CAP 12 CAP1 - Part 8 - (Counters Discussion)

[reachzero]

We do not want CAP1 to be so strong that it can destroy entire teams, and thus far we have done an excellent job of avoiding this. In this thread, we will discuss potential counters for CAP1--not only identifying which Pokemon will likely counter it, but actively deciding which of these potential counters SHOULD counter it. Keep in mind that our decisions in this thread will have strong consequences for the movepool--if you want a Pokemon to be countered by Swampert, you don't give it Giga Drain.


Here is our Pokemon so far:

Concept: Momentum
General Description: This will be a Pokemon that can be utilized to gain or regain momentum for a player's team at any point in the match as its primary function.
Justification: Gen. 5 is a very powerful metagame. As such, most battles are won by the smarter strategist who can best maneuver around his/her opponent's onslaught to gain even a single turn's advantage, potentially clinching them the match. This process of gaining and regaining momentum is most often the defining element that makes a winner and a loser out of a single Pokemon battle. Any top player in this metagame should agree that momentum is the most crucial element in any given match; however, "momentum" itself is a rather vaguely defined term that is never really explored in concrete terms. Is it keeping opposing teams on the defensive? Forcing switches? Good prediction? Spamming U-turn? These have all been approaches to achieving momentum, but they are also player-side and largely synonymous with "strategy," as opposed to Pokemon-side and regarding a Pokemon's role on the team. Certainly there are threats like Ferrothorn/Gliscor (defensive) and Scizor/Latios/Voltlos, etc., etc. (offensive) that can achieve momentum as we know it, but there is no current niche for a "momentum Pokemon" because the concept has been purely delegated to players and not to Pokemon.
Questions to be Answered:
-How do we define momentum in terms of competitive Pokemon? What factors make current Pokemon able to achieve momentum and how can we incorporate that information into a successful CAP?
-How do different styles of play (Weather-based offense, stall, bulky offense, etc.) use momentum to achieve their goals and how can our CAP play to those strategies in an effort to take their momentum away?
-What type of traditional role (sweeper, tank, wall, support) would a Pokemon like this most resemble? Would it have to be able to fit more than one of these roles to fit in a variety of teams?
-How will the different playstyles be affected by the addition of a Pokemon that can regain offensive/defensive momentum at any given point? Will offensive teams play more conservatively? Will defensive teams play more recklessly? Will everything simply adapt to a new threat and move on normally?

Typing: Flying/Fighting

Base Stats: 105 HP/60 Atk/90 Def/115 SpA/80 SpD/85 Spe

Abilities: Intimidate/Prankster


This thread will close when the Art Poll is opened.

 

[Destiny Warrior]

Woohooo its here.

Reuniclus - Kind of obvious really, this is a highly common Psychic type, and by typing checks CAP1. I feel it is crucial for CAP1 to be checked by this Pokemon.

Tornadus - Has access to a strong STAB Hurricane, but I'm not fully sure on this one. It has a niche on Rain teams, and I feel CAP1 must encourage it by by being weak to it.

Thundurus - Resists its STABs, and can strike back with STAB SE Thunderbolt. A no-brainer imo.

Lati@s - Check by virtue of typing, giving this CAP Ice Beam/Dragon Pulse/Dark Pulse/Shadow ball would be a bit too good for comfort in my opinion.

Blissey - Special sponge. Should take on CAP comfortably if CAP wants to be balanced, and luring any of the checks out repeatedly is defintiely a way to gain momentum.

EDIT: First post, just because I'm fast. ;)

 

[AlphaJolt]

I agree with DW's suggestions and would like to add Jellicent. It is immune to the Fighting STAB and has a nice SpDef to take other neutral attacks. The thing it lacks is that it can't hit back with a STAB move, although it does have Ice Beam.

