around for an entire game and put a continual stop to pivoting strategies. It can't do that very well throughout a game especially given its defenses and typing granting it somewhat poor longevity. I think that Strength Sap is very pro-concept as a result and will make its way onto many of 28's builds. I think you underestimate the utility and aid this move and recovery in general provides for a mon like CAP 28. It won't be a centralizing option, but it will aid CAP 28 in the long run. I say at least to playtest it before outright blacklisting it and I continue to support it.

 

[Krazyguy75]

I really don’t get that argument for blacklisting strength sap. It just appears to be “we won’t use it”. In which case, who gives a crap? It can be on there or not, same difference. It’s not breaking anything or anti-concept. It shouldn’t be required, but there’s no good reason to full on blacklist it.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

Thanks for the discussion on these points, it seems thread has made its choice on these moves.

Outrage: As pointed out its near-universal in nature with the exception being Eternatus (we don't really have an explanation for exception), and most believe that it is generally inferior to Dragon Hammer. Obviously I do not think we should completely discount it as a usable option but the verdict is clear. Approved.

Recover: Similarly well liked as an option while a distinct one, it seems to be an option to give CAP28 an element of survivability without completely patching its bad bulk, and feels like a meaningful addition to CAP's roster. There are a few detractors, but the majority has shown to be mostly positive. Approved.

Toxic Spikes: Hazards in general has had a lot of indifference over the course of thread, and this discussion on Toxic Spikes continues said trend. Toxic Spikes has shown not to be the most ideal hazard, and people still question the necessity of having hazards in general, so not approving it at the moment.

Gunk Shot: Not really discussed but I forgot to blacklist it last time. Even in the Poison- and Steel-type discussion this is considered overkill. Blacklisted.

Spikes: Barely saw any discussion, let alone in its defense. Its clear we don't want it. Blacklisted.

Scale Shot: People seem solidly against it as it emulates Speed + Offense Boosting. There was a call to test it, but I do not think we need it considering we have many other Dragon-type STAB moves we can use in its place. Blacklisted.

Knock Off: This one is tricky. Knock Off overall has gotten very mixed reception and falls nowhere near any sort of consensus. I think those who propose that we add Corrosive Gas over it do not understand that its really not a super practical move and absolutely will not be able to emulate Knock Off. I think the strongest argument for Knock Off comes from G-Luke, but even he admits its really fighting for a slot. I think with this in mind, the question comes up of do we actually need it at all considering all of the tools we already have. My answer is no here, and giving such a strong tool as Knock Off I think is merely adding for the sake of adding. Blacklisted.

Strength Sap: Strength Sap is very hard to balance, especially this late into movesets, and we are already getting Recover. Adding it would be indulgent. Blacklisted.

So about now would usually be the time where we would wrap up and head into movepools. However the implementation of a multi-layered release changes things drastically, meaning that we won't be hitting movepools for a bit after the 1.0 release. To counteract this, we will instead be creating a preliminary movepool, both to act as a placeholder until we get to movepool submission proper, and as to give CAP28 some of the fun limbo options for testing. This is not our final movepool, just one used for the 1.0 release.

Here is the link for the preliminary movepool we at TLT have compiled together and discussed. '!!' at the end of the move indicates it is required, and '??' at the end of the move indicates it is a controversial choice that requires discussion. These controversial moves are the ones that need to be discussed here today and decided if we would like these added to the movepool. I will also be throwing blacklist warnings on pseudo-trapping moves (Infestation, Sand Tomb, Whirlpool), as these moves tend to add a lot of unneccesary cheese to CAP play. Objectors you have 24 hours for these pseudo-trapping moves.

 

[The Crusade]

So about now would usually be the time where we would wrap up and head into movepools. However the implementation of a multi-layered release changes things drastically, meaning that we won't be hitting movepools for a bit after the 1.0 release. To counteract this, we will instead be creating a preliminary movepool, both to act as a placeholder until we get to movepool submission proper, and as to give CAP28 some of the fun limbo options for testing. This is not our final movepool, just one used for the 1.0 release.

...Wait, what? I've been following this project fairly consistently since the start, and this is the first I've heard of a multi-layered release. Would you clarify what that means for the process? Are we postponing full movepools until after the two-week playtest or something?

