Clear Skies Tier: Your impressions

[Aldaron]

OK, acknowledging those points, again, why mention only the banning of Deoxys-S as a differentiation from bw ou, and not the unbanning of Exca / chomp / manaphy / thund?

If we're giving 100% strength to the "even you, the person who set up the ladder should adhere to the lack of experience issue" then I should definitely reban those 4 (assuming the purpose of this ladder is OU experimentation, which I haven't even said yet).

However, if you want to pick and choose and say it is ok to unban without experience, then I am going to say it is ok for me to listen a lot of people I respect in #dreamworld and ban 1 pokemon without that same experience.

So what's it going to be, either unbanning chomp / exca / thund / manaphy and banning deoxys-s, or unbanning deoxys-s and banning chomp / exca / thund / manaphy? It's going to be one or the other to start, assuming the purpose of this ladder is to actually experiment on our current ou and not simply look at another iteration of a potentially balanced ou.

 

[skitz0phrenic]

Why should those 4 be banned here? They are all objectively overpowered in weather (with the exception of Thund obviously), and that doesn't exist here. Without it they are universally accepted as balanced, or at the worst extreme manageable without a negative impact.

Realistically nothing that isn't Uber or objectively broken in or out of weather like Blaziken should be banned initially. Exca/Chomp/Manaphy/Thund/Deoxy-S all fall under that criteria.

Aldaron, you're really giving the impression that you and your buddies are just making up rules for this tier on a whim. I know (at least I hope so) that this isn't the case, but it is very much the impression you are giving.

 

[Thorhammer]

I didn't mention that because testing those two back in OU is a logical progression of testing the clear skies metagame, without the weather that got those two banned. Now, if you were refusing to ever consider banning Manaphy, I would be complaining. Unlike when I was first posting here, it's now clear that you're willing to consider possibilities of unbanning Deoxys-S, but the possibility of banning Manaphy is one that can be reached far more easily from the current state of CS OU than the possibility of unbanning Deoxys-S, since the current state of CS OU allows people to find out if Manaphy is broken while playing in the main metagame, while it does not allow people to find out if Deoxys-S is not broken while playing in the main metagame.

 

[Aldaron]

Obligatory pedantic "but how do you KNOW that weather is what made them broken?"

Nothing you say in response makes it "objective." You're just assuming that the sand veil in sand factor for Garchomp, the Thunder in rain factor for Thundurus, the STAB rain + hydration factor for manaphy, and the sand rush in sand factor for Excadrill made them broken in the weather metagame, and not that they were simply additional factors in already broken pokemon. Ignoring that Excadrill is obviously broken only due to the Sand Rush in sand, I have heard PLENTY of arguments saying that Garchomp was broken in spite of sand, Thundurus is broken even if it chooses Thunderbolt, and Manaphy was broken regardless of rain.

The bottom line is that you want me to accept that the weather additions for those 4 pokemon is what made them broken...which is fine UNLESS you complain about me banning deoxys-s, because I'm using the same concept of theorymon to ban it as I am using to unban those.

The reason I am hesitant to unban Deoxys-S is because with the initial conversations I have had, I've come under the impression that IF clear skies were a really active ladder, it being broken would be obvious. But because it will see minor activity, its brokenness will not be apparent, and people will take this lack of data to be evidence to keep it in the tier, and this will mess up future tournaments that will use the ladder's ruleset (yes, there is a clear skies tournament with this ladder's ruleset in mind for the near future).

If I can be assured that this ladder will be active enough to ensure a proper test on Deoxys-S, I can consider unbanning it but I really don't want to unban it just to satisfy the "ban less" propagandists and only find out later that the ladder is basically inactive and we don't have enough evidence to ban it.

I have to consider practical issues like tournament rulesets and viability of activity when making decisions like these.

 

[Thorhammer]

Obligatory pedantic "but how do you KNOW that weather is what made them broken?"

Nothing you say in response makes it "objective." You're just assuming that the sand veil in sand factor for Garchomp, the Thunder in rain factor for Thundurus, the STAB rain + hydration factor for manaphy, and the sand rush in sand factor for Excadrill made them broken in the weather metagame, and not that they were simply additional factors in already broken pokemon. Ignoring that Excadrill is obviously only due to the Sand Rush in sand, I ave heard PLENTY of arguments saying that Garchomp was broken in spite of sand, Thundurus is broken even if it chooses Thunderbolt, and Manaphy was broken regardless of rain.

