Lol @ Mega Rayquaza with a Z-move. Talking about power...
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Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII
- Thread starter DHR-107
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I really hope that it needs to be an attack move to be able to use a Z-move not because of Wobb mind you (however, I'd like its gimmick to remain intact as well) but because it will help reduce the coverage that Z-moves provide as well as making it to get odder more worthwhile coverage that you "didn't" have before you have to run a weaker move. Like, having to run incinerate instead of Will-o-wisp. (random example not even sure if it applies to a pokemon) but from this you can see how a status move can in general be much more useful over all even after being used for a Z-move then a weak move that is pretty much there just for the one time super move.
Just you fuckers WAIT until this absolute menace gets to use an attacking move!!!
No one will be safe.
NO ONE.
Wobby would still get Fighting type and Psychic type coverage since neither Counter nor Mirror Coat are in the Status category.
General thoughts on the new Pokemon and forms:
Alola Exeggutor: I always loved exuggutor due to its decent design, stats, and movepool. However, with each passing generation, it just seemed to be getting worse and worse despite getting large movepool buffs. Hopefully Exeggutor's Alola form gives it a new lease on life. Design-wise, I think Alola Exeggutor is pretty good due to it displaying more palm tree-like qualities than its original form, while still keeping its charm. Its new typing is only slightly better defensively than regular Exeggutor due to having fewer resistences in exchange for fewer weaknesses. Offensively, Exeggutor's typing is a lot better. Like with Psychic STAB, Dragon STAB compliments Exeggutor's grass-typing nicely due to hitting most Grass resist neutrally or super effectively. However, Dragon STAB is much harder to switch in too than psychic type STAB due to the much higher BP of Dragon-type moves and the typing in general having fewer resistances. Hopefully Exeggutor learns moves like Outrage and Dragon Pulse naturally to match its new typing. Regardless of how good it turns out, I'm definitely using Exeggutor on my In game team.
Alola Sandslash: Sandslash is one of those Pokemon I always wanted to use, but I usually refrained myself from doing so due to so many better ground-types existing. However, with its Alola form's new typing, I feel it may be worth looking into again. Design wise, I think Alola Sandslash looks great. Its more icicle like quails and clearer body look really nice. I also love how Alola Sandshrew's head looks like an igloo. Its new typing seems to be better defensively. While Alola Sandslash does have 2 crippling 4x weaknesses to Fire and Fighting in addition to a weaknesses to ground, it also comes with 8 pretty good resistences and 1 immunity. Offensively its typing is also good, probably better than vanilla Sandslash due to Ice having much better coverage than Ground overall. Hopefully Sandslash also gets to keep EQ due to the combination of Ice and Ground having few resistances. Also hoping that Sandslash gets Ice Shard to patch up its supposedly lowered speed.
Alola Ninetales: Never really liked Ninetales despite its excellent movepool so I never used it in game. Alola Ninetales genuinely seems much more interesting than default Ninetales so I may give it another shot. Its new design genuinely looks amazing. It looks so much more majestic, yet menacing than default Ninetales due to its new blue eyes and snow colored fur. I believe it was inspired by one of the earlier mystery Dungeon games where you encounter a Ninetales on a snowy mountain. Its typing defensively seems to be worse than default Ninetales. While it does gain some notable immunities/resistances to Dragon and Dark, it gains some major weaknesses as well, such as a 4x weakness to Steel in addition to fire and poison weaknesses while also maintaining its SR weakness. Offensively, I feel Alola Ninetales's typing is overall much better than vanilla Ninetales, though its STAB combination is pretty redundant. Hoping that Gamefreak lets Ninetales keep Heat Wave or Flamethrower to deal with Steel types.
Oricorio: Really like how this Pokemon changes its typing to match its Dancing Style. I personally really like the sensu form much more than the other forms due to its Ghost typing, but thats just me. I think that its ability could give it a ton of potential against the numerous setup sweepers that Utilize moves like quiver or Dragon Dance, but it will need to have some really good stats in order to make use of these dance moves effects.
