Generation 9 Free-For-All

[Imbion]

Inital thoughts post time, babey!


This guy is aggressively ok. As I suspected, being unable to utilize its best set (Bulk Up + Taunt) to its fullest potential in FFA results in a reasonable bulky attacker. Hard switching is more reasonable than using flip turn because of how many free switches there are in FFA, so it gets more stuff in its movepool to work with. Three Attacks + Bulk Up is my prefered set for it.


Regenerator spam is a surprisingly underrated team style (which I'd like to make a team building post akin to the RBO post later), and I honestly think Hydrapple is a good offensive option for those sorts of teams. It gets just the right options to bonk people with, while also having a lot of bulk to withstand hits. Also, as it turns out, being able to switch out and get health in a metagame where you switch a lot is good.


Lots of different builds for this mon. Its movepool and stats let it either be a bulky attacker, or a tank that can deal a good amount of damage (kinda like gen 8 Arcanine). Fire/Dragon is an underrated defensive combination.


Darvin already mentioned two of its sets, but I haven't been using either of them. Instead, I've been using it as a bulky spikes setter, with Knock Off to further chip away at teams. Very good support mon in this role. Pair it with a bulky team and a late game sweeper to cause pain.


Currently has absolute nuke status. Belongs only in the late game, where you can tera, click Dragon Dance once, and then click Fusion Bolt. Most teams do not survive a post Kyurem-B nuking, even if it goes down in the process due to team effort. The problem, however, is actually setting up a nuking. It's going to need the right team built for it - and that's still a WIP on my end.


I've started trying to use this mon as a hazard clearing option, since getting Pain Split allows me to use it as a method of coping. The result - It works and can keep hazards off, but it suffers like hell from the "Sits there" problem and can't really do much other than keep hazards off. That said, the other two moves I've been running (Protect and Iron Head) are definitely pretty damn passive, so I'll see if running some alternatives could help. In particular, I'm interested in seeing how Thunder Wave can contribute, given the right team.


Another Pain Split reciever. It gets some good utility moves, and a pretty useable stats spread. Unfortunuately, it's not very good because people on ladder like to throw on random ice moves for Gliscor, and hehe brain see 4x damage and click. It's really the typing that kills it. And for some ungod forsaken reason, Tentacruel doesn't get Pain Split, even though it got it in previous gens. Oh, goddamnit, we were this close to another arguly viable hazard cleaner, and thus my villian arc continues.

 

[Paeve]

Hello all. I'm new to any kind of competitive team building at all but in the past few days this format really awakened something in me. I made nearly 12 teams in the last few days with varying degrees of success. Here is my first, when I'm not aggressively targeted for using hazards it's been fairly effective, I think.

Sammy Rye (Samurott-Hisui) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Sacred Sword
- Ceaseless Edge
- Razor Shell
- X-Scissor

Battery (Galvantula) @ Magnet
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Sticky Web
- Electroweb
- Bug Buzz
- Thunder

A Salt (Garganacl) @ Leftovers
Ability: Purifying Salt
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Curse
- Salt Cure
- Protect
- Recover

Wizard Hat (Glimmora) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Corrosion
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Serious Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Spiky Shield
- Mortal Spin
- Energy Ball

Rocky Thorns (Tyranitar) @ Smooth Rock
Ability: Sand Stream
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Knock Off
- Stone Edge
- Dragon Dance

"Volt" Carona (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Energy Ball
- Whirlwind

Anybody have any thoughts?

 

[cheesesir]

Your team is cool, I love to see Iron Moth get some usage. I might run flip turn over x-scissor on Samurott, being able to pivot out of bad matchups can be great for scarfers. Also, I'm not sure if magnet is worth running over heavy-duty boots on Galvantula, your team's hazard control is limited to glimmora which can get chipped down pretty easily over a game, and Galvantula crumbles to rocks if they aren't constantly being kept off. For Glimmora, I'm not sure if leftovers would be a better item, the ground immunity is great but with the amount of random hits being tossed around in a FFA game it's going to be popped before too long, and any sort of longevity is crucial for Glimmora to keep hazards off for the entire game. There are maybe a few other tweaks that could be made, but that's all I can think of right now. Great team, hope to see you on ladder at some point

 

[Paeve]

Flip Turn is really tempting... though by the time I want Sammy out I'm usually already locked into Ceaseless Edge. This is a skill issue unrelated to teambuilding, but I'm really bad at regularly switching and I think this team incidentally plays to that, hence no Flip Turn on Sammy or Boots on Battery. Those are probably objective upgrades for more skilled players than I though.

