CAP 14 CAP 3 - Part 7 - Second Flavor Ability Discussion

[Scoopapa]

So I had made a big post regarding this:

Drought Unreleased for the playtest, and immediately released in the general CAP metagame once the ladder is rebooted, because we're programming it in but it won't be available during the playtest just like unreleased DW abilities on Pokemon we already know are programmed for them.

In which I argued for the need to discuss the effect Drought would have on the CAP metagame before simply throwing it in for "flavor" reasons.

Now DK and RD are assuring us that there would be a second discussion and vote before it would ever be released, which is sort of what I was asking for. However, I'm still not sure if it's fair to ask us to vote on Drought without discussing those obvious potential consequences, if the second vote won't even be open to us. Is this the case? Because if so, it's still a "flavor" decision that could end up having massive consequences on the CAP metagame, which the same people who voted might not have any control over. If that's the case, then we still have reason to express concerns about the CAP metagame, since this vote will be our last chance to actually do anything about it. I know the CAP metagame is pretty low on our list of priorities, but last time I checked so was flavor. If we aren't allowed to talk about any of the incredibly real (but not relevant?) consequences that Unreleased Drought could have, then can we just have traditional flavor abilities on the slate? Only one or the other makes sense to me. Either let us have a discussion tailored to the unexplored area of "unreleased 'flavor' ability that is actually one of the strongest abilities in the game" or let us only talk about flavor and only vote about flavor. The main reason we usually do not consider the CAP metagame is because we are supposed to craft a pokemon for the OU metagame, and any changes would affect its performance in both. However, we are clearly not affecting the playtest with an unreleased ability, so really there should be an exception (much like the one that allows Drought to be a flavor ability). I'm not saying this new wave of Drought is a malicious conspiracy but right now pushing an ability whose only possible effect is in the CAP metagame and then saying "nono, we don't talk about the CAP metagame" looks really bad, especially with an ability that was such a polarizing issue.

As for Drought flavor-wise, I think it makes no sense, and if flavor were truly the only thing we were deciding on, I don't think it would belong on the slate. It completely contradicts Dry Skin, an ability that implies the pokemon wants to stay moist. Really, the pokemon who currently have Dry Skin are a fungus (obvious relation to moisture) a frog (obvious relation to moisture) and an opera singer (less obvious relation to moisture but I'll argue it later). The battle effect of healing in rain and losing health in sun supports this completely. So we'd be painting an image of some Mollux who stay in moist habitats (underwater?) because of the potential dangers of their skin drying out, while others go around causing droughts by their mere presence (a predicament similar to DJD's radioactive dog perhaps). It really doesn't make sense at all, regardless of whether GF's previous picks for Drought have anything in common. Speaking of pokemon that GF gave Drought to, remember Groudon? The pokemon who wanted to dry out the oceans so that the land pokemon could thrive to the exclusion of the sea pokemon? Groudons whole purpose for being manifests in the game mechanics as its ability, Drought. Yet we want to give this same ability not only to a pokemon based on a species that is notoriously threatened by a lack of moisture (salt on slugs anyone?), but to such a pokemon whose other ability already reflects that aspect of its biology. To me, it makes no sense.

Of course, I might still vote for Drought since it would be cool in the CAP metagame.

[HIDE="reason for Jynx having Dry Skin]
Although the basis of Jynx' design is pretty hotly debated, it is safe to say from her sprite poses and pokedex description that she is some kind of performer (I say opera singer since she is singing in some sprites and looks like a stereotypical Wagnerian nordic character). As a performer and a female only humanshape pokemon, we can assume she is well versed in beauty and hygiene products. Many of these products are applied to the skin and can leave it dry if they are poor quality products or incorrectly used. Think about how many soaps and beauty products you've seen that advertise moisturizing the skin? Jynx is persnickety about her appearance and perhaps a bit of a drama queen, so she is very particular about her beauty products and will not stand for something that dries her skin. This is obviously a lot more subjective than the fungus or frog but I think my argument stands even if my reasoning is wrong and Jynx' Dry Skin is just an anomaly.
[/HIDE]

 

[Deck Knight]

Benefiting from flavor is kind of a silly concept, you're putting flavor ON to make the CAP seem more "real", not bargaining over Mollux's inherent flavor. IMO having a lamp that basically has a miniature sun in it (or something that looks like it) is pretty cool justification for Drought: It's what goes on inside the shell, whereas Dry Skin is what Mollux has outside the shell. It uses its shell as a heat regulation device by storing it there.

