Quick question, but are we making 3 ablilities (2 Normal+1DW) or just 2?
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CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5a - (Ability Discussion)
- Thread starter reachzero
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This is extremely easy. These defenses alone aren't going to change momentum against most of the metagame, so we need Intimidate. Nothing changes momentum quicker than switching in and automatically lowering offense.
Along the same lines, Daunt. Do we want to switch in on Draco Meteor or not? That is the question. Answer: you won't with base base 105 HP and base 80 Sp. Def. Since we want to make this the ultimate momentum-changer, we should keep special attackers in mind too, even if Gamefreak hasn't had the balls to do it.
If you can't think of better momentum-changers than the above, consider your vote already cast.
Along the same lines, Daunt. Do we want to switch in on Draco Meteor or not? That is the question. Answer: you won't with base base 105 HP and base 80 Sp. Def. Since we want to make this the ultimate momentum-changer, we should keep special attackers in mind too, even if Gamefreak hasn't had the balls to do it.
If you can't think of better momentum-changers than the above, consider your vote already cast.
I should point out that due to technical difficulties, we can't have custom abilities or custom moves for the forseeable future.
Sorry about that.
SJCrew, I need to strongly disagree with your post. Like Woodsy said, no custom abilities so we can't do anything about pokemon attacking from the special side of the spectrum. So that's already 1 group of pokemon that Intimidate doesn't address.
And then there are all the pokemon that rely on their status and support moves to be OU. Intimidate doesn't concern them one bit, either. These pokemon are far worse crippled by Magic Mirror.
And then there are abilities like Filter and Solid Rock, that may not be as effective as Intimidate for Physical pokemon, however, they greatly help soften the blows from special attackers, something that Intimidate fails to do. And frankly the supereffective attacks from the special side are most likely his biggest worries anyway.
And for just about any set-up pokemon, Prankster + Encore is pretty much the bane of their existance. The moment they switch in, you can switch in CAP1, which is then either taking an unboosted move (and these are often not stellar on pokemon that rely on setting up their offenses, since they highly invest in bulk EV's), or you switch it in to any setup move, that you can proceed to Encore on the next turn, forcing them out.
I agree that Intimidate is a fine ability for this CAP, but it's most certainly not the end of the world if it isn't chosen on any ability slot, so to speak. There are plenty of pokemon that are barely affected or even completely unaffected by having their atk stat dropped.
So your claim that everyone should vote for Intimidate is rather incorrect. Intimidate is an ability that is only capable of momentum-shifting versus the right opponent and thus situational. Just like all the abilities I listed.
The opponents we want to deal with most should be reflected in the abilities we chose.
I for one think that abilties beside Intimidate actually compliment CAP1 more, because through typing and stats, he is already rather bulky on the physical side, and although help is nice, CAP1 struggles more against support mons that can proceed to throw random statuses at him or other crippling moves, or against special attacking pokemon.
And then there are all the pokemon that rely on their status and support moves to be OU. Intimidate doesn't concern them one bit, either. These pokemon are far worse crippled by Magic Mirror.
And then there are abilities like Filter and Solid Rock, that may not be as effective as Intimidate for Physical pokemon, however, they greatly help soften the blows from special attackers, something that Intimidate fails to do. And frankly the supereffective attacks from the special side are most likely his biggest worries anyway.
And for just about any set-up pokemon, Prankster + Encore is pretty much the bane of their existance. The moment they switch in, you can switch in CAP1, which is then either taking an unboosted move (and these are often not stellar on pokemon that rely on setting up their offenses, since they highly invest in bulk EV's), or you switch it in to any setup move, that you can proceed to Encore on the next turn, forcing them out.
I agree that Intimidate is a fine ability for this CAP, but it's most certainly not the end of the world if it isn't chosen on any ability slot, so to speak. There are plenty of pokemon that are barely affected or even completely unaffected by having their atk stat dropped.
So your claim that everyone should vote for Intimidate is rather incorrect. Intimidate is an ability that is only capable of momentum-shifting versus the right opponent and thus situational. Just like all the abilities I listed.
The opponents we want to deal with most should be reflected in the abilities we chose.
I for one think that abilties beside Intimidate actually compliment CAP1 more, because through typing and stats, he is already rather bulky on the physical side, and although help is nice, CAP1 struggles more against support mons that can proceed to throw random statuses at him or other crippling moves, or against special attacking pokemon.
So far, I have the following thoughts on abilities based on discussion in this thread mixed with my own personal brand of insight. I'll discuss my favorite abilities, in order, for this CAP, and then address some other seemingly popular abilities that I feel do not work for this concept quite as well as some people are advertising. If I don't mention an ability, that means I don't think it would really be a good choice, but it isn't getting enough support or justification to be seriously considered anyway.
Abilities that would be excellent for CAP1
Intimidate
Intimidate is excellent for many reasons. Many people seem to think that it's useful just because it lets CAP1 come in more easily on numerous Pokemon, but that's not necessarily the case. Intimidate immediately seizes momentum from the opposing player, but then leads into CAP1's capitalization of that fact afterward. That it's an immediate and tangible effect on switch-in is key here, and is one of the primary reasons it's such a great ability for CAP1. It comes in and does its work, then abuses it. That's what CAP1 should be doing.
Magic Bounce
This is an incredibly powerful ability, and would have ramifications on the movepool and other aspects of the CAP, but is superbly attuned to CAP1's concept. No one with remote intelligence will repeatedly use support moves in the face of a Magic Bounce Pokemon, so the real value of Magic Bounce is when used in the same way as Intimidate—on switch-in. CAP1 can switch into predicted status moves, predicted entry hazards, predicted Taunt, and countless other things and reflect it back, immediately seizing momentum from the opponent at any stage of a match. The fact that it is immediately valuable when switching in and then slightly less valuable while in is good for CAP1, though the effective status immunity is a huge boon to CAP1 in general (since its also immune to Toxic Spikes).
