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Faladran's Apprentice (OU Gen4)-closed
- Thread starter bnhershy
- Start date
Anti lead Gengar is really good, however icy wind is really useless. There are only 3 common leads faster than Gengar (Starmie/Azelf/Aerodactyl). Aerodactyl is really unommon these days, and will most likely set up rocks turn 1, which you cannot prevent.
Against azelf (1):
Azelf uses Pyshchic
Gengar uses Icy wind
(Gengar @ 1%, Azelf @ 80%), azelf switches out to gengar counter) You loose
Against azelf (2)
Azelf uses stealth rock
Gengar uses icy wind
(Gengar @ 100%, Azelf @ 80%, azelf switches out to a gengar counter) You loose again
Its generally much better to shadow ball azelf for 2 reasons, firstly azelf can switch out after beeing icy winded. 2ndly alot of azelf don't have a focus sash these days.
Against Starmie they commonly hold a life orb, so shadow ball will OHKO.
For this reason I would not use icy wind, it is a terrible imo. Counter makes a much better choice, enabling you to beat lead machamp and lead metagross. It also helps against pursuit Scizor if your sash is still intact.
Alternatively you could use destiny bond, that works well with taunt, however counter is more reliable.
With Gengar now beating machamp, you can change metagross to an agility metagross giving you a potent sweeper (giving stealth rocks to heatran). As this is an offensive team, rest is not a good idea on snorlax and Earthquake/Self destruct would be much better.
On Brelloom leech seed is terrible, against a faster opponents he will normally just loose if they can do over 75% to Brelloom, (which is normally the case). Seed bomb/Stone edge would be much better choices. Leech seed Brelloom is also flawed by the U-turn + Ghost tactic.
Hope I helped
Against azelf (1):
Azelf uses Pyshchic
Gengar uses Icy wind
(Gengar @ 1%, Azelf @ 80%), azelf switches out to gengar counter) You loose
Against azelf (2)
Azelf uses stealth rock
Gengar uses icy wind
(Gengar @ 100%, Azelf @ 80%, azelf switches out to a gengar counter) You loose again
Its generally much better to shadow ball azelf for 2 reasons, firstly azelf can switch out after beeing icy winded. 2ndly alot of azelf don't have a focus sash these days.
Against Starmie they commonly hold a life orb, so shadow ball will OHKO.
For this reason I would not use icy wind, it is a terrible imo. Counter makes a much better choice, enabling you to beat lead machamp and lead metagross. It also helps against pursuit Scizor if your sash is still intact.
Alternatively you could use destiny bond, that works well with taunt, however counter is more reliable.
With Gengar now beating machamp, you can change metagross to an agility metagross giving you a potent sweeper (giving stealth rocks to heatran). As this is an offensive team, rest is not a good idea on snorlax and Earthquake/Self destruct would be much better.
On Brelloom leech seed is terrible, against a faster opponents he will normally just loose if they can do over 75% to Brelloom, (which is normally the case). Seed bomb/Stone edge would be much better choices. Leech seed Brelloom is also flawed by the U-turn + Ghost tactic.
Hope I helped
Unfortunately its late for me so I can't do a full rate right now, if you haven't had some more comments in the morning I'd be glad to do one then because I like this team quite a lot.
I will say that against stronger players Icy Wind Gengar isn't often as good as it sounds because most players will simply switch straight out after the first turn. However, lower down the ladder it does work pretty well and its still an okay choice regardless.
I will say that against stronger players Icy Wind Gengar isn't often as good as it sounds because most players will simply switch straight out after the first turn. However, lower down the ladder it does work pretty well and its still an okay choice regardless.