Of course that's just my undexed therymoning, but in any case it *is* pretty cool and it's simply to argue flavor for anything with a proper imagination.

Dusk, don't mini-mod and threadjack, like you have warned in #cap. The argument has been made, people will either accept it or they won't. You don't want to be a GWB Expy: "I violated CAP's principles to save it!"

As it stands, Unreleased Drought will be an option, and if the CAP Mods want to hesitate in releasing it, I'll leave it to the rest of them to hash that out. For our purposes it won't be available for the playtest.

24 hour warning.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

1. Unreleased Drought means that CAP3 will have usable Drought in the CAP metagame. Even if this wasn't RD's initial intent, it has pretty much been spelled out that way by DK.

No, you just don't get it. It doesn't matter what Deck said, Deck cannot unilaterally make a decision for the PRC. It is a policy decision, and thus is completely out of the jurisdiction of the TL. And beyond that, more than half of the PRC is against revisions anyway, so the likelihood it gets released is quite low.

The only thing people can't discuss is the policy behind this. If you want to make a post about how you think Drought is shitty flavor, go for it. But as soon as you make a post about the policy behind it, you are policy-jumping and completely derailing this thread. This thread is for discussing flavor abilities, not policy decisions.

Dusk, don't mini-mod and threadjack, like you have warned in #cap. The argument has been made, people will either accept it or they won't.

Very well, this will be my last post then. Quite frankly, however, people need to understand what is going on here and what isn't going on here.

 

[trulyElse]

IMO having a lamp that basically has a miniature sun in it (or something that looks like it) is pretty cool justification for Drought: It's what goes on inside the shell, whereas Dry Skin is what Mollux has outside the shell. It uses its shell as a heat regulation device by storing it there.

Thank you for addressing my concerns in my previous post.

I could now support Drought as a forever-unreleased flavour, although I wonder if it's really worth voting about release after testing.

We've already decided that Non-competitive abilities are more favored here than an outright avaliable drought, and releasing drought post-test comes off as a sort of veto against the CAP project as a whole.

 

[Gerard]

I still think Flame Body it's a great flavour ability, and (possibly) having a sun inside of it's shell really gives him even more of a reason to have it

Lamps are made so they're ressistant to not break themselves with little hits and even some strong one, so there's only a small change something goes wrong and you hurt yourself, so that way if a pokemon damages Mollux it might not have usch an impact that it will destroy it, but there's a (30%) change that it will hit it staight, or hit mollux just a bit too had, or whatever, and that way you burn yourself with the (easily toxic) substances inside the lamp

And no this is not that competitive, while Mollux could burn pokes using a ressited hit such s U-turn and CC, isn't this a way to use his typing?, he has a lot o trouble switching in again and again, as he loses over 25% of it's health each time he tries to burn the opponent, just switching twice on ressisted attacks waiting to burn the opponent might easily kill him if SR is on the field, which means a 51% chance of burning over his entire lifespan, barely worth it over a full water immunity but still usable on certain ocasions, this might even let to some restrictions, where Illuminate and Dry Skin can get something like Morning Sun while Flame Body doesn't, making all three abilities wil some sort of niche

 

[Scoopapa]

Drought doesn't just go on inside the shell though, otherwise it wouldn't effect the weather. Also, if the inside of the shell is a Drought then what's with all the liquid? Illuminate goes on inside the shell, sure. Illuminate and Dry Skin work together to address two aspects of the biology; it needs to have moist skin and it generates light from its shell. Neither contradicts the other. Drought still contradicts Dry Skin, though. It's not because I am erroneously looking for inherent flavor when we're really supposed to be adding flavor. It's just that if dryness of skin is supposed to be dangerous then being the great bringer of droughts would be suicidal. You can imagine that, in canon, where we aren't restricted by the game mechanics of only one ability, mollux the creature would have both moisture-requiring skin and a shiny shell (like Muk might be stinky and simultaneously sticky). However, if Mollux is both threatened by intense sunlight and is some kind of Sun deity who brings endless sun and dryness wherever it goes (pokemon are all deities of some sort) then there is a serious problem.