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

...Wait, what? I've been following this project fairly consistently since the start, and this is the first I've heard of a multi-layered release. Would you clarify what that means for the process? Are we postponing full movepools until after the two-week playtest or something?

Precisely. Based on the discussion in the Multi-Layered Release thread in PRC, most specifically this post, we will waiting to do full movepools until after the Playtest Tournament and the Post-Play Lookback thread.

 

[Zephyri]

Ight, wanna try to give my opinions on most, if not all, of the ?? moves

Screens: Aren't particularly pro-concept, neither are they flavorful, and they can possibly take us in a very unexpected direction. Blacklist
Steel Coverage/Poison Coverage: After mulling over this a bit i think blacklisting these options is the way we want to go here. My specific gripe is the fact that they allow us to do SE damage against our one true hard counter rn: Kerf. I kinda think that they're unnecessary other than that and don't really help us with other important targets (the only one i can see rn is Bao and that's not even a pivot). I am open to having my mindset changed though, but for now, I'd suggest blacklisting Steel Wing, Iron Tail, Flash Cannon, Iron Head, Poison Jab, Sludge Wave, and Sludge Bomb
Pseudo-trapping moves: In most situations i'd say blacklist, but rn i think the situation differs. The purpose of our mon is to stop pivoting, or to stop other mons from switching around, and although this is a cheesy way to do that, it's still a way. I'd say this is the single time where pseudo trapping moves should be let in
Acrobatics(dual wingbeat falls here too): Don't like it's kerf interaction, and although it's fairly unviable, I could see the application of certain focus sash sets that used acrobatics. I'd say Blacklist
Stomping Tantrum: Mostly just a weaker EQ, seems fine mostly
Hydro Pump/Surf/Liquidation: Being able to hit Hippo SE and Rhyperior 4xSE is not something i think we want, the coverage isn't necessary, and the moves aren't particularly flavorful. I'd say Blacklist
Encore: I don't really see a situation where you'd want to click this, but i don't think it's necessary either way. Leaning on Blacklist
Trick: CB seems to be the most prevalent set rn, and trick synergizes a bit too well with that. It doesn't help that trick is essentially unblockable rn. Blacklist
Toxic Spikes(and SR too ig): Made a post about it, but to summarize i think it's a really good niche option that synergizes well with the item removal option we now have. Approve
Aura Sphere: Don't see a situation where i'd use AuraSphere over Fblast. It seems fine, i'd say let it in
Earth Power: Mostly indifferent to it, but having special ground coverage seems nice
Wild Charge: Same as EP
Fairy Coverage: Don't like it because of it's kerf interaction
Super Fang: Ok ig? Don't see too many applications for it but i guess it's flavorful.

Aaand that's it i think.

 

[Amamama]

True, but the comparison isn't very fair. Polteageist is a one-and-done sweeper with Shell Smash. CAP 28 is trying to stick around for an entire game and put a continual stop to pivoting strategies. It can't do that very well throughout a game especially given its defenses and typing granting it somewhat poor longevity. I think that Strength Sap is very pro-concept as a result and will make its way onto many of 28's builds. I think you underestimate the utility and aid this move and recovery in general provides for a mon like CAP 28. It won't be a centralizing option, but it will aid CAP 28 in the long run. I say at least to playtest it before outright blacklisting it and I continue to support it.

You have to realize that 90%of the mons were switching into and which are going to switch into us have middling to poor physical offense. The utility of strength sap greatly relies on a) us getting enough health back by using it and b) our opponent being crippled by the Atk drop. Of the mons that are going to switch into us often only (and , which doesn’t really want to come in anyway) have a passable Attacking stat, that they also use.
Pokémon like or don’t care about the Attack drop and mostly don’t run Attack Investment which means the recovery of strength sap will not be immense.
The same goes for those mons we are going to be switching into.
, the slows and have laughable attacking stats, while mons like Zeraora and Rillaboom will probably voltturn or hard switch out anyway.

I‘m in favor of blacklisting Strength Sap, because it doesn’t really offer more utility than other recovery moves and could serve as a Noob trap pretty easily.

