CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 5c - (Secondary Ability Discussion)

[jas61292]

As the ATL, I've been following this project very closely, and for good reason. In all of this project, nowhere—and I mean nowhere—have we (reachzero or myself) said that CAP1 should not or cannot be a good tank. As a matter of fact, CAP1 will likely be far superior in its job of grabbing and abusing momentum if it is a successful tank.

The problem with being a tank is not that it doesn't grab momentum, but that it keeps it for itself. I feel the point of this Pokemon was to grab momentum for its team, and an ability like Poison heal that makes it a big tank encourages people to use it as more of an individual rather than doing stuff for the team.

No, Regenerator really doesn't solve any problems. Lots of people seem to be too graciously accepting that on average, CAP1 gets more healing from Regenerator than Poison Heal. What they are underplaying the severity of is the fact that CAP1 has to switch out in order to actually get that healing. While this is spectacular for pivot scenarios or using Substitute once, attacking, and fleeing, it gives CAP1 absolutely no staying power whatsoever and makes CAP1 with Regenerator play in much the exact same way as CAP1 with Intimidate. But the big problem is, I'd always rather Intimidate over Regenerator! (And you should too) The Attack drop helps you take on a ton of threats that you simply would not be able to with Regenerator, and allows CAP1 to threaten and/or OHKO them all with Aura Sphere (relevant since CAP1 is slower). Regenerator doesn't provide any of these benefits.

Once again, our difference in opinion comes from the fact that I think CAP1 should be more of a team player. It should get in, grab the momentum, and (often) get out, passing the momentum to a teammate. When played like this, there may be no better ability than Ragenerator for maintaining bulk.

And specifically to your comment

I'd always rather Intimidate over Regenerator!

It is impossible for you to say that when CAP1 is nowhere near complete. At least wait until you know its moves before you assume such things.

I need to emphasize one last time that it is okay for CAP1 to tank, it is okay for CAP1 to stay in for several turns, and it is even more ok for CAP1 to be able to take hits and be a general pain to KO. There are many successful momentum grabbing Pokemon that do these things already, and CAP1 is not going to outclass any of them in a large way with Poison Heal. Please do not misinterpret what we have decided in Concept Assessment, because that may and likely will have an adverse effect on the CAP in general.

So I will restate one more time that I see what you are saying, but I think your view of this Pokemon is different than the momentum grabbing and passing idea that many of us had. I just feel that Intimidate already can work for your idea, and as such a secondary ability that is more for the quick momentum grabbing would be better for the secondary ability.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

No Secondary Ability

We're not looking to buff this CAP, we're here to create a pokemon to fulfill a concept. The concept is to swing the game's momentum in the user's favor, and we've already accomplished that with Intimidate. What do we need a secondary ability for? TO give it more staying power? How does that help momentum, and how does Poison Heal not scream BROKEN? Look, we don't want to make another Krilowatt, the only CAP to completely fail its concept. Putting Regenerator or Poison Heal on CAP1 is like when we put Magic Guard on Krilowatt. We chose to make a powerful Pokemon instead of one that fulfilled the concept. Can we please not make that mistake again?

Especially with Poison Heal. All it does is make CAP1 better. It has nothing to do with the concept. We're just making a better Gliscor, and Gliscor doesn't need to be better. So, please, let's just leave it with Intimidate, an ability that is specifically designed to give the user momentum by weakening the opponent. Regenerator's just plain broken. If you've seen Slowbro, a formerly mediocre pokemon, now with Regenerator, you know what I'm talking about. SR isn't as common as it used to be, and CAP1 will not always be taking SR damage. This is basically a free 33% just for switching. It's counter-conceptual and borderline broken.

Maybe a weaker secondary ability will do, like Overcoat or Battle Armor, but stay away from super-abilities. We tried it with Krilowatt, and made an embarrassment to the CAP project.

Let's just leave it at Imtimidate.

