EVOlution 1 - Part 2 - Pokémon Poll 2!

[Morm]

Voted houndoom. How can I not? He's so badass and just needs a hint more speed to be devastating with a nasty plot and sub/salac set.

Though the sprites for a bannette evo would be alot more fun.

 

[Frosty]

Thats great that Ninetales can do that, and its faster, but its UU and we aren't evolving it.

Exactly, it is UU. If ninetales is that good if compared to houndoom (not better, though) and it is UU...that tells you a lot about Houndoom's power, don't you think?

What does physical bulkyness have to do with sweeping? Its not supposed to take a hit if you want to raise the speed. If you want to make it bulky, don't raise the speed.

It raises the possibility of surviving a weaker hit, and one more turn alive = 1 extra nasty plot or 1 extra attack. Also, you don't need to mess with speed to make your poke bulky enough for you purposes. Skiddle's Porygon-z, for example, is EV'd to not have its substitute broken by Blissey without Seismic Toss by removing EVs from special attack. It is possible because its Spatk is high enough without those EVs and it has enough bulk to allow that (two qualities that Houndoom does not possess...or at least not in the same level). Just an example.

Alakazam is easily killed by any half-decent physical attack. So is Dugtrio. So is Gengar. What you don't get is that it DOES perform decently in the standard tier.

All three don't need to survive a hit in the first place because they will go first more often than not. This is a very important thing. If you can outspeed the common threats you will face, you don't really need to be bulky...especially if the poke is powerful as well, but that is obvious and you know it. Houndoom is NOT fast like that. 95 may be nice for UU, but the number of base 100 pokes is quite big at the ou tier and any scarfer is capable of outrunning it, really. Also, Alakazam has trick and the devastating encore to make sure that it will get some boosts; Gengar has hypnosis, trick, all those resistances and is fast enough to switch in against an Earthquake and use hypnosis before the opponent even scratches it, and Dugtrio is made to OHKO certain threats, disabling them from switching...it isn't made to sweep. Houndoom does have two nice immunities, but it is doomed (lol) if the opponent isn't choiced or slow.

I doubt you've tried any set of Houndooms, because if you did, you would know its actually a VERY good mixed Scarfer, Nasty Plotter, or even Specs.

Nope, I haven't. But why would I? If I want a fire-type mixed sweeper, I will just use Infernape, if I want a flash fire abuser I use Heatran, if I want a special sweeper I use Azelf or Alakazam or Gengar or Skymin. Houndoom does have its advantage and a lot of potential (or else I wouldn't support an evolution), but there is no reason to take advantage of its great type coverage when there are better pokes. I admit that I don't have experience with it, though, so I apologize if I said something stupid here.

Can Heatran go mixed? Can Heatran switch in on psychic attacks? It still has a niche, which means that it CAN perform well in the standard tier. Arguably, Shedinja can't perform in the standard tier due to Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Sandstorm. We should give it an evolution!

1)Heatran has the same attack as Houndoom and some physical attacks like Iron Head, Fire Fang, Explosion and Earthquake. The only reason it isn't used mixed is that would be a royal waste of potential.

2)Heatran is, I believe, the second poke with more immunities/resistances (losing only to magnezone) and is quite bulky. It may not be immune, but it sure receives a laughable amount of damage from psychic attacks.

3) Of course Houndoom has a niche. Don't get me wrong, I know that, or else I wouldn't support its evolution for the same reason I don't support Farfetch'd. The problem is that, unless you make a team especially for houndoom (and the same applies to shedinja and several other UU/BL pokes), the disadvantages of not using Heatran or Azelf or Infernape outweighs the advantages of Houndoom's type advantages more often than not. And, like I said, my mentality here is that "if it isn't powerful enough to be used properly (or constantly if you want a more objective parameter), it deserves to be evolved". But that is my humble opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, define decently in a non-subjective way.

It isn't even close to the OU-list. The least used OU poke (Roserade) is used more than twice as much as Houndoom. That must be for a reason, don't you think?


Either way, you are 100% right about something here. I haven't used Houndoom and, even though theorymon have its uses, it isn't very reliable. I will test some houndoom sets on my teams and see if my opinion changes until the end of this/next poll. But I doubt it will.

 

[tennisace]

Exactly, it is UU. If ninetales is that good if compared to houndoom (not better, though) and it is UU...that tells you a lot about Houndoom's power, don't you think?

Ninetales has much less special attack and attack than Houndoom, in addition to a lesser STAB, and basically it only has Hypnosis and 5 Speed points over Houndoom. Not much really, since its bulkyness never comes into play really.

