ORAS Doubles OU Don't Blame it on the Sunshine!

[Bigfoots Son]

DON'T BLAME IT ON THE SUNSHINE!
A SMOGON DOUBLES SUN TEAM
​

Originally I played Smogon OU, with my original singles team which enjoyed a lot of success online. However, a combination of the ban of Greninja to Ubers and the predictable line-ups I was facing in the OU tier (Landorus-T and Rotom-W on every team) led to me falling out of love with the tier. I moved on to UU briefly where I enjoyed great success with sub-seed Serperior, but that was quickly scuppered with the release of Contrary and the subsequent relocation of the grass-snake to BL. I decided to give Doubles a go - a format of competitive battling I had avoided thus far - and resolved to create a weather-themed team. Without further ado, I bring you the results of my labour; a team which wins more battles than it loses on Showdown, with a little prediction.


The Team:

Ninetales (F) @ Heat Rock

Ability: Drought
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Sunny Day
- Heat Wave
- Will-O-Wisp
- SolarBeam

The sun-setter of choice, Ninetales provides some core support to the team through her Drought ability, which provides instant sun for eight turns provided there are no other weather setters around. Sunny Day helps her beat other auto-weather setters which are all slower than her, and helps maintain the favourable battle conditions for as long as possible, whilst Will-O-Wisp helps spread burns and cut the offensive power of Physical attackers in half. The last two moves provide Ninetales with some way of defending herself against the likes of opposing weather-setters, but without any offensive investment she will not be easily causing many KO's. A calm nature and max HP and SpD investment grants her maximum staying power against the likes of special attackers who may try and wear her down. As a support pokemon, Ninetales is often withdrawn whilst at low health purely to bring her back in late-game to re-ignite the sun for the final sweep.

Cherrim (F) @ Leftovers

Ability: Flower Gift
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Protect
- Helping Hand
- Energy Ball
- Leech Seed

Do not be deceived. Cherrim is cute, yes. She isn't the most powerful pokemon in existence, no. But hat she does extremely well is support her team mates who are just itching to sweep, with a helping hand. Speaking of which, Helping Hand is the most important of Cherrim's moves, as it allows her to instantly boost allies' power, which is particularly potent with the likes of Typhlosion's Eruption, or the priority moves that may need just a little extra kick to secure victory. It goes without saying, but Cherrim functions best with the sun up - granting both herself and her allies a boost in Special Defense and Attack thanks to Flower Gift. This is particularly useful for Breloom, who's Helping Hand-boosted Mach Punch already...well... packs a punch, but factor in Flower Gift too and Swords Dance and you are hitting anything that doesn't resist it like a freight train. Donphan really appreciates the special defense boost too, allowing it to survive moves that would normally KO it once Sturdy has been broken. Protect allows bot scouting and protection from ally Earthquakes, and affords a free turn of Leftovers recovery, whilst Energy Ball prevents her from being Taunt-bait. Leech Seed rounds off the set for maximum sustain.
A calm nature and flower gift combination allows her to laugh off even super-effective special attacks outside of strong fire type moves, but it is good to note, too, that even outside of sun Cherrim is very useful - never underestimate Helping Hand!

Typhlosion (M) @ Choice Scarf

Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
- Eruption
- Extrasensory
- Solar Beam
- Focus Blast

The ace in the hole and late-game sweeper. Typhlosion, equipped with Choice Scarf, is one fast little bugger which in combination with a sun-boosted (and often Helping-Hand-boosted) Eruption is to the opponent what a volcano was to Pompeii! The idea is simple; use Donphan to remove all hazards and ensure the hazard setters of the opponent are gone, then weaken the enemy as much as possible with the rest of the team before bringing Typhlosion in at the home stretch to finish off all the things! Flash Fire offers further opportunities for boosting Eruption's power, and max SpA and Spe with a Modest nature affords as much speed and strength as possible. Truthfully, Typhlosion's use is often limited to Eruption-sweeping, though this is not at all a bad thing as it does this so well. Seemingly hopeless matches have been won thanks to this strategy, but just in case the other three moveslots are occupied with some extra coverage, just in case it is ever needed (which thus far it hasn't been!) Otherwise, there isn't really much else to say - it's very self explanatory!