I guess if we choose Drought we could make it a fossil pokemon, who went extinct as a result of its heinously mismatched abilities.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Question: Couldn't a really ridiculously outrageously strong Illuminate serve as a heat source?

 

[Gerard]

Drought doesn't just go on inside the shell though, otherwise it wouldn't effect the weather. Also, if the inside of the shell is a Drought then what's with all the liquid? Illuminate goes on inside the shell, sure. Illuminate and Dry Skin work together to address two aspects of the biology; it needs to have moist skin and it generates light from its shell. Neither contradicts the other. Drought still contradicts Dry Skin, though. It's not because I am erroneously looking for inherent flavor when we're really supposed to be adding flavor. It's just that if dryness of skin is supposed to be dangerous then being the great bringer of droughts would be suicidal. You can imagine that, in canon, where we aren't restricted by the game mechanics of only one ability, mollux the creature would have both moisture-requiring skin and a shiny shell (like Muk might be stinky and simultaneously sticky). However, if Mollux is both threatened by intense sunlight and is some kind of Sun deity who brings endless sun and dryness wherever it goes (pokemon are all deities of some sort) then there is a serious problem.

I guess if we choose Drought we could make it a fossil pokemon, who went extinct as a result of its heinously mismatched abilities.

Or they could be just two branches of the same species (think gastrodon) one that lives in the desser, another lives in the rainforest

 

[Red Riddler]

If Stall and Klutz are making the slate, can we revive the idea of Slow Start? It's even worse than Illuminate (unless you're trying some sort of sadistic Trick Room team, which I totally would) and is obvious for flavor. Some thought was put into it last time around, and I sort of liked the idea.

And guys, Flame Body, Suction Cups, and Weak Armor can be exploited to be advantageous. I think that goes against the heart of Molluxe, and that's abusing Dry Skin.

 

[big boss daddy]

a little late but i would like to bring Magma Armor into consideration seeing as how Mollux is a lava lamp. Lava = Magma

 

[Treadshot A1]

Very late to jump in here, but i'm just going to add that Aftermath, Suction Cups and Weak Armor are the only ones that really make sense for Mollux.

Aftermath because when a Lava Lamp cracks open, the stuff inside can and likely will hurt you.

Suction Cups needs no explanation.

Weak Armor because a lava lamp is very easy to destroy.

I get that those three can be exploited to be useful (Max Def Aftermath Mollux Stall anyone?), but at least they make some sense to be on the pokemon. I left out Magma armor because magma =/= lava (yet, it's a slight difference, but they're still not the same thing).

I can't believe people are still arguing over Drought, given that the vote (Drought/NCA) resulted in NCA. That means the majority doesn't want Drought. If we add in Drought now, even as an unreleased flavour ability, then we'd be disregarding the vote. In that case, why did we all even bother to vote, if the results are just ignored? (someone's bound to interpret this as an angry comment aimed at the TL or something, it's not. I'm just saying it's disregarding the vote, that's all)

Also, Drought as flavor doesn't make sense. It's a snail with a lava lamp on it. A very awesome lava lamp, but still just a lava lamp. That thing cannot possibly cause eternal drought just by its presence. I know people will wonder how Ninetales and Groudon can, but at least both of them have their roots in folklore (real or pokemon-wise), which at least means they can be expected to have abilities which might not necessarily be possible in the real world. Ninetales comes from Japanese folklore (kitsune) and Groudon is basically a pokemon deity. I don't know of any folklore that justifies a snail to be able to cause eternal drought. The lamp might glow and illuminate, but it'd take the world's most powerful illumination to be able to cause that much heat (it's also be the world's most inefficient light source, as lamps minimise heat output and maximise light emission).

And to reiterate, having both Dry Skin and Drought on a pokemon is suicidal for that pokemon. Even freaking Gastrodon had abilities which didn't contradict each other, and that thing had two different regions to occupy and even different colourings to distinguish between the two.

