Pokémon Charizard

[WaterlooZoo]

Sorry guys but Focus Punch seems super gimmicky to me (in fairness, you called it gimmicky yourself).

Focus Blast still hits Heatran harder and hits Tyranitar just as hard in a sandstorm. You'll put a dent in Blissey/Chansey but not nearly enough for a 1HKO.

If you hit Heatran/Tyranitar on the switch-in with Focus Blast, you'll do enough to force them to switch out or get 2HKOed. If you hit them with a Focus Punch on the other hand, you'll still be forced to switch out.

---

Right now I'm convinced that Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Focus Blast/HP Ice should be the standard for ZardY, with Roost an option over HP Ice for some variants that have proper team support.

 

[mrglass]

Sorry guys but Focus Punch seems super gimmicky to me (in fairness, you called it gimmicky yourself).

Focus Blast still hits Heatran harder and hits Tyranitar just as hard in a sandstorm. You'll put a dent in Blissey/Chansey but not nearly enough for a 1HKO.

If you hit Heatran/Tyranitar on the switch-in with Focus Blast, you'll do enough to force them to switch out or get 2HKOed. If you hit them with a Focus Punch on the other hand, you'll still be forced to switch out.

---

Right now I'm convinced that Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Focus Blast/HP Ice should be the standard for ZardY, with Roost an option over HP Ice for some variants that have proper team support.

I do think there is merit to running Dragon Pulse over HP Ice, as it hits Goodra, MegaZard X, and Kingdra for SE. There is also some benefit to Ancient Power for Talonflame, Volcarona, and other MegaZard Y.

I really prefer to stick with Flame Charge in that last spot though.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

I think the best argument for Flame Charge is that ZardY makes a good lead, and Flame Charge can help foil the plans of Focus Sash leads.

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Dragon Pulse can be useful, but I think it's better to be able to 1HKO Garchomp, Salamence, Noivern, Zygarde, Dragonite (after Multiscale), etc. with HP Ice.

ZardY can't really 1HKO any dragons with Dragon Pulse because of the lack of STAB.

---

As far as Ancient Power is concerned - it's not necessary for Volcorana because Fire Blast in the sun does a ton of damage to Volcorana. Talonflame also loses about 2/3rds health from a single Fire Blast.

 

[DaiGuren]

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in Sun: 301-355 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Just sayin.

 

[WaterlooZoo]

252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in Sun: 301-355 (96.7 - 114.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Just sayin.

Yeah exactly, Ancient Power is really only useful for other Talonflame and other ZardY, neither of who can switch into and force ZardY out anyway.

IMO it's much better to be able to 1HKO those dragons I keep bringing up with Hidden Power Ice.

 

[DaiGuren]

Yeah exactly, Ancient Power is really only useful for other Talonflame and other ZardY, neither of who can switch into and force ZardY out anyway.

IMO it's much better to be able to 1HKO those dragons I keep bringing up with Hidden Power Ice.

With a move I suggested! Ha, just kidding. But really, if you have a reliable dragonslayer in your team, HP Ice can be dropped but really, Ancientpower really is only is for the opposing ZardY, which will most probably come in to revenge kill. I don't like to gamble with the 50/50 chance of outspeeding against a Jolly ZardY. If you don't have a reliable Talonflame counter in your team then you might need to rethink your team.

Dragon Pulse has some merit against ZardX and Crit Kingdra. Idk how Kingdra will take a Dragon Pulse but imo, against ZardX, it'll be like the situation against a jolly ZardY, which is a bit risky.

Also, Gliscor is OHKO'd clean by Fire Blast.

 

[TKGriffiths]

Sorry guys but Focus Punch seems super gimmicky to me (in fairness, you called it gimmicky yourself).

Focus Blast still hits Heatran harder and hits Tyranitar just as hard in a sandstorm. You'll put a dent in Blissey/Chansey but not nearly enough for a 1HKO.

If you hit Heatran/Tyranitar on the switch-in with Focus Blast, you'll do enough to force them to switch out or get 2HKOed. If you hit them with a Focus Punch on the other hand, you'll still be forced to switch out.

---

Right now I'm convinced that Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Focus Blast/HP Ice should be the standard for ZardY, with Roost an option over HP Ice for some variants that have proper team support.

Well obviously you don't 1HKO the pink blobs but it's an almost certain 2HKO on Blissey if you follow up with Fire Blast and you can beat Chansey too with good prediction, have a look.