I believe that Pain Split will be a superior option almost always, because it puts pressure on the defensive mons that we are trying to handle, while helping us recover.
Almost all Pokémon we are trying to pressure have high HP and usually run full HP investment, with the exception of and the forms.

I also could see one of Moonlight, morning sun, synthesis or shore up, as 28 could have great synergy with some weather teams and at the same time doesn’t care about the low PP amount, since it isn’t likely to use recovery too often.

 

[Jewvia]

Screens: Blacklist. Not concept relevant at all.

Hazards: I held back on discussing this while others talked it out. Now that I've heard both arguments... I don't think we need to be setting hazards. It discourages pivots, but in a passive manner. And most pivots run boots anyways. I think we should also Blacklist Hazards.

Steel/Poison TMs and TRs: Blacklist. The only one that feels flavourful are Iron Head and arguably Iron Tail. Both of these are too strong for Steel coverage. I would argue to extend this to Cross Poison too.

Trapping Moves: Its cheesy, but it does stop pivoting in a forced way. Given the breadth of our tools, I don't think they will see too much use. I think Infestation should stay on the 1.0 movepool and then see if it ever pops up in testing. If it ends up being useful, we can keep it. We can Blacklist Whirlpool though. For the cost of 5 BP, we get 100% accuracy on NGas sets. Plus Bug isn't immune to anything, while Sand Tomb will miss flying types and CEyes sets running Whirlpool lose to Water Absorbtion abilities. Its just more reliable, and its lower BP is made up for by our STAB. Its also got 0 flavour behind it, which is the only reason why I didn't also suggest blacklisting Sand Tomb.

Water: Impartial. It has no flavourful addition, but it does let us hit some things we are checking. Namely, Hippowdon. I don't think we will ever touch it compared to other typings, so we can probably just Blacklist it.

Encore/Trick: These are a pair of disruptive abilities that feel kinda niche. They should be fine on the tentative movelist.

Flying moves: Acrobatics feels better. Makes switching into Knock Off more favourable. If we need one of the two in the kit, it should be Acrobatics not Dual Wingbeat.

Fairy: Meh. Flying through Acrobatics gives us an interesting interaction with Knock Off. Play Rough gives us a way to hit Fighting types that we don't need. Unless we are replacing Dragon STAB with this, its a worthless addition that just hits Fighting. Blacklist.

Earth Power/Wild Charge/Aura Sphere: I see no reason to blacklist these if we wanted to be a mixed attacker, unless we are trying to force ourselves to have physical ground and special electric only. Aura Sphere should be approved either way. Approve all 3 for now.

I mentioned it earlier, but one more attack I think would be interesting to see or discuss is Scorching Sands. Its more or less the ground equivalent of Scald, and as we have very thoroughly discussed back in the ability stages, burns on switch in can be deadly, and it does scare people from wanting to switch in certain threats against us.

 

[Zetalz]

While I'm slightly confused by the layout of the prelim movepool I'd like to know how much does flavor matter at this point? When we go into movepools that's usually where we transition to the flavor stages of the cap so I'd just like to know how much of that we're doing at this time. Since I'm unclear on how much it matters at this point do take my post with a grain of salt as a lot of my opinions are rooted in flavor for this.

Anyway, thoughts on (almost) everything!

Moves

TMs

Light Screen/Reflect: While I think 28 is a really bad screens user I think these should be blacklisted. These moves radically change 28's intended role and are quite anti-concept.
Steel Wing: As far as "safe" coverage vs fairies go this is definitely one of the safest since it's low power and inaccuracy make it undesirable. However something to note as that not a SINGLE Bug-type outside of the Scyther line learns Steel Wing, so while I think this is safe for comp reasons it should be blacklisted based on flavor.
Whirlpool/Sand Tomb/Infestation: I'm wary about giving trapping moves as Luc is as we've recently seen how easily they can cause unintended problems. In this case I don't see 28 abusing trapping to the same level pre-nerf Astro did so I think tentatively allowing at least Infestation and blacklisting the other two. I'd also urge extra caution that we don't give it too many moves that synergize with it.
Acrobatics: Meh, Flying does practically nothing for us coverage-wise and if 28 is without an item a boosted acro isn't what it's going to be wanting or needing during a match. Not to mention this thing looks incredibly un-agile, blacklist is fine.
Stomping Tantrum: We already have EQ, it's perfectly fine, moving on.

