Serious Conscience in the workplace.

Do employEEs deserve legal protection for their religious beliefs, and conscience?


  • Total voters
    53

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Anyone who thinks they should be paid for refusing to do their job is a straight up moron. If you can work it out with your employer, good on you; otherwise, tough

The problem is with employers exercising religious beliefs, since they get to decide what "their job" is in the first place. I think that in those cases (such as the bed and breakfast) they should be given substantial leeway, as it is their place to determine their job.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
Absolutely wrong, ESPECIALLY in the case of doctors (and lawyers, and financial advisers). It is exactly this thinking that caused the recent death of a woman in Ireland because her Catholic doctor refused to perform an abortion to save her life.

See, the roles of doctor, lawyer etc. are fiduciaries - the interests of their clients come before their own by the very definition of the career. If you are not comfortable setting your beliefs aside in favour of the interests of your client YOU CANNOT BE A FIDUCIARY.

That's just that. If your religious convictions will interfere with you making the best decisions for a patients life or well being, then don't be a fucking doctor, be a priest.
What do you think about doctors who oppose male and female circumcision? Should they be required to circumcise children for parents who ask, even though they oppose that procedure? What do you think about psychiatrist who oppose repairative therapy? When a patient asks them to provide such therapy, should they be forced to ignore their convictions and provide said therapy? What about OBs who disagree with certain prenatal treatment and procedures? My wife wanted a certain treatment for our youngest, but her OB refused. Should she have consented? What do you think about Indian dermatologists who oppose skin lightening procedures because they feel they continue age old racial stereotypes in Indian society? Should they ignore their conscience and consent?
Also I'm not sure if you're serious about that article from "The Onion"... but that "news" site is a pretty obvious parody news site.....
shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
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But what if you've got a doctor who doesn't wish to perform abortions? If the doctor is opposed to it for religious or consciental reasons then he shouldn't be forced to perform it. He can still be useful for other operations or treatments. It is hardly 'dumb' for someone to not do something that's against their beliefs. I appreciate there are problems if, as you say, things like morning after pills are refused outright, but surely there would be another pharmacist who could provide them? (In a similar way the Muslims barbers tried to get in another man to cut the woman's hair in the third link).
But I thought performing abortions was part of the doctor's job? Like how providing the morning-after pill is your pharmacist's job. When your religious beliefs interfere with your job, something's up.

Let me use myself as an example. Do you know what asthma is? Well, I have asthma. So, I need asthma medication, right? Well, let's say my pharmacist is that Christian Science guy and won't give me my asthma medication because he objects to the use of medicine. Well, if I don't have any asthma medication, I could die if I get an asthma attack. Is that worth having some asshole work at a job that conflicts with his religious beliefs? Hell no! If you object to the use of medicine, don't work at a pharmacy. If your job involves having to give women abortions and you object to abortions, don't take that job. And if it's something like penecostals needing to wear a skirt to work which normally violates the dress code... Bring it up with your employer first. Is that so hard?
 
What do you think about doctors who oppose male and female circumcision? Should they be required to circumcise children for parents who ask, even though they oppose that procedure? What do you think about psychiatrist who oppose repairative therapy? When a patient asks them to provide such therapy, should they be forced to ignore their convictions and provide said therapy? What about OBs who disagree with certain prenatal treatment and procedures? My wife wanted a certain treatment for our youngest, but her OB refused. Should she have consented?
I think you might be sliding into irrelevant territory there. Female circumsision (it really shouldn't be compared to circumsision at all, they're not at all similar) and reparative therapy have (to the best of my knowledge) no medical benefits, and are often incredibly destructive for the patients involved. It would be better compared to a parent coming in and asking for a doctor to remove a child's fingers, I think. Are we going to argue for that? Will that kid be bettered in some way by having no clitoris/labia, or will the adult from being put through therapy that has been shown time and time again to not really work?

