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I'm highly opposed to unbanning of either evasion or moody clause. After playing with both in vgc '13 and vgc '14, I can reassure you that the strategies breed an uncompetitive air into playstyles. (pretty much the reason they were banned in singles). Although not broken abilities, they are uncompetitive and not fun to face.
This isn't aimed at anyone in particular, but I just wanted to point out that the definition of 'broken' has been discussed there, and should be taken into consideration.
I dont see how Giratina's typing is "fantastic defneisvely" it is weak to some of the very best offensive types that are already commong. BOth Ghost, and DArk are great offensively, they exist already to demolish the psychic, and ghost types that are excellent supporters in this metagame. All teams already stack many strong dark and ghost moves. Ice as a coverage move is exceedingly popular, as well as offensive powerhouses like mawile and Gardevoir's fairy attacks do serious damage to giratina. IT actually is kind of bad as a defenisve typing unless its fighting specific threats who in general can run coverage. Giratina to me, is a Cresselia with less support options, more weaknesses, more resistances, no ability heal, but a real offensive presence. I should iterate that a 120/120 offensive presence is far and away anything close to broken, if you are making an argument that tina is good offensively please make it clear that it is merely the straw that breaks the camel's back on top of its utility purposes in your arguments.
Lugia is another interesting option as an uber that could potentially be looekd at. Lugia is so fantastically bulky and has a lot of reliable healing. It;s basically impossible to bring down without repeated slugging but it has little offensive presence before setting up calm minds, as well its support movepool is under whelming, I cant see it doing much other than spamming thunder wave or dragon tail. I think a sub calm mind set would be kind of ridiculous, maybe, with sub roost it blocks a lot of shit, including toxic which would just shut it down as well acquiring many free subs thanks to multiscale. Despite this, roar is an option that lugia is vulnerable too that can be explored in a Lugia meta and is by no means a bad move otherwise!
I am for now just a bit on the fence at nominating Lugia, but I'll think this over for a bit.
I dont see how Giratina's typing is "fantastic defneisvely" it is weak to some of the very best offensive types that are already commong. BOth Ghost, and DArk are great offensively, but they exist already to demolish the psychic, and ghost types that are excellent supporters in this metagame. All teams already stack many strong dark and ghost moves. As well as this ice as a coverage move is exceedingly popular, as well as offensive powerhouses like mawile and Gardevoir's fairy attacks do serious damage to giratina. IT actually is kind of bad as a defenisve typing unless its fighting specific threats who in general can run coverage. Giratina to me, is a Cresselia with less support options, more weaknesses, more resistances, no ability heal, but a real offensive presence.
Not gonna talk on the Lugia part atm, but I just wanted to refute this point which I think is just flat out wrong. If you look at a lot of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, Giratina-O can either check or counter them thanks to Will-O-Wisp and its resistances + immunities (Charizard-Y, Heatran, Kangashan, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Landorus-T to name a few). It resists Fire, Water, Grass, Bug, and Electric and is immune to Normal, Fighting, and Ground. In what world is that bad defensive typing? Then, if you look at the list of offensive Ghost and Dark types, it's fairly small, and a few of them (Tyranitar and Bisharp for example) could be burned and crippled, meaning they wouldn't even enjoy dealing w/ Giratina-O. There are only a handful of Fairy types too, and Ice as a coverage move is decreasing in popularity due to the fact that outside of Landorus-T the things it aims to hit aren't very common. In addition, Hail isn't used that often, meaning that there's even less Ice-type attacks going around. But yeah, while your points regarding its flaws are valid, the idea that that somehow eclipses the fact that it has resistances and immunities to a majority of common spread moves, an immunity to Fake Out, 8 resists/immunities in total and exceptional bulk is not. Dunno if it should be suspected or not but just wanted to refute this.
Not gonna talk on the Lugia part atm, but I just wanted to refute this point which I think is just flat out wrong. If you look at a lot of the best Pokemon in the metagame right now, Giratina-O can either check or counter them thanks to Will-O-Wisp and its resistances + immunities (Charizard-Y, Heatran, Kangashan, Rotom-W, Rotom-H, Landorus-T to name a few). It resists Fire, Water, Grass, Bug, and Electric and is immune to Normal, Fighting, and Ground. In what world is that bad defensive typing? Then, if you look at the list of offensive Ghost and Dark types, it's fairly small, and a few of them (Tyranitar and Bisharp for example) could be burned and crippled, meaning they wouldn't even enjoy dealing w/ Giratina-O. There are only a handful of Fairy types too, and Ice as a coverage move is decreasing in popularity due to the fact that outside of Landorus-T the things it aims to hit aren't very common. In addition, Hail isn't used that often, meaning that there's even less Ice-type attacks going around. But yeah, while your points regarding its flaws are valid, the idea that that somehow eclipses the fact that it has resistances and immunities to a majority of common spread moves, an immunity to Fake Out, 8 resists/immunities in total and exceptional bulk is not. Dunno if it should be suspected or not but just wanted to refute this.