TRs

Hydro Pump/SurfLiquidation: These are really odd choices if I'm being honest. Water is a pretty bad non-stab coverage and the things it hits aren't on our priorities list. The flavor is also wildly off imo, just because we're Dragon doesn't mean a bunch of elemental moves fit, very few dragons have these moves that don't have heavy water flavor in their designs (infact ZERO non-water dragons learn Liquidation, lol). Blacklist these.
Sludge Bomb/Wave: We didn't come to a real conclusion on Poison/Steel coverage as whole but I think Sludge Bomb/Wave should be blacklisted. If we really want a targeted coverage option that let's us not get blanked by Fairies I'd rather use the less useful Steel coverage options than moves as strong as these.
Encore: I've stated my opinions on this previously so I'll just reiterate that Encore is a bit of an excessive utility option combined with what we have already, and becomes more dangerous as we consider adding stuff like trapping. I think it's safest to blacklist it.
Iron Tail: As much as I like this I think it might be safer to blacklist Iron Tail. While it does require CEyes to be effective it does give 28 a very good chance to OHKO Kerfluffle (our most prolific check) without the need of a choice band.
Trick: We've seen throughout this generation how much nastier Trick has become and experienced it first hand with our previous creation Astrolot, I think that regardless of whether or not we have trapping moves or something like Encore this should be blacklisted. It's a very dangerous option in this generation and I'd rather nip it in the bud.
Muddy Water: Isn't a questionable move (for obvious reasons, it's bad lol) but I'd like this to be removed alongside the previously mentioned Water moves as it's highly unflavorful.
TSpikes/Stealth Rock: Honestly I think the lack of greater support or even discussion on these moves at all is fairly telling. Hazards are as pro-concept here as they are on literally any other concept and I've made my thoughts on clear how these are tack-ons for viability and nothing more, blacklist.
Aura Sphere: Bit of a weird case with this one. It's definitely fine for competitive implications since Focus Blast will almost always be preferred for special Fighting, but I think flavor-wise I'd rather not allow it. The majority of pokemon that learn this move have some form of spiritual undertones whether it be through their type (usually Fighting or Psychic) or their design/personality. The most notable exceptions to this are Clawitzer and Blastoise who learn the move solely based on their ability (rip MegaStoise never forget) so I'm mostly comfortable with blacklisting this on flavor precedent.
Poison Jab: I think the lower power of this move makes it more acceptable than something as strong as Sludge Bomb/Iron Tail but I think I'd rather utilize the offensively worse Iron Head for our token 80bp fairy coverage slot. Blacklist.
Earth Power: It's fine. We already have EQ and EP simply expands our ground coverage to both offensive spectrums without causing any foreseeable issues. Approve.
Flash Cannon/Iron Head: As I've mentioned previously I think going for the weaker Steel-type options is where we want to be for our anti-Fairy coverage and these are just that. Steel is pretty bad coverage outside of some of our Fairy switch-ins, (not nearly as many as Poison tho) so I think they'll be fine for the purposes of the 1.0 release. Approve.
Wild Charge: Ehhh I don't know, really neutral on this one. I guess it's fine? As far as our Electric moves go we're going to prefer using Tbolt/Thunder most of the time anyway soooo... yeah. I really don't have a strong opinion either way on this one lol, it's fine.
Play Rough/Dazzling Gleam: I'm not fond of these tbh. While Fairy is a bit redundant with our Dragon STAB + Fighting coverage it does allows us to do things like hit Tomo and Kerf for SE in one slot, but otherwise I can't think of many competitive reasons these would be used. Flavor is also pretty poor especially in Gleam's case so I think I'd prefer blacklist.

Tutors/Other
Dual Wingbeat: It's fine. It's low power, non-STAB and inaccurate so it definitely doesn't have any comp hang-ups. Mentioned it a bit during Acro but flying isn't a great coverage type for us, so I think that on top of a shitload of Bug-types learning it I think it's a solid flavor pick. Approve.
Scorching Sands: Not a move in the list but since it somehow keeps coming up in discussions I feel obligated to talk about how stinky it is. It's a really poor option for competitive as we'd realistically never run it over EP/EQ and burn fishing with a weak move just isn't desirable for 28. It's also really bad flavor as only Fire and Ground-types learn it.
Super Fang: Somewhat similarly to Encore I feel like this is just an excessive addition but one that does sound more interesting. I think had we the time to get replays of it in action it would've been nice to discuss it more but for now I think it's tentatively fine for the 1.0 release. If anything it does fit our big bitey flavor.