Actual circumsision though... bit harder to argue against along those lines. It has some medical benefits, along with drawbacks if the surgery goes wrong (granted, I believe that's far less common nowadays). I suspect it comes down to whether the benefits for the patient (not the parents) outweigh the drawbacks, since doctors are supposed to be working to benefit the patient. I have a feeling that those benefits don't outweigh the negatives in developed countries.

Regardless, it probably is best if doctors who are morally opposed to it don't actually perform the surgery... mostly because they would be more likely to fuck things up due to stressing out about the whole thing because of their feelings on the issue.
 
But I thought performing abortions was part of the doctor's job? Like how providing the morning-after pill is your pharmacist's job. When your religious beliefs interfere with your job, something's up.

Let me use myself as an example. Do you know what asthma is? Well, I have asthma. So, I need asthma medication, right? Well, let's say my pharmacist is that Christian Science guy and won't give me my asthma medication because he objects to the use of medicine. Well, if I don't have any asthma medication, I could die if I get an asthma attack. Is that worth having some asshole work at a job that conflicts with his religious beliefs? Hell no! If you object to the use of medicine, don't work at a pharmacy. If your job involves having to give women abortions and you object to abortions, don't take that job. And if it's something like penecostals needing to wear a skirt to work which normally violates the dress code... Bring it up with your employer first. Is that so hard?
You're mistaking a morality issue for a religious issue. The point of this thread is to discuss whether a worker has protection from their workplace for refusing to do something they consider immoral.

Christians consider abortion to be essentially the same as murder. Asking a devout Christian doctor to perform an abortion is basically asking them to assist in murder. Should the government really force the doctor to assist in something they consider to be murder? Likewise, your analogy makes no sense. Unless you were the third antichrist or something, I highly doubt any religious pharmacist would consider it immoral to give you your prescribed asthma medication.


I basically agree with billymills, I would not approve of government protection for most of the news articles listed on this page, but there are certainly instances where I would be in favor of legal protection. I do think private businesses deserve some degree of freedom, like a small town pharmacy deciding not to stock a morning-after pill due to the owner's morals. I feel like workers in the public sector, like an ER doctor, have an obligation to perform emergency abortions in case of danger to the mother.
 
People should do their jobs or complain/campaign to change laws that are unethical. A Muslim girl working for a liquor shop is Haram to begin with, any money should would have earned wouldn't be sanctioned in hers and my religion period let alone the obvious dumb idea of her complaining about it.

On the other hand if she decides to wear a Hijab in another situation like a cashier and the employer has a sudden "dress code alert" pop up then yes she should sue his or her's ass to the ground.

Rules are there to protect not to persecute.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
I know very little about Islam. By "haram", are you saying that generally, a conservative Muslim ought to not be working at a liquor shop to begin with? What about the one story in the OP of a girl working at a supermarket that happens to have sold liquor as well as many other goods? Should a conservative Muslim know to not work at a place like that as well? I know there are many different kinds of Islam, and many different interpretations of the Koran. But as a general rule, should working at a supermarket, that they ought to know contains items that they dislike, be avoided?
 
Oh OK yes Haram means forbidden in Islam, drinking liqour and selling it isn't permissible and any money should would earned from it wouldn't be pure.
That's concerning a liqour store or a butcher shop.

For something like Walmart it becomes trickier as you know with different jobs and different scholarly views. Some say it is OK if your jobs avoids handling or stacking the stuff otherwise say avoid these jobs.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
You're mistaking a morality issue for a religious issue. The point of this thread is to discuss whether a worker has protection from their workplace for refusing to do something they consider immoral.

Christians consider abortion to be essentially the same as murder. Asking a devout Christian doctor to perform an abortion is basically asking them to assist in murder. Should the government really force the doctor to assist in something they consider to be murder? Likewise, your analogy makes no sense. Unless you were the third antichrist or something, I highly doubt any religious pharmacist would consider it immoral to give you your prescribed asthma medication.


