CAP 9 CAP 9 - Part 14a - Non-Attacking Moves Discussion

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Moonlight/Morning Sun: Sandstorm may be popular, but I still oppose these moves. Sandstorm is popular, but not omnipresent. Especially when, instead of using T-Tar for Latias trapping, Collosoil will be used instead, due to AMC/Guts, and the fact he's the playtest CAP. In other words, common situations in playtesting would cause this to be 50% recovery, which is not what we want this thing to have.

TTar's not the only guy that has Sand Stream. Hippo does as well, and everyone will probably use him for their Colossoil stopping needs 'cause he'll wall him to hell and back... maybe unless he gets Self Destruct. So unless Colossy gets Sunny Day, I suggest we allow Moonlight/MS

Toxic: We try to stick to established patterns in CAP. Fire types don't get Ice moves, ect. So, it's either, this thing gets Toxic, or Collosoil gets NO TM's. Or we break every rule in the TM rulebook.

The hell do you think Regigigas is doing? Every single Pokemon that is physically capable of learning TM's is supposed to be able to learn Substitute and Endure. But can Regi learn either? NO!! Just because we already broke the mold with Stratagem doesn't mean that we don't have the right to break the mold with the others. That being said, there's nothing wrong with disallowing Toxic, which goes against the concept by a mile.

Fake Out I oppose, as it makes it easier for Collosoil to counter the few checks it seems to have.

No it doesn't. Even if the enemy suspects and doesn't like Fake Out, he or she can switch to a physical wall. Attacks that may cause flinching never do so while the opponent switches, so all it's doing is either dealing squat douche, or taking Burn/Poison damage and returning squat douche. I don't know about you, but this give me good reason to allow Fake Out.

Encore, however, I oppose, because Roar suits the CAP far better, does the same job, but is arguably not as risky. Last thing we want is CAP9 setting up a different pokemon to sweep, with all the the issues of 'This thing is going to sweep' that we are having now.

The thing is, Colossy's already setting up other Pokemon to sweep, by stopping all the secondary stuff that stops said Pokemon from making the sweeps in the first place. Either that, or it's not doing it's job properly. So your so-called 'risk' is slightly redundant. Encore may be allowed if that's that the community wants.

Heal Bell: As I mentioned before, I support this. Adding to my 'Stops the secondary on teammates, that may have already been inflicted', it also stops anything Collosoil picked up. Body Slam from Jirachi caused Paralysis? No problem! Also, I could see a set using Guts, to take advantage of, say, Toxic from Blissey, then ridding it when it no longer needs the power boost (Wall taken down, ect)

Rock Polish I 100% oppose. No Guts sweeper has a speed boosting move, for good reason. Imagine Heracross, with better typeing, and bulk, but with +2 Speed. No, just no.

Roar I support, because it stops faster stat-ups, something this CAP cannot do right now.

The rest of the stuff I can't argue with, so disallow Rock Polish and allow Heal Bell and Roar if desired

 

[Gothic Togekiss]

I don't know why but every time I see this "____ it goes against the concept of CAP__" statement used as a basics for any argument it make me think of the "____ can't use this move because it doesn't have ____" flavor argument, which was deemed unacceptable in the CAP Process.

Anyway, I support Moonlight/Morning Sun, Roar, Toxic, and Encore. I already make my case about Moonlight/Morning a few post back and the rest of the moves aren't going to break CAP9.

 

[Anachronism]

For people who are opposing Rapid Spin: Would like you to review Rapid Spin's effect. Once you are done that, please review the mission statement for CaP9. Put two and two together. If you still don't get it, you probably shouldn't be posting here :$.
QUOTE]

What a shitty thing to say. You act as if anyone with a different opinion than you is an idiot, when in fact we have a good argument. Yes, Rapid Spin is good for the concept, but we need to ensure that CAP 9 is not overpowered, so some good inclusions might need to be left out. For example, if we REALLY wanted to make him stop the secondary, he should be able to ko all status users, so why don't we give him his own custom pursuit with 2343223234 base power? Just because something would fit the concept, it doesn't mean we should do it...

I have already explained why rapid spin may be overpowering, and objection has also commented on it. Hydrolphin has also counter-claimed me with some somewhat reasonable claims. Please read those or YOU have no business posting here.