Prankster
This is a powerful ability, but at the same time is really limited in its value by movepool. We can easily and without harm to CAP1 keep it in check and not overwhelming or broken, so I'm not worried about that. What Prankster brings to the table for CAP1, though, is a lot of good. While unlike Magic Bounce and Intimidate in that it doesn't activate when you switch CAP1 in, it acts as a real encouraging force to use moves like Toxic and Substitute to great effect. It augments the strategies that CAP1 will be using to whittle down enemies and steal back momentum from the opponent, and would be a strong choice for CAP1 to go with on pretty much any set.
Abilities I don't think are great for CAP1
Regenerator
This ability is a phenomenal ability, don't get me wrong, and it also helps keep CAP1 alive for a lot longer, but I don't think that's really in-line with the concept and what CAP1 needs. Having great longevity in battles isn't really a strong momentum grabbing mechanism, it's just a way to make the Pokemon live for a longer time. We want CAP1 to come out onto the field, gain momentum, and then do with it what the player needs. Regenerator only helps with momentum once you switch out, which, while cool, really isn't doing what we want.
Infiltrator
CAP1 really doesn't gain anything by having Infiltrator except the ability to hit Pokemon that still succeed at setting up and Baton Passing their boosts out to immediate threats. I'm not actually sure why this was suggested at all, because it really isn't helping CAP1 accomplish its goals, and is sort of just there.
Cursed Body
While this is really applicable to a lot of cool moves, CAP1 is going to immediately force out pretty much every Pokemon who hits it and risks activating Cursed Body. All Fighting-types will flee from CAP1's Flying-type STAB, and that's where most contact moves are coming from. Furthermore, Stone Edge and Earthquake, two popular moves CAP1 may be facing down, will never proc Cursed Body. Aside from stray Bullet Punches from Scizor or assorted attacks like Dragon Claw or Outrage, Cursed Body really isn't doing CAP1 a lot of good. Furthermore, while 30% chance to disable is good, it's not reliable, and something CAP1 needs from its ability is reliability in order to consistently be able to snag momentum at any stage of a match.
Unaware
Unaware is an ability that I really don't think fits CAP1's style at all. Against strong attackers that run Choice Band or Choice Specs to hit switch-ins hard, it affords no protection, against most things setting up Swords Dance, I'd rather Intimidate, and against most things setting up Calm Mind, I'll switch out due to type disadvantage anyway. Furthermore, it really isn't helping much, since almost all of the things that will setup against CAP1 have a type advantage, and all of the things CAP1 is safely switching into anyway are at a type disadvantage. Unaware really isn't doing much for us here.
Abilities that would be excellent for CAP1
Intimidate
Intimidate is excellent for many reasons. Many people seem to think that it's useful just because it lets CAP1 come in more easily on numerous Pokemon, but that's not necessarily the case. Intimidate immediately seizes momentum from the opposing player, but then leads into CAP1's capitalization of that fact afterward. That it's an immediate and tangible effect on switch-in is key here, and is one of the primary reasons it's such a great ability for CAP1. It comes in and does its work, then abuses it. That's what CAP1 should be doing.
Magic Bounce
This is an incredibly powerful ability, and would have ramifications on the movepool and other aspects of the CAP, but is superbly attuned to CAP1's concept. No one with remote intelligence will repeatedly use support moves in the face of a Magic Bounce Pokemon, so the real value of Magic Bounce is when used in the same way as Intimidate—on switch-in. CAP1 can switch into predicted status moves, predicted entry hazards, predicted Taunt, and countless other things and reflect it back, immediately seizing momentum from the opponent at any stage of a match. The fact that it is immediately valuable when switching in and then slightly less valuable while in is good for CAP1, though the effective status immunity is a huge boon to CAP1 in general (since its also immune to Toxic Spikes).
Prankster
This is a powerful ability, but at the same time is really limited in its value by movepool. We can easily and without harm to CAP1 keep it in check and not overwhelming or broken, so I'm not worried about that. What Prankster brings to the table for CAP1, though, is a lot of good. While unlike Magic Bounce and Intimidate in that it doesn't activate when you switch CAP1 in, it acts as a real encouraging force to use moves like Toxic and Substitute to great effect. It augments the strategies that CAP1 will be using to whittle down enemies and steal back momentum from the opponent, and would be a strong choice for CAP1 to go with on pretty much any set.
Abilities I don't think are great for CAP1
Regenerator
This ability is a phenomenal ability, don't get me wrong, and it also helps keep CAP1 alive for a lot longer, but I don't think that's really in-line with the concept and what CAP1 needs. Having great longevity in battles isn't really a strong momentum grabbing mechanism, it's just a way to make the Pokemon live for a longer time. We want CAP1 to come out onto the field, gain momentum, and then do with it what the player needs. Regenerator only helps with momentum once you switch out, which, while cool, really isn't doing what we want.
Infiltrator
CAP1 really doesn't gain anything by having Infiltrator except the ability to hit Pokemon that still succeed at setting up and Baton Passing their boosts out to immediate threats. I'm not actually sure why this was suggested at all, because it really isn't helping CAP1 accomplish its goals, and is sort of just there.
Cursed Body
While this is really applicable to a lot of cool moves, CAP1 is going to immediately force out pretty much every Pokemon who hits it and risks activating Cursed Body. All Fighting-types will flee from CAP1's Flying-type STAB, and that's where most contact moves are coming from. Furthermore, Stone Edge and Earthquake, two popular moves CAP1 may be facing down, will never proc Cursed Body. Aside from stray Bullet Punches from Scizor or assorted attacks like Dragon Claw or Outrage, Cursed Body really isn't doing CAP1 a lot of good. Furthermore, while 30% chance to disable is good, it's not reliable, and something CAP1 needs from its ability is reliability in order to consistently be able to snag momentum at any stage of a match.