Technically almost that entire post can be applied to Dragonite and Salamence as well. Minus the part about being Fake Out immune and having WoW. Both of which have a higher offensive presence, reliable recovery, much much muuuch better abilities and the ability to hold any item.
Just saying.
Also, adding defensive behemoths to the metagame might possibly be healthy because of the offensive, short game lean we currently have. Lugia is an interesting choice, but whether having a fast sub to avoid Toxic and Whirlwind to avoid boosting wallbreakers is too much is up in the air. 90 offenses iirc aren't even good, but 100 BP Aeroblasts would add up fast if it is impossible to KO.
Actually both Dragonite and Salamence have significantly reduced bulk, and the Flying typing makes them less desirable due to the neutrality to Electric-type moves and the Rock weakness, especialy since Rock Slide is one of the most common spread attacks). While their abilities are cool, Levitate is an awesome ability too (Multiscale isn't even as great as in Singles since it's easier to break). I don't see why the whole reliable recovery thing matters, no one is using Roost Mence anytime soon (a bit better on DNite but still pretty sketchy). For the most part you're using Protect over recovery moves anyways.
Also, Griseous Orb isn't exactly dead weight, it grants you a boost on both of your STABs, which is better than plenty of other options that you'd be using on Salamence or Dragonite anyways. And in order for Salamence or Dragonite to have more offensive presence, you must go physical which means you're susceptible to burns and Intimidate, which are super common, meaning you aren't checking things like Rotom-W as effectively (in fact unless you're using a Life Orb or Plate then factoring in the Griseous Orb boost Giratina-O will be outdamaging both Salamence and Dragonite probably). Speaking of which, the majority of mons I named as things Giratina-O beats could all find ways to check or beat Salamence or Dragonite (Heatran doesn't care about them really, gets burned by Rotoms, Return from Kangaskhan hurts, Landorus-T intimidates and then hits with a Rock Slide/Stone Edge.) But yeah on your better offenses point I have some calcs to refute that:
252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Salamence Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 139-165 (45.7 - 54.2%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 163-193 (53.6 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
tl;dr saying that Dragonite and Salamence are somehow the same as Giratina-O is a super sketchy point
Lugia is another interesting option as an uber that could potentially be looekd at.
I am for now just a bit on the fence at nominating Lugia, but I'll think this over for a bit.
Please stay on the other side of this fence forever. Lugia is like Support DNite on freaking roids. It has 110 Base speed, Sub Roost, TWave, DTail, decent Offensive stats, AAAAAAAAND Multiscale. It's everythin Cress wishes it was, faster, better typing, better ability, reliable recovery, and Phazing (something that is severely underrated in Dubz). This would-be nomination is probably worse than Gira-O, in the fact that it's an even better supportmon, even though Gira can also run Offensive sets.
Now for actual Nominations.
MegaKhan
This seems to be the most nominated/discussed Suspect so far, and with very good reason. MegaKhan makes a lot of things obsolete just by being an option, like MegaLuke (just for one instance). It gets a free Choice Band but can switch moves and Protect, breaks subs and does damage at the same time on every attack, and it can pretty much plash onto any team ever. Honestly, you have to consider MegaKhan on any team you build for your mega slot because there usually isn't anything better.