Oh, and yeah, i support Aftermath. In case that wasn't clear enough. I suppose Suction Cups could work as a suitable substitute.

 

[FireArrow]

In general I'm thinking of keeping the power level up or around Illuminate's for anything that isn't specialized.

Maybe this is just my lack of understanding of how slating works, but don't you think it would be better if we had a mix of semi-competitive abilities (ones that might work in a gimmicky strategy, but pale in comparison to dry skin) and completely useless abilities. That, way, the community can decide on that aspect. Again, sorry if slating doesn't work that way. Anyways...

Weak Armor definitely has competitive merit, maybe even too much to be considered (as a few people pointed out.) I just think that the flavor aspect of it is too great to pass up.

I would also like to bring up the idea of a version of Liquid Ooze that burns rather than damages. Not really competitively viable, as the only move that this would really effect is Drain Punch (the only drain move that physical attackers use.) I don't know, I just think it is a more flavorful version of Liquid Ooze (which already has awesome flavor.)

I also support...

Color Change: Lava Lamps changing colors, it adds so much flavor (whoever originally thought of this is awesome.) The only issue with this is that it can change CAP3's bad typing thus defeating the concept.

Liquid Ooze: That liquid inside it has got to be toxic, otherwise, I don't see how this mon could be a poison type.

Wonder Skin: This really brings out the "magical" feeling of lava lamps. On paper, it doesn't make to much sense, but I really think it fits. (Once again, props to whoever thought of this.)

EDIT:

I think it is important to say that Mollux really needs a flavor abilty that makes the liquid inside the lamp toxic/lava (as that has yet to be covered, and, unless I'm mistaken, it a VERY important part of Mollux's flavor.)) This means I support liquid ooze and my variation of it A LOT more, and I also support Aftermath, Blaze, and Magma Armor.

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

What ever happened to Slow Start? I recall one person making a meh argument against it contingent on it trying to abuse Trick Room, but that's about it. It's a snail. Snails are slow. As fast as this thing as and considering that it is a snail, it makes sense flavor-wise to me that it might have a bit of a Slow Start to get that fast. Nobody sane is going to give up Water immunity to maybe try to abuse Trick Room with a 4x-Ground-weak Pokemon.

Liquid Ooze also looks fantastically flavorful to me. It can't be good for leechers to absorb molten wax (or toxins or whatever we end up deciding is supposed to be in that lava lamp). While it's normally not a bad ability, it's particularly useless on Molly here because (a) Dry Skin is far better for her and (b) she already resists most draining moves like Drain Punch, Giga Drain, and Horn Leech.

As for this whole thing about unreleased Drought, I'm definitely not a fan of the idea.

 

[Krabmeat]

Not a fan of Slow Start, simply because people seem to be overlooking the latter half of the name. A snail doesn't really build momentum, he starts slow and keeps slow.

Magma Armor is definitely the most flavouristic ability possible, after illuminate. Lava lamp as a shell and all that.

 

[Cresselia92]

We're not saying "F*** you!" to anybody. Gosh, why there is so much swearing here?
Anyway, I reconsidered a lot of things. Now having Drought or not having it is fine with me, I don't care so much anymore. I want to cite again the Ampharos example: even if its light can be seen from space it hasn't access to Illuminate. GF didn't give this ability to it, even if is really flavorful, and everyone is fine with that. Same thing with an ipothetical Drought Volcarona (the Pokédex said that they replaced the sun when ashes darkened the atmosphere. Sounds fitting, no?). Now, we're not forced to give to Mollux an ability only because we can. Heck, even not giving it a third ability is fine with me… and I was really adamant against that option.
But in all honesty I still support:
water variant of Heatproof : to live in a underwater environment it needs something to protect against the ubiquitous Water Pokémon (nobody gave a [censored] to it, but I'm not mad about that. I can't pretend to make somebody like a made-up ability)
Weak Armor: glass-alike shell = fragile (even Skarmory, that is made of steel, has this ability. I don't see why this CAP can't)
Color Change: I discovered that if a dual-typed Pokémon has Color Change and is hit by a move it loses both its types. If CAP loses both its STABs in one turn it becomes much less dangerous. And I find the ability very fitting to it
Sturdy: it can endure a hit by hiding in the shell, like Shuckle and Dwebble
Shell Armor: no explanation needed
Flame Body: Volcarona says hello. And hot/acid liquid can burn
Suction Cups: it can anchor on the floor to prevent the marine currents to carry it away
Aftermath: shell breaks… BANG, corrosive acid/lava splattered everywhere!
Sniper: even if we gave to this thing Cross Poison it can't really exploit it, even if it has Coil or Shell Smash. And looking back, seems very fitting

Well, those are my thoughts. I no more care about the weather. Either way, I'll deal with it. Period (for real, this time).