Unaware
Unaware is an ability that I really don't think fits CAP1's style at all. Against strong attackers that run Choice Band or Choice Specs to hit switch-ins hard, it affords no protection, against most things setting up Swords Dance, I'd rather Intimidate, and against most things setting up Calm Mind, I'll switch out due to type disadvantage anyway. Furthermore, it really isn't helping much, since almost all of the things that will setup against CAP1 have a type advantage, and all of the things CAP1 is safely switching into anyway are at a type disadvantage. Unaware really isn't doing much for us here.
I was thinking about flavour abilities and felt that depending on the art design the following abilities could have a descent competive niche for our cap, whilst at the same time being overall inferior to the likely abilities chosen. (I have a very confusing example so bare with it :D)
Filter/Solid Rock ; the flying fighting type grants us four weaknesses those being flying, psychic, ice, and electric. with filter/Solid Rock as our ability we only take 1.5 times super effective damage from these attacks, this allows us to adress special attackers who might expect (hypothetically) an intimidate or an unknown ability which is not obvious.
this is just a random made up example assuming our usuall ability was unaware.
turn 1 we switch in on a boosting sweeper and our opponent realises his boosts mean nothing.
Turn 2 he switches to a special sweeper as we set up defensively (spikes, toxic spikes, stealth rock, rapid spin, screens).
Turn 3 he attacks and we "suprisingly" survive, we then attack for the KO
Turn 4 the opponent switches in a revenge killer and attacks, as we switch to a wall to tank the hit.
now we are one pokemon up and have a defensive advantage, but most importantly Momentum is in our hands and we ave control over the next few turns
^ that example assumes that we give our cap a defensively inclined momnetum moveset.
Anyway I believe those abilitys whilst not nesscsarily momentum grabbing by themselves will allow our cap a good chance to build momentum against specially offensive threats not expecting that ability.
I feel an ability like this would have a niche roll on the cap and see use, plus overall it adds to our momentum grabbing caps resume as it allows us to liably beat pokemon like Gengar and virizon one on one.
E: bare with the spelling, no spell check sorry. Also my grammer is not the best sorry.
Filter/Solid Rock ; the flying fighting type grants us four weaknesses those being flying, psychic, ice, and electric. with filter/Solid Rock as our ability we only take 1.5 times super effective damage from these attacks, this allows us to adress special attackers who might expect (hypothetically) an intimidate or an unknown ability which is not obvious.
this is just a random made up example assuming our usuall ability was unaware.
turn 1 we switch in on a boosting sweeper and our opponent realises his boosts mean nothing.
Turn 2 he switches to a special sweeper as we set up defensively (spikes, toxic spikes, stealth rock, rapid spin, screens).
Turn 3 he attacks and we "suprisingly" survive, we then attack for the KO
Turn 4 the opponent switches in a revenge killer and attacks, as we switch to a wall to tank the hit.
now we are one pokemon up and have a defensive advantage, but most importantly Momentum is in our hands and we ave control over the next few turns
^ that example assumes that we give our cap a defensively inclined momnetum moveset.
Anyway I believe those abilitys whilst not nesscsarily momentum grabbing by themselves will allow our cap a good chance to build momentum against specially offensive threats not expecting that ability.
I feel an ability like this would have a niche roll on the cap and see use, plus overall it adds to our momentum grabbing caps resume as it allows us to liably beat pokemon like Gengar and virizon one on one.
E: bare with the spelling, no spell check sorry. Also my grammer is not the best sorry.
For a CAP that can really go in any direction on abilities and could make use of having more than one really useful ability, I feel that talking about flavor abilities just now is a little early. I'd rather see a CAP like this end up with all the 3 preferred abilities R_D mentioned, instead of 1 favor ability, because he could really just use all of them.
O, and on that notice, R_D or Reach, could you reply on Garchompmasters question about whether or not we are going to use 2 or 3 abilities from now on?
Knowing in advance whether or not there will be 2 or 3 abilities is likely to affect people's choices on what to vote. (I.e. If there are 2 abilities, I may vote for x, while I may vote for Y if we are ending up with 3 abilities.)
O, and on that notice, R_D or Reach, could you reply on Garchompmasters question about whether or not we are going to use 2 or 3 abilities from now on?
Knowing in advance whether or not there will be 2 or 3 abilities is likely to affect people's choices on what to vote. (I.e. If there are 2 abilities, I may vote for x, while I may vote for Y if we are ending up with 3 abilities.)
I find it strange that we just voted on a stat spread and now people are talking about intimidate "because the defenses aren't good enough". Considering that his weaknesses are pretty rare physical types (flying is about evenly distributed I think), I'm worried that there won't be many situations where a physical attacker switches in and forces you out (I.e. Situations where you face a physical attacker not under the effects of intimidate). As such I fear the physical wallishness would go too far beyond what we need for this concept.
Well, I believe that Intimidate and Unaware were good choices, as they both wreck the opponent's momentum. Now I'm going out on a wire here, but what about Flare Boost? When running with alot of momentum, burns often cripple a physical sweeper. If you predict this, you can switch in CAP 1 with flare boost, take the burn and get extra special attack. Just an idea for extra momentum.
In regards to the previous post, at least make it Lightningrod then. This isn't a physical sweeper anyway, so a burn isn't that big of a deal, where as electric attacks are actually a weakness to CAP1, and both net a S.ATK boost.
Although any ability that boosts CAP1 S.ATK from the get go should probably not even be discussed, because that would give CAP1 way too much offensive prowess imo.
Although any ability that boosts CAP1 S.ATK from the get go should probably not even be discussed, because that would give CAP1 way too much offensive prowess imo.