Again I apologize in advance if flavor isn't a major concern at this stage but I found myself unable to have a solid opinion on a lot of these without mentioning the flavor implications.

 

[Reviloja753]

Screens: ....Are you high? Blacklist. These moves are not concept relevant whatsoever and have no business being on this Pokémon, yet could in theory change how we play. Outta here.

Stomping Tantrum: Weaker than EQ nine times out of ten, approve.

Poison / Steel coverage: I personally feel that the value of these as coverage options is being somewhat overstated. Our moves are pretty cramped as is in terms of moves we’d love to run (FI/EQ/Megahorn/Thunder/Taunt/CC), so considering our STAB combination I frankly do not see it being ran, especially when Poison and Steel are not exactly great offensive types to begin with. I understand the concern with them though, so I think they should be left on the 1.0 movepool for testing, and then we should make a decision based on what the 1.0 release tells us.

Fairy coverage: This on the other hand would likely have no problem slotting into sets, as Fairy is a god-like coverage type, especially when we have Ground and Electric already. Ground/Electric/Fairy hits every Pokémon in the game for neutral damage at minimum. There isn’t really too many defensive Pokémon that can super safely come in on us besides the likes of Ferrothorn, which drinks and Earthquake for breakfast. Either way, this seems unneeded and risky. Blacklist.

Hazards are, as I’ve said a bunch of times, slapped on for viability’s sake. I don’t wanna repeat myself so blacklist. If we have to try one I’m willing to give Tspikes a try since those are rarer right now but still.

Water coverage has no reason being here, but idk if it should be blacklisted or not because it’s not useful against anything that should counter us but it’s also why?

May add more later but I’m feeling tense rn and I’m not home so yea byeeeeee

 

[quziel]

252+ Atk Heracross Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 140-165 (45.3 - 53.3%) -- 35.5% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Heracross Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kerfluffle: 224-264 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Iron Head doesn't really fundamentally change the fact that Kerf can switch in freely once on us and force us out, especially since we don't have priority (FI yes, but that's not usable the turn after Iron Head). I think if we wanna tech into beating down Fairy types we should be able to. The mon is frail and slow enough that we can afford to have it lack hard counters. Allow Iron Head. I still dislike Poison Jab because it OHKOs Jumbao, which is not something Iron Head allows.

 

[dex]

Using Zephyr's post cause I'm lazy.

Screens: I don't see the concept relevance of screens, and CAP28 most likely won't have the opportunity to use them. Blacklist.
Steel Coverage/Poison Coverage: I'm against poison coverage mainly for its interaction with . Steel coverage, on the other hand, is interesting. I would tentatively approve Iron Head and Flash Cannon.
Pseudo-trapping moves: Trapping moves don't really mesh well with the Neutralizing Gas-Regenerator interaction. Blacklist.
Acrobatics(dual wingbeat falls here too): I don't really see a situation where Flying coverage is more useful than other options, but it's not inherently broken and could find a niche. I give it a tentative approval.
Stomping Tantrum: It's been said before, just a weaker EQ. I'm fine with it. Approve.
Hydro Pump/Surf/Liquidation: This is a hard no from me. Just flavor wise, water coverage is extremely rare, and it busts matchups with and . Hard Blacklist.
Encore: Encore is incredibly strong, and I don't like how it would work on CAP28. I think we're more safe just sticking with Taunt. Blacklist.
Trick: Considering that CAP28 will most likely be running HDB, I don't think Trick is that great of an option. While it does help the blob and twins matchups, CAP28 is proficient enough in those. Blacklist.
Toxic Spikes(and SR too ig): Now I did make a Sticky Web post, but I never really supported it if I'm being honest. Entry hazards are great and all, but CAP28 is offense first and should probably stay that way. Blacklist.
Aura Sphere: No real reason to run it over Focus Blast. It's too weak to make that big of a difference. Plus, very few Pokemon get Aura Blast, so that's a Blacklist from me.
Earth Power: I like Earth Power and it won't break any matchups further. Since CAP28 gets EQ already, I would Approve this.
Wild Charge: I'm very hesitant to allow Wild Charge, as I think it could lead to some very gross results in full physical sets. I wouldn't blacklist it right away, as I think it should get some more discussion, but that is the way I'm leaning.
Fairy Coverage: I don't really get the appeal of Fairy coverage. There's very little reason to use it. Blacklist.
Super Fang: Super Fang is very cool on CAP28. Though I doubt it'll be used given CAP28's offenses, I will tentatively approve it for use on special sets that want to take a chunk out of and noncommittally.

