EVO 1 - Process Vote

[Notty]

So, Gorm, you're saying that if we have a re-vote and Farfy wins again, you're perfectly okay with that?

Granted, I think you've turned enough people on the idea of a Camerupt EVO (myself included) that it's basically already won, but I'm just curious.

 

[eric the espeon]

Just leaving a note here, can a mod come on the server to unban people as I am leaving it.
HAL has been going crazy with all the discussion, I have unbanned Latino and Gorm at least 5 times each as well as a few others....

 

[gorm]

the thing is evolving farfetchd is not a whole lot more than creating a new pokemon and i would actually be pretty furious. fetchd has nothing like a basis to build upon.

if you think its already won you need to give the people who are gonna supprt qwilfish/others some credit

 

[shade]

there is no double edged sword. there is informed public and non informed public. the old process didnt really encourage thinking about it, it encouraged picking a pokemon that is fun to evolve.

that vote was borne of a bad process. i am 100% behind ignoring it.


if you want fetchd for evo you better be ready to make a great argument.

You're saying we should pick a Pokémon that is not fun to evolve? Where's the logic behid that, lol? The majority decided Farfetch'd, albeit in a "flawed" manner, and now people talk of Camerupt after the main vote. Where was all this Camerupt support in the first thread? I didn't see any.

 

[macle]

You're saying we should pick a Pokémon that is not fun to evolve? Where's the logic behid that, lol? The majority decided Farfetch'd, albeit in a "flawed" manner, and now people talk of Camerupt after the main vote. Where was all this Camerupt support in the first thread? I didn't see any.

No. He is saying that the pokemon should be picked for a good reason not just because it would be fun to evolve.

 

[Zore]

Great plan, you have probably with this single-handedly destroyed the entire CAP project. As far as I understand, and I've been lurking from the beginning, this was a community project. Community meaning no one person should be able to just do whatever the hell they want. Then someone comes in and says "WAHHH WAHH, I dun liek it. Here's my ttly kewl proposal!" and for some reason everyone decided he was more qualified dispite never having worked on a CAP project before.

It bothers me that we aren't even willing to see all the flaws before fixing it. That we have decided everything is invalid. That we are going to end up with a thinly veiled olgiarchy, pushing their ideas through dispite what the community wants. How long until someone else with as many posts and as much clout as Gorm decides they don't like a CAP's typing poll and redoes it? You say this won't happen, but then the same would have been said about this thread a few days ago.

This pisses me off to the extreme. For the record I agree with almost every point he made, hell I had some of the same concerns, but this was NOT the way to go about it. If this goes through we have opened up a large can of worms and I hope the community is ready to deal with it. The process will never be perfect or even close. This is a fact. Letting someone come in midstream helps us fix the first few steps of flaw... but what then? Yeah now we can go through half the project better, but what if something else comes up later? Would I be justified in making a post like the Camerupt post?

Whatever, the fact that anyone is seriously considering restarting the project is hugely disapponiting. Its sad that the EVO project has thus been gutted. The Evo project was not supposed to be soley about giving relatively decent pokemon minor stat boosts, it was to make pokemon Playable. Now this is never going to happen, we're going to pick Camerupt and then Houndoom and then other generic pokemon who are only slightly outshadowed. This was supposed to be about testing how new ideas and concepts affect the metagame, not just adding in another generic special sweeper or tank.

It probably won;t matter anyways, I don;t have 3000 posts because I prefer to lurk. This will be disregarded by almost everyone and we will restart EVO 1. This really pisses me off and smacks of favoritism.

EDIT: I reread through some of the posts and realized one of the biggest reasons Camerupt was pushed was to remedy Platinum OU problems. EVO projects will never be in regular OU, they will be in CAP OU. He dosen't even care about the CAP metagame, or the past projects.

 

[Lorak]

I'm just upset I didn't know this was starting. There was a certain someone I wanted to suggest...