Yes, BW CAPs will all have a stage for DW abilities. No Pokemon has to have 3 abilities, though, or even 2 abilities for that matter. There will be available options for NSA (No Secondary Ability) and NDWA (No Dream World Ability) being discussed for the subsequent ability threads. There is, however, a limit of 2 "competitive" abilities for each CAP right now. This is to prevent a CAP from getting too much ability versatility. This means that if the first two abilities for a CAP are competitive, the third ability must be determined by the TL to be non-competitive, or otherwise it will not be allowed on the polls.Yllnath said:
This is unfortunate. My heart was set on this badass combo the second we established our typing, and was only further solidified when we got the stats down. I guess we'll have to get a little more creative if we want to get around those Draco Meteors.
Filter and Solid Rock help Pokemon with terrible weaknesses be not quite so terrible. It worked for Rhyperior's short-lived OU reigh and top-threat UU status, but I can't say it did much for Mr. Mime's ability to take a Bullet Punch. Strong neutral moves are still going to work this guy over, especially special attacks, and weakness-reducing abilities won't change that.
Even if Rhyperior has Solid Rock, I wouldn't advise you switching into a STAB Earthquake, Surf, or Close Combat, unless you want to show off how badass he is by surviving the first hit and promptly dying to the second. Taking slightly less damage from a weakness makes it more annoying to take down once it's in, but it doesn't actually do anything about the momentum you need to be prepared to steal coming in.
The ironic thing about Magic Bounce (we have to get used to these English names, unfortunately) is that it has a problem similar to the one you're suggesting Intimidate has: it only handles supporters. Supporters, while influential, are only side shows for the meat and potatoes of the team. Once the strong offensive Pokemon go to work, I just don't see this CAP doing much of anything about it. Intimidate turns all of those +2s into +1s and make non-boosted attacks elementary to switch into.
Turning the tables against offensive Pokemon should be top priority at the moment because they're on every team, and the tricks of a supporter pale in comparison to the ability to remove team members altogether. If all this CAP is going to do is choke in the face of something to designed to stop, then it's just not worth a spot on my team, or any other team for that matter.
I'm not sure which planet you planet you live on where this is true, but if you can get me a good list of Pokemon to which this applies, I'm sure I can give you an even better list of Pokemon we'd rather be stopping instead.
Being able to switch in safely on almost any physical powerhouse is a boon that requires no explanation, and even now, very few abilities in the game can match, much less surpass that kind of influence. Intimidates covers a far, far greater means of momentum reversal than anything else presented in this thread.
Inn my book, there is no better ability than Unaware.
Most teams in the 5th Generation make use of powerful attackers, who boost their offensive stats. Blaziken, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Virizion, Tornadus, Renkulus, the list goes on and on and on.
While Intimidate is a useful ability and all, CAP1 is not really going to need it with 100/90 defenses, and a good type for physical defense. Instead, what it should be more worried about, is taking attacks from BOOSTED foes. Unaware prevents this issue, and, as an added bonus, also ignores defensive stat chages and those on the special side.
Unaware also is an excellent fail-safe. It will remove any temptation to make this pokemon a boosting sweeper in it's own right, as some people will inevitably try and do in the movepool section. Unaware renders your own boosts useless as well.
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Intimidate, IMO, is outclassed for this concept by Unaware. We actually have special threats this gen, people. [That can work around Blissey too!]
In addittion, with a good physical defense type, and 100/90 defenses, Intimidate could prove overkill, making CAP1 almost as much of a middle finger to physicals as Skarmory is.
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Air Lock is a good alternative to Unaware, and may make for a decent secondary ability. As Unaware cannot remove speed boosts, Air Lock can, delivering a severe nerf to all weathers [Even Hail, Stallrein dosen't like losing his Ice Body healing]. This would allow people to tailor CAP1 to provideing mometum against set-up sweepers, and weather abusers.
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Regeneration looks good on paper. Then you see the 105/90/80 defenses. Slowbro's a pain to take down, and he takes Spikes, SR, and T-Spikes. With the reduced prevelance of Stealth Rock, and the possibility this could get Roost, I say NO to Regeneration. It will be TOO good.
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Magic Guard... are we attempting to make another Renkulus here?
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Tl;DR:
I support Unaware as the Primary Ability
Air Lock would make a good secondary
I do not support:
Intimidate: Outclassed for the concept by Unaware, and risks making another Skarmory
Regeneration: Too good for this pokemon, look at Slowbro.
Magic Guard: This would become Renkulus V2.
Most teams in the 5th Generation make use of powerful attackers, who boost their offensive stats. Blaziken, Excadrill, Conkeldurr, Virizion, Tornadus, Renkulus, the list goes on and on and on.
While Intimidate is a useful ability and all, CAP1 is not really going to need it with 100/90 defenses, and a good type for physical defense. Instead, what it should be more worried about, is taking attacks from BOOSTED foes. Unaware prevents this issue, and, as an added bonus, also ignores defensive stat chages and those on the special side.
Unaware also is an excellent fail-safe. It will remove any temptation to make this pokemon a boosting sweeper in it's own right, as some people will inevitably try and do in the movepool section. Unaware renders your own boosts useless as well.
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Intimidate, IMO, is outclassed for this concept by Unaware. We actually have special threats this gen, people. [That can work around Blissey too!]
In addittion, with a good physical defense type, and 100/90 defenses, Intimidate could prove overkill, making CAP1 almost as much of a middle finger to physicals as Skarmory is.
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Air Lock is a good alternative to Unaware, and may make for a decent secondary ability. As Unaware cannot remove speed boosts, Air Lock can, delivering a severe nerf to all weathers [Even Hail, Stallrein dosen't like losing his Ice Body healing]. This would allow people to tailor CAP1 to provideing mometum against set-up sweepers, and weather abusers.
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Regeneration looks good on paper. Then you see the 105/90/80 defenses. Slowbro's a pain to take down, and he takes Spikes, SR, and T-Spikes. With the reduced prevelance of Stealth Rock, and the possibility this could get Roost, I say NO to Regeneration. It will be TOO good.