Minor: As a person who was a fan of the Zen Mode mechanic in the gen 5 games, I think I will enjoy using these Pokemon in ingame battles. I'm not a huge fan of its design however, though I like how it loses its astroid covering in order to become a star. If Zen Mode Darmanitan is anything to go by, I doubt it will have competitive use.
Gumshoos: While Yungoos beared only a minor resemblance to Trump, this Pokemon looks like it was flat out inspired by him, from that Haircut, to its battle animations, to its general posture. Personally, I really like that its much more patient than its pre-evolution. It reminds me of how adults are generally more patient than when they were children. Since its an early game rodent, I doubt that I will be using him at all.
Fomantis and Lurantis: As a huge fan of the first Mantis Pokemon, Scyther, I'm really glad that we are getting another one. Lurantis's design looks much more natural than Scyther due to its covered eyes. Its unique arm posture also makes it look very similar to mienshao. It looks much more feminine than Scyther, most likely due to its Pink coloration. Judging by its overview trailer and design, it seems as if this mon will be a physical attacker. Really hoping that its signature move, solar blade is a one turn charge move as opposed to a 2-turn charge move like solar beam. Really looking forward to using this mon in game.
Mudbray: Not much to say about this apart from the fact that its snout and color scheme looks similar to hippopotas.
Alola Exeggutor: I always loved exuggutor due to its decent design, stats, and movepool. However, with each passing generation, it just seemed to be getting worse and worse despite getting large movepool buffs. Hopefully Exeggutor's Alola form gives it a new lease on life. Design-wise, I think Alola Exeggutor is pretty good due to it displaying more palm tree-like qualities than its original form, while still keeping its charm. Its new typing is only slightly better defensively than regular Exeggutor due to having fewer resistences in exchange for fewer weaknesses. Offensively, Exeggutor's typing is a lot better. Like with Psychic STAB, Dragon STAB compliments Exeggutor's grass-typing nicely due to hitting most Grass resist neutrally or super effectively. However, Dragon STAB is much harder to switch in too than psychic type STAB due to the much higher BP of Dragon-type moves and the typing in general having fewer resistances. Hopefully Exeggutor learns moves like Outrage and Dragon Pulse naturally to match its new typing. Regardless of how good it turns out, I'm definitely using Exeggutor on my In game team.
Alola Sandslash: Sandslash is one of those Pokemon I always wanted to use, but I usually refrained myself from doing so due to so many better ground-types existing. However, with its Alola form's new typing, I feel it may be worth looking into again. Design wise, I think Alola Sandslash looks great. Its more icicle like quails and clearer body look really nice. I also love how Alola Sandshrew's head looks like an igloo. Its new typing seems to be better defensively. While Alola Sandslash does have 2 crippling 4x weaknesses to Fire and Fighting in addition to a weaknesses to ground, it also comes with 8 pretty good resistences and 1 immunity. Offensively its typing is also good, probably better than vanilla Sandslash due to Ice having much better coverage than Ground overall. Hopefully Sandslash also gets to keep EQ due to the combination of Ice and Ground having few resistances. Also hoping that Sandslash gets Ice Shard to patch up its supposedly lowered speed.
Alola Ninetales: Never really liked Ninetales despite its excellent movepool so I never used it in game. Alola Ninetales genuinely seems much more interesting than default Ninetales so I may give it another shot. Its new design genuinely looks amazing. It looks so much more majestic, yet menacing than default Ninetales due to its new blue eyes and snow colored fur. I believe it was inspired by one of the earlier mystery Dungeon games where you encounter a Ninetales on a snowy mountain. Its typing defensively seems to be worse than default Ninetales. While it does gain some notable immunities/resistances to Dragon and Dark, it gains some major weaknesses as well, such as a 4x weakness to Steel in addition to fire and poison weaknesses while also maintaining its SR weakness. Offensively, I feel Alola Ninetales's typing is overall much better than vanilla Ninetales, though its STAB combination is pretty redundant. Hoping that Gamefreak lets Ninetales keep Heat Wave or Flamethrower to deal with Steel types.