 

[tennisace]

What a shitty thing to say. You act as if anyone with a different opinion than you is an idiot, when in fact we have a good argument. Yes, Rapid Spin is good for the concept, but we need to ensure that CAP 9 is not overpowered, so some good inclusions might need to be left out. For example, if we REALLY wanted to make him stop the secondary, he should be able to ko all status users, so why don't we give him his own custom pursuit with 2343223234 base power? Just because something would fit the concept, it doesn't mean we should do it...

I have already explained why rapid spin may be overpowering, and objection has also commented on it. Hydrolphin has also counter-claimed me with some somewhat reasonable claims. Please read those or YOU have no business posting here.

How is Colossoil going to be overpowered with a weak move that assists the concept, slows down the pace of the game, and encourages other forms of set up? You're giving Mence/Gyarados a free turn while simultaneously wasting a moveslot YEAH!

 

[Oddish On Fire]

What a shitty thing to say. You act as if anyone with a different opinion than you is an idiot, when in fact we have a good argument. Yes, Rapid Spin is good for the concept, but we need to ensure that CAP 9 is not overpowered, so some good inclusions might need to be left out. For example, if we REALLY wanted to make him stop the secondary, he should be able to ko all status users, so why don't we give him his own custom pursuit with 2343223234 base power? Just because something would fit the concept, it doesn't mean we should do it...

I have already explained why rapid spin may be overpowering, and objection has also commented on it. Hydrolphin has also counter-claimed me with some somewhat reasonable claims. Please read those or YOU have no business posting here.

Is it just me, or are people losing sight of the original concept? This is supposed to stop the second. In order to stop the second (including entry hazards), how can Rapid Spin not be included? Instead of stop the second, this is becoming "prevent the second."

 

[MetalGearSamus]

I say we should allow Yawn.

It will either force the opponent to switch (preventing it from putting down spikes, etc.), which would pair up nicely with Pursuit, or put them to sleep, which stops them from doing anything at all. And because it does not work instantaneously, it should not overpower CAP 9.

 

[FlareBlitz]

Anachronism, I already explained why your objections are unfounded.
Your claim is that giving CAP9 Rapid Spin will destroy Stall. However, you don't say why this would actually be a bad thing; it's simply a metagame shift. One of our objectives in creating a Stop the Secondary CAP is to learn how that would affect the metagame. What's the point in even making the CAP if we neuter it to the point where the metagame is pretty much the same with or without it?

 

[ReysonTheNoble]

Since when you need Trick to be a viable Choice user? Maybe I lost something, but Tyranitar, Metagross and Scizor are all great Choice users even without Trick (Ok, Metagross has it but almost no one uses Trick on a CB Metagross - and it was a very viable moveset even in D/P where it didn't have Trick). I fail to see why Trick would be so vital to CAP9's strategy when you already have a STAB Pursuit to boot. We really want to give CAP9 another chance to ruin it's only viable checks (like Skarmory and Hippowdon)?

I see. But with Trick, it will only have 3 moves left, leaving it wide open to whatever checks/counters aren't demolished by that missing move. Also, what good is Pursuit when you're stuck using it and Lucario comes in to SD and sweep? I saw an argument that Colossoil with +1 +1 Attack and speed from Guts and a Scarf would be great, but whan you lock yourself into one move while taking 12.5% damage each turn, your opponent can easily switch in a resistant/immune pokemon and you've effectively given a free switch AND lost some of your health. Trick should be Allowed, as it really doesn't go against the concept if it keeps trick itself from ruining it.

 

[bgg1996]

I see. But with Trick, it will only have 3 moves left, leaving it wide open to whatever checks/counters aren't demolished by that missing move. Also, what good is Pursuit when you're stuck using it and Lucario comes in to SD and sweep? I saw an argument that Colossoil with +1 +1 Attack and speed from Guts and a Scarf would be great, but whan you lock yourself into one move while taking 12.5% damage each turn, your opponent can easily switch in a resistant/immune pokemon and you've effectively given a free switch AND lost some of your health. Trick should be Allowed, as it really doesn't go against the concept if it keeps trick itself from ruining it.

Wouldn't a concept that tries to delete/lower usage of secondary moves from the metagame (at least that's my take on the concept) that uses a secondary move itself be kinda against the concept?

 

[Illithian]

Wouldn't a concept that tries to delete/lower usage of secondary moves from the metagame (at least that's my take on the concept) that uses a secondary move itself be kinda against the concept?