The bottom line is that you want me to accept that the weather additions for those 4 pokemon is what made them broken...which is fine UNLESS you complain about me banning deoxys-s, because I'm using the same concept of theorymon to ban it as I am using to unban those.

We don't know. That's why we want to find out, not assume, and not assuming means not banning initially.

Advocating not banning those two doesn't mean we're saying they aren't broken; it means we're saying we don't know whether or not they're broken and that we should find out and maybe ban them if they turn out to be broken, but not before then.

 

[Aldaron]

Just to clarify, which two are you referring to? Excadrill and Thundurus?

 

[Thorhammer]

Just to clarify, which two are you referring to? Excadrill and Thundurus?

I'm referring to Garchomp and Manaphy, the two that are actually banned in BW OU at present. Excadrill and Thundurus are not banned in BW OU at present, so them being allowed in CS OU, at least to start, is a perfectly logical progression from BW OU, so I don't believe there's anything to dispute about them.

 

[Aldaron]

Atm yea, I guess I could have waited for this round's results.

Let's step back for a moment and assume that thundurus will get a simple majority (banning it) and excadrill will get a super majority (banning it).

Let's also assume I take down this ladder until those results come in.

Assuming those two assumptions, how would you prefer I precede with deoxys-s / garchomp / manaphy / excadrill / thundurus / blaziken / bright powder / whatever other suspects?

 

[Aeromence]

omg, Deo-s would dominate in this tier. Hyper offence would smash everything with a Deo-S lead. Aldaron made a good decision, and those that want to test Deo-S in this tier just want to abuse a +6 Manaphy under Dual Screens.

Soon everyone will want Skymin and Darkrai to be tested here. Let Aldaron do what he wants with this.

 

[skitz0phrenic]

omg, Deo-s would dominate in this tier. Hyper offence would smash everything with a Deo-S lead. Aldaron made a good decision, and those that want to test Deo-S in this tier just want to abuse a +6 Manaphy under Dual Screens.

Soon everyone will want Skymin and Darkrai to be tested here. Let Aldaron do what he wants with this.

Skymin and Darkrai are obvious Ubers.

Deoxys-S isn't even banned in BW OU and likely won't be...because it's manageable and doesn't negatively impact the game.

Get out of here with that exaggerated nonsense. Not wanting Deoxys-S banned (especially without testing) when he isn't banned anywhere else is completely reasonable.

 

[Thorhammer]

Atm yea, I guess I could have waited for this round's results.

Let's step back for a moment and assume that thundurus will get a simple majority (banning it) and excadrill will get a super majority (banning it).

Let's also assume I take down this ladder until those results come in.

Assuming those two assumptions, how would you prefer I precede with deoxys-s / garchomp / manaphy / excadrill / thundurus / blaziken / bright powder / whatever other suspects?

My suggestion is simply to try out the tier Deoxys-S, Garchomp, Manaphy, Excadrill, and Thundurus unbanned, then if people complain about any of them, consider banning them. That suggestion isn't changed by the fate of Excadrill and Thundurus either way. As I said, there's not much to discuss, although I realize that I may have acted as if I felt otherwise.

I'm neutral about Blaziken and Brightpowder. Weather may have factored into Blaziken's ban, but it was still powerful enough that I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that it's not worth the time of bothering with it, at least here. Brightpowder is really just about personal views on Evasion in general. I do have feelings about what would be ideal on both matters, but for a metagame like this, I think it's fine if you act according to your own discretion here.

omg, Deo-s would dominate in this tier. Hyper offence would smash everything with a Deo-S lead. Aldaron made a good decision, and those that want to test Deo-S in this tier just want to abuse a +6 Manaphy under Dual Screens.

Soon everyone will want Skymin and Darkrai to be tested here. Let Aldaron do what he wants with this.

Deoxys-S is the best Dual Screener, not the only Dual Screener. If Manaphy turns out to be broken under Dual Screens, ban Manaphy.