Starmie is not nearly as bulky and also resists the Fighting STAB. It has instant recovery, can hit with either Thunderbolt or Ice Beam, and also outspeeds it and can reliably revenge kill a weakened CAP1. With Natural Cure, it can heal any status that CAP1 inflicts before dying.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

The biggest counters to CAP 1 will be Thundurus & Reuniclus. Reuniclus is, as Destiny_Warrior observes, is a very very obvious check courtesy its Psychic typing. Starmie is yet another Psychic type who can 2HKO with STAB Psychic (64% on average even to max / max + CAP1), meaning Ice Beam / Thunderbolt will most certainly 2HKO CAP1 with consummate ease.

Thundurus has a very handy resistance to both of CAP1's STABs, a faster priority Taunt, a STAB Thunderbolt that will 2HKO CAP1 no matter what make it very difficult for CAP1 to take on Thundurus. Thundurus can easily set up Nasty Plot on CAP1, too.

In the same vein, Zapdos can comfortably wall whatever CAP1 throws at it, outspeed it and deal heavy damage with STAB Thunderbolt. It can stall just as well too, with Roost and its large support movepool.

The fact that Zapdos and Thundurus both check CAP1 is pretty good, making it a balanced Pokemon. Zapdos can outstall it, Thundurus can Taunt it and make it set-up bait. The fact that they both outspeed CAP1 is also noted.

 

[jas61292]

As the first few people have said, Reuniclus and Thundurus (and Tornadus) all seem like they can be great counters. Being able to survive the attacks CAP1 will probably get, having Super Effective STABS, and being able to stop/avoid status based strategies with a faster Prankster or Magic Guard make these guys almost perfect counters.

Zapdos also does a good job, much like Thundurus, however it may have to rely more on direct attacking, as while it can take hits and dish them out, It wouldn't really be able to use its common stalling techniques, depending on CAP1's move pool. If CAP1 gets Taunt and/or Roost and Toxic (cause everyone gets Toxic), it could actually use Zapdos's Strategy against it via Prankster priority.

However, for most other Pokemon, Taunt is definitely going to be one of them most important moves to decide on for CAP1.
If it does not get Taunt, guys like Tentacruel and Bronzong can be a fairly good counters. They are not going to take too much from CAP1 and set up on it.

But if it does get Taunt, counters may have to be much more offensive, such as Starmie, Jolteon or, dare I say it, Alakazam. These Pokemon can come in on a resisted move or predicted Taunt/other status move, and threaten with powerful STAB SE moves.

 

[bugmaniacbob]

Can I just reiterate to everybody that we are meant to be discussing what should be counters, rather than what looks like it could be a good counter at the moment... it doesn't matter how well Thundurus seems to check it if we don't want it to be a check.

I have to disagree with Reuniclus being any more than a moderate offensive check. Quite frankly I can't see anything worse for momentum than giving what is possibly the single most dangerous solo sweeper in OU a free turn to begin setting up. And that's pretty bad where Momentum is concerned. I also don't think that Taunt is the answer since I'm completely against that alongside Prankster, but that's a side concern. No, I don't want to blow this out of proportion, I know that giving Reuniclus one Calm Mind isn't the end of the world... but it's not really fulfilling the concept, if something so common can force it out and gain from its presence. Checking is fine, to the point at which CAP1 still represents a threat to Reuniclus, so you still have the essential momentum, as they are forced to be predictable.

Aside from that, I don't have time to post a detailed thought process thing, but here's what I'm thinking at the moment.

CAP1 should not be fully countered by any common set-up sweepers or supporters, if it can be prevented, and should only be checked on a mutual basis.

Giving Volcarona a chance to set up Quiver Dance, or Skarmory to set up Spikes (hypothetically speaking, not applying this to CAP1 alone) is a sure-fire way to put yourself on the back foot. For that reason, I am adamant that CAP1 should not have any full counters in Pokemon who have the potential to set up on the switch. Checks are perfectly fine. For example, CAP1 should present a threat to Thundurus, whereby it is dangerous for the Thundurus user to do anything but attack with Thunderbolt, but this threat to CAP1 allows it to be checked. This should be consistent for all bulky threats.

Hence:

CAP1 should be checked effectively by those that cannot take full advantage of the free turn.