The point is to counter users of secondary moves and the secondary moves themselves. If secondary moves are removed from the metagame (which they won't be) then thats a side effect of this cap's existence. If Colossoil can effectively use a move to accomplish its concept, then it doesn't matter if its a secondary move, be it Trick or anything else.

 

[Admiral_Stalfos19]

Wouldn't a concept that tries to delete/lower usage of secondary moves from the metagame (at least that's my take on the concept) that uses a secondary move itself be kinda against the concept?

Well, that depends on the secondary move itself, 'cause sometimes you have to fight fire w/ fire. Glare, for example, 'causes Paralysis, which makes it a definite secondary move, but Paralysis has a chance to stop the Pokemon from acting, which in turn stops them from using their own secondary moves in the first place. Toxic, on the other hand, doesn't help remove/lower secondary moves whatsoever.

 

[Walvren]

Is it just me, or are people losing sight of the original concept? This is supposed to stop the second. In order to stop the second (including entry hazards), how can Rapid Spin not be included? Instead of stop the second, this is becoming "prevent the second."

What's wrong with prevention? Stopping the secondary can be achieved in many ways, and for now, we're trying to find nonattacking moves to assist. Nobody truly defined what "stop" meant but anything that discourages the use of secondary moves works fine. With that in mind, everyone should be a little more open when considering moves.

Encore looks interesting, but it can be taken advantage of in blatantly non-stopping-the-secondary and overpowered ways.

Rapid Spin I thought would be a given for CAP9. It doesn't make sense why anyone would oppose it...

Knock Off, I think is just for Stall breaking, but doesn't directly help with stopping the secondary. Sure, you can "stop" the secondary by ruining the user's strategy, but the threat's still there.

Wouldn't a concept that tries to delete/lower usage of secondary moves from the metagame (at least that's my take on the concept) that uses a secondary move itself be kinda against the concept?

Not at all. If CAP9 uses secondary moves to stop other users of secondary moves (by using Encore for example), it won't be able to stop other pokemon effectively with them. Also, if we use CAP9 to stop the secondary and the opponent was CAP9, CAP9 automatically accomplishes its goal. They pretty much have to attack each other because using a secondary would be a waste (survival-wise) of a move.

 

[Raikizen]

Fake Out looks to be pretty useful on Guts sets for picking off weakened foes and for doing quick in-and-out damage (max+ calcs):
0/0 Infernape: 91 - 108 (31.06% - 36.86%) --> Sucker Punch will actually finish it off w/ SR damage
0/0 Salamence: 83 - 98 (25.08% - 29.61%) --> also finished off w/ SP, regardless of SR; same result with neutral Atk nature
0/252 Calm Blissey: 136 - 161 (20.89% - 24.73%)
4/0 Starmie: 88 - 104 (33.59% - 39.69%)
0/4 Lucario: 69 - 81 (24.56% - 28.83%)
4/0 Roserade: 112 - 132 (42.75% - 50.38%)
0/0 Colossoil: 90 - 107 (22.11% - 26.29%)
104/252 Impish Colossoil: 62 - 73 (14.32% - 16.86%)

Wow. Fake out sure is overpowered. It deals a reasonable amount of damage to some of the weakest defensively oriented Pokemon in the tier. None of those Pokemon can even come close to being checks or counters for Mr. Blubbers, so I don't see why those stat calculations should mean anything about disallowing Fake Out. How much does it do to a fully defensive Hippowdon? Skarmory? Vaporeon? Suicune? My point was, and still is, that: Fake Out won't be useful on Mr. Blubbers except for tiny damage and the flinch, and would be a wasted moveslot to begin with. With it having 4mss out the ass already, I don't see where anyone would be trying to fit in Fake Out.

I don't know why but every time I see this "____ it goes against the concept of CAP__" statement used as a basics for any argument it make me think of the "____ can't use this move because it doesn't have ____" flavor argument, which was deemed unacceptable in the CAP Process.

I can assure you that my arguement for disallowing Toxic had nothing to do with flavor arguements. I can see it using Toxic. A big ball of poisoned saliva coming from it's mouth? Easy to picture. I, however, see Tennisace's point that Toxic will almost never be used and will most likely be a subpar choice at best on Mr. Blubbers. So, I suppose allow.

What's wrong with prevention? Stopping the secondary can be achieved in many ways, and for now, we're trying to find nonattacking moves to assist. Nobody truly defined what "stop" meant but anything that discourages the use of secondary moves works fine. With that in mind, everyone should be a little more open when considering moves.