It raises the possibility of surviving a weaker hit, and one more turn alive = 1 extra nasty plot or 1 extra attack. Also, you don't need to mess with speed to make your poke bulky enough for you purposes. Skiddle's Porygon-z, for example, is EV'd to not have its substitute broken by Blissey without Seismic Toss by removing EVs from special attack. It is possible because its Spatk is high enough without those EVs and it has enough bulk to allow that (two qualities that Houndoom does not possess...or at least not in the same level). Just an example.

All three don't need to survive a hit in the first place because they will go first more often than not. This is a very important thing. If you can outspeed the common threats you will face, you don't really need to be bulky...especially if the poke is powerful as well, but that is obvious and you know it. Houndoom is NOT fast like that. 95 may be nice for UU, but the number of base 100 pokes is quite big at the ou tier and any scarfer is capable of outrunning it, really. Also, Alakazam has trick and the devastating encore to make sure that it will get some boosts; Gengar has hypnosis, trick, all those resistances and is fast enough to switch in against an Earthquake and use hypnosis before the opponent even scratches it, and Dugtrio is made to OHKO certain threats, disabling them from switching...it isn't made to sweep. Houndoom does have two nice immunities, but it is doomed (lol) if the opponent isn't choiced or slow.

I somewhat agree, but still, thats about all you would do to Houndoom, a stat tweak. I don't feel that its going to be a very fun project. An NU evolution would be more fun, since there is more room for creativity.

Nope, I haven't. But why would I? If I want a fire-type mixed sweeper, I will just use Infernape, if I want a flash fire abuser I use Heatran, if I want a special sweeper I use Azelf or Alakazam or Gengar or Skymin. Houndoom does have its advantage and a lot of potential (or else I wouldn't support an evolution), but there is no reason to take advantage of its great type coverage when there are better pokes. I admit that I don't have experience with it, though, so I apologize if I said something stupid here.

Lets go over it again: Nasty Plot, Pretty fast, Possibility to go Mixed. There are better Pokemon, but sometimes they just don't fit.

1)Heatran has the same attack as Houndoom and some physical attacks like Iron Head, Fire Fang, Explosion and Earthquake. The only reason it isn't used mixed is that would be a royal waste of potential.

2)Heatran is, I believe, the second poke with more immunities/resistances (losing only to magnezone) and is quite bulky. It may not be immune, but it sure receives a laughable amount of damage from psychic attacks.

Touche.

3) Of course Houndoom has a niche. Don't get me wrong, I know that, or else I wouldn't support its evolution for the same reason I don't support Farfetch'd. The problem is that, unless you make a team especially for houndoom (and the same applies to shedinja and several other UU/BL pokes), the disadvantages of not using Heatran or Azelf or Infernape outweighs the advantages of Houndoom's type advantages more often than not. And, like I said, my mentality here is that "if it isn't powerful enough to be used properly (or constantly if you want a more objective parameter), it deserves to be evolved". But that is my humble opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

Its powerful enough to be used consistantly on its own. Its just that there are other pokemon that are used consistantly on their own more.

It isn't even close to the OU-list. The least used OU poke (Roserade) is used more than twice as much as Houndoom. That must be for a reason, don't you think?

That has nothing to do with performing decently, obviously more people would be using it if it was more powerful, but the fact remains that it performs quite well in OU.

 

[AlchemistVL]

*.* I want a Giraf evo!! :3

 

[ParadOxymoron]

If it comes down to Farfetch'd and Houndoom, I'm going to vote for Farfetch'd, because Houndoom has enough already.

 

[gorm]

^lol

if farfechtd wins by one please count my vote for double

 

[oshada]

woot! my vote brings houndoom into the lead :)

For those who believe that Houndoom is good as it is, look at Electabuzz, Rhydon and Dusclops. They all have base stat totals similar to Houndooms, and before the evolutions from DPP, they were also UU/OU/BL. All three evolutions are not going to overpower the metagame like Skymin or Scizor, but they can very well make you pay when you're unprepared. I believe this is the type role that we would want our first EVO to be.
Electabuzz, Rhydon, and Dusclops can be effective in OU but not effective enough to make them pay for being unprepared. Houndoom CAN be effective, but it just needs a little more in order to make an impact on the metagame.
Electivire is famous for hitting 13 of 17 types for SE damage, alongside great attacking stats and a means to increase his good speed via Motor Drive. Rhyperior is a force to be reckoned with, especially with Sandstorm and specially defensive EVs and natures. It can take hits and hit you back with its amazing attack stat. Dusknoir replaces Dusclops as a rapid spin blocker, and the increased stats definitely help.
All of these evolutions aren't "necessary" for these Pokemon to be great, but it definitely helps.