I basically agree with billymills, I would not approve of government protection for most of the news articles listed on this page, but there are certainly instances where I would be in favor of legal protection. I do think private businesses deserve some degree of freedom, like a small town pharmacy deciding not to stock a morning-after pill due to the owner's morals. I feel like workers in the public sector, like an ER doctor, have an obligation to perform emergency abortions in case of danger to the mother.
You completely missed my point. I'm well aware Christians consider abortion to be the same as murder. So, why are they becoming doctors or whatever, where they'd probably end up having to perform abortions? It just doesn't sit well with me. And if you are a devout Christian doctor and you need to perform an abortion.... I see nothing wrong with just dealing with it. Patients before morals.

Also, I thought women used pharmacies to get their birth control? So, what happens when their pharmacist chooses to stop selling birth control pills or the morning-after pill because they have a moral objection? Well, I could see a bunch of people being pretty pissed.
 

vonFiedler

I Like Chopin
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You do know there are lots of different kinds of doctors right? Most people who walk into med school probably aren't going to be performing abortions.
 
Look I know you have to come work at that particular place which primary service/product wasn't something you object to, and I'm sure any Muslim who winds up at a similar place would have similar heart aches. But you did your job honorably and left him in a decent manner, your course of action was the right one, work there until I don't need to anymore.

The boss however should have counted himself lucky for not being sued by breaching his contract or state laws.

On subject it's really a country thing but assuming the US which I'm familiar with Business have rights to sell whatever they want and employees have rights to practice whatever they want. A conservative Muslim can't walk into a butcher and demand that they stop pork, he's allowed to by law. Similarly I don't think the employee at another situation should deny a Muslim to take a five minute break and perform his prayers. You can extend that example to other religions as well.
 
You completely missed my point. I'm well aware Christians consider abortion to be the same as murder. So, why are they becoming doctors or whatever, where they'd probably end up having to perform abortions? It just doesn't sit well with me.
Believe it or not, not all doctors perform abortions. Almost all of them undergo voluntary training (that is, they CHOOSE to undergo abortion training), and it is a rarity that someone who is not pro-choice performs an abortion. Really, the only issue is in an emergency situation; aside from those, there are no situations where a doctor "needs" to perform an abortion.

And if you are a devout Christian doctor and you need to perform an abortion.... I see nothing wrong with just dealing with it. Patients before morals.
That statement sounds incredibly ignorant. Regardless of what YOU think, what THEY think is that abortion is murder. What it sounds like to them is "I see no reason why you can't just man up and murder that baby."


Also, I thought women used pharmacies to get their birth control? So, what happens when their pharmacist chooses to stop selling birth control pills or the morning-after pill because they have a moral objection? Well, I could see a bunch of people being pretty pissed.
The women give their business to a pharmacy that stocks birth control. That's the magic of a free market. I'm not positive if the recent birth control mandate has forced pharmacies to stock it, so it might be a moot point.
 
I don't exactly know how mattj (or anyone) for "conscience in the workplace" can really expect governmental protection on ideals. Religious observance can be faked. The religion observed could be retarded. Beliefs can be changed with the times. I don't expect any degree of religious compliance from private organizations. If it's harmless, like the skirt, I think the workplace shouldn't be an asshole about it...but I don't think it should be REQUIRED. I don't really know how the law works regarding said religious protections, or specifications of it to account for the questions I listed above. But I really think protections for internal things (like beliefs and values as opposed to physical characteristics)...should not happen.
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
As for me personally, at this point in time I'm not at all certain that the government should require businesses to accommodate their employees' religious objections. I'm pretty happy with the way it is right now, accommodations are mandated so long as they don't cause an "undue" burden to the business, with "undue" being decided by the courts on an individual basis. But because I believe that businesses should pretty much be able to do whatever they please, I'm not even sure that such accommodation ought to be mandated.

I'd love it if every single conviction of mine was protected, but I realize that's ridiculously impractical. No one would be able to do business because everyone has some objection to something.