MegaCharY This is my Nomination, since it doesn't seem like anyone else has done so yet. Mega Charizard Y (CharY) has become the most dominant Mega right alongside MegaKhan. So much so, that Heatran has risen to #1 in 1850 usage as a Partner AND Counter to it. While laddering for my Reqs, I can count on my hand how many competent teams DIDN'T run either/or CharY/Heatran. To me, that spells Overcentralization like nothing else. It's not just that however. It has a stupid high base Special Attack, a good speed tier, and brings its own Sun. This is what we wanted from GameFreak, a sun setter that DIDN'T suck (lolNinetales), but what we got was this guy. Sun Setter and Sun Abuser all in one. Not only that, the way MegaEvolving works makes his Drought even more potent, being able to change the weather mid turn, AFTER switches (something I tend to forget til I lose the match to it), and can fire off either Sun Boosted Heat Waves, or a 1 Turn Solarbeam to hit water types hard. It also gets decent coverage in Focus Miss, Dragon Pulse, even Ancient Power for hitting opposing CharY's hard. 159 Base Special is just stupid powerful though, and it is the higest non-Uber Special Stat in the game (beat by Deoxys, Mega Mewtwo Y, and Kyurem White), not to mention, it gets a 50% STAB boost for coming in, and it nullifies one of its weaknesses at the same time. Being on both sides of this guy, I can honestly say he's easy to use, somewhat difficult to beat without a dedicated counter (ScarfTar forever), supports an entire team Archetype by itself, and definitely the most powerful Mega atm (MegaKhan is strong as fuck, but there's no Special form of Burn or Intimidate). The only thing I can see keeping him from getting booted is that 4x Rock Weakness, but Talonflame even does well without worrying about it too much.
I honestly would not be super sad to see either of these guys go. They both limit Teambuilding to an extraordinary degree, which is toxic to a healthy metagame, and I feel that once they are gone, we can go on to having more diversity in all levels of play.
Consider this last week's SPL Matches, the "highest" level of play currently in Doubles.
Notice 4 uses of MegaKhan (2 in one match), yet every team had some answer to CharY, with an average of about 3. Usually, this was Rotom, Flash Fire abuse, and Landorus Therian. I find it striking that Rotom was basically a staple on every team, with Lando-T close behind. This isn't a new thing, they were both great in Gen 5, as was Heatran/Chandelure. But now, you almost HAVE to include them (or something similar) while teambuilding or CharY will wreck your face.
BlankZero, I figured i'd just clarify that those counters are checks for the most part (rotom-w for example loses to zard 1v1 guaranteed unless it's equipped w/ choice specs) so labelling them as counters is deceptive. And in fairness, plenty of those mons were extremely common back in gen 5 too (Rotom-W, Latios, Landorus-T, Tyranitar), so it's hardly like them being used alot is something new or is only due to how great Charizard Y is. Even without Zard Y they'd all see very high usage on account of them being fantastic Pokemon.
Lugia is obviously very good, it's only something I wanted to bring up. I wont nominate it.
I will say that I agree with surfer in that all of the pokemon that were brought as Charizard Counters to SPL were already very common pre Gen 6, as well fantastic in general. Im not sure if this substantiates a claim against ZardY. If its best checks already exist in the meta commonly perhaps it is not damaging? Granted you could easily argue that it decreases diversity based on this.
We have a Metagame currently revolving around MegaKhan and CharY. If you don't have something for them, you lose. Yes CharY's checks and counters are already common, but now you cannot veer away from using them.
I'm really unsure as to whether Charizard Y is actually broken or just really damn good.
There are tons of common threats and playstyles that make it easy to manage Charizard and there are plenty of common Pokemon you can put onto your team to help handle it that are also useful outside of checking Charizard. Even for teams that have no dedicated answer to Charizard, you can make it far easier to handle through the use of Stealth Rock which is a hugely underrated move in the metagame. Whilst it can be hard to find a Pokemon with the space to run it, I feel that it isn't too hard to drop something like U-turn on Landorus in favor of the covert cobblestones. Other Pokemon like Tyranitar or Terrakion can also run it as they are likely to force switches which lets them get rocks up for free.
Charizard really struggles to deal with surprise sets. It's entirely possible to catch it out with Pokemon like ScarfTar which is actually a really good threat right now. Pokemon like this are difficult to predict and lure in Charizard who is then easily dealt with. Wide Guard on Aegislash or other similar Pokemon is another brilliant way to deal with Charizard since it will be spamming Heat Wave most of the time. This is by no means a redundant move slot either, it's not like you're forced to run something bad to deal with Charizard.
Heatran has been mentioned tons but I want to state my opinion on it. People aren't necessarily running it because they're worried about Charizard, they're running it because its a damn good Pokemon which is hard to deal with.