Breloom (M) @ Focus Sash

Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spore
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Swords Dance

Breloom is a late-game Physical Sweeper, and is very frail - a problem faced by a lot of sun teams. This is somewhat remedied by Focus Sash and Flower Gift, but ultimately Breloom is only ever coming in on either a guaranteed KO or an enemy that can't hit it hard enough to do anything too worrisome. However, despite his low bulk, the power of Breloom's offenses more than compensate. Mach Punch is the primary attacking move, which has been used consistently with Cherrim's Helping Hand to sweep late-game, whilst Bullet Seed is standard for breaking sashes and racking up damage. The benefit of both is that Technician is activated, further increasing the damage output of Breloom. Jolly has been used as I like my sweepers to be as fast as possible, as ideally the enemy will have had their health whittled down low enough before my sweepers come in to make this decrease in power almost not matter. Spore provides numerous opportunities for Breloom, either in the form of a clutch Swords Dance boost or the chance to get a little more damage for free.

Donphan (M) @ Rocky Helmet

Ability: Sturdy
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Rapid Spin
- Earthquake
- Ice Shard

Donphan is the physical wall to an otherwise physically frail team, and it promotes this by using Rocky Helmet to further punish those hits that do connect. Sturdy will usually provide the opportunity for Donphan to either guarentee it gets Stealth Rock up, or score a little extra damage on an enemy to further assist a later sweeper. Rapid Spin is vital to ensure Breloom's Sash is kept intact and Typhlosion is able to retain maximum HP for the Eruption-fest it likes to reign down on the opponents team! Ice Shard provides useful priority and threatens Landorus-T; the scarfed version of which is a big threat to Typhlosion, and hits hard when super-effective due to maximum Atk investment and an adamant nature. Earthquake also hits hard with some much-appreciated STAB. Without recovery, Donphan can be worn down quite quickly, but when the sun is up and Cherrim is on the field too, the boost to Donphan's special defense and reduced damage from water attacks means that it doesn't have to fear special attacks as much as normal, though it is still best to remove Donphan altogether in the face of strong super-effective moves.

Aerodactyl (M) @ Aerodactylite

Ability: Rock Head / Tough Claws
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Fire Fang
- Protect

The last team member and my mega of choice is Aerodactyl; who is fast, powerful and an excellent physical attacker. There isn't much to say about this set, as it is pretty standard; Jolly nature for Max-speed, and STAB Rock Slide / Earthquake hit most opponents hard due to good coverage. Protect guarantees that base-150 speed is reached upon Mega Evolution, and allows for scouting. Finally, Fire Fang has been chosen due to its boost in power from Tough Claws and the sun, and has 10% chance to burn or 10% chance to flinch the opponent, too. Mid-to-late game, Aerodactyl is a monster, and rarely lets the team down.

CONCLUSION:
So that's the team as it stands. I have tested it time and again on Showdown and it really is a case of me winning more games than I am losing with it (and the ones I do lose are usually due to poor foresight or predictions on my part). However, I am still a newbie to the Doubles scene and know I have a lot to learn - I have probably made some painfully stupid choices in building this team that I have't realised due to this inexperience with the format, so any advice or feedback is welcome!

 

[Elegyy]

Hi John, glad to see you are stepping out of your comfort zone to play doubles :D. Anyways, you should probably check out some overviews and viability rankings, as your team seems much more suited for singles. Two of your pokemon could be replaced with a single pokemon, and thats in two scenarios. Teams that rely on sun to function often fail at the sight of anti weather techniques. That being said, a lot of your choices are very niche and only suited for one or two scenarios. For instance, your Typhlosion cannot function properly if it is damaged, and there are many common meta choices that either outclass your pokemon or beat them. Take, for instance, the fact that you have a very weak answer to rain in Breloom, landorus-therian totally outclasses Aerodactyl and Donphan while destroying your team, and you sun setting skills, which you rely almost one hundred percent on, is weak in bulky ninetails, which dies to many things and does not hit hard at all in return. Maybe consider adding Charizard Y into that slot, as well as taking a few anti-landorus measures?
Also, swords dance on breloom is a no go, sorry, it is just too slow and frail and has better things to do than to set up a sd to sweep.
Overall, it's a cool team, but it needs some major editing to be adequate in the doubles metagame. I did not mean to come across as rude, and if I did, I'm sorry. I am glad, however, that you have found some success with it, but if you want total success, it should probably change. Thank you for reading this, and have a nice day.
By the way, here are some links you may wanna check out:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3522814/ <- Viability Rankings
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3498688/ <- Doubles Overview
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3509619/ <- Teambuilding Frameworks
cool art btw :^)