Exactly. Hit the nail on the head there mate.

 

[gorm]

eh i would have eben happy to see a camperut evo.. we need more mons that can fuck with zapdos ;_;

 

[DougJustDoug]

The EVO project is not trying to create a new pokemon from scratch. We have CAP projects for that. We are EVOLVING a pokemon. Yes, there are lots of ways to evolve a pokemon. But very few evolutions are "Magikarp-Gyarados" style -- where the evolution is essentially a completely new pokemon from the original. If we want to make a "Gyarados-style" evolution -- then why are we screwing around with it in the EVO project? Just make a new pokemon in a CAP project. It's a lot easier, and it doesn't attract as many fanboys.

The EVO project should be different than a CAP project. It should be MUCH shorter and simpler. Make some stat changes, tweak the movepool, and come up with new art and name -- Bam! you're done.

That's an evolution.

Making a completely new pokemon with new typing, a new role in the metagame, new stats, new movepools, new art -- NEW EVERYTHING -- that is what we do when we CREATE-A-POKEMON. We aren't doing that here. At least I hope we aren't. If the EVO project is just going to be a regular CAP project with more fanboys and more flavor arguments -- then why the heck are we doing it?

Evolving Farfetch'd into a Flying/Fighting badass -- is no different than making a new pokemon from scratch. Evolving Houndoom will involve a few key changes to make an also-ran-but-barely-usable pokemon into a legit OU threat.

That's an evolution. That is a project that would set this apart from the regular CAP projects. If we do Farfetch'd, we might as well name the project "CAP 6".

 

[Cartoons!]

I would have liked to have seen a Camerupt evo too.

How many people, I wonder, who are voting for Farfetch'd, are actually going to get around to playing on the CAP server to watch their creation find itself in a niche already taken by either Togekiss or Staraptor, two Pokemon that already make effective use of the Flying/Fighting combo?

 

[beej]

I went with Girafarig this time. I will admit to it being a favorite of mine, but I also think that its generally balanced stats are a blessing, as we can effectively put it to a vast variety of roles without being limited - provided we're not doing a Gyara-like evolution. Normal/Psychic is only weak to Dark and it gets an immunity to Ghost without the nasty Fighting weakness, and I would like to see it being taken advantage of in OU.

However at this point it looks like it'll be a choice between Houndoom and Farfetch'd. I don't like them particularly much because we're very limited in what we do with Houndoom and the duck is basically just another CAP project, only we're arbitrarily making it a "Farfetch'd evo".

 

[moot]

I casted my vote for Farfetch'd.

 

[oshada]

woot! my vote brings houndoom into the lead :)

For those who believe that Houndoom is good as it is, look at Electabuzz, Rhydon and Dusclops. They all have base stat totals similar to Houndooms, and before the evolutions from DPP, they were also UU/OU/BL. All three evolutions are not going to overpower the metagame like Skymin or Scizor, but they can very well make you pay when you're unprepared. I believe this is the type role that we would want our first EVO to be.
Electabuzz, Rhydon, and Dusclops can be effective in OU but not effective enough to make them pay for being unprepared. Houndoom CAN be effective, but it just needs a little more in order to make an impact on the metagame.
Electivire is famous for hitting 13 of 17 types for SE damage, alongside great attacking stats and a means to increase his good speed via Motor Drive. Rhyperior is a force to be reckoned with, especially with Sandstorm and specially defensive EVs and natures. It can take hits and hit you back with its amazing attack stat. Dusknoir replaces Dusclops as a rapid spin blocker, and the increased stats definitely help.
All of these evolutions aren't "necessary" for these Pokemon to be great, but it definitely helps.

Exactly. Hit the nail on the head there mate.

 

[zarator]

The EVO project is not trying to create a new pokemon from scratch. We have CAP projects for that. We are EVOLVING a pokemon. Yes, there are lots of ways to evolve a pokemon. But very few evolutions are "Magikarp-Gyarados" style -- where the evolution is essentially a completely new pokemon from the original. If we want to make a "Gyarados-style" evolution -- then why are we screwing around with it in the EVO project? Just make a new pokemon in a CAP project. It's a lot easier, and it doesn't attract as many fanboys.