 

[Scoopapa]

I like the idea of regenerator a lot more than poison heal right now. I think the main draw of both is that they keep our health high without giving the opponent a safe turn while we Roost or Recover. I think regenerator will actually do this job better, however, because it doesn't require or encourage CAP1 to stick around (while not taking damage) in order to work. If CAP1 is actually staying in for multiple turns on end, he is likely doing one or more of the following things:

a. using Protect
b. taking damage from your opponent's counter
c. sweeping while regaining health

Point a. is pretty awful for momentum, and point c. is something we are intentionally trying to avoid. Point b. is pretty much sacrificing CAP1, which isn't necessarily bad, but is counter-productive to increasing his longevity (the whole point of either ability). Basically, if CAP1 is managing to stay in for 3+ turns while regaining health and gaining momentum for your team, I think that is much too powerful. Most reasonable outcomes would sacrifice either staying in for multiple turns or gaining momentum for your team. Since we obviously aren't sacking the latter, I think regenerator would be the better or the two "keep our health high" abilities.

None of this addresses the issue of status immunity, however, although I think DrkSlay covered that pretty well in his post. The argument "status would hurt CAP1's ability to gain momentum" can be "reduced to the absurd" fairly easily when you consider that being hit by a super-effective attack, being Encored into the wrong move, or being caught by an unfavorable double switch would all also be bad for momentum. In other words, I think giving CAP1 status immunity needs more justification than simply "status is bad". Right now, I don't think anybody has pointed out why status is any worse for CAP1 than it is for any other pokemon. Regenerator would be pretty darn good at mitigating the effects of poison and burn, anyway, unless we have CAP1 staying in for turns on end, which I've already said is probably a bad thing.

 

[SJCrew]

While agree with you in the respect that we absolutely do not want another Krilowatt, you have to consider what the CAP project is all about: testing. We're exploring certain aspects of competitive Pokemon that are currently underrepresented and doing our best to ensure this one project answers as many questions about the concept as possible.

Intimidate fits like a glove for this concept, but there's too much it leaves in the dark for us to just stop right here. CAP will not be able to reverse momentum against strong special attackers or sturdy supporters as is. Priority status and support moves are scarily effective at turning the match in your favor by ensuring that not only this CAP gets the upperhand, but anything else that may have to take its place during the battle.

Bouncing back and shutting down stall tactics with ease is also criminally effective vs. defensive teams and strategies, which are still a force to be reckoned with in such an offensive generation. Jirachi doesn't get to Twave you, Breloom can't put you to sleep, and Ferrothorn can't do anything. Also, having such a reliable method of keeping rocks on your opponents side of the field while having none on yours is huge: he's taking indirect damage, you're not, making it much more rewarding for you to force switches on your opponent while they can't do the same.

These ideas are all about momentum, something we need to be focusing on rather than making this Pokemon as sturdy or hard to beat as possible (which is why I'm starting to express concern with Regenerator and Poison Heal getting so much support, tbh). There are too many directions we can explore with this concept to fall back on our usual gambit of recklessly making this the next Best Pokemon Ever.

 

[Gerard]

Again, i'm suggesting Prankster as posted in the last disscusion i think this save you from being outspeed for many of the top treaths because of your "low"speed, it helps reatining a swiching momentum by making your opponent unable to set-up (whit things like encore and taunt) and being able to status them, this allows it to retain momentum by not being scared away by pokes that will outspeed it by actually having something to treathen them (like burning(ph sweper)/paralizing(anyone)/intoxicating(walls)

 

[Korski]

Throwing something out there for fun:
A situational ability that I think would greatly serve the concept is Rattled. Rattled is a pretty cool, unexplored ability that nets a nifty speed boost off of Bug, Ghost, and Dark attacks (no immunity, though). With Rattled, you could switch into an opponent's 4x resisted U-turn, for instance, and net yourself a +1 Speed boost. With 85 Speed, CAP can outrun all base 130s with 232 EVs and a neutral nature or 136 EVs and a boosting nature, or, obviously, anything below base 85 Speed with a Choice Scarf.