 

[gorm]

Great plan, you have probably with this single-handedly destroyed the entire CAP project.

thanks ~

As far as I understand, and I've been lurking from the beginning, this was a community project. Community meaning no one person should be able to just do whatever the hell they want.

lol if protest is not allowed then i dnot want to be part of that community. people are changing their minds, stop acting like im alone. i made a thread and people agreed. it was a *whistleblow*

Then someone comes in and says "WAHHH WAHH, I dun liek it. Here's my ttly kewl proposal!" and for some reason everyone decided he was more qualified dispite never having worked on a CAP project before.

you are pretty much saying i didnt have good arguments and i just cried about it.

fuck you.

It bothers me that we aren't even willing to see all the flaws before fixing it. That we have decided everything is invalid. That we are going to end up with a thinly veiled olgiarchy, pushing their ideas through dispite what the community wants. How long until someone else with as many posts and as much clout as Gorm decides they don't like a CAP's typing poll and redoes it? You say this won't happen, but then the same would have been said about this thread a few days ago.

oligarchy more like democracy where people can show dissent and change shit. if anything cap is an oligarchy right now lol

This pisses me off to the extreme. For the record I agree with almost every point he made, hell I had some of the same concerns, but this was NOT the way to go about it.

*sorry*

If this goes through we have opened up a large can of worms and I hope the community is ready to deal with it.

so do i.

The process will never be perfect or even close. This is a fact.

but it can be better. why not make it better.

Letting someone come in midstream helps us fix the first few steps of flaw... but what then?

more fixes, more interest, hopefully.

Yeah now we can go through half the project better, but what if something else comes up later?

fix it

Would I be justified in making a post like the Camerupt post?

yes

Whatever, the fact that anyone is seriously considering restarting the project is hugely disapponiting.

why

Its sad that the EVO project has thus been gutted.

why

The Evo project was not supposed to be soley about giving relatively decent pokemon minor stat boosts, it was to make pokemon Playable.

by evolving fetchd you are not making apokemon playable you are making a new pokemon based on fetchd playable. by evolving camperupt you are making camerupt himself more powerful without changing his role (mixed offense with slight bulk--->better offense better bulk)

Now this is never going to happen, we're going to pick Camerupt and then Houndoom and then other generic pokemon who are only slightly outshadowed.

you say generic like making a slight change isn't better for the project. id argue it is, we can focus alot more on details by not making EVERYTHING frfrom scratch like fetchd

This was supposed to be about testing how new ideas and concepts affect the metagame, not just adding in another generic special sweeper or tank.

lol thats exactly what would happen if fetchd was made into aphysical sweeper and thats probably what would have happened if i didnt protest

It probably won;t matter anyways, I don;t have 3000 posts because I prefer to lurk. This will be disregarded by almost everyone and we will restart EVO 1. This really pisses me off and smacks of favoritism.

proven wrong?

again with the favoritism accusation. leave me alone lol

EDIT: I reread through some of the posts and realized one of the biggest reasons Camerupt was pushed was to remedy Platinum OU problems. EVO projects will never be in regular OU, they will be in CAP OU. He dosen't even care about the CAP metagame, or the past projects.

thats right. i think more people will be more interested if this is applied to a metagame more people are farmilliar with. i think strating fresh is exactly what cap needs.

 

[Infiltrator]

I voted to continue with the original project.

 

[zfs]

So originally, everyone said "respect the democratic process" when Farfy won the voting. Now that the majority is voting to restart the process, certain people are saying "Fuck the democratic process, you guys don't understand the meta, why are you even voting?"

That doesn't seem very consistent.

 

[Hyra]

hm...

I think the main problem here is that the CAP metagamehas gotten to the point Doug feared; it's not very similar to the main DPP metagame. I think we might need to fix this.

Gorm's new direction for CAP sounds like a good one, using Pokemon to fix the metagame. However, what happens when the problems a pokemon existed to fix are no longer relevant to the metagame? This is pretty much what has happened with Syclant and Revenankh (Chomp is gone, Luke and Tar are much less eminent than they were months ago).