 

[Darvin]

Anybody have any thoughts?

So I do see a number of problems with your team.

First and foremost, and probably the single biggest mistake I see on just about every FFA team, is that you really don't have much longevity. A lot of your team is on the frail side, and almost nothing here can recover lost hit points. This means that your team kinda just crumples if it's put on the back foot. If you're forced to pivot into something that Garganacl can't handle, you're taking damage that you have no way of healing and you can very quickly get worn down and eliminated. This is exacerbated by your limited hazard control. Glimmora is quite frail and can't come in and spin as often as you would like.

Speaking of Glimmora, it doesn't really work well with your team's focus on hazards. Corviknight completely walls Glimmora and is immune to Mortal Spin, so Glimmora switching is practically a free opportunity for an opposing Corviknight to come in and Defog away your hazards. It's very frail, can't heal, and is damaged by Spikes and Rocks when it comes in itself so it's going to struggle to stay healthy and keep your field clean of hazards.

I would recommend a Wish user to help keep your offensive Pokemon healthy throughout the match, being able to pass Wishes allows you to keep up the pressure and not allow chip damage to rack up. Alomomola and Jirachi are the best options here, but there are other good choices.

As for specific moveset choices, I would recommend Body Press and Iron Defense on Garganacl over Protect and Curse. Boosting your defense faster is huge for keeping Garganacl safe, and Body Press becomes very dangerous very quickly under these circumstances. Garganacl doesn't need Protect since it's already really bulky. I would recommend Choice Band over Choice Scarf for Samurott. Unlike in OU where speed investment is very high, in FFA you tend to see very high bulk investment so your biggest concern is dealing enough damage to break through. If you are going to use Galvantula, make sure to bring a Grass-type move so you aren't walled by Ground-types. Dragon Tail is an odd choice on a Dragon Dance user, as Dragon Tail always hits last so it gives up that Speed boost. Either focus on bulk instead of speed, or run a different attacking move to better make use of that speed. Smooth Rock isn't really necessary here, since you aren't using Sand for much.

I'm not a fan of Booster Energy in FFA, since if you need to use Iron Moth earlier in the game that will leave you without your item for later. Flexibility is important in FFA, and Booster Energy is just not flexible enough.

 

[Smug Bird]

Is there a chance Iron Bundle will ever be unbanned from this format? It's been difficult to find a good ice STAB mon that isn't in fear of burn or intimidate. Is it another instance like Palafin where it was just banned for being banned in singles or would it really be that good in this format even given it's relative frailty? (especially on the special side.)

 

[Paeve]

So I made some edits based on what you both said, thanks for the advice. They don't solve every problem that you brought up, but I think they will help with the one's I've encountered.

On Sammy, I went ahead and swapped X-Scissor for Flip Turn like Cheese said. Sammy often comes in at the start of the game to set spikes and dies early on, but I have run into times when 2 or more of my opponent's leads counter her, and the ability do some damage while switching might encourage me to go for that more often, rather than just saying "screw it" and clicking Ceaseless Edge. I've edited this team before and used Band for a while, but when I was targeted early spikes didn't go up, so I'm pretty firm on the Scarf choice.

Galvantula received the most changes by far. Having a grass move was a really good idea and the move to replace was obvious. I rarely found myself clicking electroweb at all, and since Galvantula is already pretty fast it was rarely having an impact when I did. I swapped it for Giga Drain. Once I made that change, swapping Battery for Heavy Duty Boots, which I was on the fence about before, was a no-brainer. With two electric moves I liked it, but with just Thunder is was nonsense. That lead to me swapping her Tera Type from Electric (to hit harder with the magnet+Thunder/Electroweb) to Grass to deal with Ground types and boost Giga Drain's power. Thanks especially for the help with this one, I had no idea how much it could be improved!