What I mean by this is that CAP1's ability to threaten offensively should be such that it threatens, but at the same time can be threatened back by those that spend their time not sitting around accumulating boosts. This means that such Pokemon as Starmie, Jellicent, Tornadus, Zapdos, and the like are good choices. This is also an excellent way of differentiating between Zapdos and Thundurus. SpDef Zapdos is not 2HKOed by Modest LO HP Ice, while standard Thundurus is with Stealth Rock. Not to mention that Zapdos is faster and can also Roost-stall, which Thundurus can't.

Oh, and also Vaporeon, Tentacruel, and other bulky Water-types.

Not entirely sure how one can threaten Reuniclus without OHKOing Starmie... but still.

CAP1 should be checked by anything more defensively orientated.

Seeing as we're trying to make this less of a sweeper (or so I gather), anything significantly specially defensive without the complete capacity to attack back should be considered. Thusly, Blissey, Chansey, Dusknoir, Dusclops, and the like.

That's all I have so far. I'll come back if I have any more thoughts.

 

[capefeather]

I think that CAP 1 should be countered by defensive Steel-type Fighting neutralities and defensive Poison-type Flying neutralities. I think that one Pokémon who has been talked about in the past and has helped to push this CAP into being a special attacker is Skarmory. Let's look at how CAP 1 currently matches up to Skarmory assuming it gets Aura Sphere:

252+ CAP 1 Aura Sphere vs 252/240+ Skarmory: 40.4% - 47.9%

Considering that Skarmory's counterattack on CAP 1 will most likely be Brave Bird, this seems like enough pressure to scare it off. I don't believe that CAP 1 should be helped further against bulkier Steels/Poisons, especially considering that CAP 1 could now very well run something like Substitute / Toxic / Aura Sphere / ??? and become a mean wall-breaker.

 

[JGSabino]

Anything with good SpD that is not weak to one of its STABs is a good check.

Reuniclus and Lati@s are even better checks (or counters, all depends in its movepool) for CAP 1, but a predicted Dark Pulse will still hurt. Indeed, Dark Pulse means no SubRoost + STABs, but who cares about Substitute?

Thundrus can set up Nasty Plot while takes NVE moves and then sweep (or not), and Dark Pulse will not hurt that much without 252+ SpA. Same thing for Zapdos, but Zapdos will not like Priority Toxic/Taunt before he uses (or tries to use) Substutute.

Jolteon and Starmie can also take it, but almost no one uses them now (Ferrothorn is a bitch, isn't it?).

 

[Gerard]

I've read a lot of the counters this Cap should have and i agree in that making it a bait for Reuniclus is a good thing by making it be predictable, but somehow this should be able to NOT let him use a Calm Mind or worst use that single turn to set Trick Room and begin to sweep your entire team (something for wich Taunt seems apropiate), or to let other pokemon use the turn to do stuff like set subs, that is obviously a great lost in momentum, still, I believe he could be countered by set-up sweepers if he gets Snatch, this very underrated move that would make set-up sweepers think twice before using their DD, SD, etc... because of CAP1 stealling them their Stats and even being able to kill them in return

Good Counters would be Zapdos and Thundurus because of resisting it's stabs and being able to attack back (still Zapdos could fear using Sub because it getting steal), any strong Psyquic/Water(with ice beam)/Electric should be able to revenge kill him with not a lot of risk, and all the Bulky waters should be able to at least treathen him to some degree (but still be unable to use thing like Wish or T-Spikes wthout risk)

Stuff like Skarmory should scare him (because of Brave Bird), bt should be unable to use spikes for fear of something (like taunt or magic coat)

And anything like Blissey (Ice Beam), Chansey, Dusclops, Porygon2 (Ice Beam) and Jellicent (ice beam) should at least take a hit and be able to do something to it without being KO by taking hits

 

[Bughouse]

I think a short obvious list should include: Reuniclus, Alakazam, Slowbro, Espeon, Starmie, Slowbro, Lati@s, Bronzong, Zapdos, Dragonite, Thundurus, Tentacruel (and Bulky Waters in general), Jolteon, and Jellicent.