This is literally stealing momentum. Not only is it stealing momentum, it is discouraging the opponent from using one of the best momentum-maintaining moves in the game, U-turn. Throwing Dark-type (also resisted) and Ghost-type moves into the mix makes for some added mindgames and really allows CAP to play along with its teammates better by discouraging those types of attacks. It also plays well with Intimidate by taking a slightly offensive approach that can only be activated situationally. But, it doesn't have to be played offensively. +1 Speed makes Toxic stalling much easier and allows CAP to Roost before things like Thundurus's Thunderbolt (or force it to use T-Wave) or Starmie's BoltBeam and take neutral damage as opposed to being forced out (or you could outright attack them if you can KO). This completely changes what the opponent can switch into CAP compared to if it had Intimidate as its ability. and will certainly keep the opponent in reactionary mode if played correctly.

Other than that, I'd say Prankster is a solid choice that makes CAP a worse tank but a better team player when compared to Intimidate.

 

[JGSabino]

IMO, the best abilities are Prankster, Compoundeyes and maybe Serene Grace.

Prankster - OMFG priority SubRoost/SubSplit or Glare? Hell Yeah.

Compoundeyes - While Intimidate helps defending, Compoundeyes helps attacking. STAB Hurricane and Focus Blast anyone? And don't say this is broken, it can't really sweep with 85 base Spe and no Stat-boosting moves (I hope).

Serene Grace - What about a Fighting Togekiss? Glare and Hax Slash FTW (lol)! I know Togekiss wasn't not that good back in 4G, but this CAP can only have 2 good abilities and there's still a DW Ability missing (sorry if this is Poll Jump, but Serene Grace could even be its DW Ability).


EDIT: I simply don't like Poison Heal because I will always choose Gliscor > CAP 1 (unless CAP 1 has an extensive Support movepool). Magic Bounce is another awesome ability, but I don't think that a Fighting-type should get it. Also, why Regenerator when you already have Roost (with priority if this CAP does get Prankster) to heal?

 

[Stratos]

I also like Prankster and Rattled as our momentum abilities here.

 

[doominic77]

I fairly like the idea of Compound eyes but I still give my support to Poison Heal.

Poison Heal vs. Regenerate

Although Poison Heal doesn't heal as much health as regenerate the main thing is that Toxic Orb CAP 1 with Poison Heal negates status afflictions. I've been looking for an ability that negates status affliction which to my knowledge there isn't. However Poison Heal can do this if it can avoid status for the first turn (maybe Protect Toxic Orb anyone).

 

[SJCrew]

Rattled is a rather interesting ability, but only for taking advantage of U-turn. It'd be a much better move if the Pokemon that got it were any good, but even then, it's too much niche and not enough consistency.

I've been looking for an ability that negates status affliction which to my knowledge there isn't.

Wait, that's it? You just want to get rid of status? Why is status negation so important that we have to go for anything that does it without considering the ramifications? Magic Bounce tosses back both status and hazards, which ruins all kinds of defensive momentum. What in the world does free healing and status immunity have to do with momentum stealing?

 

[doominic77]

Wait, that's it? You just want to get rid of status? Why is this so important that we get a second Gliscor with better STABs and overall offense? Go for Magic Bounce, which tosses back both status and hazards, and acts as a pretty big "fuck you" to defensive momentum in general.

Magic Bounce is a restricted ability.

 

[petrie911]

For a reliable competitive ability, I like Prankster. It's definitely complementary to Intimidate, and the movepool restrictions it implies shouldn't hamper Intimidate sets either. I'll also suggest Thick Fat. By giving CaP1 a Fire resist and Ice neutrality, it can more easily come on on some specially-based threats like Heatran.

For a less reliable ability, I still like Rattled, for the reasons Admiral Korski outlined.

A process-related issue of note: although this is called the "secondary ability", at our discretion we may choose to make this instead a Dream World ability, presumed released. The reason to do this would be in the eventuality that there are very powerful move + ability combinations that we would like to see excluded.

How would making it a DW ability allow for illegal move+ability combos? CaP1 can't learn any 4th or 3rd gen tutors/TMs, and egg moves can be bred onto DW mons.