I'm still thinking it over really, and asking open ended questions.
 
MrIndigo, what you say is false. The girl died because abortion is outlawed in Ireland entirely. The doctor couldn't legally have performed an abortion even if he had wanted to.
Just to clarify, that's not entirely right. Medical terminations have been carried out in Ireland where the woman's life was in danger because of the pregnancy (X case). That ruling has been used as grounds for other terminations since, but I'm not sure if it's been codified into law yet or the constitution has been amended or whatever actually needs to be done.

More on topic, I don't feel that religious or moral beliefs should be protected by a government. It should be left up to the employers' discretion whether they will make any accommodations.
 
I'm not sure if this relates to mattj's original question, but I do think it's interesting.

At the grocery store I work at, I was watching these training videos, and one of them was about service animals. In the video, it stated that we can't refuse to assist someone with a service animal even if you have an allergy or a fear towards that animal. So essentially my employer could fire someone for having a medical condition.

I can see having a fear, but since I refuse to go with in 20 ft. of a garden gnome, I can't say much, but what if someone has life threatening allergy towards that animal? Should they just suck it up and do it anyway?
 

Layell

Alas poor Yorick!
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I do not believe there are any life threatening allergies towards domesticated animals. In terms of animal allergies I apparently had one and I've owned a dog for 12 years. Allergies are temporary, the need for service animals is much more important.

I can understand if someone has a fear of dogs, but service animals are the type of animal you should be least afraid of these are mostly hypothetical.
 
Animal allergies can cause asthma attacks in certain people, so they can be serious. Also, I'm not saying we should get rid of service animals, but I think if someone is allergic or has a fear of them, I think they should be able to refuse to assist them if it would cause them harm.

To people who fear dogs, it doesn't matter if it is service dog, it scares them. One of my mom's friends is scared of birds, and it doesn't matter what type of bird it is.
 
What do you think about doctors who oppose male and female circumcision? Should they be required to circumcise children for parents who ask, even though they oppose that procedure? What do you think about psychiatrist who oppose repairative therapy? When a patient asks them to provide such therapy, should they be forced to ignore their convictions and provide said therapy? What about OBs who disagree with certain prenatal treatment and procedures? My wife wanted a certain treatment for our youngest, but her OB refused. Should she have consented? What do you think about Indian dermatologists who oppose skin lightening procedures because they feel they continue age old racial stereotypes in Indian society? Should they ignore their conscience and consent?shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
If they work for a 100% private company and that company stands by their decision, then I have no issue with any of this. If, however, the individual works for an employer that does not stand by their decision they should be fired for failing to do their job.

These people are not slaves, they do not have to work at these places if they don't like them, if you can't do your job for whatever reason it's time to get a different job.
 

Nastyjungle

JACKED and sassy
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yeah just going to quickly say for something like a service dog, you don't go

"oh you've got a service dog I can't serve you because I'm allergic/scared"

you go

"oh you've got a service dog, let me go get another employee because I'm allergic/scared"

this is a pretty asinine scenario
 
So yeah, I decided to do some research (aka google it) and I guess I misunderstood it or the video didn't make it clear(probably the former), but it just says you can't refuse to help them, as in the place of business can't. Here's the link if anyone cares and sorry for being stupid, I'll shut up now. :x
 
What do you think about doctors who oppose male and female circumcision? Should they be required to circumcise children for parents who ask, even though they oppose that procedure? What do you think about psychiatrist who oppose repairative therapy? When a patient asks them to provide such therapy, should they be forced to ignore their convictions and provide said therapy? What about OBs who disagree with certain prenatal treatment and procedures? My wife wanted a certain treatment for our youngest, but her OB refused. Should she have consented? What do you think about Indian dermatologists who oppose skin lightening procedures because they feel they continue age old racial stereotypes in Indian society? Should they ignore their conscience and consent?shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I would say there's a difference between circumcision and other operations, since in most cases circumcision is not performed for medical reasons; Similarly for other cosmetic as opposed to medical operations.