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Magic Guard... are we attempting to make another Renkulus here?
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Tl;DR:
I support Unaware as the Primary Ability
Air Lock would make a good secondary
I do not support:
Intimidate: Outclassed for the concept by Unaware, and risks making another Skarmory
Regeneration: Too good for this pokemon, look at Slowbro.
Magic Guard: This would become Renkulus V2.
I support :
Prankster : It's a wonderful ability which fits perfectly with the concept. Moreover, with Prankster, CAP will have a large choice of spreads, which causes unpredictability, which is the best manner to gain momentum. Provokes switches just by threatening with an Encore or a Taunt is just wonderful. Moreover, a priority T-Wave is a must-have. The great point with this ability is, like I said, the unpredictability.
The problem is the ability can be too powerful and can restricts too much our CAP. But it can be very interesting.
Magic Bounce : A bulky Pokemon with great typing which can make your opponent cries just because you switch-in ? Yes sir ! No better way to gain momentum. The best point is that CAP will be immune to status, and I think it's very important to a momentum-gainer. However... Espeon and Xatu are frail, but I fear it can be a little overpowered on a well-rounded Pokemon like CAP.
Air Lock & Unaware : I keep them together because they have the same goal : Stop the opponent's boosts, so they waste turns and you gain momentum. Air Lock can be really great because CAP doesn't fear Chlorophyll users, but I prefer the two above.
What about Download ? Heck, I can seem strange with his pathetic attack, but the goal, here, won't be to do physical damages but outpower physical tanks like Skarmory or Hippodown, which can tank our attacks if SpDef is a little bit invested. Can be funny to surprise a Pokemon which thought he can resist (or make him run).
Prankster : It's a wonderful ability which fits perfectly with the concept. Moreover, with Prankster, CAP will have a large choice of spreads, which causes unpredictability, which is the best manner to gain momentum. Provokes switches just by threatening with an Encore or a Taunt is just wonderful. Moreover, a priority T-Wave is a must-have. The great point with this ability is, like I said, the unpredictability.
The problem is the ability can be too powerful and can restricts too much our CAP. But it can be very interesting.
Magic Bounce : A bulky Pokemon with great typing which can make your opponent cries just because you switch-in ? Yes sir ! No better way to gain momentum. The best point is that CAP will be immune to status, and I think it's very important to a momentum-gainer. However... Espeon and Xatu are frail, but I fear it can be a little overpowered on a well-rounded Pokemon like CAP.
Air Lock & Unaware : I keep them together because they have the same goal : Stop the opponent's boosts, so they waste turns and you gain momentum. Air Lock can be really great because CAP doesn't fear Chlorophyll users, but I prefer the two above.
What about Download ? Heck, I can seem strange with his pathetic attack, but the goal, here, won't be to do physical damages but outpower physical tanks like Skarmory or Hippodown, which can tank our attacks if SpDef is a little bit invested. Can be funny to surprise a Pokemon which thought he can resist (or make him run).
Uh... no.
Unaware resets all boosts to 0. Intimidate can lower a boost to -1 when switching in on something with no Attack boosts. As a result, Intimidate can force switches against many more physical attackers, which is a great boon to momentum. Unaware can take away an opponent's momentum, but it works in a somewhat different way, and I'd say that like Regenerator, it's too good for this CAP. People have pointed out so much about this CAP's stats compare to Slowbro; take a look at how they compare to Quagsire. 105/60/90/115/80/85 compared to 95/85/85/65/65/35?
shed skin I really think it could help CAP1 alot with regaining momentum. It's perfect for a bulky pokemon lik CAP1.
I also suggest a new ability: cloud cover
It unables the opponent's abilty as long as the pokemon is in the battle (kind of like mold breaker but it completely disables the ability (so for example when you send out a tyranitar is doesn't start a sandstorm)).
It really would help alot to regain momentum. 5th gen is really based around abilities so it would have more pokemon CAP1 could counter.
For CAP1 in 4th gne there already was made a new ability, so I tohink it owuld be cool to do the same for CAP1 of 5th gen :)
I also suggest a new ability: cloud cover
It unables the opponent's abilty as long as the pokemon is in the battle (kind of like mold breaker but it completely disables the ability (so for example when you send out a tyranitar is doesn't start a sandstorm)).
It really would help alot to regain momentum. 5th gen is really based around abilities so it would have more pokemon CAP1 could counter.
For CAP1 in 4th gne there already was made a new ability, so I tohink it owuld be cool to do the same for CAP1 of 5th gen :)
I pretty much agree with the entirety of Rising_Dusk's post. Intimidate, Magic Bounce and Prankster are all excellent abilities that work almost perfectly with the concept, and I'd be happy to see any of them on the finished product. The only reservations I have about them are that they are all extremely powerful, and run the danger of overpowering a Pokemon that already has a great typing and impressive stat distribution.
The only other ability I want to mention is Compoundeyes, which has the effect of decreasing the risk of losing momentum through untimely misses, which is a useful trait to have. It doesn't do much for the concept so directly as the other options, however, which is why I believe it to be a secondary option.
Will add more to this when I have time
The only other ability I want to mention is Compoundeyes, which has the effect of decreasing the risk of losing momentum through untimely misses, which is a useful trait to have. It doesn't do much for the concept so directly as the other options, however, which is why I believe it to be a secondary option.
Will add more to this when I have time
There are a couple of things I want to discuss with regards to Unaware.
1.) How are we handling really strong attacks sans stage-boosting? Choice Band bypasses this ability entirely, and so does outright attacking with an LO or some other absurdly powerful attack. You don't get any momentum from being 2HKOed.