 

[TravelLog]

Having brought up Prankster to begin with in the last discussion, I think I have something of a duty to defend it here.

For starters, since Intimidate is already a defensive ability, helping with tanking, it's a good idea to try to go a different direction with our CAP's secondary ability, and I think Prankster fits this perfectly, serving as a supportive rather than a defensive option. More importantly, I think it adds momentum variability and gives our CAP multiple options in its approach to stealing/keeping momentum in ways that other abilities simply don't.

Furthermore, I think Poison Heal really limits our CAP, since in many posters desire to achieve "full status immunity" our CAP would be limited to using Toxic Orb for an item. This immediately cuts off other item sets.

In any case, the point I'm trying to make is that Prankster fulfills the support side of our CAP while also adding many more viable non-damaging move options and making them far easier to run.

In short, Prankster is the way to go.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

I can't agree with either Poison Heal or Regenerate. Neither of them seem to have any kind of merit where the concept is concerned, and neither are they so outclassed that they cannot have any impact on the way that CAP1 is played. True, Intimidate is a fantastic defensive ability, but there is still the danger that alternative routes and channels are opened up for CAP1 to take advantage of.

No, I don't believe that CAP1 should be a wall, of sorts. I am perfectly willing to admit that halting the opponent in its tracks is a good way of regaining momentum, but the thing I am most worried about is this: staying power. There was nothing in the concept description that stated that CAP1 needed to maintain momentum after having gained it, and certainly not for so long that it would qualify as a wall. Something about the consistent ability to come in and then stay in reeks of too much power, but I'll lay that to rest for now.

I'm pretty sure there's ample precedent for putting ridiculously overpowered abilities on CAPmon for no better reason than "because we can", but as others have leaned on this pretty strongly already, I think it's probably best to skip over the examples and head on to the core details. There is almost no reason whatsoever to give CAP1 Regenerator or Poison Heal that actually has any relevance to the concept itself. You may well say "oh but it makes it bulkier so it can come in more yay", but really, what does this have to do with gaining momentum at its most fundamental? Yes, the extra health gained can allow you to switch in more often, and that's perfectly fine. But that doesn't really mean anything, for no reason other than the exact same reasoning that could be applied to almost any other concept. My real reservations about these abilities aren't that they have no use; rather, that they are just generically useful. The only reason they help is that they are inherently good abilities, rather than being tailored towards gaining momentum.

I can only support Prankster for another competitive ability, since that's the only one I've seen (with the possible exception of Cursed Body but hey who the hell is going to vote for that) that actually seems to go some way towards supporting the concept. Either that, or No Secondary Ability. I don't subscribe to the school of thought that says that the CAPmon should be able to have niches outside of its core role. Inevitably it will do regardless, and any attempt on our part to fuel that will only result in imbalance. History teaches us that much.

So yeah. No to "just cause" abilities please.

 

[Unlimited Breadsticks]

I feel that the secondary ability should be a flavor ability, being that Intimidate pretty much fits this perfectly. The problem with a flavor ability is that we can't really come up with one without the design decided. And yet, it feels like Overcoat would work either way. The weather immunity has use, but the ability would fit on almost every design that's getting notice, namely in that most involve cloud cover or feathers. Additionally, the CAP would spend effort trying to cope with the slight damage.

But I suppose the cosmetic aspects of the abilities aren't as important to the CAP as their viability. I guess I'm just old-fashioned like that.

 

[Mektar]

Magic Bounce. It's so perfect for momentum!

 

[Stratos]

MAGIC BOUNCE IS TOO OVERPOWERED AND I REFUSE TO PUT IT IN THE POLL.

Paraphrased. emphasis mine.

Note: I'm not being condescending or snide to reachzero with this post, sorry if it may come off that way.

 

[RitterCat]

Like the primary ability discussion, Arena Trap, Drizzle, Drought, Imposter, Multitype, Shadow Tag, Tinted Lens, Wonder Guard, and Zen Mode are out of consideration, and now Huge Power, Magic Bounce, Pure Power and Unaware are out of consideration as well.