I'm agreeing with this, seeing as "Stop" was an ambiguous term from the start. No one directly stated exactly what "Stop the Secondary" meant, and this whole CAP we have all been battling it out for our varied definitions of the term. Same holds true here. Everyone is going to have a different take on what exactly it means, and that just adds variety to the rest of the CAP process.

Encore looks interesting, but it can be taken advantage of in blatantly non-stopping-the-secondary and overpowered ways.

I don't think it will be overpowered at all, so I say allow. Encore is a useful move, and it definitely makes the opponent think twice about using the secondary. Unless someone can give me verifiable proof that Encore would be broken, like Swords Dance, then I see no reason why this move should not be included.

Rapid Spin I thought would be a given for CAP9. It doesn't make sense why anyone would oppose it...

I've been basing everything I've done since the first typing poll on the concept that this thing will get Rapid Spin. There are even scenario's where it will make itself more vulnerable by using Rapid Spin. Salamence will oh so enjoy coming in on that.

Knock Off, I think is just for Stall breaking, but doesn't directly help with stopping the secondary. Sure, you can "stop" the secondary by ruining the user's strategy, but the threat's still there.

Again, I don't see why this shouldn't be included. It will almost never see play, will mostly be useless when it does (I mean, he already stops most pokemon that would enjoy their item, even more so if he gets Trick), and won't deal any significant damage even with STAB.

Not at all. If CAP9 uses secondary moves to stop other users of secondary moves (by using Encore for example), it won't be able to stop other pokemon effectively with them. Also, if we use CAP9 to stop the secondary and the opponent was CAP9, CAP9 automatically accomplishes its goal. They pretty much have to attack each other because using a secondary would be a waste (survival-wise) of a move.

This is why I don't think CAP9 should have many secondary moves itself, if at all. My original scenario stills stands. Why would CAP9 even want to have secondary moves after it is created? Oh, it has toxic? Someone wants to use it? Wait, they switched in their CAP9 and now you are poisoned instead. It seems rather redundant to give it any moves that it will just backfire on itself. Then again, those are all arguments for allowing moves since they aren't broken and serve no real purpose competitively.

 

[Vividsketch]

I think it has been meantioned at least once before already, but not an any great detail. So I'd like to propose discussion again for CURSE.

Bulk Up has already been banished to dissallowed (and rightfully so) along with the likes of Howl/Meditaite/Sharpen. The speed drop of Curse, how ever, I do think makes it manageble rather than broken.

Obviously the idea of an Attack +1 with Gut activated is dawnting in it's self. But to put it into perspective, it's really no worse that any other 120+ base attack pokemon after a Swords Dance (of which there are a few, and all much faster). Still scary as hell though. But by the same token the loss in speed will open the door to several more checks/counters. It's not going to go a sweeping spree.

5 common weaknesses, with a greater bias to the special side of the spectrum in general, taking it down before it can cause much damage isn't going to be that hard to manage. Especially when you take into considaration Burn/Poison eating away at it's staying power, even a few previously slower walls might be able to stall it out.

One concern migth be Sucker Punch on the same set, over riding the speed. But anythign the resists Dark should still not have too much trouble doing it job. Beside Sucker Punch machnics can of course be abbuse by the oppenent as well.


Also, I don't think any one as made much mention of Reflect or Light Screen. Where does the comminuty sit with this??


To address the current Controversial List:

Moonlight/Morning Sun - 8 PP and Sandstorm/Hail up as often as they are. These will be as tame as they usually are. Even the defensive behomoth Cresselia can't make the most of them. - Allowed

Toxic - Regigigis is a perfect example Game Freak breaking their own rules or trends in regards to what TM's pokemon 'must' or generally learn. So why can't we? Especially when you considare it our project, not Game Freaks. For the simple purpose that it disrupts the concept of CAP9 - Disallowed

Heal Bell - There are already stable Clerics in Celebi, Blissey, and now probably Vaporeon as well. But Clerics in have proven to be underwhelming and obsolete by enlarge. So there is no notion of brokeness. But Heal Bell does directly contribute conceptually in the fight against the use or success of seconday moves and effect. So it really should be - Allowed

Fake Out - This one is tough. In terms of 'Stopping the secondary' it's really only usefull against Stealth Rock leads. Out side of that it performs, particularly with Guts activation, as a great hit and run tool. It'll probable help wear shit down really rather quickly. Useful? Indeed. Broken? I personally don't think so. But CAP9 starts perforing a very different job than what is was suppposed to be designed for. So Fake out is conceptually very uncohesive. Begrudgingly - Disallowed