 

[Hashtag]

elegy's advice is good. another thing to note when building for doubles is that you should have protect on almost every mon; usually the distinction is that if you are a bulky support mon, you might not need it. Also hazards are almost nonexistant in doubles. you really shouldnt bother using them and you certainly shouldnt worry about clearing them. i think that if you build with these things in mind, you will have a much more successful experience with doubles :)

EDIT: also if you need some extra hands-on help, you can come to the doubles room on PS! where we are mostly somewhat amiable people who would be glad to help

 

[MZ]

I don't play enough doubles to fully rate, but typhlosion really needs fire blast over solar beam or extrasensory (probably beam because you have plenty of grass coverage). Mono eruption coverage just isn't good enough as things like mega kanga fake out or Conkeldurr Mach punch or whatever are gonna leave you with no reliable STAB thanks to low hp

 

[Bigfoots Son]

I don't play enough doubles to fully rate, but typhlosion really needs fire blast over solar beam or extrasensory (probably beam because you have plenty of grass coverage). Mono eruption coverage just isn't good enough as things like mega kanga fake out or Conkeldurr Mach punch or whatever are gonna leave you with no reliable STAB thanks to low hp

elegy's advice is good. another thing to note when building for doubles is that you should have protect on almost every mon; usually the distinction is that if you are a bulky support mon, you might not need it. Also hazards are almost nonexistant in doubles. you really shouldnt bother using them and you certainly shouldnt worry about clearing them. i think that if you build with these things in mind, you will have a much more successful experience with doubles :)

EDIT: also if you need some extra hands-on help, you can come to the doubles room on PS! where we are mostly somewhat amiable people who would be glad to help

Hi John, glad to see you are stepping out of your comfort zone to play doubles :D. Anyways, you should probably check out some overviews and viability rankings, as your team seems much more suited for singles. Two of your pokemon could be replaced with a single pokemon, and thats in two scenarios. Teams that rely on sun to function often fail at the sight of anti weather techniques. That being said, a lot of your choices are very niche and only suited for one or two scenarios. For instance, your Typhlosion cannot function properly if it is damaged, and there are many common meta choices that either outclass your pokemon or beat them. Take, for instance, the fact that you have a very weak answer to rain in Breloom, landorus-therian totally outclasses Aerodactyl and Donphan while destroying your team, and you sun setting skills, which you rely almost one hundred percent on, is weak in bulky ninetails, which dies to many things and does not hit hard at all in return. Maybe consider adding Charizard Y into that slot, as well as taking a few anti-landorus measures?
Also, swords dance on breloom is a no go, sorry, it is just too slow and frail and has better things to do than to set up a sd to sweep.
Overall, it's a cool team, but it needs some major editing to be adequate in the doubles metagame. I did not mean to come across as rude, and if I did, I'm sorry. I am glad, however, that you have found some success with it, but if you want total success, it should probably change. Thank you for reading this, and have a nice day.
By the way, here are some links you may wanna check out:
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3522814/ <- Viability Rankings
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3498688/ <- Doubles Overview
http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/3509619/ <- Teambuilding Frameworks
cool art btw :^)

Thanks ElegyOfVGC; though it looks like I'll need to remake the image now! aha! Thank you to everyone else too. I like to use unique Pokemon as much as possible just so that I can have a little more fun with my teams, so forgive me if the following edits are not all great (feel free to point out where I've been an idiot again!) but here are some initial ideas, with your comments taken on board:

With the following in mind:
1) Ninetales is to Charizard Y what a firecracker is to the atom bomb.
2) Though a nice little gimmick, Typhlosion's reliance on Eruption is... well unreliable.
3) Donphan is pretty much obsolete as hazards are virtually non-existant in doubles.
4) I don't really struggle with Landy-T too much, but a more reliable counter would be preferable.

I am considering the following substitutions (facepalm where necessary!):
1) Cherrim - Keep, as it is a very useful support Pokemon on a sun-based team.
2) Ninetales - Switch out for Charizard Y (With Protect)
3) Donphan - Switch out for Rhydon w/Eviolite - it's still powerful, can use a -Speed nature to counter trick room teams and laughs at Talonflame.
4) Breloom - Switch out for Froslass - Choice Scarf could be useful as it would guarentee to outspeed, but Sash has its benefits too.
5) Aerodactyl - Switch out for Krookodile - It has Intimidate, and access to Knock Off and would make a useful Physical Attacker too.
6) Typhlosion - Switch out for Venusaur w/Chlorophyll - Access to Growth, Sleep Powder, Sludge Bom, Giga Drain, Protect, Leech Seed gives me a number of options.