I'm starting to think that an approach similar to the Pokemon TCG could be applied, where we eventually disallow Pokemon after a certain amount of time, simply to keep the CAP metagame closer to the real one.

I'm actually gonna get on the server later to discuss this with you guys. Marching band is over so I have more free time now (I just need to remember Shoddy exists).

 

[gorm]

lol exactly zfs

I think the main problem here is that the CAP metagamehas gotten to the point Doug feared; it's not very similar to the main DPP metagame. I think we might need to fix this.

yup

Gorm's new direction for CAP sounds like a good one, using Pokemon to fix the metagame. However, what happens when the problems a pokemon existed to fix are no longer relevant to the metagame? This is pretty much what has happened with Syclant and Revenankh (Chomp is gone, Luke and Tar are much less eminent than they were months ago).

what happens? we deal with it. i cant predict the future but i think we need to start fresh and this will go better

I voted to continue with the original project.

any reasoning to go with this announcement?

 

[Bass]

At this rate, we are going to eventually re-do the process, so I am going to try not to start another fight. I still hold the belief that fighting legitimate poll results is BS, but I'll live with the results if they will not only better the EVO process, but also, as gorm told me on the server, make all contributions to CAP on the same level as other contributions to smogon, which I agree with.

 

[RBG]

thats right. i think more people will be more interested if this is applied to a metagame more people are farmilliar with. i think strating fresh is exactly what cap needs.

Ummm, as much as that sounds nice, maybe instead of doing just that, they make two ladders, one for all CAP poke and the EVOs, and one for Just the EVOs. BUt hat is not the issue here. THe issue is that the process was wrong, and should be fixed. If you efeel that there should be a ladder with just the EVO Poke, the bring up a topic about it when this pokemon is created. I feel that is a good idea to have two ladders, as it makes inviting new people easier.

 

[gorm]

ill get to all that eventully RBG but yeah thats what i had in mind :D

make all contributions to CAP on the same level as other contributions to smogon, which I agree with.

excellent.

 

[zarator]

zarator, other people have accused the farfetch'd crowd of fanboyism, so its a valid defense. you also just asked him how he accepts fanboyism running rampant through CAP, which is tantamount to an accusation.

Urza, I challenge you to find a post where i say that everyone voted for Farfetch'd voted it for fanboysh reasons. I simply voted against it because of how many people voted it because it is "cool". If all the voters would have maid comment on the same level and line of Gormenghast (lol), Tennisace and so on, probably i would have ended up for voting Farfy too, if the points they made out seemed acceptable to me.
Now, instead of defend Eric which I did not accuse, try to defend the majority of the community and especially those i quoted in my first post on this thread, if you like. If you will find a good reasoning which will destroy mine, i'll agree with you happily. Truth is more important than win.

Because they will only ever be used in said fake metagame.
And if we deicide to keep going with the Pokmeon has already been voted on (farfy) it does not exclude in any way evolving Camerupt in a future CaP.

Eric, again, im not against Farfetch'd itself winning. I'm against what made Farfetch'd win. Im tired of reading posts without good reasoning and fanboysh-leaded votes.

So, here is my proposal

Everyone who wants to vote must post first. Votes of people who did not make a post to back up their choice will be deleted.
Posts who does not show a strictly competitive-based reasoning will be deleted and therefore do not legitimate a vote.

While this calls for a bit of extra work for the mods, I think fanboysm would be completely put out of commission. If you do not agree, prove me why it is impossible, because i will not accept or tolerate - by myself ofc, mods decide after all - any apology of fanboysm and ignorance.