 

[Asylum_Rhapsody]

Some statistics about this thread:

Hide

# of supporters - Ability Name(s)
15 - Liquid Ooze
12 - Drought
9 - Suction Cups
8 - Gluttony, Sticky Hold
6 - Color Change, Sniper, Weak Armor
5 - Limber, Tangled Feet
4 - Damp, Magma Armor
3 - Aftermath, Insomnia
2 - Cute Charm, Flame Body, Klutz, Shell Armor, Slow Start, Stall, Wonder Skin
1 - Blaze, Clear Body, Flash Fire, Heatproof, Hustle, Overcoat, Poison Touch, Regenerator, Rough Skin, Shed Skin, Stench, Sturdy, Water Absorb, "Hustle (special)", "Liquid Ooze (burn)", "Waterproof"

# of opposers - Ability Name(s)
24 - Drought
6 - Suction Cups
5 - Flame Body
3 - Tangled Feet
2 - Color Change, Limber, Weak Armor
1 - Insomnia, Poison Touch, Slow Start

# of supporters minus # of opposers - Ability Name(s)
15 - Liquid Ooze
8 - Gluttony, Sticky Hold
6 - Sniper
4 - Color Change, Damp, Magma Armor, Weak Armor
3 - Aftermath, Limber, Suction Cups
2 - Cute Charm, Insomnia, Klutz, Shell Armor,Stall, Tangled Feet, Wonder Skin
1 - Blaze, Clear Body, Flash Fire, Heatproof, Hustle, Overcoat, Regenerator, Rough Skin, Shed Skin, Slow Start, Stench, Sturdy, Water Absorb, "Hustle (special)", "Liquid Ooze (burn)", "Waterproof"
0 - Poison Touch
-3 - Flame Body
-12 - Drought

Do note that my count may have a margin of error of one or two posters, as some posts mentioned abilities but were unclear in whether they supported or opposed it or made too many statements of conditional support or opposition for me to be able to count them one way or the other.

EDIT: What I'm trying to get across with this post is that I think that there are a lot of flavorful abilities with a considerable amount of support that I think are being overlooked, among them Liquid Ooze, Gluttony, Sticky Hold, and Sniper. Post count isn't everything, of course, as post count is very different from post quality. It just might be worth looking at. =)

 

[tea_and_blues]

In all this turmoil I am yet to see a coherent or remotely convincing flavour-based defence of unreleased Drought given the fact that this Pokemon has Dry Skin (the ability, not literally dry skin). This is something I would very much like to see before it is slated if it is, indeed, slated.

I made one myself, for my art entry, which was that perhaps CAP3 - now Mollux - absorbs moisture from the air when it isn't around water, but even now I know I invented that scenario out of necessity and I find it pretty tenuous, especially given the Pokemon is taking damage and not healing under sun. I really want to know how this ability might work as flavour, and that means how it would function as a coherent part the Pokemon's living and environment.

Damp, Liquid Ooze or Sticky Hold barely need such an explanation, their connection to this Pokemon's snailful flavour is so obvious. How does Drought connect?

Edit:

Even in this case, where Drought actually works for the concept

This is pretty much my whole point. I keep hearing things along these lines, and each time I think: How? How does Drought actually work for the concept here?

 

[Korski]

@Rhapsody: those numbers... Ugh all you did was prove that more anti-Drought people posted in this thread than Drought supporters. None of that numbers stuff is really relevant, as most voters don't always post to announce their vote or intentions ahead of time. The only relevant numbers regarding Drought and this project are the numbers 102 and 94, the results from the Drought/NSA poll. Don't put words in peoples' mouths and say "the community" flatly rejected Drought with a 52% vote; that's not a strong argument. Beyond that, the unrealeased Drought idea actually sounds like a good compromise between two arguments that could literally flip majorities depending on what time or day it is. Saying Drought should never ever be allowed because of the 102-94 vote is called the "tyranny of the majority" and is actually undemocratic, if you want to brung stuff like CAP's democratic process into the debate.