The thing that is annoying about Charizard-Y is its coverage, which is a good and a bad thing. HP Ground and Dragon Pulse (lel) can be placed somewhere in the set and eliminate Charizard's main checks (Heatran or Dragons respectively). Whenever I play a Charizard-Y, the first thing I have to do is scope for coverage. The fact that it can easily surprise its checks makes it so scary, but when you do know its coverage, it is very easy to check. It is sort of metagame-defining that bulkier teams need a response to all of Charizard-Y's coverage, but since Protect is so common, it is easy to scope for that coverage and stall sun turns too.
Of course, using protect to scope out coverage makes it so much easier for friggin Charizard-X to appear, set up Dragon Dance, and rape you. The versatility of this mon is insane, considering that each mon has totally different checks. While fast teams can easily check both Charizard forms, anything bulky offensive and below has to be extremely careful around it. While Kanga at least has Wil-O-Wisp with solid counters, Zard is capable of picking apart all of its threats with different sets.
I don't think Charizard Y should be banned. However, I will say that Hidden Power's sixty BP isn't helping.
252+ SpA Lilligant Hidden Power Rock vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 228-272 (76.5 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You'd need 145+ Sp Atk to have a good shot at OHKOing him with HP Rock. That's without a boosting item, anyway. Chlorophyll is still a pretty good strategy though.
The thing that is annoying about Charizard-Y is its coverage, which is a good and a bad thing. HP Ground and Dragon Pulse (lel) can be placed somewhere in the set and eliminate Charizard's main checks (Heatran or Dragons respectively). Whenever I play a Charizard-Y, the first thing I have to do is scope for coverage. The fact that it can easily surprise its checks makes it so scary, but when you do know its coverage, it is very easy to check. It is sort of metagame-defining that bulkier teams need a response to all of Charizard-Y's coverage, but since Protect is so common, it is easy to scope for that coverage and stall sun turns too.
Of course, using protect to scope out coverage makes it so much easier for friggin Charizard-X to appear, set up Dragon Dance, and rape you. The versatility of this mon is insane, considering that each mon has totally different checks. While fast teams can easily check both Charizard forms, anything bulky offensive and below has to be extremely careful around it. While Kanga at least has Wil-O-Wisp with solid counters, Zard is capable of picking apart all of its threats with different sets.
Zard-X is kept in check pretty well by the ever present Landorus-therian, but I agree that the unpredictability of fighting charizard can be quite daunting. I wouldn't lel at dragon pulse, it cleanly 2hkos latias.
Anyways, I personally don't have any issue with Zard sticking around, there are still a pretty good amount of checks, it has its flaws, and its checks are pretty good. The only argument that I think is receivable in favour of banning the thing is that although there are checks, and good ones, you simply MUST carry them or face annihilation, thus it decreases metagame diversity! This formally a no suspect nomination from me.
well I figure its about time I put my two cents in .
Personally, I think the metagame has no overpowering Pokemon. That being said, if we bring down something like Giratina we will find my statement to be false.
Pocket EDIT: Mizuhime, don't discuss about sleep clause (see the OP) -_-;;
As already pointed out by many before me, I believe Kangaskhanite should be suspected. The primary reasons:
1) The ability to fake out anything with scrappy buys a free turn for your teammate to setup, switch, or cripple/hurt your opponent. In order for the opponent to stop this, they usually have to lead incredibly anti-kanga. By forcing your opponent to anti-lead, you can counter lead that. Also, you don't even have to fake out, you could just start setting up with power up punch or hurting something with your stab. The ability to switch your plans considerably because of mega-kanga's high speed and attack ultimately adds to its OPness.
2) power up punch. With no or little support, mega-kanga can usually get to +2. It can then usually proceed to take down a mon or two. And power up punch even lets you bypass intimidate to an extent.
I do want to note, someone said that having an "untauntable swords dance" was nice, but I actually think that mega-kanga might actually prefer sd. You can't get a full sd from hitting a ghost (you can only get one if you didn't mega) and no sd if enemy protects.
Either way, mega-kanga can relatively easily get to +2 and hurt something.
3)ghosts are not a check. you thought you were immune to kanga after she mega-evolved. Sucker punch says hi. I realize that there are bulky ghosts that can take the non-stab sucker punch (or just not attack), but I would like to point out that these same ghosts will almost always go for will-o-wisp to neutralize mega-kanga. The simple knowledge that these bulky ghosts will do that move out of fear for their teammates still leaves you with a lot of options (like switching out to something that dosen't mind the burn).