Just to make clearer what i mean for competitive-based:

COMPETITIVE ARGUMENTS
"Xatu needs an evolution because its type would provide a good tanking combination, worse than Skarmory's but backed up by a solid support movepool"
"Camerupt needs an evolution because its type would allow him to pose a serious threat to most common pokemon like Heatran, Celebi, Zapdos and Scizor, provided we enhance ts bulkyness"
"Golduck needs an evolution because, provided better stats/movepool, its ability Cloud Nine would be interesting in a weather-based metagame. Moreover, its moves would allow him to beat the 3 OU weather-inducing pokemon easily 1 on 1"

NON COMPETITIVE ARGUMENTS
"Delibird needs an evo. It has crap stats, a bad typing and a bad movepool. It is also completely outclassed by Articuno now that the legendary bird looms in the lower tiers"(The writer does not underline a hole in the OU metagame which Delibird would already be able to fill with minor changes)
"Girafarig needs an evo. It has a unique typing and Baton Pass so that it could compete pretty well in OU with the right stats" (unique typing is a selling point which could be extended to many other UUs - hell, even to Magcargo!^^. And, BTW, there is nothing Girafarig can BP which has not its OU BPer - Celebi for CM, Gliscor for Agility/Rock Polish)

Hope you got the point

@Gorm: thanks, you spared me a quote^^ good point bass

 

[gorm]

So, here is my proposal

Everyone who wants to vote must post first. Votes of people who did not make a post to back up their choice will be deleted.
Posts who does not show a strictly competitive-based reasoning will be deleted and therefore do not legitimate a vote.

While this calls for a bit of extra work for the mods, I think fanboysm would be completely put out of commission. If you do not agree, prove me why it is impossible, because i will not accept or tolerate - by myself ofc, mods decide after all - any apology of fanboysm and ignorance.

Just to make clearer what i mean for competitive-based:

COMPETITIVE ARGUMENTS
"Xatu needs an evolution because its type would provide a good tanking combination, worse than Skarmory's but backed up by a solid support movepool"
"Camerupt needs an evolution because its type would allow him to pose a serious threat to most common pokemon like Heatran, Celebi, Zapdos and Scizor, provided we enhance ts bulkyness"
"Golduck needs an evolution because, provided better stats/movepool, its ability Cloud Nine would be interesting in a weather-based metagame. Moreover, its moves would allow him to beat the 3 OU weather-inducing pokemon easily 1 on 1"

NON COMPETITIVE ARGUMENTS
"Delibird needs an evo. It has crap stats, a bad typing and a bad movepool. It is also completely outclassed by Articuno now that the legendary bird looms in the lower tiers"(The writer does not underline a hole in the OU metagame which Delibird would already be able to fill with minor changes)
"Girafarig needs an evo. It has a unique typing and Baton Pass so that it could compete pretty well in OU with the right stats" (unique typing is a selling point which could be extended to many other UUs - hell, even to Magcargo!^^. And, BTW, there is nothing Girafarig can BP which has not its OU BPer - Celebi for CM, Gliscor for Agility/Rock Polish)

Hope you got the point

@Gorm: thanks, you spared me a quote^^ good point bass

these examples/this proposal are real good places to start imo. great post. its just alot of work for the TL so id agree on having TL helpers for this kind of tallying

 

[TVboyCanti]

So everyone who wasted their vote without thinking gets to completely bog down this project. That flies in the face of the democratic process. One Person, One Vote! You waste it, tough luck, wait for the next election, you don't get to take it back.

This is only EVO project number 1 people, not The Last EVO Project Ever! Make your case in EVO 2, and give Farfetch'd his term in office.

This is the kind of democratic process that got America stuck in Iraq.

I would also like to clarify that Sabotage has nothing to do with making something better, it is the deliberate and malicious act of slowly and clandestinely disrupting and undermining of an endeavor. Antonyms of Sabotage are fix, help, and assist.