 

[Pocket]

Well, Aldaron, my post on page 1 reflects my view on the ban on Deoxys-S. I'll just copy-paste it here:

Thanks AfroThunderRule and Jibaku for the confirmation. I'm also not getting the ban on Deoxys-S. Lead Spikes + SR doesn't lay down Spikes any better than Ferrothorn, etc, and if you have a Rapid Spinner, it's easy to spin them off after killing Deoxys-S. Dual Screen can be easily replaced with another mon.

The late-game sweeper Deoxys may be powerful, but there should be at least one mon in your team that can take a hit / take it down with priority. Don't know how the lack of Sand Rush / Chlorophyll mons make a difference in dispatching Deoxys-S, since the majority of the teams in BW OU lack these weather abusers. Team Preview also helps.

The reason I am hesitant to unban Deoxys-S is because with the initial conversations I have had, I've come under the impression that IF clear skies were a really active ladder, it being broken would be obvious. But because it will see minor activity, its brokenness will not be apparent, and people will take this lack of data to be evidence to keep it in the tier, and this will mess up future tournaments that will use the ladder's ruleset (yes, there is a clear skies tournament with this ladder's ruleset in mind for the near future).

If I can be assured that this ladder will be active enough to ensure a proper test on Deoxys-S, I can consider unbanning it but I really don't want to unban it just to satisfy the "ban less" propagandists and only find out later that the ladder is basically inactive and we don't have enough evidence to ban it.

I have to consider practical issues like tournament rulesets and viability of activity when making decisions like these.

What about using the tournament matches to decide on the brokenness of Deoxys-S? Players would be required to send you the replays / logs of their matches.

omg, Deo-s would dominate in this tier. Hyper offence would smash everything with a Deo-S lead. Aldaron made a good decision, and those that want to test Deo-S in this tier just want to abuse a +6 Manaphy under Dual Screens.

Lol, removing Deoxys-S wont stop people from using Dual Screen Espeon or any other Dual Screener to set up their Sweepers / Smash Passers.

 

[Katakiri]

Well absolutely no one's on this tier right now (because it's late right now) my opinion on the entire matter is:
"Create Clear Skies tier. Don't update Healing Wish. Screw you."
Version 1.0.30 came out over a month ago. Blizzard patches more frequently than Smogon.

I love that Weather-less OU exists though. Can't wait to play it! I can finally run traditional Sunny Day without having to use that extremely mediocre Pokemon; Ninetales'.

Oh wow I just realized that with Tyranitar entirely banned from this tier, Latios is gonna go entirely unchecked minus CB Pursuit Snorlax, Metagross, and maybe Scizor. That'll be interesting to see. Oh well I run CB Snorlax anyway. :3

 

[Aldaron]

My suggestion is simply to try out the tier Deoxys-S, Garchomp, Manaphy, Excadrill, and Thundurus unbanned, then if people complain about any of them, consider banning them. That suggestion isn't changed by the fate of Excadrill and Thundurus either way. As I said, there's not much to discuss, although I realize that I may have acted as if I felt otherwise.

I'm neutral about Blaziken and Brightpowder. Weather may have factored into Blaziken's ban, but it was still powerful enough that I think it's perfectly reasonable to say that it's not worth the time of bothering with it, at least here. Brightpowder is really just about personal views on Evasion in general. I do have feelings about what would be ideal on both matters, but for a metagame like this, I think it's fine if you act according to your own discretion here.


Deoxys-S is the best Dual Screener, not the only Dual Screener. If Manaphy turns out to be broken under Dual Screens, ban Manaphy.

So what you want is not like you previously stated. You previously stated you

"All in favor of a Clear Skies tier that actually has something decently resembling suspect testing rather than authoritarian declarations?"

This quote is important because it is important to realize that smogon in general is NOT having anymore suspect testing; BW OU won't be determined by suspect testing as you know, and therefore side tiers will not either.

and

"This tier would be an interesting experiment if it was simply BW OU without weather and the assumed results of that. If the tier really bans Deoxys-S, however, it has overstepped those bounds and lost that purpose."

This quote is interesting because you just said you want to keep deoxys-s unbanned, which would be "simply bw ou without weather," but then you also state you want excadrill / thundurus / garchomp / manaphy unbanned, which, as i stated for one of my previous assumptions, is not bw ou without weather.

Am I to take it that you no longer desire "simply bw ou without weather"

 

[dragonboy52]

Isn't Snover, Vulpix and the Hippo's banned?