4) bulk. it's defensive stats are pretty good, but what makes its bulk outstanding is that it only has one weakness. and a lot of these fighting types still have to play around mega-kanga because of the power mega-kanga has. the ones that outspeed mega-kanga are you usually frail. and the slow bulky ones usually rely on TR (which totem already pointed out how mega-kanga destroys). And even after that, fighting types got nerfed with fairies resisting them, this nerf perhaps having the effect of making it harder to run the fighting types required to swiftly deal with mega-kanga.
5)team preview. the enemy will usually suspect that if you have kanga in team preview, that it will be the mega. however, kanga does not necessarily have to be the mega, as its regular forme is definitely respectable and your mega spot could be replaced with some other mega. this uncertainty that mega-kanga causes forces the opponent to play around mega-khan in a way that i feel makes mega-kanga too influential.
6)on a more funny note, i think singkhaskhan is actually a thing. It has like 80% accuracy iirc, and although it isn't that threatening, it's definitely an option ;]
I was curious as to how gira-o would help check mega-mom if we added gira-o before mega-mom. I think it would help. Just some calcs to think about:
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Giratina-O: 282-333 (55.9 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina-O: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
All in all, I think the extent to which mega-kanga puts pressure on the metagame is too much, and that mega-khan should be suspected.
tl;dr- buys a lot of free turns for itself and its teammates, hard to check, bulky
alright hi so sorry for not making any effort to contribute during most of the suspect phase but i had irl stuff (/excuses excuses), anyway now's my chance :o!!
i think i'd like to talk about gira-o first, it actually struck me as quite a good idea the first time i saw youngjake's nom. obviously most of you guys don't think so but here's my two cents' worth so at least i can say i contributed.
offensively, gira-o is no doubt a threat. 120/120 offenses are nothing to scoff at, further boosted by the griseous orb. together with pretty good coverage, i could see how it can be considered a threat. however, keep in mind that gira-o lacks a key aspect of most pokemon: unpredictability. since gira-o is limited to its single item, it can't hold leftovers, sitrus berry, weakness policy or indeed a lot of other common items which would be excellent on it. i don't dispute that griseous orb is a great item, but it largely ties gira-o to an offensive role. as mentioned by youngjake, gira-o is largely outclassed in said role by kyu-b and co.
should you try to fit gira-o into a defensive or support role, you'll likely find it outclassed in a few regards, namely movepool and bulk. its support movepool comprises thunder wave, will-o-wisp, icy wind and ... gravity. unlike cresselia or latias, it also has no form of reliable recovery. now consider the following three bulk spreads:
comparing gira-o with latias, note that both share resistances to common spread moves (surf, discharge, earthquake, heat wave). while gira-o is slightly bulkier, latias has tailwind, recover/roost, helping hand, heal pulse and safeguard as support options. :)
comparing gira-o with cress, cress lacks many key resistances that gira-o boasts (eg bug, fire water etc). however, cress beats it in bulk and has access to helping hand, trick room, and moonlight.
thus i would like to propose that gira-o may not be directly outclassed by cress/latias, but that it has a certain niche in the metagame: to provide support while countering chary and megakang.
apologies if my arguments seem weak af, i had to write this in multiple chunks of short time and my brain doesnt function well under those circumstances (/more excuse)
i nominate giratina-o for a suspect.
---
finally, i'd like to point out that suspecting something doesn't mean that it's definitely going to be introduced to / banned from the tier. i don't see what's so wrong with giving gira-o a chance. if it's more overpowered than everyone thought, then just vote against it! there's no need to be so paranoid about these things imo; judging by the status quo we don't actually have that many things to suspect, and there's no harm in taking chances as small as these.
I am glad Level 51 has substantiated in words some ideas as to why Gira-O is worth looking at. One correction however is that GIratina DOES get tailwind.
Since we're going to test sleep clause anyways, I'm nomianting no suspects otherwise. Nothing's so broken it cannot be countered. Charizard and Mega-k are the worst threads, but the first is nailed by a lot of common threats and the second can be nullified if played properly with will-o-wisp or intimidate spam.
Since we're going to test sleep clause anyways, I'm nomianting no suspects otherwise. Nothing's so broken it cannot be countered. Charizard and Mega-k are the worst threads, but the first is nailed by a lot of common threats and the second can be nullified if played properly with will-o-wisp or intimidate spam.
But what happens when someone wises up and starts running Defiant mons with that Kangaskan? Or switches Heatran into the WoW? Yes you can deal with Khan, but what about the super common methods of countering that?