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 442-522 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 184-217 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

That looks like a guaranteed 2HKO after any hazard damage. You can win with good prediction even if you don't manage the 2HKO (see below).

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 324-382 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 145-172 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 32.9% chance to 4HKO

It's not getting past Chansey with a 2HKO but there is a bit of a prediction game here. Charizard can Focus Punch on anything except Seismic Toss for the 2HKO (Softboiled avoids the 2HKO but Focus Punch does more damage than Chansey can heal) and threatens to 2HKO with Fire Blast so it beats Chansey with good prediction since it can only 3HKO back with Seismic Toss.

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's not getting past Heatran, as you say. Does a nice chunk though so Heatran can't switch in again.

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 412-488 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO (It's really less than 47% because of 70% accuracy twice)

This one needs no explanation lol.

As you say it is definitely a gimmick and HP Ice has way more utility but don't dismiss those calcs. :)

 

[DaiGuren]

Why are we comparing Focus Blast and HP ice? Shouldn't we be comparing Focus Blast and Focus Punch??

 

[Karim007]

Mixed Charizard Y?

Lonely
152 ATK 100 SPATK 252 SPEED

EQ
Dragon Pulse
Solar Beam
Flamethrower/Fire Blast

Charizard Y has great physical stat for being a special sweeper (104) and its lack of EQ hurts it against things like Heatran. I think a mixed one would do great, and is definitely gives great coverage. What do you think?

 

[WaterlooZoo]

Well obviously you don't 1HKO the pink blobs but it's an almost certain 2HKO on Blissey if you follow up with Fire Blast and you can beat Chansey too with good prediction, have a look.

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 442-522 (67.7 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey in Sun: 184-217 (28.2 - 33.2%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

That looks like a guaranteed 2HKO after any hazard damage. You can win with good prediction even if you don't manage the 2HKO (see below).

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Chansey: 324-382 (50.4 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Chansey in Sun: 145-172 (22.5 - 26.7%) -- 32.9% chance to 4HKO

It's not getting past Chansey with a 2HKO but there is a bit of a prediction game here. Charizard can Focus Punch on anything except Seismic Toss for the 2HKO (Softboiled avoids the 2HKO but Focus Punch does more damage than Chansey can heal) and threatens to 2HKO with Fire Blast so it beats Chansey with good prediction since it can only 3HKO back with Seismic Toss.

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (55.4 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 214-252 (66.2 - 78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's not getting past Heatran, as you say. Does a nice chunk though so Heatran can't switch in again.

4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 412-488 (101.9 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 Atk Mega Charizard Y Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- 47.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 196-232 (48.5 - 57.4%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO (It's really less than 47% because of 70% accuracy twice)

This one needs no explanation lol.

As you say it is definitely a gimmick and HP Ice has way more utility but don't dismiss those calcs. :)

Focus Punch would be useful against TTar, but as your calcs show Focus Blast will usually take care of it. If the first Focus Blast misses, just switch out. If the first one hits, you probably force your opponent to switch TTar out.

Focus Punch is definitely the superior option against Chansey/Blissey, but that's about the extent of its use. Personally I think you're much better off using something else on your team to get around Chansey/Blissey.

But yeah, we both obviously agree with Fire Blast/Solarbeam/Focus Blast/HP Ice. I think it will become the standard (with Roost as another common option).

Mixed Charizard Y?

Lonely
152 ATK 100 SPATK 252 SPEED

EQ
Dragon Pulse
Solar Beam
Flamethrower/Fire Blast

Charizard Y has great physical stat for being a special sweeper (104) and its lack of EQ hurts it against things like Heatran. I think a mixed one would do great, and is definitely gives great coverage. What do you think?

Not a fan of this at all.

ZardY's best asset by far is it's dominating Special Attack stat (combined with Sun boost). Not maximizing special attack is a huge loss.

Earthquake is completely unnecessary for Heatran because Focus Blast already 2HKOs it (admittedly with shaky Focus Blast accuracy, but a ZardY with Focus Blast beats Heatran every time).

And who besides Heatran are you using Earthquake on?

It's almost certainly not worth losing out on a ton of 1HKO and 2HKOs due to the loss in your special attack.