Rock Polish - It's all been said already. Guts activation, broad coverage move pool (most likely) and the ability to outspeed even Scarved pokemon, with out maxing out EV investment. That's alot to condend with. Prehaps too much. And again this scream sweeper, not secondary stopper. - Disallowed

Roar - Phazes out stat uppers and clears out Substitutes. Secondary effects or moves in a fasion. And it's a remedy for having failed where taunt should have succeeded in the first place. Only real negative is that it also helps rack up entry hazard damage (negative from the concepts point of view). But it's your opponents job to keep their side of the field clear of hazards. Not yours. They have just as much access to CAP9 as you do after all, hehe... - Allowed

Encore - Bulking and fast (base 95 isn't slow, come on) means CAP9 is going to get the jump on alot slower mons with Encore. Along side 'Auto Magic Coat' it'll come in an punish the living daylights out of them for 'using the secondary' with Encore. It's going to force switches and obvious switches at that. Allowing for some real set up bait situations. It seems to me that there is going to be an amazing synegy bewteen 'AMC' and Encore. Just the idea of Encore paired with 'AMC' might be enough to discourage certian users even attempting to deploy a secondary attack. Mission accomplished?? Maybe too well??... I actually think Encore still needs - Further Discussion

 

[Korski]

Originally Posted by Fat Raiziken

Originally Posted by Fat admiral_korski
Fake Out looks to be pretty useful on Guts sets for picking off weakened foes and for doing quick in-and-out damage (max+ calcs):
0/0 Infernape: 91 - 108 (31.06% - 36.86%) --> Sucker Punch will actually finish it off w/ SR damage
0/0 Salamence: 83 - 98 (25.08% - 29.61%) --> also finished off w/ SP, regardless of SR; same result with neutral Atk nature
0/252 Calm Blissey: 136 - 161 (20.89% - 24.73%)
4/0 Starmie: 88 - 104 (33.59% - 39.69%)
0/4 Lucario: 69 - 81 (24.56% - 28.83%)
4/0 Roserade: 112 - 132 (42.75% - 50.38%)
0/0 Colossoil: 90 - 107 (22.11% - 26.29%)
104/252 Impish Colossoil: 62 - 73 (14.32% - 16.86%)

Wow. Fake out sure is overpowered. It deals a reasonable amount of damage to some of the weakest defensively oriented Pokemon in the tier. None of those Pokemon can even come close to being checks or counters for Mr. Blubbers, so I don't see why those stat calculations should mean anything about disallowing Fake Out. How much does it do to a fully defensive Hippowdon? Skarmory? Vaporeon? Suicune? My point was, and still is, that: Fake Out won't be useful on Mr. Blubbers except for tiny damage and the flinch, and would be a wasted moveslot to begin with. With it having 4mss out the ass already, I don't see where anyone would be trying to fit in Fake Out.

Don't put words in my mouth regarding this move. I didn't say I was for or against Fake Out. I just wanted to show that Guts Colossoil could beat DDMence, MixMence, and MixApe one-on-one, as well as come in and pick off weakened LO abusers like Starmie and Lucario who could otherwise destroy whole teams. The fact that, without Fake Out, Colossoil couldn't do much of that is worth discussion, as obviously Skarmory, Hippowdon, Vaporeon, and Suicune, being defensive pokemon, don't fear the direct damage of a weak, neutral priority move like Fake Out very much. Take a look here, though: max+ Guts Fake Out does 45 - 54 (11.14% - 13.37%) damage to 252/252 Bold Suicune, turning Earthquake into a 2HKO instead of a 3HKO in Sand. It does 68 - 81 (15.18% - 18.08%) to 188/252 Bold Vaporeon, guaranteeing the 2HKO with Earthquake regardless of Sand. It does 48 - 57 (11.43% - 13.57%) to standard Hippowdon, which turns Aqua Tail into a 2HKO from a 3HKO. And it does 20 - 24 (5.99% - 7.19%) damage to Skarmory which is laughable and useless (note: all these targets are assumed to be at max health and running Leftovers when I do the math for these KOs. I didn't include SR damage, though, as it may not be around as much with as good a Spinner as Colossoil is turning out to be, and I didn't really need it to prove my point).