But what happens when someone wises up and starts running Defiant mons with that Kangaskan? Or switches Heatran into the WoW? Yes you can deal with Khan, but what about the super common methods of countering that?
There are some good points that were brought up for voting on Kangaskhanite, particularly srk1214's post. I do believe that Kangaskhanite has a combination of good qualities that warrant its suspect status. As nyttyn has pointed out, Kangaskhan's Return does comparable damage as Kyurem-B's Choice Band Dragon Claw, which is some serious damage output. However, despite its incredible power, stellar bulk, decent speed, lack of exploitable weaknesses, and the ability to support its team and overwhelm the opponent, I believe that Mega Kangaskhan should remain in Doubles. The fact that many people forego Kangaskhan for other mega Pokemon choices, such as Charizard Y, Mawile, Tyranitar, Garchomp, Manectric, Gardevoir, and Abomasnow is a testament that Kangaskhan has not totally monopolized the metagame. Here are the reasons why:
Kangaskhan is predictable
If you encounter a Kangaskhan, you KNOW it would be Mega Kangaskhan with Fake Out, Return / Double-Edge, Sucker Punch, Power-Up Punch / Drain Punch. You wont be surprised by a Kangaskhan with a Choice Scarf or a Chople Berry. There is very little variation in its set, and such predictability does work against it. The predictability of Kangaskhan allow players to promptly work towards shutting it down. Granted, like most other Mega Pokemon, Kangaskhan can afford to be predictable, since it does its job extremely well. However, predictability does help make this mama a manageable threat.
Kangaskhan lacks useful resistances
Despite Kangaskhan's bulk and lack of weaknesses, its dearth of resistances hurts its bulk. Switching in Kangaskhan into any moderately powerful neutral move would quickly wear it down and limit its options in the battle. This is why Kyurem-B, despite its numerous weakness to common moves can still find many chances to switch into most Electric-, Grass-, Water-types of Doubles to wreck face. If you look at other Mega Pokemon, most of them possess some useful resistances that makes them easier to manipulate than Kangaskhan.
Kangaskhan lacks powerful spread moves
One of the main reason why it hasn't monopolized the Mega Pokemon pool and dominated this tier. Kangaskhan's lack of spread moves leaves it vulnerable to one of the opponent's assaults and increases the difficulty to single-handedly sweep teams. Foregoing Protect to further enhance its utility only exacerbates the vulnerability of Kangaskhan. Powerful spread moves are one of the reasons why people opt for Charizard Y, Gardevoir, Abomasnow, and Garchomp as their Mega Pokemon of choice over Kangaskhan. These Pokemon may arguably have greater potential to wipe the opposing team with its spread moves than Kangaskhan.
Kangaskhan diversifies the pool of Fake Out users
I mentioned some important flaws of Kangaskhan, but I also believe Kangaskhan has affected this metagame positively by providing us with an additional super viable Fake Out user. Without Kangaskhan, most players would have to resort to Fighting-types, namely Hitmontop and Scrafty, for their Fake Out needs. There are some other Fake Out users available, such as Meowstic, Liepard, Weavile, Blastoise, Ludicolo, Shiftry, and Sableye, but most of them are simply more circumstantial or less effective Fake Out users than the aforementioned Fighting-types. Kangaskhan offers an additional well-rounded Pokemon which can provide this precious utility, which I find desirable.
Kangaskhan does not excessively restrict teambuilding
Kangaskhan does not restrict teambuilding as much as you guys say it does, due to the flaws that I mentioned above. Teams don't require any specialized checks or counters to deal with her. Most effective teams would not find it hard to accommodate for Kangaskhan. If anything, I find powerful wielders of spread moves (Heat Wave, Earthquake, Rock Slide, and Blizzard), Follow Me / Rage Powder users (honestly you're fucked if you don't have a Pokemon that efficiently breaks Togekiss), and Pokemon with plethora of resistances that are complemented with solid bulk and power (Heatran, Aegislash, Latios, Landorus-T, Bisharp) to be a lot more restrictive to teambuilding than Kangaskhan.