 

[spoo]

Poison and Steel coverage - Poison coverage interacts with Jumbao in a way that is really not desirable, as well as hitting other fairy types such as Primarina super effectively, while iron coverage simply provides us a tool to improve a few key fairy matchups if we want to. This isn't something with scary and unpredictable consequences, and it isn't something that would be added for the sake of adding either - letting CAP28 have one additional coverage move to improve (read: not outright win) a few matchups should be viewed as wholly beneficial. The only arguments against Iron Head are either a) based on flavor and therefore invalid, b) "too strong a move" (it isn't), or c) that it lets us bypass our counters which is an argument that was already addressed very well a few times in this thread. It's a balanced tech option and I'm all for approving it and blacklisting poison coverage. I'd like to see Iron Tail as well, it's a very awkward move for non compound eyes sets but I understand that it might be considered too strong in its ability to OHKO a -def natured Kerf 50% of the time, as well as chunking Jumbao for a lot more than Iron Head does. I personally think it is a balanced option but I'm not going to push.

Thoughts on other moves-
screens- totally unnecessary, BL
trapping moves- not only unnecessary, but very dangerous as well. BL
acrobatics & dual WB - I don't think these would ever really be relevant? it feels a bit like adding for the sake of adding, but I think flying coverage is among the least problematic coverage types and I could sorta see it being a very niche tech. leaning towards approve but I don't particularly care
ground coverage- we already have earthquake, weaker options should be approved, including earth power for use on special sets
water coverage- messes with our checks & counters list but not even in a way that's meaningful competitively such as iron coverage, there is no reason to add it and I don't want to have my rhyperior ohko'd on the ladder by a random NP + hydro pump set, BL
encore- I don't think this move is particularly strong or overpowered but I do agree with dex in that we are safer sticking with taunt, an option that is already established as balanced and effective - let's not convolute our movepool too much, BL
trick- same reasoning as trapping moves, let's not have another astro moment, BL
toxic spikes & stealth rock - toxic spikes I view as largely unnecessary, I think we are already established in our roles and have a good set of tools at our disposal and we should not really be unnecessarily complicating this. I don't think it would be broken either but I'd say it's among the riskier options when it comes to balancing. I am more sympathetic towards stealth rock because we basically have one good SR setter in the metagame rn, and having an offensive rocker that beats libra seems really valuable for a lot of builds. however, this concept doesn't really "need" it either, and I want to stay consistent with "not complicating our roles" and all, so leaning towards BL for both but if SR sneaks through then I would not be sad
aura sphere- we have focus blast already. approve
edit: virtually no pokemon learn aura sphere but not focus blast, however there is a plethora of examples for when the opposite is true - i hate making arguments based on flavor here, but when one option is strictly inferior to the other 99% of the time, i think it's warranted to consider in-game precedent. there are a ton of two stage bug types and other miscellaneous mons with similar bst's that we could be grouped in with that only learn focus blast and don't get aura sphere, and very few mons in general get both, so I am sorta leaning towards not getting sphere for this cap. ultimately I think the right move, though, is to leave it in limbo and let the movepool makers decide for themselves
wild charge- I don't think it really changes any matchups? we have EQ for pex, bug stab for slowtwins, thunder for tomo, it might be nice for mandibuzz but that's about it. it's a 90bp move with recoil so I think it's fairly balanced. I want to stay consistent with myself and say BL because in a way it's coverage for the sake of coverage, but I find myself in a similar position with flying moves - leaning approve but it's a very weak stance
fairy coverage- both unnecessary and dangerous. I don't think it would see use but fairy is too good of an offensive type to be handing out when we are at this stage in movesets. BL
super fang- I have no opinion on this competitively but it would be downright unforgivable if this didn't end up making it into our final moveset

 

[MrDollSteak]

Have some time today to finally post my thoughts. I'm focusing primarily on the controversial moves in the order that Zeta posted them as I believe that's roughly chronological.