I had already been thinking of swapping Dragon Tail off of Ttar, ever since I learned about the reduced priority. It was really hard for to do though. I love being able to force hazard damage and dealing with mons that set up a load of stat boosts in front of everybody. But while it hurts to admit it, you're right, the reduced priority is a killer here. Whirlwind on Moth will have to do (I know it also has reduced priority but at least I'm not setting up speed on that mon). I gave Tar Brick Break instead, to deal with screens. I also swapped the smooth rock for a chople berry, but I might revert that change quickly. The idea behind smooth rock is to boost Glimmora and Garg's SpD, since they're usually some of my last mons remaining along with Ttar itself, but frankly I should work on keeping all of my mons alive in the first place. The idea with Chople is to scout a fighting move so that if I live it, I can Tera the next turn and get off a move completely free (aside from the sandstorm damage I'll now be taking and the effective SpD drop but shhhhhh).

As for the ones I didn't change:
~I agree Corv walls Glimmora, but for some reason I almost never see it. I the poison from Mortal Spin applies pressure, hopefully causing people to switch and take hazard damage, and it can often stick around to apply the poison to multiple of each opponent's mons with spiky shield+a ground immunity from the balloon. The balloon also makes it immune to spikes and webs, making it effectively half a pair of Heavy Duty Boots (1 balloon=1 boot?) which really helps its ability to remove hazards.
~Garg has really carried a lot of the games I've won, so much so that I've transferred this set to two other teams I've made (my sand team and a team built around Shed Tail Cyclizar). Curse is actually there primarily in case of a late game tera, someone unprepared can wind up taking salt and curse damage every turn, and ghost type curse even hits through protect clones and substitute. protect, therefore, is there mostly for recovery from leftovers and stalling salt and/or curse damage, either forcing a switch or killing outright in last mon scenarios.
~I might eventually give Moth a balloon. Like I said, I tend not to switch enough, so the item's lack of flexibility doesn't hurt me so much as the player's does. Still, a ground immunity is really freaking tempting...

Thanks so much for the tips and critique! I hope to post here regularly :)

 

[Nuclearstomp]

~I agree Corv walls Glimmora, but for some reason I almost never see it. I the poison from Mortal Spin applies pressure, hopefully causing people to switch and take hazard damage, and it can often stick around to apply the poison to multiple of each opponent's mons with spiky shield+a ground immunity from the balloon. The balloon also makes it immune to spikes and webs, making it effectively half a pair of Heavy Duty Boots (1 balloon=1 boot?) which really helps its ability to remove hazards.

That's just a case of ladder being ladder. In all honesty, every team should probably either have Mandibuzz or Corviknight because most other defoggers / rapid spinners are just worse at the job or unviable. Unless DLC2 changed that and I didn't notice.

 

[Paeve]

That's just a case of ladder being ladder. In all honesty, every team should probably either have Mandibuzz or Corviknight because most other defoggers / rapid spinners are just worse at the job or unviable. Unless DLC2 changed that and I didn't notice.

I keep thinking about this, because I think you're right but it raises a question. Is it better to build for what you know is best in the meta and then never encounter a well built team that it properly counters, or build a team that does well against what you do see, and occasionally get hard countered by a well made team? Especially in a format where, if one person is doing well, 3 other people have an incentive to target them anyway.
Then again, in my experience people tend to hard focus the one with the fewest mons remaining at the expense of their actual chance to win. Does that mean there's an incentive to build a team that functions well enough not to die too quickly, but also isn't "good" enough to arouse suspicion? Idk if there are hard answers to these questions.

 

[Nuclearstomp]

I keep thinking about this, because I think you're right but it raises a question. Is it better to build for what you know is best in the meta and then never encounter a well built team that it properly counters, or build a team that does well against what you do see, and occasionally get hard countered by a well made team? Especially in a format where, if one person is doing well, 3 other people have an incentive to target them anyway.
Then again, in my experience people tend to hard focus the one with the fewest mons remaining at the expense of their actual chance to win. Does that mean there's an incentive to build a team that functions well enough not to die too quickly, but also isn't "good" enough to arouse suspicion? Idk if there are hard answers to these questions.

I mean in all honesty this is very much a metagame where you can build whatever and still have fun. At the top level some mons will of course be unviable or not very good but since ladder has no elo or anything there is a lot of incentive to just play what you want, which I think is very cool.