Kangaskhan is NOT uncompetitive
A team with Kangaskhan does not possess an immediate advantage over teams without her. Whoever makes the better moves will almost always win games, regardless of Kangaskhan. If the opponent has a considerable lead, Kangaskhan can come extremely close to closing the gap, but will often fall short. Pokemon like Heatran can turn games around a lot more often than Kangaskhan imo.
offensively, gira-o is no doubt a threat. 120/120 offenses are nothing to scoff at, further boosted by the griseous orb. together with pretty good coverage, i could see how it can be considered a threat. however, keep in mind that gira-o lacks a key aspect of most pokemon: unpredictability. since gira-o is limited to its single item, it can't hold leftovers, sitrus berry, weakness policy or indeed a lot of other common items which would be excellent on it. i don't dispute that griseous orb is a great item, but it largely ties gira-o to an offensive role. as mentioned by youngjake, gira-o is largely
outclassed in said role by kyu-b and co.
Most offensive attackers run either Life Orb, a 20% boost item, a choice item, a handful use assault vest, and some maybe use a resist berry. Giratina-O gets two 20% boosts. Nobody runs weakness policy, and only defensive mons sometimes run Leftovers, with the majority choosing to run a Sitrus or Resist berry. The loss of these isn't nearly as big of a blow to Giratina-o, who has among the best bulk in the game. It doubly so is not as much of an issue as it is made out to be, due to the increasingly high popularity of Knock Off.
It is also far from outclassed by Kyu-B and co, as it not only has literally one of the best offensive STAB combos in the game, but it also has literally every single good move from both Dragon and Ghost STAB from both the Physical and Special side, along with mixed 120/120 offenses. Yes, it kind of sucks it can't run a item of its choice, but having a 20% boost to unresisted dual-STAB and being able to run either Special or Physical as it wishes is very unpredictable. It also has titanic bulk that outstrips many, many other attackers, and very powerful STAB Prioirty in the form of Shadow Sneak.
should you try to fit gira-o into a defensive or support role, you'll likely find it outclassed in a few regards, namely movepool and bulk. its support movepool comprises thunder wave, will-o-wisp, icy wind and ... gravity. unlike cresselia or latias, it also has no form of reliable recovery.
Over half the time, Cresselia and Latias can't even fit their recovery onto their movesets, and will often even run Protect in favor of said moves. Between Will-o-Wisp, Tailwind, Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave, it already has drastically better supportive options then almost any pokemon in the game, and Tailwind and Will-o-Wisp on the same set is a feat that very few pokemon can match, most of which have nowhere near the same level of bulk and typing as Giratina-o.
um could you please explain what 'm looking at here because I have literally never seen that way of representing bulk before.
comparing gira-o with latias, note that both share resistances to common spread moves (surf, discharge, earthquake, heat wave). while gira-o is slightly bulkier, latias has tailwind, recover/roost, helping hand, heal pulse and safeguard as support options. :)
I would like to note that Giratina-o also has two useful immunities over Latias, as well as one less weakness, and access to Will-o-Wisp.
comparing gira-o with cress, cress lacks many key resistances that gira-o boasts (eg bug, fire water etc). however, cress beats it in bulk and has access to helping hand, trick room, and moonlight.
Cress also does not have access to Tailwind or Will-o-Wisp, Moonlight is arguably unreliable anyways with Sand everywhere as well as the rising popularity of rain, and barely beats Giratina-O in bulk. To wit -
252+ Atk Choice Band Rattata Return vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Giratina-O: 127-151 (28.7 - 34.2%) -- 1.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rattata Hyper Beam vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Giratina-O: 120-142 (27.2 - 32.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Rattata Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cresselia: 139-165 (31.3 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Rattata Hyper Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Cresselia: 102-120 (22.9 - 27%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
Edited: As you can see, Cresseila actually has inferior Physical bulk for optimized maximum bulk, along with superior Special bulk. In short - while overall Cresseila edges out Giratina-O in bulk, as you can see, it is not an enormous, or even by any means large difference. And this is without getting into Giratina-o's far superior resistances/immunities.
thus i would like to propose that gira-o may not be directly outclassed by cress/latias, but that it has a certain niche in the metagame: to provide support while countering chary and megakang.
Giratina-o completely outclasess both of them, and there are plenty of things that can already check/counter Charizard-Y and Mega Kangaskhan. It is not a niche our tier desperately needs, as while I personally feel that both pokemon are overpowering, there are definitely ways to deal with them. And regardless, even if it was a niche the tier desperately needed, all that would do would be overcentralise the tier around Giratina-o due to treating the symptoms instead of the problem.
finally, i'd like to point out that suspecting something doesn't mean that it's definitely going to be introduced to / banned from the tier. i don't see what's so wrong with giving gira-o a chance. if it's more overpowered than everyone thought, then just vote against it! there's no need to be so paranoid about these things imo; judging by the status quo we don't actually have that many things to suspect, and there's no harm in taking chances as small as these.