Oricorio: Really like how this Pokemon changes its typing to match its Dancing Style. I personally really like the sensu form much more than the other forms due to its Ghost typing, but thats just me. I think that its ability could give it a ton of potential against the numerous setup sweepers that Utilize moves like quiver or Dragon Dance, but it will need to have some really good stats in order to make use of these dance moves effects.
Minor: As a person who was a fan of the Zen Mode mechanic in the gen 5 games, I think I will enjoy using these Pokemon in ingame battles. I'm not a huge fan of its design however, though I like how it loses its astroid covering in order to become a star. If Zen Mode Darmanitan is anything to go by, I doubt it will have competitive use.
Gumshoos: While Yungoos beared only a minor resemblance to Trump, this Pokemon looks like it was flat out inspired by him, from that Haircut, to its battle animations, to its general posture. Personally, I really like that its much more patient than its pre-evolution. It reminds me of how adults are generally more patient than when they were children. Since its an early game rodent, I doubt that I will be using him at all.
Fomantis and Lurantis: As a huge fan of the first Mantis Pokemon, Scyther, I'm really glad that we are getting another one. Lurantis's design looks much more natural than Scyther due to its covered eyes. Its unique arm posture also makes it look very similar to mienshao. It looks much more feminine than Scyther, most likely due to its Pink coloration. Judging by its overview trailer and design, it seems as if this mon will be a physical attacker. Really hoping that its signature move, solar blade is a one turn charge move as opposed to a 2-turn charge move like solar beam. Really looking forward to using this mon in game.
Mudbray: Not much to say about this apart from the fact that its snout and color scheme looks similar to hippopotas.
Anyway, my initial reactions before I read the massive amounts of replies:
Alola forms:
Wow, Delta Species have finally invaded the real game. Cool.
One thing I've been thinking is that maybe the starters and Rockruff could have Alola forms and that's their secret, but I don't know. Part of me doubts it, but I felt like throwing that out there.
Side note: this still doesn't prove that Megas are going at way. Worst case scenario is that we get no new Megas, only Alola forms, but we keep the already existing ones. Also, getting rid of Megas for Alola forms would be bad since you could combine them by giving Alola forms to Pokémon who can Mega Evolve and giving them a different Mega. Could be cool.
Exeggutor-A:
They made Exeggutor even weirder. And Grass/Dragon? Really? And Frisk?
Also, it's only a matter of time before someone Photoshops Exeggutor-A's neck to even more ridiculous heights.
Vulpix-A and Ninetales-A:
Well, this was more drastic than I thought it was going to be after Exeggutor. This complete reversal of type is very cool (pun intended), though Ice/Fairy is going to hurt, though it would be an amazing offensive type if they increase Speed and Special Attack (and we know that Alola form stats can be different). Pity it has Snow Cloak as an ability instead of something more useful.
Also, Vulpix-A is even cuter, I've always loved Shiny Ninetales, and I absolutely adore the concept of snow foxes, so I love their designs.
Sandshrew-A and Sandslash-A:
Hmm...while both of them are cute, Ice/Steel and dropped Speed implies that it will be yet ANOTHER bulky Ice-type.
New Pokémon:
Again, this seems to be the best Generation for Pokémon designs.
Oricorio:
I really like all four forms of it and how each is a different type, with their signature move changing depending on the form. Also, if it has good enough stats, Dancer will be a terrific ability, making able to switch in on set-up 'mons.
Also, SENSU
Minior:
An interesting design and a cool gimmick. Could be a potentially good set up mon.
Formantis and Lurantis:
They're okay. Also, physical Solar Beam is now a thing.