The EVO project should be different than a CAP project. It should be MUCH shorter and simpler. Make some stat changes, tweak the movepool, and come up with new art and name -- Bam! you're done.

That's an evolution.

Making a completely new pokemon with new typing, a new role in the metagame, new stats, new movepools, new art -- NEW EVERYTHING -- that is what we do when we CREATE-A-POKEMON. We aren't doing that here. At least I hope we aren't. If the EVO project is just going to be a regular CAP project with more fanboys and more flavor arguments -- then why the heck are we doing it?

Evolving Farfetch'd into a Flying/Fighting badass -- is no different than making a new pokemon from scratch. Evolving Houndoom will involve a few key changes to make an also-ran-but-barely-usable pokemon into a legit OU threat.

That's an evolution. That is a project that would set this apart from the regular CAP projects. If we do Farfetch'd, we might as well name the project "CAP 6".

Totally agree with DJD (and gone with Houndoom again). I cant see how you can define 95 base speed even remotely decent in OU, tennis. Look at the OU list. Sweepers with less than 100 base speed have always one of these traits:

1) Perfect type coverage along with a good bulkyness and a neat attack which make them hard-hitting Choice Banders/Scarfers, impossible to counter without prediction (Machamp, Heatran, Gallade, Heracross, Electivire and Tyranitar, Metagross to an extent)

2) Have a way to fix their speed by either priority moves or Speed-boosting moves (Scizor, Metagross, Dragonite, Mamoswine, Gyarados, Kingdra, Lucario, Porygon-Z, Electivire, Yanmega)

3) Have some neat tricks like Sleep inducing moves, Paraflinch or particular abilities ( Breloom, Togekiss, Roserade )

Now, which category Houndoom should belong to?
Of course not 1, with a 75/50/80 defensive layout and 4 weaknesses, 2 of which very common (Ground, Fighting).
But not also 2, because its only priority move, Sucker Punch, is unreliable and works from an unimpressive 90 attack stat without SD to boost it. And of course, Houndoom doesnt have Agility, Rock Polish or Dragon Dance...
And, finally, Will-o-Wisp is its only status move, Early Bird is useless because its too frail and Flash Fire is overshadowed by Heatran. So it does not definitely belong to the 3rd category.

If we would boost its speed to, say, 110 or even 115 speed, it would be able to threaten much more heavily the opponent, even if things like Blissey, Heatran, Blaziken/Infernape and Snorlax (barring Will-o-Wisp) as wella s Bulky Waters still wall him decently without a twist to both his attacking stats and his movepool (it sorely needs a fighting move not named Reversal or Hidden Power to stand a chance against most of its counters, because it will need HP ice for dragons already). At least, it would be able to scare off things like Celebi and friends and NP on the switch. Probably it would be OU even without a fighting move, but it still needs that stat twist badly.

@Tennis: sorry, but what sort of niche would fill Farfetch'd? There are alreasy Togekiss, Salamence, Dragonite and Gliscor for your bulky Flying type needs. I would have supported a thing like Xatu as you suggested in that example some threads before, but this Farfy supporting goes completely against what you stated. This is disappointing.

 

[Infiltrator]

Farfetch'd and Houndoom are battling it out. Still supporting Farfetch'd.

 

[Jimbo]

All of these are cool ideas, voted Pinsir though since I feel sorry for it :(

I just had a thought last night. If you guys ever do another EVO project, consider Lanturn. You could make a more offensive version (P2 -> P-Z), maybe with Motor Drive. It'd be really cool imo.

 

[Blu Draco]

Voted: girafarig

Because of them all it has the most potential,
No matter what anyone says, farfetched evo is bound to be a clone of staraptor with swords dance, the only way to solve it would to make it special based, which then ruins all it's potential with SD CC and BB,

Houndoom i'd like to see win if girafarig doesn't, since it has a nice type combo, good stats, and needs an evo with a wider special movepool.

Girafarig has unique type, has a very unique sprite, with no other pokemon looking even close to it, so it's evo could be played with and look very unique, a great movepool, with many options, Phy sweeper, Sp. Sweeper, and Baton passing are all viable, all it needs is a stat boost, which an evo can give it.

 

[shade]

Voted Farfetch'd because Houndoom is already viable (being BL for fucks sake) in OU so it shouldn't get an evo whereas Fetch'd is condemned to being well.. shit competitively.

 

[Objection]

Voted Farfetch'd because Houndoom is already viable (being BL for fucks sake) in OU so it shouldn't get an evo whereas Fetch'd is condemned to being well.. shit competitively.

