Texas Cloverleaf
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I support this clause for PS!
Jas, it has nothing to do with 100 v. 48, we're simulating just telling your opponent the result of dividing your pokemon's current HP by its total.The real point is not even about knowing HP EVs. Its about the fact that the only argument in favor of this is that people are used to it. The whole "more info" thing is bullshit. If you want more info why are we not disclosing everything about your team? And even if it is just about HP fraction, why out of 100? Sure, 100 is more accurate than 48. But 143 is more accurate than 100. Why not fractions of 143? The fact is, it is arbitrary and really makes no sense. When one of the main things backing it is "its possible in game" and we have a bunch of wi-fi people saying in thread that it really isn't, I fail to see why we would go with this.
No numbers will be visible on the HP bar, but both pixels/48 and % ranges will be shown on mouseover.In any case, how will HP bars be displayed without this enabled? No numbers visible at all? Or /48? Or % ranges?
It's infinite decimal just rounded for ease.Well, that is not what is being suggested here. The proposed clause does indeed suggest we make it a fraction out of 100, specificially the ceilinged value of HPcurrent/HPmax*100.
All clauses are based on "yeah, I like it"-- or "Yeah, I think this makes the game more competitive." The value added of all clauses AND bans/tiering comes from a subjective decision, from a value-based decision-- not objective fact.Regardless, even if we were to do an infinite decimal, it still begs the question of why? No one is really answering that. Its just a "yeah, I like it" thing without any logical arguments supporting it.
Oh, you're absolutely right-- this is no compromise.I should point out to everyone in favor of this "compromise" that it's not really a compromise; it's effectively a full concession.
thank you :)So if this result was what you wanted, the least you could say is "thank you".
I see this as a pretty serious problem actually. If you can use the div 48 and div 100 together to get an exact number regardless, why should people only get that exact number by going through all these hoops? I say if we're not going to hide information the game hides, we shouldn't be so half assed about it, and just show exact hp values. This isn't the outcome I wanted, but exact hp is the logical conclusion of it.So we are getting HP in increments of 48 and 100? I guess I'll have to update Technical Machine to do the math on both and get an exact HP amount (both in terms of total and current) where possible. Or is the server sending a number between 1 (or 0?) and 100, and the client is just converting that to increments of 48 for that mouseover?
Server will send in increments of 48 when this clause is off, and in increments of 100 when this clause is on.So we are getting HP in increments of 48 and 100? I guess I'll have to update Technical Machine to do the math on both and get an exact HP amount (both in terms of total and current) where possible. Or is the server sending a number between 1 (or 0?) and 100, and the client is just converting that to increments of 48 for that mouseover?
Interesting, because a lot of people in this thread, including you, seem to like referring to "objective fact" in your arguments. Actually, no, not "objective fact"... "falsifiable claims" is the correct term. So let's look at some of these "falsifiable claims", then.All clauses are based on "yeah, I like it"-- or "Yeah, I think this makes the game more competitive." The value added of all clauses AND bans/tiering comes from a subjective decision, from a value-based decision-- not objective fact.
^You can't do that because then they can guess at your HP EVs which would let them guess your set. Hip, are you forgetting about the importance of EV tweaking in later gens? :P
Arbitrary decimal points (used in damage calculators) are functionally the same as exact HP. The only difference is that most people won't bother to figure it out because ugh, gotta take out my calculator... It's a plain contradiction and it's indicative of the inconsistency of a lot of the arguments. For example:It's infinite decimal just rounded for ease.
So did Team Preview not change the metagame? Both are basically fog-of-war effects.I'd say make it optional for WiFi and as a response to Jas#####'s it isn't changing the metagame at all... the only difference is there is a slight difference in information reported.
Simulators have also had the wrong Spikes damage, among other things.I'm still surprised that this was ever a thing. How long has it been that we've had percent HP? A decade, at least?
I find it way more convenient to use whole numbers to describe %-of-total effects like Leftovers recovery and Regenerator recovery... then again Lucario switching into Stealth Rock would come out to 1.5/48 so...I think it is widely accepted that % is what we used so long and what we want to keep on using because it is a mathematically convenient way.
I don't think there is much that needs to be discussed here. Not reporting 48th should not even be an option. As controversial as this clause as a whole may be, sending percents accurate to the 100th is technically possible using an independant arbiter. Refusing to send the increments out of 48, on the other hand, is fundamentally changing the mechanics of the game. It is tantamount to telling a DS player they cannot look at their own screen. The moment we refuse to send the HP value as it could actually be determined, we are essentially removing information from the player's user interface which is clearly unacceptable.You're right, though, in that the result of this clause should be that both increments of 48 and 100 should be known to the player. And that combined could be enough information to figure out exact HP/maxHP, so we might as well send that.
I'd be interested to know other people's opinions on that.
Only really care about this part so:Simulators have also had the wrong Spikes damage, among other things.
New (but really old) rule: you will assume good faith of others. Nobody is arguing to simulate PO and you know it. For example, here is my own take on this issue, extracted from another topic:Firestorm said:Zarel, I'm sorry you were put in this position by people who would rather simulate Pokemon Online than simulate Pokemon Black and White 2.
It's fair to say I think the HP display in pixels is an implementation detail.- "we are implementing the correct mechanics". This statement is not a fact, and even if it was a fact, it is not an excuse to ignore the outcry from the community. Simulating the complete behavior of a specific cart is one possible goal for a simulator; another option is to try to smooth over implementation details and bugs (using evidence from other canonical implementations of Pokemon, like PBR and Stadium). This leads to my second point...
- "open for interpretation, and therefore no" The latter goal for a simulator has been called "ethereal", and apparently it is not a valid goal for a simulator because the implementation is open to interpretation. We are a community, we sometimes have opinions, and this is not a bad thing. I think our community is quite reasonable, and we do it a disservice by equating the argument for no pixels with such arguments as "maybe we should just implement Gen NEXT" "I guess we can't change the spikes damage" "maybe I want Volcarona to take 25% from SR" "maybe we should just simulate PO".
There is no point in even acknowledging such statements. We need to make the fundamental assumption that our community is reasonable, and can handle debate. I don't think our community would ever, EVER question fixing Spikes damage, but yet they question pixels. Instead of "ur wrong", maybe we should look to WHY our players have a problem with pixels? Maybe there is a good reason, and maybe it is worth considering arguments other than "correct mechanics of cart version 1.5.4.2-rev103"