 

[Darvin]

I know a lot of people are going to be upset by this, but it needs to be done

Pecharunt is banned in Generation 9 Free-For-All

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you in advance

Pecharunt's signature move Malignant Chain inflicts the badly poisoned condition which would be far too centralizing to allow in Free-For-All. We have already banned Toxic, Toxic Spikes, and Poison Fang because we feel that badly poisoned lacks sufficient counterplay and is otherwise too limiting on teambuilding. Toxic stall was extremely centralizing in Generation 8 Free-For-All, and the ban of Toxic moves at the start of Generation 9 resulted in very clear improvements that received a lot of positive feedback. This ban has been discussed multiple times on the Free-For-All Discord, and it enjoys broad support from our players. Given all that, there is no way Malignant Chain can be allowed to run free in our format.

Unfortunately, Malignant Chain is a signature move, and Smogon policy is that signature moves should not be banned and the Pokemon in question should be banned instead. The majority of the council would prefer the move ban, as it's very clear in this case that Malignant Chain is just a better version of a move that is already banned. However, after discussing the matter with site staff, we were advised that we should ban Pecharunt. While I understand that a lot of people will not like this outcome, this is the best option available to us given the circumstances.

 

[Paeve]

Hey again. My initial intent was to post a team every week, but I'm late right off the bat. Just so you know, I'm less confident in all my teams than I am in the first team I posted, the hazard team. This next one is the second one I made, a sun team. It's easily my second favorite, so I'm excited to see what improvements people smarter than me can bring.

Mice to Meet You (Maushold-Four) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn

A'Tuin (Torkoal) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Solar Beam
- Body Press
- Clear Smog
- Rapid Spin

ARMS (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Weather Ball
- Tera Blast

Sally Mense (Roaring Moon) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance

"Volt" Carona (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Morning Sun
- Solar Beam

Fruit (Tropius) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 12 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Giga Drain

 

[CraftyPuddle]

Hey again. My initial intent was to post a team every week, but I'm late right off the bat. Just so you know, I'm less confident in all my teams than I am in the first team I posted, the hazard team. This next one is the second one I made, a sun team. It's easily my second favorite, so I'm excited to see what improvements people smarter than me can bring.

Mice to Meet You (Maushold-Four) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn

A'Tuin (Torkoal) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Solar Beam
- Body Press
- Clear Smog
- Rapid Spin

ARMS (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Weather Ball
- Tera Blast

Sally Mense (Roaring Moon) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance

"Volt" Carona (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Morning Sun
- Solar Beam

Fruit (Tropius) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 12 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Giga Drain

I love this team. It has such a childlike whimsy to it. That said, after modifying it to patch up some obvious holes it became very clear that the issue with this team is a lack of longevity. Without a Blissey or Chansey (or Chimecho lol) there's no way to cure status, which is pretty damaging, especially to offensive Pokemon without leftovers who are now either constantly getting chipped or have their speed halved from paralysis - either way they lose a lot of their functionality. Not only that, but Iron Moth is the only Pokemon with a "reliable recovery" move (e.g. recover, soft-boiled) meaning it's easy any Pokemon to get whittled down by weak hits over the course of the game. Hazard removal needs to be especially bulky, and although Maushold is pretty good at hazard removal, it's frail and Torkoal isn't exactly a great backup option (although I like what you did putting removal on both Pokemon for redundancy).
However, the team does have some good principles as an offensive sun team. Specs Walking Wake is a great breaker/sweeper under sun. Flamethrower is probably more preferable than weather ball but I love the tera electric blast for Dondozo and other bulky waters. I don't have much experience with Roaring Moon in this format but it seems like a decent dragon dance sweeper in sun, although Gouging Fire can probably do more in sun with its fire type. Btw, spread moves are heavily nerfed in FFA so I would recommend stomping tantrum over earthquake for this set. Tropius is a fun subSeeder with harvest, it works sometimes. Maushold is a hazard remover which is also a sweeper but lacks bulk so it's exclusively a pick for offense, it works here. Iron Moth is interesting, I would probably prefer to run Volcarona though, which is bulkier and can further augment that bulk in addition to its offensive stats through quiver dance. Volcarona also has a better defensive ability in flame body and has giga drain for recovery and damage in one turn while still having fiery dance and morning sun like Iron Moth.
Torkoal is undeniably a sun setter, but it has no reliable recovery and its stealth rock weakness cannot be bypassed by heavy-duty boots since it commonly runs heat rock. FFA has typically leant more towards bulky manual sun setters like Cyclizar or Deoxys, the former of which can be found on a sun team in the samples.
Overall, I love the team, although it is undeniably flawed (sorry). Feels very singles/OU since it lacks the longevity typical of an FFA team. Makes me want to get back into building/playing sun.