Mudbray:
I was actually thinking about a donkey 'mon since I'm trying to work on a fun Farm team, though it being the evolution to Mudsdale is not something I expected. It's very cute.
Gumshoos:
It's a detective? What? I do like its pose.
Hmph, still no Gen VII Water-types I like.
Z-Moves:
So it's like what many of us thought: a once-per-battle super move for each type. And it looks like it takes up the item slot, making it a successor to Gems and an evolution on the elemental Hyper Beams.
Also, I love the name BLOOM DOOM!
Island Challenge:
Well, this is a big surprise, but it does seem to disprove the Chinese leak. Yeah, there aren't Gym Leaders, but we aren't forming a league, just doing something different. I'm excited to see how it is will work. Also, the idea that wild Pokémon can call on others is an interesting concept. I also like the designs for the Trial Captains.
Poké-Rides:
It seems like the Eon Flute was a test run for a way to replace (or supplement) HMs. And I can't say that I mind.
Okay, I think I've given all of my initial reactions, let's move on.
Heh.
Your sanity.
Hmm...is there a good, Chthulu Mythos based nickname for Exeggutor-A?
There, I fixed it.
So... final starter evolutions confirmed?
No, the rocks will still be there. It's just that you don't need the HM on a team member.
They never once said that Z-Moves are exclusive to Alola Pokémon. You assume too much.
And all Pokémon in Sun and Moon (caught, bred, or transferred from Generation VI) are in the Alola region.
I could see that happening.
O.o
The real cute part of this picture is the little girl in the bottom right corner, holding a Rowlet, sitting next to a Togedemaru eating some berry, with a Cutiefly on her hat. She seems very happy.Dammit, I knew I was forgetting something.
In other news: Alolan Exeggutor's fourth head is... kind of cute?
Holy Sith! Thank Arceus that Shell Smash isn't also a Dance move!
No, freeze it with Ice! It's x4 Super Effective!
When they say that the only way to get some of the old forms is through Pokémon Bank, it's like saying that the only way to get version exclusives is to trade: you can still breed new ones.
Maybe BST, but Sandshrew-A and Sandslash-A have been confirmed to be slower.
Wait, Shedinja'd.
Harry S. Plinkett said:
That would be awesome!
How can you hate Rowlet, you insane psychopath?
As someone who hates Rowlet with a passion, this gif pleases me.
It's Gulpin!
Oh dear
...This is a Dracaena Draco Yuccas or dragon palm.
DRAGON palm.
Alolan Exeggutor is the best thing in generations.
Game Freak is too good at this.
They said the opposite (some old forms are only accessible through Bank).
This nearly killed me I was laughing so hard.
Luckily, the leaks that the designs came from did say Fire/Dark, so let's cling to that, shall we?
I have a feeling this is what will happen.
Clearly you weren't around for Gems in Generation V.
I think it would more likely but a big, flashing button similar to Mega Evolution and just does the move and then goes away. The "must be able to know a move of the same type" is just a balancing tool.
This.
Just you fuckers WAIT until this absolute menace gets to use an attacking move!!!
No one will be safe.
NO ONE.
I'm waiting for the Tumblr posts that use exeggutor's head followed by like seven images of its neck before they show its legs.
Confirmed: Ice Breaker (or whatever ice move is called) Donphan. Look out Dragon Types Donphan is comin' for ya!
Barely even know where to begin with these revelations.
I'll start with Alolan Sandshrew. It's adorable how it's head looks like an igloo. Love the Sandslash design too. Sandslash was the first mon I ever got to L100. I can dig this.
I'm also looking forward to seeing if these means new breed moves for the non-Alolan formes or cross-breeding. Like, I still envision A-Slash being able to use Dig and EQ, but maybe it can learn Icicle Crash from breeding now, while A-Sandslash can learn Sand Tomb from breeding.
I like Vulpix and Ninetales too. It's a complete change from Fire over to Ice, which is pretty cool and gives us an indication of how broad this new Pokemon Forme thing can go.