The main threats to this team are stall and Swords Dance Lucario. A well played stall team will beat you fairly easily, especially if it is utilizing Celebi to ward off Breloom. This is very easy to fix, though. Try running Hidden Power Electric over Substitute on Heatran. Sub really only works with either Leftovers to recover lost health or even Life Orb to boost your attacks while easing prediction; Shuca Berry is there to take EQs from high health, and by lowering your health with Sub, the berry becomes useless since you'll be dying to any EQ that comes your way. HP Electric helps out great against stall, getting an easy surprise kill on the main Heatran check, Gyarados. I also recommend running Magma Storm over Fire Blast. This'll help you get the kill on Gyarados as well as Blissey; smart Gyara users will sometimes double switch to check for HP Electric. By utilizing Magma Storm's trapping ability, you don't give them that chance. It also helps against Blissey because you know they're not going to switch to Rotom-A in order to block Explosion.
Now that's the stall issue fixed but SD Luke remains worrying. It gets a free setup versus Snorlax and then can pretty much sweep through you with no effort. Gengar is your only check and it's a frail lead; not reliable at all. This is easy to fix though, simply use Mach Punch over Focus Punch on Breloom. Lucario users never expect it and simply use Close Combat expecting to be faster only to be taken out. I'd also shift the 20 speed EVs into attack to give it a bit more oomph; outspeeding Skarm really isn't doing you any favors because they like to run 92+ speed EVs nowadays, whereas your set is designed to outrun much slower variants, and shifting the EVs to outrun those fast Skarms means you lose a ton of bulk, one of the most appealing things about SubSeed Loom. That's all I got for you, good team and good luck.
Now that's the stall issue fixed but SD Luke remains worrying. It gets a free setup versus Snorlax and then can pretty much sweep through you with no effort. Gengar is your only check and it's a frail lead; not reliable at all. This is easy to fix though, simply use Mach Punch over Focus Punch on Breloom. Lucario users never expect it and simply use Close Combat expecting to be faster only to be taken out. I'd also shift the 20 speed EVs into attack to give it a bit more oomph; outspeeding Skarm really isn't doing you any favors because they like to run 92+ speed EVs nowadays, whereas your set is designed to outrun much slower variants, and shifting the EVs to outrun those fast Skarms means you lose a ton of bulk, one of the most appealing things about SubSeed Loom. That's all I got for you, good team and good luck.
I stopped by because I saw my name.
Anyway, thanks for the mention! The original example team wasn't bad, but it's outdated and was targeted towards beginners. HP Electric on Heatran is definitely helpful against stall, so give that a try. I'm not a fan of Magma Storm's accuracy, but it's worth trying out; you might end up preferring it. Another option is Timid LO + Taunt, which can put a lot of pressure on both stall and offense. Snorlax is an excellent Heatran counter, so the loss of Shuca doesn't matter much.
Also, I'd recommend Body Slam and Fire Punch as your attacking moves on Snorlax. Body Slam's paralysis is more useful than the slight power boost Return provides, especially after you've gotten some Curses in. Fire Punch has been the best secondary attack in terms of type coverage, at least in my experience. You can even use it to hit Lucario switch-ins with a little prediction.
Anyway, thanks for the mention! The original example team wasn't bad, but it's outdated and was targeted towards beginners. HP Electric on Heatran is definitely helpful against stall, so give that a try. I'm not a fan of Magma Storm's accuracy, but it's worth trying out; you might end up preferring it. Another option is Timid LO + Taunt, which can put a lot of pressure on both stall and offense. Snorlax is an excellent Heatran counter, so the loss of Shuca doesn't matter much.
Also, I'd recommend Body Slam and Fire Punch as your attacking moves on Snorlax. Body Slam's paralysis is more useful than the slight power boost Return provides, especially after you've gotten some Curses in. Fire Punch has been the best secondary attack in terms of type coverage, at least in my experience. You can even use it to hit Lucario switch-ins with a little prediction.
Hey again :)
I like Faladran's suggestion of Trapper Heatran since it would work incredibly well against the standard stall seen nowadays which relies on Gyarados to handle Breloom.