2.) Unaware stops working once CAP dies. If my CAP is at 30% coming in on a +2 Terakion, CAP will go down and you'll maintain your disadvantage. No momentum gain, no tangible benefits for your teammates to take advantage of. Imagine Intimidate in the same scenario: Rak is now at +1 and can't OHKO Reuniclus. Send him in and finish the job.
Also, as far as special attackers are concerned, Unaware won't help us much with that either because, most of them aren't traditional setup sweepers. Latios, Heatran, and friends are all straight up, no-boost attackers. Viable Nasty Plot users are still rare and Calm Mind users have been restricted mostly to Reuniclus and Latias. True, BP Gorebyss has caught on very quickly, but it's not nearly as omnipresent for a convincing argument.
Swords Dance is the boosting move of choice this gen hands down, and Intimidate softens their blows considerably, as well as attackers that often opt not to boost. The versatility of lowering attack a stage just by switching in is greater than ignoring the boosts of setup sweepers because it works regardless of whether or not the attacker has boosted or if CAP is healthy.
And please, let's stop arguing that 105/90 Defense is 'enough'...100/90 was hardly enough last gen when Swampert was getting demolished by +2 Close Combats, even when fully invested; I'm not holding my breath for a +2 Flare Blitz or Outrage. Intimidate makes it so that you don't even HAVE to fully invest to force out a huge portion of the metagame under most circumstances. It also frees up our EVs to check Pokemon in other ways besides max/max tank. Like, imagine an awesome Choice Scarfer with Intimidate, or a 252 HP Sub abuser. Remember, we get the 'fuck you, -1' bonus just for switching in, so the sky's the limit.
Lastly: if you're looking for that perfect ability that covers everything at once, it's just not going to happen. This CAP is going to end up weak to something no matter what we choose (as it very well should be). If we choose Intimidate, special attackers go unaddressed, but that's okay, since we can sleep at night knowing we handled physical attackers in the best way possible, and that this CAP will be changing momentum every single match because of those ever-present physical attackers.
1.) How are we handling really strong attacks sans stage-boosting? Choice Band bypasses this ability entirely, and so does outright attacking with an LO or some other absurdly powerful attack. You don't get any momentum from being 2HKOed.
2.) Unaware stops working once CAP dies. If my CAP is at 30% coming in on a +2 Terakion, CAP will go down and you'll maintain your disadvantage. No momentum gain, no tangible benefits for your teammates to take advantage of. Imagine Intimidate in the same scenario: Rak is now at +1 and can't OHKO Reuniclus. Send him in and finish the job.
Also, as far as special attackers are concerned, Unaware won't help us much with that either because, most of them aren't traditional setup sweepers. Latios, Heatran, and friends are all straight up, no-boost attackers. Viable Nasty Plot users are still rare and Calm Mind users have been restricted mostly to Reuniclus and Latias. True, BP Gorebyss has caught on very quickly, but it's not nearly as omnipresent for a convincing argument.
Swords Dance is the boosting move of choice this gen hands down, and Intimidate softens their blows considerably, as well as attackers that often opt not to boost. The versatility of lowering attack a stage just by switching in is greater than ignoring the boosts of setup sweepers because it works regardless of whether or not the attacker has boosted or if CAP is healthy.
And please, let's stop arguing that 105/90 Defense is 'enough'...100/90 was hardly enough last gen when Swampert was getting demolished by +2 Close Combats, even when fully invested; I'm not holding my breath for a +2 Flare Blitz or Outrage. Intimidate makes it so that you don't even HAVE to fully invest to force out a huge portion of the metagame under most circumstances. It also frees up our EVs to check Pokemon in other ways besides max/max tank. Like, imagine an awesome Choice Scarfer with Intimidate, or a 252 HP Sub abuser. Remember, we get the 'fuck you, -1' bonus just for switching in, so the sky's the limit.
Lastly: if you're looking for that perfect ability that covers everything at once, it's just not going to happen. This CAP is going to end up weak to something no matter what we choose (as it very well should be). If we choose Intimidate, special attackers go unaddressed, but that's okay, since we can sleep at night knowing we handled physical attackers in the best way possible, and that this CAP will be changing momentum every single match because of those ever-present physical attackers.
I just want to keep in mind a few things about abilities.
Compoundeyes is generally a bug-type ability, because in reality only insects or other 'bugs' possess Compound Eyes.
Magic Guard on top of being overpowering is also kind of senseless. Really, this makes no sense.
Cursed Body thus far has only appeared on Ghost-type Pokemon. This probably has to do with some kind of mythology about ghosts and curses or whatever. Point is it just wouldn't fit on a Fighting/Flying type unless measures were taken to change its appearance accordingly.
Air Lock is unfitting as it is meant to be a trait exclusively belonging to Rayquaza. Cloud Nine has the same effect and would actually make a lot of sense on a Fighting/Flying type, so wouldn't that work out better? I don't care that Revenankh had it, because that was a stupid decision.
Download has only appeared on Pokemon created or modified by humans. Unless we end up using the fighter plane design there's no way this would be appropriate.
Just throwing that out there. I know this is meant for competitive viability, but some of this stuff doesn't make any sense.
Compoundeyes is generally a bug-type ability, because in reality only insects or other 'bugs' possess Compound Eyes.
Magic Guard on top of being overpowering is also kind of senseless. Really, this makes no sense.
Cursed Body thus far has only appeared on Ghost-type Pokemon. This probably has to do with some kind of mythology about ghosts and curses or whatever. Point is it just wouldn't fit on a Fighting/Flying type unless measures were taken to change its appearance accordingly.
Air Lock is unfitting as it is meant to be a trait exclusively belonging to Rayquaza. Cloud Nine has the same effect and would actually make a lot of sense on a Fighting/Flying type, so wouldn't that work out better? I don't care that Revenankh had it, because that was a stupid decision.
Download has only appeared on Pokemon created or modified by humans. Unless we end up using the fighter plane design there's no way this would be appropriate.