Let me know what you guys think, and if you reckon it has any potential, I'll begin testing it on Showdown!

Again, really appreciate the honesty and the help, guys!

 

[Hashtag]

if you are interested in a scarf ice attacker, you should use kyurem-B. the best set has all physical moves and ice beam, which suits your cherrim affinity nicely as it gets a boost on most of its attacks.
Krookodile is uncommon, but certainly an interesting option, as nothing else does exactly what it does. sounds perfect for you.
all the other changes seem like a positive impact on the team, im glad that you have embraced the god Char-Y

 

[Bigfoots Son]

if you are interested in a scarf ice attacker, you should use kyurem-B. the best set has all physical moves and ice beam, which suits your cherrim affinity nicely as it gets a boost on most of its attacks.
Krookodile is uncommon, but certainly an interesting option, as nothing else does exactly what it does. sounds perfect for you.
all the other changes seem like a positive impact on the team, im glad that you have embraced the god Char-Y

I'd rather steer away from legendaries where possible, just as a point of adding diversity to the game - if not Froslass, do you have any other recommendations?
I'm glad to hear the other changes are viable though! :)

 

[MZ]

I'd rather steer away from legendaries where possible, just as a point of adding diversity to the game - if not Froslass, do you have any other recommendations?
I'm glad to hear the other changes are viable though! :)

It's hard to replace the perfect pokemon with something totally different just because of a moral dilemma on legendaries, and since the ladder still uses them you're just gonna be at a disadvantage. The only other decent fast ice type is weavile (which you don't scarf) and after that you'll have to use a different typed scarfer. Seeing as you're replacing typhlosion, rotom-h should make you less Talonflame weak and appreciate the sun boost.

 

[shaian]

here's some spreads you could try out for some of those changes:

Charizard @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
EVs: 208 HP / 88 Def / 100 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect
- Overheat

In the current meta 252 SpA / 252 Spe Zard Y is horribly outdated, and the rise of bulky ZardY has been a change that should have been made earlier. This spread always lives Adamant MKhan's return, and speed creeps the common 108 Spe Kang. 100 SpA was the leftovers, but it hits stupidly hard. I've tried out Sunny Day, as well as Focus Blast in the last slot, and they have their merits, but Overheat hits so hard, and if you predict a switch properly you can shift the course of a game drastically. Sunny Day will make playing against Rain a lot easier, and Focus Blast can help out vs Heatran and Sand Offense to some degree.

Rhydon @ Eviolite
Ability: Lightning Rod
EVs: 152 HP / 100 Atk / 16 Def / 240 SpD
Careful Nature
- Rock Slide
- Earthquake
- Protect
- Ice Punch

Specially defensive Rhydon. This spread has a 50% chance to live Life Orb Keldeo's Hydro Pump in the Sun, and is a guaranteed 3HKO versus Landorus-T's Earthquake, and guarantees a 2HKO verse it with Ice Punch, and has an 81.3% chance to OHKO it at +0. Makes an excellent partner with CharizardY.

Venusaur @ Life Orb / Wide Lens
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 152 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Leaf Storm / Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect
- Sleep Powder

More or less standard ChloroSaur (I think it might be a bit faster, I can't remember). It outruns up to the 150's in the Sun, which is basically MegaBee (does this thing get usage?), Deoxys-A, and certain Scarfs. If you're using Wide Lens, just move the 4 Def / 4 SpD into HP, but otherwise the spread also hits a Life Orb number. Giga Drain can be used over Leaf Storm since you do want to avoid switching out on precious Sun turns, but imo, spamming Sleep + Sludge Bomb is the more productive use of turns, and the Grass move should p much only be used on bulky waters and Rock / Grounds, so just going for the OHKO against them is better.

Another thing, I think you should use the Froslass slot for a Speed control option, either Tailwind or Trick Room, which should help define the latter half of the team.

For Tailwind, you could try out Togekiss or Hydreigon (or the Latis, but you said you want to avoid legendaries z_z), and for Trick Room you could try out Reuniclus or Cofagrigus (or the lord and saviour Cresselia). Either way you'll get a stronger matchup versus other types of archetypes, and get some much needed direction for the latter half, since right now the team seems like it lacks a direction outside of "Sun". Also personally I think Cherrim is eating up a precious slot right now, and you could stand to gain more flexibility if you switch it out.