 

[Darvin]

Mice to Meet You (Maushold-Four) @ Wide Lens
Ability: Technician
Tera Type: Normal
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Tidy Up
- Population Bomb
- Thunder Wave
- U-turn

I'd drop U-Turn for Knock Off so you're not completely walled by Ghost-types. The momentum of U-Turn is not as valuable in FFA as it is in other formats, and you'd much prefer the coverage.

A'Tuin (Torkoal) @ Heat Rock
Ability: Drought
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
IVs: 0 Spe
- Solar Beam
- Body Press
- Clear Smog
- Rapid Spin

I would consider using a manual setter instead. Scream Tail is very reliable at setting, and having to take a turn to do it isn't nearly as problematic in FFA as it is in other formats. Having a more useful Pokemon that can help keep your teammates healthy is far more reliable. If you are going to use Torkoal, consider Rest and Sleep Talk so it has some kind of recovery.

ARMS (Walking Wake) @ Choice Specs
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Electric
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Steam
- Draco Meteor
- Weather Ball
- Tera Blast

Go with Flamethrower over Weather Ball, the small power increase of Weather Ball over Flamethrower isn't worth losing access to your Fire coverage entirely in situations where you don't have Sun.

Sally Mense (Roaring Moon) @ Loaded Dice
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Scale Shot
- Knock Off
- Dragon Dance

Keep in mind that Kyurem-Black is legal in our format, so a lot of the OU Dragons are just outclassed here. Earthquake is a very weak move that's not worth your time, it's effectively only 50 BP due to the large damage reduction for spread moves in Free-For-All, so even Pokemon that are weak to it don't really fear it. I'd also recommend avoiding moves with defense drops if you can avoid it.

"Volt" Carona (Iron Moth) @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Fiery Dance
- Sludge Wave
- Morning Sun
- Solar Beam

You've already got a lot of really fast and offensive Pokemon on your team, I think you should go bulky with this one instead. Keep in mind that Sludge Wave (similar to Earthquake) is a very weak move so this will have a lot more trouble sweeping than you might anticipate.

Fruit (Tropius) @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Harvest
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 244 HP / 12 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Leech Seed
- Substitute
- Protect
- Giga Drain

The big problem you face with this set is that it's too passive. You're basically giving opponents a free opportunity to come in, use Wish and heal up their team. Leech Seed does almost nothing if they're just coming in and switching out, and Giga Drain with no SpA investment isn't going to do much unless they're weak to it. A set like this really only belongs on a stall team.

My comments about your previous team and longevity apply to this one as well, but I see a specific matchup weakness here, and that's Skeledirge. Walking Wake and Roaring Moon are the only things on your team that can handle it, and they really can't handle switching into repeatedly. Skeledirge kinda forces in your win conditions early, and weakens them to the point that your team's structural integrity is compromised.

 

[Darvin]

As you may be aware, the OU format has recently eliminated Sleep Clause Mod and banned Sleep inducing moves (see their announcement here: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...leep-clause-is-now-lifted-from-sv-ou.3734948/)

The Free-For-All council has voted on the matter ourselves, and we will be following OU's lead and doing the same here. In addition, we revisited the matter of the Pecharunt ban. We had previously missed that Smeargle can in fact use Malignant Chain, so it is not truly signature to Pecharunt. As a result, we would need to ban both Pecharunt and Smeargle to be rid of it, which makes a move ban an acceptable option for us. As a result, we will be going ahead and doing that as well. With all that said, these are the changes that are happening:

The Following Moves are banned in Generation 9 Free-For-All

* Dark Void
* Hypnosis
* Lovely Kiss
* Sing
* Sleep Powder
* Spore
* Yawn
* Malignant Chain

Pecharunt is unbanned

Sleep Clause Mod will be removed in Generation 9 Free-For-All

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you.