Just throwing that out there. I know this is meant for competitive viability, but some of this stuff doesn't make any sense.
I'd like to say a few things about certain abilities.
Let's be frank here. Abilities like Cloud Nine, Filter, and even Unaware I'm beginning to find, are not nearly enough to achieve what I think should be the goal of the bulk-based ability: to patch up any remaining "holes" against very large threats while keeping with the momentum concept. Filter isn't going to help CAP 1 survive anything worth surviving (oh hey, you survived my Thundurus Thunderbolt... have another) and does nothing for the powerful neutral attacks that are going to be aimed at the team. Cloud Nine has the advantage of allowing the OHKO on Terrakion and having more effective bulk against Landorus, I suppose, but other than that it also doesn't really help against the myriad of physical attacks on which CAP 1 should capitalize. Intimidate really fits the bill here in an environment where apparently even Suicune isn't bulky enough to be sufficiently responsive against the powerful physical moves in OU. (Granted, Suicune doesn't resist Fighting or Bug, but still...) It also has an effect that lasts even if CAP 1 is KOed, which helps the revenge killer. Intimidate really needs to be on this thing.
I also realized that this is a general ability discussion and not just discussion for Ability 1 (sorry...). Right now, I mostly agree with Rising_Dusk on Prankster and Magic Bounce, Prankster much more so.
Oh, and for some clarification: Moxie is an ATTACK BOOST, and Cursed Body can activate against ALL offensive moves (I've disabled a Thunderbolt before).
Let's be frank here. Abilities like Cloud Nine, Filter, and even Unaware I'm beginning to find, are not nearly enough to achieve what I think should be the goal of the bulk-based ability: to patch up any remaining "holes" against very large threats while keeping with the momentum concept. Filter isn't going to help CAP 1 survive anything worth surviving (oh hey, you survived my Thundurus Thunderbolt... have another) and does nothing for the powerful neutral attacks that are going to be aimed at the team. Cloud Nine has the advantage of allowing the OHKO on Terrakion and having more effective bulk against Landorus, I suppose, but other than that it also doesn't really help against the myriad of physical attacks on which CAP 1 should capitalize. Intimidate really fits the bill here in an environment where apparently even Suicune isn't bulky enough to be sufficiently responsive against the powerful physical moves in OU. (Granted, Suicune doesn't resist Fighting or Bug, but still...) It also has an effect that lasts even if CAP 1 is KOed, which helps the revenge killer. Intimidate really needs to be on this thing.
I also realized that this is a general ability discussion and not just discussion for Ability 1 (sorry...). Right now, I mostly agree with Rising_Dusk on Prankster and Magic Bounce, Prankster much more so.
Oh, and for some clarification: Moxie is an ATTACK BOOST, and Cursed Body can activate against ALL offensive moves (I've disabled a Thunderbolt before).
You're right. When we want our Pokemon to be a tank like Swampert, I will hands down be voting for Intimidate.
Too bad we don't. This is a Momentum Pokemon. Not a Tank. Our goal is to switch in on certain threats and turn the momentum around. Not try to wall any physical attacker. I would definitely support Unaware because it allows us to stop the momentum of many boosting sweepers, while still having a few physical attackers (such as Band users who are predictable anyways) who can over come it. But I don't want this guy serving as people's 5th gen CAP Skarmory.
Jas, because I'm feeling nice today, I'm going to point out how stupid your response is with an excerpt of the post you just quoted.
You didn't even say anything about how the Pokemon we have now with decent defenses and Intimidate aren't automatically ruled as tanks. Primary examples: Salamence and Gyarados. There are specialized sets for them to function as tanks, but they are, first and foremost, primarily offensive Pokemon.
And do they change momentum? Hell yes, that's their job. These Pokemon were threatening because on top of awesome defensive typings that allowed them to switch into a plethora of common attacks, they absolutely forced physical attackers out by lowering their attack by a stage, and threatening to go to town on the team with boosted sweeps. Neither of these Pokemon would have half the presence they do without that free -1.
And yet you don't want this because you think a Pokemon with way less resistances and exponentially more offensive capabilities will somehow end up functioning exactly like it, sans practically everything that makes Skamory what it is?
Here, directly in the post you quoted, I just mentioned two other methods besides tanking that change momentum, not even one of them being the primary argument, yet you completely ignored them and said 'I don't want a tank.' You didn't even address the argument of how being a tank automatically disqualifies this set from being a momentum changer (and just in case you missed it, I am not advocating a full-on tank).
You didn't even say anything about how the Pokemon we have now with decent defenses and Intimidate aren't automatically ruled as tanks. Primary examples: Salamence and Gyarados. There are specialized sets for them to function as tanks, but they are, first and foremost, primarily offensive Pokemon.
And do they change momentum? Hell yes, that's their job. These Pokemon were threatening because on top of awesome defensive typings that allowed them to switch into a plethora of common attacks, they absolutely forced physical attackers out by lowering their attack by a stage, and threatening to go to town on the team with boosted sweeps. Neither of these Pokemon would have half the presence they do without that free -1.
Skarmory is one of the best momentum changers in the entire game and a prime example of a Pokemon you don't ever want to give a free turn to. It can wall a plethora of physical attackers that aren't prepared to deal with it, negate attempts to setup through Whirlwind, and make it easier for your team to come out on top through free damage from hazards. Yet, for all its defensive prowess, there are a number of physical attackers capable of outright overpowering it, not to mention mixed and special sweepers. Skarmory is a nigh-perfect example of a momentum changer with humbling weaknesses, which is a spot-on representation of what we want our new CAP to be.
And yet you don't want this because you think a Pokemon with way less resistances and exponentially more offensive capabilities will somehow end up functioning exactly like it, sans practically everything that makes Skamory what it is?