 

[Buckles]

I would just like to point out that Camerupt is going to need a fairly hefty boost in stats, maybe not to the extent of Farfetch'd, but every stat, except maybe speed, is gonna need a boost. Still, I chose redo, because I felt, during the concept discussion, the arguments, compliments, theorizing, etc. for/about Farfy drowned out most discussion for other ideas. Sure Houndoom almost won in the last poll, but a lot those votes were probably part of an ABF campaign (Anything But Farfetch'd). Personally, I don't really like the idea of a Camerupt evolution, but I would prefer more discussion for other ideas as the whole process seemed slightly rushed to me.

EDIT: Just adding that all these comparisons to the American election and to the Constitutional Democratic process are really not helping the discussion. To compare a vote for a government to a vote for an hypothetical pokemon evolution is absurd.

 

[gorm]

So everyone who wasted their vote without thinking gets to completely bog down this project. That flies in the face of the democratic process. One Person, One Vote! You waste it, tough luck, wait for the next election, you don't get to take it back.

more like if you want to protest the way these votes are being conducted you should be ble to

This is only EVO project number 1 people, not The Last EVO Project Ever! Make your case in EVO 2, and give Farfetch'd his term in office.

fetchd is bad for this project. disagree with me if you want to but you better have some reasoning.
why would i not try and stop the project going down if i truely feel its not going to bring anything useful besides another cap

This is the kind of democratic process that got America stuck in Iraq.

ok whatever

I would also like to clarify that Sabotage has nothing to do with making something better, it is the deliberate and malicious act of slowly and clandestinely disrupting and undermining something. Antonyms of Sabotage are fix, help, and assist.

semantics. sabotaging a bad process with the goal of making it better is good. disagree with me.

I would just like to point out that Camerupt is going to need a fairly hefty boost in stats, maybe not to the extent of Farfetch'd, but every stat, except maybe speed, is gonna need a boost.

yeah thats all debatable but youre mostly right. i dont see a problem with that though.

Still, I chose redo, because I felt, during the concept discussion, the arguments, compliments, theorizing, etc. for/about Farfy drowned out most discussion for other ideas. Sure Houndoom almost won in the last poll, but a lot those votes were probably part of an ABF campaign (Anything But Farfetch'd). Personally, I don't really like the idea of a Camerupt evolution, but I would prefer more discussion for other ideas as the whole process seemed slightly rushed to me.

yeah the ABF is a good argument. we should be basing our votes of *anything but a bad idea*. they should be based on *good idea vs better idea*

 

[zarator]

@TVboy: It was not my intention to negate to someone who did not a legitimate submission to negate another chance. I apologize if the content of my proposal sounded like that. Moreover, the accuse of anti-democracy is almost absurd. CAP is not Obama vs McCain. It is a very specialistic project which require some metagame knowledge to be understood. I cant think to how i could defend the right of newbies - in the least offensive sense of the word, i just want to mean the less experienced people - to vote and weight on such an important project. I could be as if we gave to an engineer the right to express a vote in favor or against the innocence of a person in a trial

@Buckles: the most important thing is not change the pokemon to evolve. It is change the spirit of the community. If the community becomes more mature and found competitively clever arguments in favor of a Farfetch'd evolution - well, i'd love that

 

[Crossfiyah]

When did Pokemon stop being fun, exactly?

 

[zfs]

Also, people seem to think that Camerupt will win automatically, which simply isn't true. Hell, I'm actually thinking of stumping for something like Lanturn.

We're not trying to replace Farfy with Camerupt wholesale. We're trying to get people to follow a process like the one zarator outlined. Making people post a valid justification for their vote isn't elitism, it's common sense.

 

[zarator]

When did Pokemon stop being fun, exactly?

Fun and fanboysh are two different things. I like chess, and i think a chess match is fun, but it is a serious play backed by deep reasonings.

If you dont find this fun, go on Serebii or elsewhere and have fun

 

[Lorak]

When did Pokemon stop being fun, exactly?

Hello, and welcome to competitive play. Using the Pokemon you brought with you during your journey? TOO BAD. No one wants them, they're horribly trained from fighting random things, they probably have a bad attitude, and your moveset is horrible. You should just release them into the wild and never play again.