Tall Exeggutor is tall.
Z-Moves seem to me like they'll be about the power of pre-nerf Explosion without the mon fainting. They're clearly intended to all be damaging moves, and it looks like they have room for crazy versatility. This helps those Pokemon that have really explansive movepools but are otherwise mediocre. Like say... Donphan. Or all the Normal mons that get elemental everything.
Oh btw. Fairies are dead (except Klefki/Mawile) because everything carrying Toxic can nuke them now - unless it has to be a damaging move in which case they're mostly safe. I hope it does include support moves or moves of the Pokemon's type, just so you can run Thunder Wave and still be able to break out the Z-Move for STAB when the need arises. Z-Moves seem tailor-made to lure in threats and catch them by surprise. Bloom Doom Fire types seem like they'll be the order of the day. Oh btw if these run off the highest attack, Kyu-B will get a single physical Ice attack per game. Still a lot we don't know about these, but lots of potential.
The hype is very real.
Barely even know where to begin with these revelations.
I'll start with Alolan Sandshrew. It's adorable how it's head looks like an igloo. Love the Sandslash design too. Sandslash was the first mon I ever got to L100. I can dig this.
I'm also looking forward to seeing if these means new breed moves for the non-Alolan formes or cross-breeding. Like, I still envision A-Slash being able to use Dig and EQ, but maybe it can learn Icicle Crash from breeding now, while A-Sandslash can learn Sand Tomb from breeding.
I like Vulpix and Ninetales too. It's a complete change from Fire over to Ice, which is pretty cool and gives us an indication of how broad this new Pokemon Forme thing can go.
Tall Exeggutor is tall.
Z-Moves seem to me like they'll be about the power of pre-nerf Explosion without the mon fainting. They're clearly intended to all be damaging moves, and it looks like they have room for crazy versatility. This helps those Pokemon that have really explansive movepools but are otherwise mediocre. Like say... Donphan. Or all the Normal mons that get elemental everything.
Oh btw. Fairies are dead (except Klefki/Mawile) because everything carrying Toxic can nuke them now - unless it has to be a damaging move in which case they're mostly safe. I hope it does include support moves or moves of the Pokemon's type, just so you can run Thunder Wave and still be able to break out the Z-Move for STAB when the need arises. Z-Moves seem tailor-made to lure in threats and catch them by surprise. Bloom Doom Fire types seem like they'll be the order of the day. Oh btw if these run off the highest attack, Kyu-B will get a single physical Ice attack per game. Still a lot we don't know about these, but lots of potential.
The hype is very real.
I really love Ninetales-A. It looks absolutely majestic, for one. Two, Ice/Fairy: Because Fuck Dragons, amirite? Exeggutor, though...I don't dislike it, but I find it more hilarious than really good.
Also, the Alola Vulpix and Sandshrew lines are weak to their normal formes. On the other hand, crossing fingers for shared egg moves or TMs, because then Vulpix gets a Fire move to roast any cheeky Steels coming in. (But why do they both have Snow Cloak? No Snow Warning or Ice Body?)
We have supermoves (single-use only; must hold a special item and have a move of the same type). Do they break Protect? If not, let the mindgames begin.
The island captains are sort of Gyms. I feel like this change is more of a gradual transition away from Gyms, rather than losing them altogether.
Also, the Alola Vulpix and Sandshrew lines are weak to their normal formes. On the other hand, crossing fingers for shared egg moves or TMs, because then Vulpix gets a Fire move to roast any cheeky Steels coming in. (But why do they both have Snow Cloak? No Snow Warning or Ice Body?)
We have supermoves (single-use only; must hold a special item and have a move of the same type). Do they break Protect? If not, let the mindgames begin.
The island captains are sort of Gyms. I feel like this change is more of a gradual transition away from Gyms, rather than losing them altogether.