Reasoning:

The Sleep Clause Mod is an archaic relic that has no basis in modern Pokemon games. It has continued to exist by sheer self-perpetuating momentum, carried forward from generation to generation simply because it is the way the Smogon community has always done things in singles formats. The Smogon Free-For-All format was created in Generation 8, and does not even have the same historical justification that Smogon Singles does. The only reason we have Sleep Clause at all is because it was carried over from OU as a default clause. If OU doesn't have Sleep Clause Mod anymore, it has no legitimacy in Free-For-All.

Now, to play devil's advocate for a moment, there is an argument that unrestricted Sleep might be fine in Free-For-All. Our experience with Sleep Clause in effect is that Sleep is little more than a gimmick that's not worth running. Other status moves are everywhere in this format, abilities that help alleviate status are very common, and Sleep Talk has a lot of viable users. However, that doesn't mean Sleep will be fine if we let it off the leash. In fact, part of what keeps Sleep under control is that it isn't very good so it's not widely seen. If we had multiple players spamming Sleep constantly the game could easily grind to a crawl. This seems extremely undesirable, and we don't see Sleep offering anything positive to the Free-For-All format.

The vote was uncontroversial, and we are unanimous on banning Sleep from Generation 9 Free-For-All.

 

[cheesesir]

I don't really see sleep mattering at all, only times I ever really saw it was on troll teams. I am excited to see Pecharunt in action, ghost poison is a weird type for a defensive mon, but it has pretty impressive physical bulk and reliable recovery, while not being completely passive. I'm not sure what the best moveset would be, maybe recover, parting shot, sludge bomb, shadow ball? Might be worth running poison gas for the confusion, could be really disruptive but I don't see it being amazing.

 

[Darvin]

It has a lot of great moves. Sludge Bomb, Shadow Ball, Hex, Nasty Plot, Parting Shot, Recover, and Poison Gas all look very good. For more niche options there's Venoshock, Spite, Mean Look, Imprison, Acid Spray and Curse. I'm sure you could create lots of interesting sets with this thing.

 

[ihbst]

why isnt gliscor on the viability rankings? It is pretty potent with poison heal and its uniquely great typing

 

[Darvin]

why isnt gliscor on the viability rankings? It is pretty potent with poison heal and its uniquely great typing

It is on the viability ranking, it's in B. If I recall correctly, it was pretty close to A- but ultimately B prevailed

 

[Darvin]

The Free-For-All Council has completed its fourth voting slate, and these are the results:

* Chien-Pao is banned
* Dondozo is banned
* Urshifu-Rapid Strike is banned
* Ogerpon-Hearthflame is banned

Tagging Kris and Marty to implement, thank you

You can find the voting slate here

We also voted on Darkrai, Iron Bundle, and Kyurem-Black, but the majority voted to maintain the status quo with those three. The banned Pokemon will be removed from our viability rankings, and we will be removing sample teams that used them. We will add new sample teams at a later date. With that out of the way, let's talk about some of the reasons for these bans.

Dondozo

We need to get the big fish out of the way first. Dondozo is an extremely centralizing force in Free-For-All. It is staggeringly bulky, and it's far from passive either. With other threats on the field to provide distraction, Dondozo can set up Curse and snowball out of control shockingly quickly. Especially if you've already lost some of your checks, it can often take multiple players cooperating to bring down a single Dondozo.

Dondozo's Unaware ability means that you cannot rely on your own setup moves to deal with it. Moves like Haze and Metal Sound can work, but there aren't very many good users in the format. Clear Smog can be a good option, but it's blocked by Tera Steel so you cannot rely upon it. Just hitting Dondozo with super-effective special attacks is usually the best course of action, but between Tera Steel, Fairy, Dragon, Poison, and Grass it's completely unpredictable which Pokemon will actually have an advantageous matchup.

Dondozo's matchup against the other Unaware users is also notable. It has a natural type advantage against Clodsire and Skeledirge, making them shakey choices reliant on Terastallization to check Dondozo, and Clefable is reliant on setting up to maximum Stored Power to break Dondozo and is still thwarted by Tera Steel. But the most dysfunctional matchup is against opposing Dondozo, which is a stalemate.