The problem with suspecting Griatina-O is that nobody has yet to provide a really strong argument for why it should be suspect tested. On paper and with theorymon, it is incredibly broken, and every single argument thus far presented in this thread relies on A. Underselling Tailwind/Will-o-Wisp, B. Overselling Recover/Moonlight, C. Underselling Giratina-o's bulk, and D. Underselling Giratina-o's power. Nobody has been able to address why this wouldn't be a waste of time via reaffirming what nearly everything we know about Giratina-o suggests.
oh yeah also, on the note of lack of support moves: it can run Draco Meteor if it wants on a supporting set.
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Cresselia: 157-186 (35.3 - 41.8%) -- 84.3% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gengar: 250-295 (95.4 - 112.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 297-351 (113.3 - 133.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blastoise: 187-222 (51.6 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 135-160 (44.4 - 52.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Blaziken: 262-310 (87 - 102.9%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
4 SpA Griseous Orb Giratina-O Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 267-315 (89.5 - 105.7%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
On a somewhat unrelated note, but I do think it's important... How does Giratina-O potentially being unbanned, but Giratina remaining banned fit with Smogon banning philosophy. It essentially amounts to a complex ban of all held items on Giratina (including no held item) except for Griseous Orb. Unlike the Therians or Skymin, etc, Giratina-O is literally just Giratina holding a Griseous Orb. Just a thought to consider, since it's a unique case.
As to Pocket's post on Kangaskhan, I don't dispute anything that was said. The arguments Pocket made are equally as valid, while subjective, as any that I or others made. I do, however, still think it merits a suspect test. Nothing in the meta is truly obviously OP, but for me at least Kangaskhanite seems a decent candidate to suspect, just to see how a meta without it would be in comparison.
To those commenting on Charizardite-Y reducing metagame diversity, I think you're a bit off there. Charizardite-Y may be a tad too good. It's possible, yet also very debatable. I could easily argue that a metagame without Charizardite-Y would be less diverse than the current one, since Sun's usage would likely plummet to around what it was in BW (Ninetales sucks... remember?) While many may say that this is a boon for diversity, since Sun is no longer a dominant weather since it's stuck with Ninetales, may I remind you that Rain was at 16% in BW, about what Sun is now? The demise of Sun may actually just result in Rain reasserting its BW status as the dominant weather. Again, I'd be fine to suspect this and see if it's true or not, but I think the assumption that Charizardite-Y is bad for the meta is off.
EDIT: How Giratina-O is selected in the PS teambuilder is entirely irrelevant... I mean really...
On a somewhat unrelated note, but I do think it's important... How does Giratina-O potentially being unbanned, but Giratina remaining banned fit with Smogon banning philosophy. It essentially amounts to a complex ban of all held items on Giratina (including no held item) except for Griseous Orb. Unlike the Therians or Skymin, etc, Giratina-O is literally just Giratina holding a Griseous Orb. Just a thought to consider, since it's a unique case.
As to Pocket's post on Kangaskhan, I don't dispute anything that was said. The arguments Pocket made are equally as valid, while subjective, as any that I or others made. I do, however, still think it merits a suspect test. Nothing in the meta is truly obviously OP, but for me at least Kangaskhanite seems a decent candidate to suspect, just to see how a meta without it would be in comparison.
To those commenting on Charizardite-Y reducing metagame diversity, I think you're a bit off there. Charizardite-Y may be a tad too good. It's possible, yet also very debatable. I could easily argue that a metagame without Charizardite-Y would be less diverse than the current one, since Sun's usage would likely plummet to around what it was in BW (Ninetales sucks... remember?) While many may say that this is a boon for diversity, since Sun is no longer a dominant weather since it's stuck with Ninetales, may I remind you that Rain was at 16% in BW, about what Sun is now? The demise of Sun may actually just result in Rain reasserting its BW status as the dominant weather. Again, I'd be fine to suspect this and see if it's true or not, but I think the assumption that Charizardite-Y is bad for the meta is off.
You choose Giratina-O in the teambuilder, not Giratina. Choosing Giratina can still stay banned without causing a complex ban or I guess unbanning both could be discussed. I haven't really thought about it, but I'd think that Giratina would be more powerful of a threat.