 

[Toadskii]

I made breakdown of a viable set for Charizard's Mega Evolutions here:

 

[I2edShift]

.... STAB Air Slash is not a good move on Charizard. This is a much better set

Fire Blast/Flamethrower
Solarbeam
Focus Blast
HP Ice/Dragonpulse/Ancientpower/Flare Blitz/Earthquake

Charizard Y doesn't have the bulk to bother with Roost or boosting. Flame Charge is gimmicky and you're better off just going for maximum coverage. Flare Blitz is only for attacking special walls trying to wall you when you have the sun out.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

.... STAB Air Slash is not a good move on Charizard. This is a much better set

Fire Blast/Flamethrower
Solarbeam
Focus Blast
HP Ice/Dragonpulse/Ancientpower/Flare Blitz/Earthquake

Charizard Y doesn't have the bulk to bother with Roost or boosting. Flame Charge is gimmicky and you're better off just going for maximum coverage. Flare Blitz is only for attacking special walls trying to wall you when you have the sun out.

Agreed on the Focus Blast > Air Slash, but Chary's bulk isn't to be dismissed. I love Y's ability to survive a +2 sucker punch and OHKO MegaKhan with Fire Blast. His special defense is high enough that many special attacks fall short of the 2HKO and roost can actually be a viable option. Really, it depends on what your needs are, but I'm enjoying using roost (Really, on the special end, there's not much that you can't just spam fire blast til u win, so too much coverage can be redundant)

 

[DaiGuren]

Agreed on the Focus Blast > Air Slash, but Chary's bulk isn't to be dismissed. I love Y's ability to survive a +2 sucker punch and OHKO MegaKhan with Fire Blast. His special defense is high enough that many special attacks fall short of the 2HKO and roost can actually be a viable option. Really, it depends on what your needs are, but I'm enjoying using roost (Really, on the special end, there's not much that you can't just spam fire blast til u win, so too much coverage can be redundant)

Though I agree with you on ZardY's bulk(I did calcs, ZardY actually survives a specs Hydro Pump from Hasty Keldeo in the sun, like what the heck lol), I can't say the same for ZardY's coverage.

There are some dangerous stuff that can wall ZardY and make him into setup fodder(crit Kingdra, SD Chomp, DDancers, SD Talonflame)

 

[I2edShift]

Agreed on the Focus Blast > Air Slash, but Chary's bulk isn't to be dismissed. I love Y's ability to survive a +2 sucker punch and OHKO MegaKhan with Fire Blast. His special defense is high enough that many special attacks fall short of the 2HKO and roost can actually be a viable option. Really, it depends on what your needs are, but I'm enjoying using roost (Really, on the special end, there's not much that you can't just spam fire blast til u win, so too much coverage can be redundant)

There is no such thing as too much coverage. Redundant coverage is another thing entirely.

ZardY is neutral to water in the sun, so that leaves you with electric and a nasty x4 rock weakness... Sneaky Pebbles is still a thing, and so is Stone Edge, which is on practically every single team. Uninvested 78 HP & 115 SpD is decent, but nothing to write home about. If you don't run HP Ice or Dragon Pulse, every dragon will force you out with ease. Being able to fight back with a 240 BP attack on everything but Goodra (which I'd switch out of anyways on ZardY) and ZardX is a godsend.

You NEED the coverage of Fire Blast, Solarbeam, and Focus Blast. Even with the risks involved in the last two. Your option after that is a physical move (Flare Blitz & Quake), something to keep you from being forked over by dragons, a speed-boosting move, and roost...

Neither Zards bulk is that impressive. It's decent, but it's HP stat is just too low. You're better off blowing as much shit up as possible before you pass out.

 

[mrglass]

There is no such thing as too much coverage. Redundant coverage is another thing entirely.

ZardY is neutral to water in the sun, so that leaves you with electric and a nasty x4 rock weakness... Sneaky Pebbles is still a thing, and so is Stone Edge, which is on practically every single team. Uninvested 78 HP & 115 SpD is decent, but nothing to write home about. If you don't run HP Ice or Dragon Pulse, every dragon will force you out with ease. Being able to fight back with a 240 BP attack on everything but Goodra (which I'd switch out of anyways on ZardY) is a godsend.

You NEED the coverage of Fire Blast, Solarbeam, and Focus Blast. Even with the risks involved in the last two. Your option after that is a physical move, something to keep you from being forked over by dragons, a speed-boosting move, and roost...

Neither Zards bulk is that impressive. It's decent, but it's HP stat is just too low. You're better off blowing as much shit up as possible before you pass out.