Multiple Dondozo on the field creates an oppressive situation where nobody can make progress, but nobody wants to switch out for fear of taking a +6 Body Press or Liquidation. And anyone without a Dondozo is placed at a tremendous disadvantage. Even a well-prepared team can be left without a good option if it faces multiple Dondozos simultaneously. And oftentimes your best play against Dondozo is indeed to use your own.

Now, this was a contentious ban, with a 3-2 margin. The no-ban side points out that Dondozo serves as a useful check against very threatening physical attackers. While some of those attackers are being banned alongside it, others like Kingambit could become harder to deal with when their main counter is removed. In addition, its reliance on Rest is exploitable and it can often be shut down by Taunt or simply forced out with offensive pressure. Coming back in after being injured, it often requires Wish support. These are fair points; Dondozo is not perfect and does bring some healthy elements to the metagame.

In the end, however, the majority of the council felt Dondozo's centralizing aspects were causing more harm than good and its ability to check overwhelming physical threats was a case of broken checking broken.

Ogerpon-Hearthflame

Ogerpon-H is far from perfect and requires good positioning and play to be effective, and even then it can be thwarted quite easily if the opposing players cooperate and take advantage of its middling bulk. However, when it does get an opening the counter play against it essentially revolves around hoping to not be attacked. After a Swords Dance, its Ivy Cudgel hits with incredible power and the Mold Breaker ability means it doesn't have to worry about Unaware. Its secondary STAB threatens Dondozo, and if it does not need Mold Breaker it can Terrastalize for a huge offensive boost. But with the high crit rate of Ivy Cudgel, even the strongest physical walls that resist it can be potentially 2HKO'd. And to top things off, Ogerpon-H can also make use of Sun to become even more dangerous.

Ogerpon-H has its limitations, but crosses a line that in many realistic situations the only counter play against it is to pray and hope that the player targets someone other than you.

Urshifu Rapid Strike

Urshifu is banned for a very simple reason: it just hits too hard. Choice Band, Tera Water, and Rain in conjunction give Urshifu's Surging Strikes a level of power comparable to Dracovish's Fishious Rend. Without an immunity it becomes incredibly difficult to handle, and there just aren't very many good Water immunities in the format and most of them don't take a Close Combat very well at all. Unseen Fist means you cannot even use Protect to scout or to waste PP, and there's no guarantee that Urshifu is even running a Choice Band set. While Choice Band is Urshifu's best set, it can run other sets which you would respond to differently.

Urshifu is a Pokemon that might have been fine in Free-For-All if even a few pieces were missing, but the amount of offensive power it can stack into a single attack is too much and the format cannot handle it effectively. At a certain point, your only realistic counter play is to pray and hope it doesn't hit you.

Chien Pao

It's saying something that Chien-Pao is the least problematic Pokemon being banned today. However, its powerful offensive STAB combination combined with good coverage, boosting moves, and a terrifying ability makes it too hard to handle. Even with Dondozo in the format, the number of good Chien-Pao checks is limited, and with Dondozo gone that list gets even smaller. The only factors keeping Chien-Pao in check are its mediocre bulk and terrible defensive typing, but with terastallization it can take a hit or two and survive. We have other wallbreakers that can fulfill the same role as Chien-Pao in a more healthy fashion, and its removal from the tier should be quite positive.

With the bans covered, let's go over a quick rapid-fire on the three Pokemon who did not see any change in status:

Darkrai

We elected not to unban Darkrai. Even with Sleep moves banned, it is a little too much for a format where 125 Speed is only outsped by a handful of threats, and where its coverage can easily break through just about everything. We feel that it wouldn't be a healthy addition to the format.

Iron Bundle

Another Pokemon we did not unban. Blissey and Chansey are really the only Pokemon in the format that can handle Iron Bundle. There's nothing that can take the combination of STAB Freeze Dry + Hydro Pump, and with Choice Specs it blows through anything in its path that doesn't have immense special bulk. Overall Blissey and Chansey are too centralizing as it stands, and introducing a brutal special attacker that only they can handle will only make that worse.