EDIT: Ninja'd Blargh

 

[Unlimited Breadsticks]

I realize we need to select a secondary ability that would set this CAP apart from Lucario, because at the moment it's a slightly bulkier Lucario with fewer resists and lower attack.
e: yeah that's very general, but we need to decide on an ability that can give it a bigger edge

 

[Stratos]

Actually, I think there's something to be said for Unaware. While Quagsire is a giant pain in the rear with Unaware, it boasts a single weakness to a rare attacking type that's hardly used outside of STAB for its poor coverage. It also has the ability to raise both defenses simultaneously with Stockpile. As long as we're careful with our movepool, this pokemon with four weaknesses to STABs from very strong pokemon on both spectrums should be able to nab momentum from a boosting sweeper without turning into a blatant wall (Note: I still support Jittery and Prankster, just making a case)

 

[kalamadude]

I agree completely with Bugmaniacbob (not that my opinion has much to do with anything - I'm pretty sure no one has responded to a single post of mine in these discussion threads). Regeneration and Poison Heal are spectacular abilities. They would unequivocally make CAP1 just straight up better. But we already gave it a stellar typing and excellent stats, plus everyone more or less assumes it's going to get dynamite moves like Whirlwind and Roost too (polljumping, but really). I LOVE Regeneration. It's my favorite new ability and I use Slowbro on every team because of it. But jeez, it has nothing to do with Momentum, since you have to be switching out to even use it. And Poison Heal? What the hell is that? Yes you're immune to status...AND? Immunity to status doesn't make more momentum, it just makes a better Pokémon. Add double leftovers to it and you have one potent ability. We all saw how much tougher Gliscor became once he got it and now every single set runs it. Why are we considering giving this amazing ability that is totally unrelated to the concept? I'm totally at a loss and frankly am kind of scared that this is going to go to poll with these two options not being fully discussed leading to some knee-jerk choices giving us yet another overpowered CAP :/


Edit: It's not just that they would cause imbalance (though I still think they would), it's just that they're being suggested just for the sake of being suggested or just to make CAP1 a better Pokémon in general - not for flavor, not to better meet the concept, but just BECAUSE. I'm really trying to see the argument for these two abilities influencing momentum in the slightest and I'm struggling to see it.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

There's a lot of fear about imbalance coming from either Regenerator or Poison Heal, and quite frankly I'm not seeing it. Both can have movepool limitations imposed alongside them if the need arises, but even without them, anyone who's played BW can tell you that Pokemon with these abilities available to them are not broken in the slightest. Gliscor, for instance, is faster than CAP1 and even has access to SD (which CAP1 will not) and is fine. Gliscor also packs some useful coverage moves, which I suspect CAP1 will lack regardless of secondary ability simply because it has no need for them. Similarly for Regenerator, Slowbro is pretty damned amazing, but not an impassible wall that the metagame cannot handle. Slowbro even has better physical bulk than CAP1, and a much better coverage movepool including Ice Beam and Flamethrower, things CAP1 won't be getting no matter what. Sure, Slowbro is err, slow, but I think Slowbro makes a strong case that an ability like Regenerator is not even remotely capable of breaking CAP1.

How would making it a DW ability allow for illegal move+ability combos? CaP1 can't learn any 4th or 3rd gen tutors/TMs, and egg moves can be bred onto DW mons.

CAP1 can be made a male-only DW release, which entails that it cannot use its DW ability with egg moves. One such Pokemon with this applying to it in OU already is Venusaur, just to give you an example.

 

[DetroitLolcat]

I was adamant about no secondary ability, but I'm really starting to like Rattled.

Prankster, maybe. Just let's not go overboard with the support moves.

 

[Unlimited Breadsticks]

I'm not ready to rule out Rattled. It would work well with the typing. I still prefer Overcoat though.

 

[Thorhammer]

Snow Warning seems pointless. Prankster combined with the capability to learn Hail would allow it to accomplish essentially the same thing.

I now also support Rattled for the reasons stated previously. For similar reasons, I additionally support Quick Feet.