Move Discussion

TMs

Light Screen/Reflect: As others have mentioned, I don't think that these two moves are particularly flavorful or pro-concept. As such, Blacklist.
Steel Wing: While I think that Steel coverage is potentially safe, I don't think that it makes sense based on flavor, and as such recommend Blacklist.
Whirlpool/Sand Tomb/Infestation: I'm not a fan of partial trapping at all. It doesn't do much to stop teleporters, but as we have seen with Astrolotl can be used to practically delete Toxapex from the game, and mind be able to do the same to others. I think we discourage pivoting strategies enough without needing to cheese teams and as such recommend that they are all placed on the Blacklist.
Acrobatics: The flavour and potential power feels off to me, Blacklist.
Stomping Tantrum: While we do have Earthquake which is more powerful, I don't think it's the most flavorful. Blacklist.

TRs

Hydro Pump/Surf/Liquidation: Not much to add that hasn't been said. Dodgy flavour, potentially bad relationship with C and C. Blacklist.
Sludge Bomb/Wave: While this hasn't been discussed all too extensively, in the few games I've seen, as well as due to its potential to OHKO Jumbao very easily, I think that Poison coverage is too much, even if the flavour is there. As there. Blacklist.
Encore: Compared to Taunt I think that Encore punishes the wrong types of Pokemon, such as Set-up sweepers or hazard setters. Blacklist.
Iron Tail: While Iron Tail is at quite a high base power level, it still fails to OHKO Kerfluffle consistently, unless it is Adamant and has a Life Orb equipped. As a lure option I think it's reasonable because it doesn't hit much else that existing coverage moves don't. Allow.
Trick: Considering how successful the Choice Band set is already, and based on Astrolotl needing the move removed, I'm suggesting that we Blacklist.
Muddy Water: Blacklist.
TSpikes/Stealth Rock: Not a fan of hazards at all, I think they distract from what we're aiming to achieve with CAP 28, and due to the presence of Heavy-Duty Boots, may not actually punish pivoting strategies as much as just using our other options. Blacklist.
Aura Sphere: While competitively I think this move is fine, I think the flavour is pretty off. Considering that Clawitzer and Blastoise's primary flavour justification is that they use cannons, I suppose it could be allowed on that precedent. Ambivalent.
Poison Jab: As mentioned previously, Poison coverage is a bit too much because it can easily OHKO Jumbao. Blacklist.
Earth Power: While I think that the move is competitively fine, I think the flavour is a little iffy in relation to say Earthquake, as Earth Power generally implies some kind of relationship to swamps or the earth itself, which CAP 28 doesnt in my opinion. I think that our special options are reasonable as they are. As such, Blacklist.
Flash Cannon/Iron Head: I think that steel coverage is reasonable. Iron Head and Flash Cannon both preserve Kerf and other Fairies as checks unless we're running Band or Specs. Approve.
Wild Charge: I'm not a fan of the flavour of this. In addition, I think that Electric Coverage physically compresses a lot of what we can do and will likely force out Thunderbolt or Thunder, as well as being pretty strong on Band sets. Blacklist.
Play Rough/Dazzling Gleam: Fairy coverage competes quite significantly with Dragon, and actually hits a lot of things we shouldn't be aiming to as much. That's ignoring any dodgy flavour. Blacklist.

Tutors/Other
Dual Wingbeat: Not a fan of flying coverage as mentioned before, and flavour isn't super large in my opinion as the elytra on CAP 28 are reasonably small. Blacklist.
Super Fang: Super Fang is great flavour for us, but I think is likely to be quite a powerful and restrictive move. It's excellent role compression by being able to chunk anything at full health for 50% which in combination with our monstrous offenses and decent coverage could allow us to become incredibly potent. Blacklist.