Kyurem-Black

Kyurem-Black is incredibly strong, but doesn't quite cross the threshold that Ogerpon, Urshifu, and Chien-Pao did. So far, at least. Though it is one of the most dangerous presences in the format and it may very well receive a follow-up vote in the future. While it gained a lot in Generation 9, the loss of Roost was devastating and it is no longer able to use its incredible bulk to muscle through and simply ignore chip damage. It also faces a similar problem with its item, as it really wants Loaded Dice but losing out on Leftovers just leaves it even more vulnerable to being chipped into KO range. The addition of Tera Electric and Loaded Dice has made its offensive presence more dangerous, but not without tradeoff in other respects.

However, the biggest gains Kyurem-Black made this generation are actually metagame shifts. In Generation 8 FFA there was exactly one Unaware user, meaning that setup sweepers simply needed to make sure they could handle Clefable. In Generation 9 there are four (well, three now) viable Unaware users with radically different typing and threat profiles, which makes setup sweepers much less useful. Kyurem-Black, however, doesn't have to worry about Unaware which makes it a uniquely threatening setup sweeper. So far it hasn't proven to be too much, but we will definitely be keeping our eyes on it.

 

[cheesesir]

Rip donbozo lmaooooo

Just to make this not a throwaway, the Dondozo ban means that Alomomola is probably going to see a lot more usage as the new physical water wall. Regen + Wish gives it a lot more easy longevity than Dondozo, but not having unaware and being a lot more passive means that it can't fill the same niche. I feel like Skeledirge is also going to become more popular with people looking for an unaware user, but again, it can't quite fill the same niche. It's going to be interesting seeing if setup sweepers become more prevelant now, Stored Power Clefable could definitely be a lot more dangerous. I'm excited to see how the meta's going to shake out.

 

[Sincronos]

Screens terrain team prolly bad

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Rest
- Crunch

Rillaboom @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance
- Wood Hammer

Cresselia @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Levitate
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Poison
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Calm Mind
- Stored Power
- Moonlight
- Moonblast

Grimmsnarl @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Taunt

Roaring Moon @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Protosynthesis
Tera Type: Steel
EVs: 252 HP / 224 Atk / 32 Spe
Careful Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Iron Head
- Knock Off
- Roost

Pecharunt @ Grassy Seed
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
- Recover
- Poison Gas
- Hex
- Curse

 

[Darvin]

Screens terrain team prolly bad

Yeah, screens and terrains have never been particularly good in Free-For-All. While they can be helpful in some situations, losing a whole team slot for good setters just hurts too much. Because setup sweepers are so strong, and offensive momentum so unreliable, any team worth its salt has multiple good countermeasures that aren't reliant on just hitting you hard. This means that screens only starts to shine later in the match when the other teams have taken KO's and have reduced options, but since you devoted multiple team slots to screens you don't have the defensive backbone to last that late.

None of your teammates are bad individually (though Rillaboom is very suspect, since it gives a lot of free healing to opponents with grassy terrain) but taken together this is a team that has to win quickly and be aggressive all the time. And if you're constantly being aggressive you're likely to become a target.

 

[Sincronos]

Revival spam prolly bad pretty fun tho

Rabsca @ Covert Cloak
Ability: Synchronize
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Revival Blessing
- Sleep Talk
- Rest

Pawmot @ Leppa Berry
Ability: Volt Absorb
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Revival Blessing
- Supercell Slam
- Close Combat
- Encore

Iron Valiant @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Ground
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Destiny Bond
- Close Combat
- Moonblast
- Protect

Gengar @ Life Orb
Ability: Cursed Body
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Destiny Bond
- Shadow Ball
- Sludge Bomb
- Protect

Meowscarada @ Life Orb
Ability: Protean
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Triple Axel
- Protect/play rough
- Flower Trick
- Knock Off

Zamazenta-Crowned @ Rusted Shield
Ability: Dauntless Shield
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Rest
- Substitute
- Body Press
- Iron Defense

 

[ihbst]

why was baton pass banned? I don't believe it would be overbearing in a free for all battle, as teams already have anti-setup and people can work together if it starts to get out of control

Edit: want to add that baton pass has had a good influence on the metagame in gen3 as an example. Freeing baton pass in FFA can give pokemon like clefable and gliscor a way to pivot+counteract trapping if you can fit it into your movepool