But really this "unreleased DW Ability" thought is intriguing for policy reasons. It could be used in future CAPs to expand the project beyond its original concept, teaching us more about each CAP without compromising the playtest or the original goals of the project itself. Even in this case, where Drought actually works for the concept, its use is confined to a "non-existent" state until we've learned what we had to learn from the playtest. This means there's more of the CAP to explore after the playtest AND it would most likely get people interested in at least observing matches in the CAP meta, or better yet start playing along themselves.

 

[Treadshot A1]

Korski, you can say what you want about democratic procedure, but the fact is in all the chances we've given Drought, it never made the cut. The posts in his thread, the votes in the poll(s), every time Drought has LOST. It might not be a huge majority, but it's a majority which has been shown to repeat itself over and over again.

Also, there has yet to be any flavour argument for Drough which makes any sense. Other abilities like Weak Armour and Aftermath make sense, Drought does not.

What this shows me is that there are people in authoritative positions who want Drought, and no matter how many times the community has voted otherwise, those few aren't willing to accept the decision, to the point where they'll consider the most outlandish proposals (like Unreleased DW abilities) just to get Drought on the Snail, and they'll repeat themselves as many times as it takes until people finally give in.

I for one accept the fact that snails can't cause Drought, and accept that making it have Drought would go against all flavour sense. Until someone thinks of a reasonable flavour argument, I'll stay opposed to Drought, unreleased or not.


*yes, this is bound to attract hatred, but hatred means nothing if drought supporters can't back up their ability with a decent flavour-relevant explanation.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Color Change: Lava Lamps changing colors, it adds so much flavor (whoever originally thought of this is awesome.) The only issue with this is that it can change CAP3's bad typing thus defeating the concept.

I'd oppose colour cange. it kinda goes against every concept of this CAP: that its typing become a selling point rather than a drawback . . . and having its typing be REMOVED is kinda... well, the antithesis of that. Flavor or no. Plus, it's not like most lava lamps change colour anyway.

 

[MCBarrett]

Korski, I think all that rhapsody is trying to point out is that there are many viable flavor abilities that people have given solid arguments for in terms of flavor yet it doesn't seem like Deck is going to slate them so he's trying to point them out.

Also, I think everyone has to remember that these abilities are for flavor only so all arguments should only regard flavor, and all proposals should be in line with the flavor of mollux. I mean I suppose you could make an argument that mollux's lava lamp could get hot enough to change the weather but there are some way more obvious characteristics of a snail that could be used as a flavor ability so I think people should give up arguing for drought unless they truly believe it is the best option flavor wise. I mean, I voted for drought in the secondary ability poll because it would be used competitively if voted for there which would make lots of sense. But it wouldn't make sense giving drought as a flavor ability to a Pokemon that prefers rain IMO so I won't be voting for it here.

 

[Tetrinity]

24 hour warning.

Out of curiosity; what might we expect from a further twenty-four hours of discussion on this matter? Can't wait to get this part out of the way, personally...

Korski, you can say what you want about democratic procedure, but the fact is in all the chances we've given Drought, it never made the cut. The posts in his thread, the votes in the poll(s), every time Drought has LOST. It might not be a huge majority, but it's a majority which has been shown to repeat itself over and over again.

This is an important point that I think more people need to pay attention to. I originally wanted Drought on this guy. After changing my mind a considerable number of times, I ended up voting for it in the first ability polls. But at this point, to misuse common cliche, we're beating a dead snail.

Here's the deal; Drought clearly is not as flavourful as other suggested abilities, since those can be simply and easily justified in a single sentence instead of requiring an entire piece of (admittedly really cool) supporting art. Gluttony makes sense because cone snails can eat fish whole at insane speed. Aftermath makes sense because Mollux's shell breaks after fainting. Easy.