It's also debatable that circumcision would be in the best interests of the patient, given it has no clear medical efficacy.

Also, the issue with fiduciaries is more concerned with protecting the beneficiary from the fiduciaries power, not protecting the fiduciary from the wishes of the beneficiary. It's the doctor that has the actual power in the doctor-patient relationship, so the legal obligation is imposed on the doctor to use that power appropriately.

Keep in mind also, "best interests of the patient" aren't necessarily what the patient says they want. That being said, fiduciaries can get out of harm's way by showing their principal has given informed consent.

So, for example, a trustee of someone's inheritance might be told "I want you to invest in my friend's company, so do it!". The trustee, in their experience and wisdom, knows the friend's company is high risk, low reward; the trustee would have to explain clearly and in detail why investing the inheritance in the friend's company is likely to cause the inheritance to lose value, etc., have the beneficiary sign a document certifying they understand that and they want to do it anyway, then the fiduciary can do it and not breach their onerous duties.


For any non-fiduciary positions, Government protection is appropriate when assessed on a case-by-case basis, I think. Nominally, the two parties are on equal terms (the employee doesn't have to take the job if they don't want to do the work, the employer doesn't have to offer the job if the employee can't perform it) so the question should be where the burden is minimised.

In the example with the dog, say, if it's possible to have another employee deal with the dog without causing burden to either the business or the customer, and the incidence of the burden is rare and slight, then the employer shouldn't be able to use it as an excuse to get rid of the employee. Same would go for a butcher with one employee who couldn't handle pork for religious reasons.
 
You do know there are lots of different kinds of doctors right? Most people who walk into med school probably aren't going to be performing abortions.
Just gonna comment on this:

I'm pretty sure that those who go into med school DO have to practice the majority of different types of doctoring to a shallow extent (or, that's how it is in some places outside the US, seeing as my mom, a pediatric, had to work as an ob/gyn). So, the majority of doctors WILL have to do SOME thing regarding babies (some have to do abortions, others don't).

Anyway, another interesting twist to this is in war: should soldiers commit "immoral" acts, such as blatant crimes of war, if they are ordered to? (this case is very similar to the abortion case!)
 

mattj

blatant Nintendo fanboy
^ that's a seriously good question

A friend on another forum quoted someone else who had attempted to make the analogy of a strict, conscientious vegan business owner objecting to supporting health insurance for their employees that covers treatments that rely on animal testing, or other practices they find morally objectionable.

The point was HURRHURRHURR YOU WOULDN'T ALLOW THAT WOULD YOU?!

But really... why should a strict vegan be forced to use their time, money, energy, etc, to support or enable something that they conscientiously object to? I mean, no offense, I think veganism is ridiculous, but why should they be forced to fork over their hard earned gains to support something they object to on moral grounds?
 

Codraroll

Cod Mod
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Anyway, another interesting twist to this is in war: should soldiers commit "immoral" acts, such as blatant crimes of war, if they are ordered to?
By all possible accounts, no. Find a history book and look at the Nüremberg trials. The most remarkable outcome of those (apart from the dead nazi leaders) was the explicit establishment that "just following orders" would never free you in a court. If you commit the crime, just by following orders, you're guilty (if you're forced to at gunpoint, you wouldn't be).

During my year in the military, we were also taught this: We are responsible for our own actions. If acting out the orders from a superior means commiting war crimes, and we understand that, we should not follow them.

They also had a few extreme examples, that make you realize how crappy war really is. For instance, unless you're trained medical personnel on a medical mission, or wounded, you're never ever allowed to use a vehicle with the Red Cross /Red Crescent mark on it. Even if it is to escape from an advancing enemy known to torture captives for days before they kill them, and you are out of ammunition and supplies. That would be treason and a war crime. You may also never pose as civilian unless dismissed from duty.

In short: Big no. That rule is firmly established.
 

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