However I'd still like to see a more definite check to SD Lucario, and maybe Breloom as well. One thing you could definitely try, although I'm fairly sure you won't be too happy with it :) , is a fast Celebi in place of Breloom. This gives you a better way to handle Gyarados and things like CM Suicune, which are both checked kind of tenuously, as well as Lucario and Breloom. Its still not as solid as I'd like against Lucario but if you run enough speed to beat Adamant Lucario and put the rest in HP and defense +2 Espeed won't get close to a KO and you can hit him in return with Earth Power / Hidden Power / TWave etc. There are a couple of options for the last moveslot ( Grass Knot / Recover /EarthPower or HP Fire / ???), like Thunder Wave and Leech Seed, both of which are pretty helpful for you.
Edit: That spread is 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe Bold, which means you take 46-54.2% from +2 Adamant Extremespeed and outspeed.
Breloom with Mach Punch can work, but at higher levels most people would still Extremespeed; and you're going to have to sac one pokemon to get it in safely vs Lucario.
The other option is running Earthquake / fighting move on Snorlax, which lets you lure Lucario and take it out straight away. This also helps against Heatran, which can actually set up on your Snorlax if it carries Taunt.
Anyway, this is a pretty nice team so I don't want to change too much. Good luck!
I like Faladran's suggestion of Trapper Heatran since it would work incredibly well against the standard stall seen nowadays which relies on Gyarados to handle Breloom.
However I'd still like to see a more definite check to SD Lucario, and maybe Breloom as well. One thing you could definitely try, although I'm fairly sure you won't be too happy with it :) , is a fast Celebi in place of Breloom. This gives you a better way to handle Gyarados and things like CM Suicune, which are both checked kind of tenuously, as well as Lucario and Breloom. Its still not as solid as I'd like against Lucario but if you run enough speed to beat Adamant Lucario and put the rest in HP and defense +2 Espeed won't get close to a KO and you can hit him in return with Earth Power / Hidden Power / TWave etc. There are a couple of options for the last moveslot ( Grass Knot / Recover /EarthPower or HP Fire / ???), like Thunder Wave and Leech Seed, both of which are pretty helpful for you.
Edit: That spread is 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe Bold, which means you take 46-54.2% from +2 Adamant Extremespeed and outspeed.
Breloom with Mach Punch can work, but at higher levels most people would still Extremespeed; and you're going to have to sac one pokemon to get it in safely vs Lucario.
The other option is running Earthquake / fighting move on Snorlax, which lets you lure Lucario and take it out straight away. This also helps against Heatran, which can actually set up on your Snorlax if it carries Taunt.
Anyway, this is a pretty nice team so I don't want to change too much. Good luck!
Decent team, I have a couple suggestions. First, I highly suggest that you use Counter over Focus Blast. It beats Metagross and Machamp leads as well as pursuit/crunch users like Tyranitar, Snorlax and Scizor that switch in. Focus Blast is not reliable at all and is only better than counter in beating Heatran, assuming Heatran does not switch and Focus Blast actually hits. Focus Blast also beats tyranitar leads if they decide to use stealth rock first turn, but counter will work just fine first turn and then switch to breloom to get an early advantage. Next, if you are going to use a Gengar lead and a Curselax, why don't you use scarf Magnezone over Metagross? Gengar attracts steels all day, and, especially without counter, Magnezone can take advantage of this. Snorlax greatly appreciates steels out of the picture. I dont see Metagross doing a whole lot anyways besides using sr and checking some pokemon. The priority is nice but it is not required by any means with scarf flygon and scarf magnezone. Magnezone will help against bulky waters like offensive suicune as well, and you still get explosion to keep your opponents momentum down. I would give stealth rock to heatran over sub, it's a tough switch but substitute just eases prediction really and its not essential or anything. Also, scarf Magnezone checks Lucario, AND helps with stall, trapping the steels before they set up anything. I will agree with faladran's hp electric suggestion because no resttalk gyara is excellent for snorlax, however I'll have to disagree with fire punch. Both crunch and fire punch have pros and cons, but crunch is really needed for the ghosts in my opinion after a couple curses. Also giving a specs/lo tran a boost is not what you want.
Good team overall, it looks solid enough and easy to use.
Good team overall, it looks solid enough and easy to use.