 

[Haruno]

I'd rather steer away from legendaries where possible, just as a point of adding diversity to the game - if not Froslass, do you have any other recommendations?
I'm glad to hear the other changes are viable though! :)

If you're setting some stupid self imposed rule to make your team as a whole worse then how do you expect to help you?

Typhlosion is pretty ass and probably better replaced with tran.

Donphan is outright awful in doubles. hazards are rare which pretty much makes rapid spin worthless and it has nonexistent offensive presence.

Honestly as harsh as it may be, with the current RMT standards it's pretty much impossible to fix your team without changing 3+ members mostly due to using subpar/unviable choices (cherrim/ninetales/Donphan)in the doubles metagame

 

[Bigfoots Son]

If you're setting some stupid self imposed rule to make your team as a whole worse then how do you expect to help you?

Typhlosion is pretty ass and probably better replaced with tran.

Donphan is outright awful in doubles. hazards are rare which pretty much makes rapid spin worthless and it has nonexistent offensive presence.

Honestly as harsh as it may be, with the current RMT standards it's pretty much impossible to fix your team without changing 3+ members mostly due to using subpar/unviable choices (cherrim/ninetales/Donphan)in the doubles metagame

Well I wouldn't call it stupid, personally. I feel the metagame can get a bit boring when you're facing and using the same team members everytime. I like to add a little variety and bring some Pokemon that work well together. I appreciate the honesty, but there is reason for the madness.

Anyway, I've built up another team that I think may be vastly improved on paper, but that I just can't get to work (practice may be an issue here). I couldn;t get the previous team - which utilised Rhydon - to work either, but the new team is:

Charizard (M) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Blaze
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 208 HP / 88 Def / 100 SpA / 112 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heat Wave
- Solar Beam
- Protect
- Overheat

Venusaur (M) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 152 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 96 Spe
Modest Nature
- Protect
- Giga Drain
- Sludge Bomb
- Sleep Powder

Bisharp (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Brick Break

Mamoswine (M) @ Focus Sash
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Ice Shard
- Earthquake
- Knock Off

Cresselia (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Protect
- Toxic
- Moonlight
- Psychic

Salamence (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Draco Meteor
- Heat Wave
- Tailwind

For whatever reason, I'm having so much more success with the original team than I am with this. Is there something fundamentally flawed with the team, do I just need more time to practice with it or should i just stick with the original team?

 

[xzern]

Hey JohnWalton1991! You have some nice changes there, and I appreciate the creativity in your teambuilding.
Anyway, while your team looks cool, I'm going to suggest a few changes that could probably make it work better.

Venusaur @ Life Orb
Ability: Chlorophyll
EVs: 192 HP / 252 SpA / 64 Spe
Modest Nature
- Sludge Bomb
- Giga Drain
- Sleep Powder
- Protect

This venusaur set is imported straight from my own sun team, and it works pretty well. First of all, you want to have a bare minimum of 64 speed EVs in order to outspeed Adamant scarf Landorus-T, which is a prominent threat speed-wise in Doubles. I also recommend that you use a Life Orb, because 100 base SpA is rather lackluster.

Cresselia @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 100 Def / 44 SpA / 112 SpD
Calm Nature
- Icy Wind/Thunder Wave
- Helping Hand
- Psyshock
- Protect

If you're going to run Cresselia, the analysis's set would be your best bet probably. You might want to test it out on the ladder a bit and customize the set to your liking, since the analysis that I'm citing from is a bit outdated. Additionally, Toxic is a completely unviable move in Doubles, because of the meta's fast-paced nature. Stall is considered a gimmick, even. I personally like to run Safety Goggles on my Cresselia, just because it's total Spore-bait. The explanation for the spread is somewhere here.

Bisharp (M) @ Life Orb
Ability: Defiant
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Protect
- Sucker Punch
- Iron Head
- Knock Off

There's not much to say here. Bisharp's Knock Off is a really good STAB that nobody wants to miss out on. If you really want to use Brick Break, I would replace it with Iron Head.

If you want some help testing your team vs experienced players, you can always head down to the doubles room on PS and ask one of the roomauth to help you test. We're also a good resource for teambuilding advice!