 

[Sambobz]

it seems that espeon would be a perfect counter to all prankster variants of CAP1, it can switch into a taunt or another predicted move and ohko with it's psychic against a max hp. non specially defensive varient and does 59% to a maxed out specially defensive CAP.

I also agree with bugmaniacbobs first point.

 

[NDenizen]

Seeing as this pokemon is about Momentum, should it really be made to have a hard time with Trick Room? If your opponent uses Trick Room, that's pretty much placing Momentum in their hands, so why would a pokemon designed to handle momentum then be forced to struggle against pokemon like Slowbro, Bronzong and Reuniclus, that are often the main users of it? CAP1 would likely need a good Dark or Bug move, or otherwise something to turn the tables back before its KOed, such as Prankster Copycat, to not be walked over by a TR team.

 

[Thorhammer]

Seeing as this pokemon is about Momentum, should it really be made to have a hard time with Trick Room? If your opponent uses Trick Room, that's pretty much placing Momentum in their hands, so why would a pokemon designed to handle momentum then be forced to struggle against pokemon like Slowbro, Bronzong and Reuniclus, that are often the main users of it? CAP1 would likely need a good Dark or Bug move, or otherwise something to turn the tables back before its KOed, such as Prankster Copycat, to not be walked over by a TR team.

Prankster Copycat allows any move to be given priority. I don't think that's something that would be wise to include on this CAP.

Prankster Encore, on the other hand, would screw up just about anything attempting to set up - Trick Room, stat-up moves, entry hazards, etc. With this in mind, I don't think we'll have to worry much about any of those things being much of a concern.

 

[cco]

I think that bugmaniacbob really hit the nail on the head. To get momentum we've gotta be forcing opponents to be forcing out pokes that are doing important things like setting up for a sweep and make them bring in pokes that don't help them gain positioning. So stuff like Blissey and Dusknoir etc. should counter this CAP. I'm going to post an updated list when I have time as it's quite late here.

 

[KokoaKiwi]

Reuniclus can stop cold this pokémon. Resisting Aura Sphere/Focus Miss, it can come with impunity and threaten back with a powerful Psychic or Calm Mind + Recover, unless cap 01 knows Encore. Jellycent has enough special defense to laugh at STAB moves and proceed to Recover, burn, poison, or just hit back. Finally, there's the elemental genies (as well as zapdos, for that matter) who can come in and threaten with their own STAB moves.

 

[Rising_Dusk]

CAP1 should not be fully countered by any common set-up sweepers or supporters, if it can be prevented, and should only be checked on a mutual basis.

I disagree with some parts of this post, and agree with some others. Even if we give CAP1 a super effective attack against Reuniclus, we're not doing over 50% damage to it even before it gets Calm Mind boosts (120 SpA CAP1 vs. 252/4 Reuniclus: 39.2% - 46.2%). I think of all Pokemon, Reuniclus should be the one that stops CAP1 cold. We need a common and powerful Pokemon that can take advantage of CAP1. Truth is, neither Toxic nor paralysis bother Reuniclus, since it's immune to the effects of both anyway and appreciates the Speed drop for TR sets. This is echoed for Sigilyph, which also doesn't care, runs Flame Orb most of the time, and can just build up a Stored Power through Calm Mind boosts to rock CAP1's world. Fine with me, sounds good.

Reuniclus and Sigilyph should be solid counters to CAP1.

Now you do bring up another good point, though, and that's that we don't want CAP1 ceding momentum via letting massively threatening Speed/offense-boosting Pokemon setup. So, by some means (presumably paralysis), we should force opposing super offensive setup sweepers to attack immediately rather than setup on CAP1.

Strong setup sweepers like Volcarona, Terrakion, Salamence, and Thundurus should check CAP1 only through offense and not setup.

Notice I didn't include any of the popular Ground-type sweepers in that list. CAP1, between STAB Fighting-type attacks and Hidden Power Ice maims all of these Ground-type sweepers anyway (Garchomp, Landorus, Excadrill). They will be forced to switch or attack outright against a sufficiently weakened CAP1 if they want to survive no matter what. I do agree with your statement about non-setup Pokemon, though. Zapdos and Tornadus will always be encouraged to attack right away since they cannot setup.