The trick with Zard Y is that you need to look for coverage 4X or more as effective as Fire Blast against the Pokemon you want to hit. Otherwise, Fire Blast outpowers it. That's why Dragon Pulse is a superior option to Air Slash. While Air Slash provides additional coverage to only a select few pokemon, Dragon Pulse hits nearly all Dragon types 4X as effectively as Fire Blast. I feel SolarBeam is a must, but I do think it's a coin toss between Focus Blast and Dragon Pulse/HP Ice. Running Focus Blast allows you to OHKO T-Tar and Heatran, which completely wall you otherwise, but the latter allows you to hit Dragon types, which also tend to completely wall you.

I disagree about Zard Y's bulk. I'd say base 78 HP is better than most offensive sweepers and wallbreakers, and base 115 Sp.Def is huge, because it allows Zard Y to take an electric attack to the face (as well as handily nerfing Thunder).

 

[Jaguar360]

I think Earthquake is probably best in the final slot. You're able to fit Fire-types that aren't part Flying, which is especially helpful for dealing with things like Chandelure. You also hit Heatran, Mega Charizard X, Mega Houndoom, and Mega Ampharos for super-effective damage. Focus Blast is also good too since you still hit Heatran, Tyranitar, Houndoom, Tyrantrum and others quite hard, but you get completely walled by Chandelure and opposing Fire/Flyings. Focus Blast also has poor accuracy, but at least you have the freedom to run Timid or Modest with it. The sets I use are below:

Charizard @ Charizardite Y (Mixed)
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Flamethrower
- Solar Beam
- Roost
- Earthquake

Charizard @ Charizardite Y (Special Sweeper)
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Solar Beam
- Flamethrower
- Focus Blast
- Roost

 

[DaiGuren]

Imo I'd rather have Ttar/Heatran force me out than, say, Garchomp/Zygarde/ZardX/insert DDancer here.

The best Ttar can do is set-up SR and Heatran will prolly use Toxic/SR. While giving those^ mons a chance to set-up will most probabaly cause you a ton of damage and nab you the momentum.

Unless of course you have a fairy that will wall them DDancers.

 

[mrglass]

Does anyone else see similarities between MegaZard Y and Reshiram, and MegaZard X and Zekrom? Both have frighteningly high attack power, with strong mixed wallbreaking potential, while having mediocre speed to compensate for.

 

[TheUltimateStorm]

Does anyone else see similarities between MegaZard Y and Reshiram, and MegaZard X and Zekrom? Both have frighteningly high attack power, with strong mixed wallbreaking potential, while having mediocre speed to compensate for.

Still, Base 100 Speed is better then Base 90, also, none of the Unova legends get Dragon Dance to patch it up while giving them more killing power, or Drought to boost their power own their own without relying on other teammates to bring in the sun for them.

 

[mrglass]

Still, Base 100 Speed is better then Base 90, also, none of the Unova legends get Dragon Dance to patch it up while giving them more killing power, or Drought to boost their power own their own without relying on other teammates to bring in the sun for them.

True, I'm just saying I see similar roles as powerful wallbreakers that can switch to sweeping with a speed boost.

 

[farranpoison]

If your run Flamethrower over Fire Blast on Megazard Y, what vital OHKOs or 2HKOs do you miss?

 

[GoliathGarchomp]

Has anyone tried Belly Drum ZardX? Seems like it could work but would be fairly gimmicky.

Charizard @ Charizardite X
Ability: Blaze/Solar Power >> Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Jolly/Adamant Nature
- Belly Drum
- Flame Charge
- Dragon Claw/Outrage
- Roost/Earthquake/Thunder Punch

Like I said seems gimmicky but I can see it defiantly working with Zard and XZards useful resistance. He can get a free Belly Drum on anything that's locked into a Ground, Fire, Grass move and most Pokémon locked into a Bug, Electric, Fairy, Steel moves. He also has decent enough Bulk on the physical end to try set up on few things.

 

[gabric]

i just hatched a timid solar power shiny charmander just missing atk and def ivs. i havent checked the def iv but whatever. anyway it has dragon dance and dragon pulse egg moves. any ideas on a moveset and team mates?

 

[LoDart210]

Hey guys, I was wondering if it's worth running a speed boosting nature on Yzard? I very much enjoy the increased power I get from running Mild (because I go mixed for Blissey) which helps for nuking and wallbreaking.

Is there anything relevant I'd be outspeeding (that I care about outspeeding) with a +speed nature? Any and all advice is appreciated!