So there you have it. Guts Colossoil would really love to have Fake Out instead of having to risk being attacked on that third turn. Being able to 2HKO some of the best defensive pokemon in the game with a Fake Out boost, in my opinion, would be a very appealing aspect to running Fake Out on a Guts set. It's hardly a wasted moveslot if it can means you can defeat Salamence and Suicune one-on-one with the same moveset. And, lest we forget, it's great for picking off worn-out foes at the end of a match with its reliable priority. Think 75 - 89 (22.52% - 26.73%) to Defensive CM Latias, even. That's free damage, dude, which is never overlooked on offensive pokemon. I'm not arguing for or against Fake Out here, just trying to frame the debate around actual game mechanics instead of grab-bag theorymon.

Finally, the idea that Starmie, DD/Mix Salamence, and Infernape aren't good checks to Colossoil is complete garbage. Roserade and Jolly Lucario move into that category when they realize you're running Adamant, and the defensive pokemon you mentioned move into that category when they realize you're running Jolly. I could have used any pokemon for those calcs, but I used those to show how Colossoil could switch in after a KO or DD or whatever and take those pokes down, or how much damage it could do regarding low-health opponents that are going down in flames. Don't tell me Fake Out is useless; the calcs tell a completely different story.

 

[Stagnant]

"No Guts sweeper has a speed boosting move, for good reason. Imagine Heracross, with better typeing, and bulk, but with +2 Speed. No, just no."

Swellow has agility...

 

[Ritsi_Time]

Swellow's physical movepool isn't so great, and a max attack Swellow "only" reaches 442 attack after a Guts boost. Max attack Colossoil reaches 567(?) attack, which is ~28% stronger.

 

[TheGreatestT]

I don't think this has been brought up, sorry if it has, but what about Haze and more so Mist. I know it is probably a gimmick, but it does do what this CAP is supposed to do.

 

[Raikizen]

Don't put words in my mouth regarding this move. I didn't say I was for or against Fake Out.

Don't put words in my mouth. I simply used your calculations to back up my point. No where in the entirity of my post did I once say that you were for, or against, fake out. Nor did I state anything against you involving the move.

And the reason I don't think Fake Out is broken is because look at what you have to invest just to assure it does that damage and can bring about those 2HKO's. By focusing on one side of things, you lose the benefit of the other side: Mainly, if CAP9 goes all out on offense, it is going to lose defense. Did you take into consideration any of the other factors other than just CAP9 damaging them? Hippowdon takes a horrendous amount from Aqua Tail (Which you lose coverage if you add that in with Earthquake and Dark STAB), so that is a valid point. However, Vaporeon can do a good amount of damage in return with Surf, crippling if it hasn't taken an prior damage. With reference to Suicune, I don't even see how that is a point. The only Suicune you are going to face with those stats are Crocune sets, which have rest. A 2HKO after Fake Out means little when they can just Rest and turn it back into a 3HKO, then proceed to CM up barring a crit or hit you back with a powerful surf. Theorymon is all fine and well, but there are other factors than just "X deals Y amount of damage to Z pokemon, making it a _HKO."

That is all assuming guts in the first place. The only way to surefire guarantee that you get statused would be through a Flame Orb or Toxic Orb, making sure you take residual damage, plus whatever they throw at you. My whole point was, and still is: Fake Out is nice. It's a move that could possibly see some use. It is not broken in my eyes, however, and thus that makes it Allowed. Unless you plan on sacrificing versatility and usefullness just so it can pick a few weakened sweepers off with Fake Out, which I would add it can already do with Sucker Punch.

 

[Dark Kaiser]

I am currently for every thing in the controversial, except Rock Polish, it makes way too much a sweeper and doesn't do anything to stop the secondary.
Moonlight/Morning Sun: With all the weather conditions flying around more often then not this move will be that much of a threat. It all so will be totally useless on an entire style of play. It becomes useless on a sandstorm team, and one of its counters Hippowdon activates it the turn it comes in.
Toxic: Every fully evolved pokemon in the game gets this move, so should Colossoil. It probably won't even see that much use in reality.
Heal Bell: His job is to stop the secondary. That is what this does for him.
Fake Out: It'll really help to make it a usable lead, and does well to stop the secondary. Plus it is takes up another move and it can only be on the turn it switch's in.
Roar: It gives him a way to beat stat uppers that could pose a huge threat to him.
Encore: It can force opponents to keep using secondary moves like thunder wave or any thing else like for that matter even after they don't do any thing. So I hope that you find all the comments insightful, and worth thinking about.