Firebot has you covered, fam: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/new-sun-and-moon-video.3578380/
I remember the same exact argument back in XY. I swear I remember it. "Idk this mega evolution thingy... hmm... 6v6 singles OU is a extremely competitive format, I don't see people sacking the item to gain some raw power. How strong the mega evolution is gonna be? Better than the same Pokémon with a CBand? I don't see it".
Then, mega evolutions happened.
Then, mega evolutions happened.
I don't know anybody who argued that. Stat boosts for Pokemon like Charizard and Mega Mawile is insane and everybody knew it would be better than an item because the stat boosts sound insane, we knew Mega Mawile got huge power.
This is just a buffed up gem move, will they be used? Yes. But it's a move you use once rather at the cost of an important item than a permanent stat and ability buff. This actually might not be used on every team.
Oh this news just keeps getting better-relooking at the trailer, Ride Pokemon may mark the final nail in the coffin for HM moves, as some mons seem to fill those roles already(Tauros=Strength, Mudsdale=Rock Climb, Charizard=Fly etc.)
Back then, we didn't know how powerful Kangaskhan, Gengar, Lucario, and Mawile would be when they were first leaked, even with their abilities announced, so we had no way to tell that they would absolutely break the metagame. Same thing with Salamence, and especially Rayquaza since nobody would of ever guessed that all it needed was Dragon Ascent to evolve.
Besides, I would personally rather Mega Evolve due to the long-term effects of doing so. I can't see Z-Moves having more than one PP, so as soon as your Opponent uses Protect or Substitute, your super nuke is gone and you're item is wasted. This makes it no better than moves such as Roar of Time and Explosion.
Mega Evos had +100 BST and amazing abilities. They gave us the two most powerful unboosted physical mons in the entire game (M. Medicham + M. Mawile, whose Atk stats are maxed at 656 and 678 respectively).
Z-Moves is like, boosted Gen V's gems, but in a controlled state. Not quite the same comparison, since it's something we've already dealt with.
I wonder where the ice forms are going to be located. I don't remember any snowy areas on the islands and you'd think it be pretty warm on Alola being based off of Hawaii, maybe it's a seasonal thing.
Z-moves can either be a super good adition to competitive play or a very stupid one. What is its priority? Does it always ohko? In the video pikachu ohkos a ground type pokemon, is that because he picked a gem that allows you to bypass ground immunity?
Edit: forget the last question, pikachu actually ohkoed ice sandshrew.
Edit: forget the last question, pikachu actually ohkoed ice sandshrew.
So the leak we got earlier seems correct, as they really called Oricorio's existence, they(kinda) called Gumshoos, called the new forms and they called the no gyms. I'm honestly believing that as truth. Something that got me very interested is that they say all these people from past gens and that the SS Anne is gonna be in the game. If you remember, in HGSS the SS Aqua took you from Johto to Kanto and back. I'm wondering if perhaps the SS Anne could take you to Kalos. I mean its very possible with all the information about Zygarde. I honestly would not be shocked if Sun and Moon pulls a Gold and Silver.
True, but they got all the new forms wrong.
I honestly do not think this is the end of new forms in Alola. Those leaks could very well come true. I'd wait out on calling the forms wrong for now.
Am I the only one absolutely in love with Exeggutor-A?
Like, I just adore how absolutely stupid and silly it is. It's the same reason Klefki is my favourite Pokémon; I don't look at it seriously, because it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It's stupid and I love that it's stupid. I love it when GF does things like this.
Like, I just adore how absolutely stupid and silly it is. It's the same reason Klefki is my favourite Pokémon; I don't look at it seriously, because it's clearly not meant to be taken seriously. It's stupid and I love that it's stupid. I love it when GF does things like this.
*Inhales*
I had fun guys!
*Ollies outta thread, wistfully dreaming of when I, too, can have an arbor of dragon trees attached to my belt buckle*
You had me at Exeggutor-A. You lost me at Klefki.
Pfff... Kurona comparing Exeggod to Klefki and shit... >.>
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