Zapdos, Rotom-W, Nidoking, Espeon, Mew, Kyurem, and Tornadus should check CAP1.

I say check because CAP1 can of course beat them all with some mixture of Toxic and Substitute, or paralyze them, or use a super effective attack, or Taunt, or something. Kyurem's weak to Aura Sphere, for instance, but if CAP1 is without a Substitute, it can OHKO it with Ice Beam. Mew can do a ton of things, and beats CAP1 with something, but some sets are bothered by Taunt and/or status. These guys can switch in and scare CAP1 out with super effective attacks. I haven't included bulky Water-type Pokemon in this list of checks for a good reason. I think that having them check CAP1 is an unfortunate side effect of our lowish SpA stat, and shouldn't happen because being walled by the likes of Slowbro cedes so much of the momentum we want to hold onto it's not funny. For this reason, I support in our eventual movepool some means to deal with them that doesn't also deal with the checks I listed above (likely Grass Knot only, though this doesn't help much with Vaporeon).

Also, extraordinarily specially bulky Pokemon should be able to check CAP1 for hopefully obvious reasons. Vaporeon probably fits in this section, but I'm lobbing her in more with the bulky Water-types for now.

Blissey, Chansey, Dusclops, and Cresselia should check CAP1.

Again, I say check because between Toxic and Substitute abuse or some other means, I do expect and hope that CAP1 can beat them. However, 4MSS applies here, and you can't beat everything regardless of your move choice (that's important).

 

[Deck Knight]

It's not really helpful to turn this thread into lists of type-counters. Be specific about a threat and explain why we should or shouldn't be able to threaten it. bugmaniacbob provides an excellent example of what to do.

If CAP1 can threaten it, it's a check. If we can't, it's a counter. Prankster Taunt does blow a large hole in many defensive Pokemon for example, and prevents the likes of Skarm from setting up hazards, but it will still eat Brave Bird. 4x weaknesses are all almost by definition checks because of a decently backed Hidden Power, however bulkier Pokemon like Zapdos will be hard counters barring extraordinary measures.

I feel fine threatening Reuniclus and by implication Starmie. 115 SpA can't 2HKO Reuniclus without a boosting item like Life Orb and a super-effective attack like Shadow Ball. Such coverage will be fine, since Jellicent is even harder to 2HKO and has Cursed Body.

 

[Thorhammer]

Reuniclus can stop cold this pokémon. Resisting Aura Sphere/Focus Miss, it can come with impunity and threaten back with a powerful Psychic or Calm Mind + Recover, unless cap 01 knows Encore. Jellycent has enough special defense to laugh at STAB moves and proceed to Recover, burn, poison, or just hit back. Finally, there's the elemental genies (as well as zapdos, for that matter) who can come in and threaten with their own STAB moves.

Encore would make it easier for CAP1 to switch in against a Reuniclus in the middle of set-up and shut it down, but it wouldn't do anything to prevent Reuniclus from switching in against CAP1 and hitting it in the face with a STAB Psychic. Encore wouldn't make Reuniclus not counter CAP1; it would just make them check each other.

 

[ungulateman]

Zapdos and Reuniclus are the obvious choices here. Both bulky attackers with useful resistances who can exploit this Pokemon's weaknesses. They're also unaffected by Intimidate, being special attackers.

Gliscor is a potential check, given that it can poison CAP1 with a Toxic Orb, and hit with a powerful Acrobat. It can only switch in on resisted moves, however.

 

[Galladiator]

I agree that Reuniclus, Blissey, and Jellicent should counter this CAP; however, we should also give mention to sweepers like Gengar, since he won't mind a Taunt and can 2HKO with a Life Orb-boosted Thunderbolt.

 

[fatty]

Some potential counters that have yet to be mentioned include Togekiss, Mandibuzz, Mew, Jirachi, and Deoxys-D. Togekiss and Mandibuzz are both neutral to each of CAP 1's STABs and should be able to soak up it's attacks with ease due to their respectable special bulk. Additionally, both can strike back with a STAB move of their own, Air Slash for Togekiss and Brave Bird for Mandibuzz. Also, both have a base 80 Speed, which is a blessing in disguise. This means that because they are 5 base speed slower than CAP 1, they can both Roost off damage without taking a SE Fighting attack.