But like people before have said, what will Fetch'd's evo do that no other OU flying type can? At least Houndoom's evo could become a fire type version of Weavile, only mixed/special instead of purely physical, and it wouldn't require anywhere near as much change as an evo for Fetch'd. At feasible best, the new Fetch'd evo could possibly be a UU Staraptor, but this EVO project isn't for the UU metagame.

 

[Captain Falcon]

went with houndoom. Whilst it is already BL, it has so much potential to be a top contender that i couldn't really turn it down.

 

[Zoro]

Girafarig for me, but looks like it doesnt get enough support, so I hope Houndoom wins.

 

[assassinfred]

Voted For Pinsir. IMO, Pinsir is the most deserving of an EVO here (Kinda sad Castform didn't make it, but, oh well). Pinsir has been around since R/B/Y, and it's counterpart, Scyther, got an EVO in G/S/C. Pinsir is also constantly overshadowed by Heracross, and I would like to see it get the credit it deserves. I like the idea of a Bug/Ground type with Mold Breaker, as someone mentioned in the previous poll, mostly because Bug and Ground are my two favourite types, and all I have to combine them is Wormadam-G :(. This is not the only reason, Bug/Ground could be a very effective type combination, and, with Mold Breaker, could take out things like Levitate Bronzong and Rotom very easily.

 

[DiglettX3]

So 95 is below average? News to me. Electrivire does just fine with a base 95 speed stat, as does Gliscor. The big kicker is that it functions fine in OU. What more could you give it, base 115 speed? Big whoop, you now beat non-scarf Gengar, Celebi, and Jirachi. It has Nasty Plot along with a competant movepool. Its a tweak, not an evolution. I wouldn't support ANY spread with over 115 speed and/or special attack, because of Nasty Plot. Don't give me the Azelf arguement either: it has shitty STAB.

I was saying that 95 is low for the role of "Frail Sweeper" that Houndoom is supposed to fill. Gliscor has it's defence, Sand Veil, and the fact that most expect it to be defencive gives it extra set-up time. Houndoom is almost always seen as a NP set-up, or a Scarf. Both are basically countered by Heatran, especially Scarf versions. Electrivire can switch into an Electric attack and speed up to 433. If E-vire didn't have that ability, it would be basically in the same predicament. And I only would support a slight boost, like Weavile. Maybe bump it up to 105 speed, a tier not really seen for speed. And throw it's Sp Att and Att up a little, to make a scarf version more powerful.

Houndoom was meant to have 110 SpA and 95 Spe. Syclant, Revenankh, Pyroak, Fidgit, and Stratagem aren't meant to exist. If Nintendo wants to correct their mistakes, then they can in the next generation. You can't just say "We shouldn't do X because Nintendo didn't intend for it to be that way.", because Nintendo didn't intend for the CAP project as a whole. Any one of those would be a perfectly viable evolution. Theres a ton of room for improvement, which makes the project more fun IMO. Houndoom doesn't have much room for improvement, which is why I didn't want to include BL Pokemon originally (and depending on how this turns out, I might try to change it).

That comment was meant to be a joke. Otherwise I would completely be against any evolution or CAP project. And Houndoom has a boatload of improvement needed. The defence is a joke, coupled with the SR weakness, as stated previously, the below average speed (For a sweeper) and bad physical movepool. And just because a poke is BL doesn't mean it can't be improved upon. Houndoom is over-powered for UU, but is underpowered for OU.

 

[Urza]

the thing is, evolving houndoom won't really do anything for the metagame. we already have pokemon that are just fine in its role with similar typing. evolving farfetch'd into a fighting/flying type does add something to the metagame. it's not making a pokemon from scratch, the major difference that would happen with farfetch'd is a potential typing change. it doesn't need massive stat changes...set it somewhere between toxicroak and gallade, and we're set. houndoom just feels like it's selling the whole project short. its superfluous, just as rhyperior and dusknoir were. without those evolutions, rhydon and dusclops would still likely be BL or OU because they fill needed roles in the metagame. houndoom is BL already, and an evolution would only end up OU on the CAP later because people come to CAP to use CAP pokes. i'm fine with a lot of pokes getting evolved, but houndoom is one of the ones that just doesn't need it.

 

[Objection]

it's not making a pokemon from scratch, the major difference that would happen with farfetch'd is a potential typing change. it doesn't need massive stat changes...set it somewhere between toxicroak and gallade, and we're set.

To reach that level, base speed would have to go up 20 and base attack at least 45, and you're saying it's not going to need massive stat changes?