I know a lot of people really wanted a weather ability on a CAP, even if just to mess around with it in the CAP metagame. But please... not today. Unreleased Drought is unflavourful, restricts the movepools and has the potential of radically changing the CAP further down the line to something that, as Treadshot mentions, voters have repeatedly struck down. Save it for some other time, guys.

 

[TubaKing]

What is it that makes Drought fit the flavors of Groudon and Ninetales, but not Mollux?

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What is it that makes Drought fit the flavors of Groudon and Ninetales, but not Mollux?

the better question is, what makes drought flavourful for mollux at all

if you're trying to argue an ability in based on flavour alone, I'd say you're the one who needs a reason.

And, no, "because it took 2nd place in two other polls" isn't flavour

 

[capefeather]

Rising_Dusk's posts make me feel guilty for not helping Wyverii moderate this thread more >_<

I do agree with what Rising_Dusk posted on the matter (hell, I said the same thing TWICE, just didn't threaten to warn people), but it seems the warning is finally being heeded. People are finally coming up with flavour arguments for/against flavour abilities including Drought. I like that the Ninetales justification was brought up, but to clarify the claim more using a quote from #cap:

<Gothic_Togekiss> I just realized why Ninetales get Drought. It's based around kitsune no yomeiri or the kitsune's wedding. Basically it's Kistune marrying each another under a sunshower.

I think that it's still worth noting that two Pokémon aren't as great at establishing flavour as however many have e.g. Tangled Feet, but a connection has been made. I also think that people on both supporting and opposing sides of this have gotten the flavour of Drought kind of muddled. Drought has less to do with summoning the sun in some mystical way, and more to do with clearing the sky of clouds and all precipitation.

---

All that said, this continued argument about citing Drought's rejection in the past is completely fallacious and I'm disappointed that it continues to be brought up. Drought now and Drought then are in different contexts. Drought was rejected as a competitive ability, not as a flavour ability. And if you did vote against Drought for flavour reasons in the competitive poll, well, that was dumb, to be blunt.

I'm also honestly disappointed in this discussion in general. I could sort of understand this kind of hostility in the competitive discussions (though it shouldn't be tolerated in those, either), but in flavour discussions? Really, guys? It's a freaking flavour discussion; people shouldn't be regretting submitting something for consideration. What gets me more is that current and potential PRC members have, throughout the project even, done more to fuel the fires of emotional/ideological rhetoric than douse them. People complain so much about having more options, more perspectives, and more directions represented. Well, if you want all that so much, then stop being a hypocrite by rejecting existing viewpoints as invalid.

Lastly, I'd like to talk about the implications of existing policy on unreleased abilities. Again, I stress that this is not relevant to this project, any more than ASB is. I do, however, think that Deck Knight's attempts to clarify the policy on this has legitimately led to more confusion because he has attempted to make rulings that are a matter of general policy, which is beyond the TL's jurisdiction. Looking back at what's been talked about, though, I don't entirely blame him. Releasing Drought Mollux would almost certainly have a profound impact on the CAP metagame, so people talk about it, which would understandably lead to mix-ups.

The policy as it stands currently does not allow any revisions, even ones whose purpose is solely to keep the CAPs conforming to canon. I'd say it follows, then, that an unreleased ability would stay unreleased, having about as much competitive impact in the CAP metagame as which sprite will eventually win the sprite polls. An unreleased ability does not somehow "deserve" to be allowed in the CAP metagame, any more than Mewtwo is allowed to have Nasty Plot. It will only ever matter in the (imo highly unlikely) event that every (non-legendary?) Hidden Ability is released, AND the policy demands that we conform to canon AND PRC determines that releasing Drought would be in the spirit of conforming to canon. At that point, I don't think it really matters at all, since everything we put on a CAP is subject to mechanical changes, anyway (e.g. Lightningrod Voodoom, Tail Glow Syclant), so it seems rather silly to look at this as some special case that deserves special policy changes.

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A warning. Only the part above the --- is meant to be responded to in this thread, since it's the only part that's directly relevant specifically to this thread. The stuff about democracy and precedent is fact, pure and simple. The policy stuff should really be discussed in the CAP Policy Review subforum, and I've only posted it here for clarification. In fact, there's an open thread relevant to it right now!