 

[shrang]

Ban List:

Same as the OU ban list with the following exceptions:

- Tyranitar, Nintetales, Politoed and Abamasnow are banned.

- Garchomp, Manaphy unbanned.

- Deo-S is banned.

- Rain Dance, Sunny Day, Hail and Sand Storm are allowed.

What about Hippowdon, Hippopotas, Snover, and Vulpix?

EDIT: Damn it ninja'd

 

[Every1XplodeNOW]

Just to clarify, it seems like we forgot to ban the pre-evos, so if you see anyone on this ladder using the pre-evo pokemon with the weather inducing abilities, please contact a mod and get the abuser banned.

There you go, I'm guessing they also forgot to ban Hippowdon too.

And lol at Vulpix, Snover, and Hippopotas being "Uber" in this tier.

 

[X5Dragon]

I'll update the ban list now with Aldaron's input, thanks Ald.

Edit: Update complete.

 

[Thorhammer]

So what you want is not like you previously stated. You previously stated you



This quote is important because it is important to realize that smogon in general is NOT having anymore suspect testing; BW OU won't be determined by suspect testing as you know, and therefore side tiers will not either.

and



This quote is interesting because you just said you want to keep deoxys-s unbanned, which would be "simply bw ou without weather," but then you also state you want excadrill / thundurus / garchomp / manaphy unbanned, which, as i stated for one of my previous assumptions, is not bw ou without weather.

Am I to take it that you no longer desire "simply bw ou without weather"

I've softened my stance since my second post here, the first one you quoted. That said, as it's now clear that you're willing to update the ban list based on player input, I would say that could be considered to "decently resemble suspect testing".

In my first post, I seem to have left out a few key words, and I apologize for any misunderstanding from them. I meant that it needs to start from where BW OU would be without weather. If weather was banned in BW OU, Garchomp and Manaphy would indisputably have to be immediately retested, so it logically follows. (The same would go for Excadrill and Thundurus were they to be banned, although I'm sure few would question Excadrill's OU status without permanent weather.) Now, if starting from that baseline of banning all permanent weather and unbanning Garchomp and Manaphy, and allowing people to play in the metagame for at least a couple of weeks, you receive player reports that cause you to feel that Deoxys-S (or anything else) is broken in the new metagame and decide to ban it, then I would not oppose your decision, as rather than an incorrect starting point, it would be the first thing demonstrated by the Clear Skies experiment: in a weatherless metagame, Deoxys-S (or whatever else) becomes/remains broken. It wouldn't necessarily prove the point, but it would still be evidence gathered from the experiment and worth considering.

Aside from changes based on how you've said you would handle bans and unbans, this has been my standpoint from the start: that it could be reasonable to ban Deoxys-S and the others, just not immediately. If this whole misunderstanding is just because I failed to make that clear in my first post, then I apologize.

 

[Matthew]

Any more arguing with how Aldaron is running the tier will be infracted, simply put. Smogon does not recognize the Clear Skies metagame, and because of that Aldaron is allowed to have the type of control over the tier he does.

So more posts calling each other out = infractions / deleted posts

 

[IcyMan28]

I'm really glad Aldaron went ahead and did this of his own will. In addition to being a fun metagame, it will be interesting to see how it compares to standard OU. Not having to worry about rain and whatnot will be nice as well. As a sidenote, a sandstorm-less metagame hasn't really been around since RS were released, so I'm curious to see what that will do.

 

[asdfrozen]

I was going to make a HO Rain and HO weatherless team, but then I saw that Deoxys-S was banned :O. There goes my Rain Dancer AND my anti-lead/setup.

But anyway, I'm interested in how HO will do here.

 

[tomtom5858]

I was going to make a HO Rain and HO weatherless team, but then I saw that Deoxys-S was banned :O. There goes my Rain Dancer AND my anti-lead/setup.

Use Electrode :)

 

[Aldaron]

Deoxys-S unbanned. Vulpix / Hippopotas / Snover banned.

To clarify, this means Clear Skies differs from ou in that it bans the weathers, and unbans Garchomp / Manaphy (and depending on the results of this suspect round, unbans Excadrill / Thundurus).

 

[Pocket]

TYVM, Aldaron!