The Psychic type counters play a bit differently, all in a way each their own. Mew is as versatile as ever, but one of the most common sets, Stallbreaker (general term for a taunt + status moveset), happens to seem to deal with CAP 1 fairly well. Mew's bulk and resistance to Fighting makes switching in fairly easy. From there, it can use it's STAB Psychic to severely damage CAP 1. It can also use it's other plethora of options to keep CAP 1 and the opponent on their heels. On a bit more defensive note, Deoxys-D, just like Mew, easily switches into CAP 1. It, too, can significantly damage CAP 1 with Psychic, but it also can use it's free turns to set up entry hazards upon entry hazards as well as recover off all the damage it has taken. Jirachi, on the other hand, is a different case. It resists Flying attacks, is neutral to Fighting, and can become a potent threat after boosting a couple times with CM, making CAP 1's attacks hurt less and less. It can even utilize a Twave + Iron Head set to hax it's way past CAP 1.

Hope that helped bring some not as well known counters / checks into the picture!

(I think this also proves that CM would not be ideal for CAP 1 as most of it's checks attack on it's special side)

 

[doominic77]

The counter that would first come to my mind would be Starmie.

All calcs using 112 HP EVs and 0 SpA EVs.
Life Orb 252/252 Starmie Ice Beam = 78.1% - 92.3% 1-2HKO with Stealth Rock
Life Orb 252/252 Starmie Psychic = 111.3% - 131.4% 1HKO

Against +2 Prankster CAP 1 (in case CAP 1 gets Amnesia)
Life Orb 252/252 Starmie Ice Beam = 39.1% - 46.4% 2-3HKO with Stealth Rock
Life Orb 252/252 Starmie Psychic = 55.9% - 66.5% 2HKO

This proves two things, 1.) Amnesia on CAP 1 will be extremely OP'd.
2.) Starmie is only a threat if it carries Psychic.

 

[Xiom]

I stongly agree with BugManiacBob about Set-up mons. We don't want common things to just Switch in and set up which would greatly hamper our momentum. They should rather be forced to attack as setting up would be too risky.

I'm fine with For example Reuniclus countering CAP1 aslong it don't get the opertunity to just set up with no risk of it backfiering what so ever but should have to attack it. Dusk brought up a good point that it won't happen with SE moves or Status. But moves like Taunt and Encore Whirlwind still might help in discouraging it to set up and simply check CAP1 by attacking.

 

[noobiess]

jolteon and raikou both have the ability of absorbing thunder wave (if CAP does get that and not the move glare) and then hard hit CAP with a stab thunderbolt/thunder(for the rain dance teams).

gliscor can take any stab move from CAP1, is immume for thunder wave and can hard hit the opponent with stone edge or can fling it's toxic orb towards him. Of course when CAP1 is able to learn ice beam, gliscor is prety much screwed.

Starmie can 1HKO him with psychic and doesne't have to worry about the 2 abilities.
Prankster won't be any problems for him because taunt won't do much and paralyze or toxic starmie doesn't have much effect because starmie can switch so natural cure gets activated.

 

[capefeather]

It's not really helpful to turn this thread into lists of type-counters. Be specific about a threat and explain why we should or shouldn't be able to threaten it.

I can't help but wonder if this was directed at me. I'll admit that my post was largely meant to supplement bugmaniacbob's, highlighting specific categories of defensive Pokémon that I felt needed to beat CAP 1 because I wouldn't want a defensive team to have to bend over backwards just to counter this thing. I also didn't find that much of a point in going into detail (even less now that Rising_Dusk has done it) because I don't really see this CAP getting very many coverage moves in the first place... maybe just Grass Knot and Icy Wind or something. I don't feel as strongly as Rising_Dusk seems to does about Reuniclus beating CAP 1; I just think that it's inevitable no matter what CAP 1 gets.