Like some people have mentioned already, the problem with Unaware is not only that Choice Band/Life Orb bypasses it, but also that the boosts remain if the opponent manages to defeat CAP 1. Once you lose CAP 1, the rest of your team is likely to be swept. For this reason, I support Intimidate because it helps soften switch-ins and gives CAP 1 more opportunities to switch in. In addition, CAP 1 can switch in multiple times, being immune to Spikes and Toxic Spikes and a neutrality to Stealth Rock, and Intimidate the foe repeatedly. Intimidate helps to gain offensive momentum because of the fact that the opponent's boosts are lowered and this may make it easier for other members of your team to defeat the opponent. Unfortunately, Intimidate does nothing against powerful special attackers like Specs Latios and Calm Mind Reuniclus. This is where Unaware comes in handy, but to be honest, Intimidate is more reliable. Unless this thing had 100/130/130 defenses, there's no way its gonna survive things like Specs Draco Meteor from Latios.
In addition, I would also like to support Magic Bounce. Magic Bounce is essentially an immunity to all status moves and can also reflect predicted entry hazards. Magic Bounce allows CAP 1 to counter Ferrothorn completely outside of Gyro Ball, and that can be PP stalled out with Roost (assuming CAP 1 gets Roost). Magic Bounce essentially means CAP 1 never has to worry about being stalled out by Toxic or Leech Seed and is also a surefire counter to Breloom, resisting both of its STAB moves and immunity to Spore. Magic Mirror is undoubtedly better on CAP 1 than Espeon or Xatu due to its above average defenses. In addition, it still maintains some offensive potential with 115 base Special Attack, equivalent of Lucario. CAP 1 also possesses arguably better STAB in Flying and Fighting than Espeon and Xatu. Magic Bounce gives CAP 1 numerous opportunities to regain momentum. Espeon's main problem was that it was to frail to survive any strong hits on the switch-in, even with defensive investment. Perhaps the only thing that Espeon has over CAP 1 with Magic Bounce is higher speed, but with CAP 1's defenses, high speed isn't all that important as long as it has decent speed to outrun stallers like Skarmory etc.
The last ability I would like to give a mention to is Prankster. Although I prefer Magic Bounce or Intimidate over Prankster, I still feel like Prankster has its merits. With Prankster, CAP 1 can utilize its decent defenses to abuse status moves and things like encore and substitute. This allows it to become similar to Whimsicott, but even better with immunity to 2/3 entry hazards and more resistances and less weaknesses. Of course, if this thing had a support movepool like Whimsicott it would be incredibly broken as it doesn't even need speed anymore...
In addition, I would also like to support Magic Bounce. Magic Bounce is essentially an immunity to all status moves and can also reflect predicted entry hazards. Magic Bounce allows CAP 1 to counter Ferrothorn completely outside of Gyro Ball, and that can be PP stalled out with Roost (assuming CAP 1 gets Roost). Magic Bounce essentially means CAP 1 never has to worry about being stalled out by Toxic or Leech Seed and is also a surefire counter to Breloom, resisting both of its STAB moves and immunity to Spore. Magic Mirror is undoubtedly better on CAP 1 than Espeon or Xatu due to its above average defenses. In addition, it still maintains some offensive potential with 115 base Special Attack, equivalent of Lucario. CAP 1 also possesses arguably better STAB in Flying and Fighting than Espeon and Xatu. Magic Bounce gives CAP 1 numerous opportunities to regain momentum. Espeon's main problem was that it was to frail to survive any strong hits on the switch-in, even with defensive investment. Perhaps the only thing that Espeon has over CAP 1 with Magic Bounce is higher speed, but with CAP 1's defenses, high speed isn't all that important as long as it has decent speed to outrun stallers like Skarmory etc.
The last ability I would like to give a mention to is Prankster. Although I prefer Magic Bounce or Intimidate over Prankster, I still feel like Prankster has its merits. With Prankster, CAP 1 can utilize its decent defenses to abuse status moves and things like encore and substitute. This allows it to become similar to Whimsicott, but even better with immunity to 2/3 entry hazards and more resistances and less weaknesses. Of course, if this thing had a support movepool like Whimsicott it would be incredibly broken as it doesn't even need speed anymore...
Oh yeah... I really don't know about Compoundeyes. I think that I'd rather just cut the crap and gun for No Guard if I were to go that route, but I'm wary of supporting an ability that allows 252 Spe CAP 1 to KO 252 HP CAP 1 without support (104.8% - 123.7% with Hurricane as opposed to 65.2% - 77.3% with Air Slash <.<).
Except CAP 1 probably will be a tank. I don't know if you're expecting certain boosting moves to be allowed, but I wouldn't count on that. We've been using tanks like Heatran and Breloom as models for this CAP the whole time. The stats are already pretty tank-like. There's nothing at all wrong with CAP 1 being a tank.
Throwing support to Intimidate, for reasons said before - it checks a lot of physical offensive threats this gen while keeping the concept of "momentum" quite high.
Prankster, as said before, is another excellent option. Priority Encore would be an extremely useful move against Excadrill or Landlos, forcing them to lock in Earthquake or to shift out. Other abilities would work well too, possibly a status set with Thunder Wave, for example. With CAP 1's not stellar base speed, at least judging from the stat spread submissions, priority would be useful.
Air Lock/Cloud Nine isn't out of the question either, just to counter weather teams (notably sandstorm), in addition to Chlorophyll or the occasional Rain Dance/Swift Swim team.
Prankster, as said before, is another excellent option. Priority Encore would be an extremely useful move against Excadrill or Landlos, forcing them to lock in Earthquake or to shift out. Other abilities would work well too, possibly a status set with Thunder Wave, for example. With CAP 1's not stellar base speed, at least judging from the stat spread submissions, priority would be useful.
Air Lock/Cloud Nine isn't out of the question either, just to counter weather teams (notably sandstorm), in addition to Chlorophyll or the occasional Rain Dance/Swift Swim team.
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