Ice, Ice, Baby - Hail Discussion

[Dark Pulse]

woow, nice OP, haven't read it fully, but am going to save it so I can read it at my leasure (when I haz no internetz)

Hail may not have gotten much, and as a result it is almost never used. In my opinion, that is what makes it so powerful. Nobody uses hail! It's a goldmine just waiting to be dug up!

I personally use hail, as it is uncontested by other hail teams (a major problem I found in my SS team) using 2 T-spikers, a fusion/custom HAXor Froslass set (attract/substitute + Confuse ray) to spinblock and set up spikes, and a mighty staalllrein that has turned a 6-1 game into a 0-1 game (yes, I use my whole team as setting up hail and hazards, while crippling an ever-switching offensive opponent, to finally send in a stallrein that will stall out the opponent)

as I have found, Gen 5 has improved hail, but not hail stall

Hail's blessing in disguise has come in the form of Shell Smash
Cloyster @ Life Orb/Leftovers

Shell Smash
Rock Blast/Blizzard/Explosion
Icicle Spear/Icicle Drop
Shell Blade/Blizzard/Explosion

what to do with this guy... Shell smash transforms Cloyster from a useless piece of **** into a powerful sweeper (in just one turn!) not only that, if the opponent is unprepared, you can even use it twice to make Cloyster undefetable (well, in theory at least)

I have suggested leftovers if the opponent decides to troll you by switching in to a Tyranitar when you shell smash. Life orb would ruin you then, but leftovers allows you to survive the residual SS damage.

If the opponent doesn't see the suisidal advantage of sending in their T-tar, Cloyster will almost have a 100% chance of killing with Icicle sear or Rock Blast. if the opponent survives (1 shell smash + Icicle spear on a T-tar leaves about 5% health [citation needed] it would be left with a 6% health loss from hail (Lefties goes after hail, so... anything with less than 6% health after Icicle spear dies)

now, the reason Cloyster is near indestructible is also combined with the stalling abilities of a normal hail team... if SR is added to this equation, heck, Spikes even! you can imagine the results

I think that Hail can be taken out of the mothballs, dusted off, and realised what a jewel it is. with the combination of Sweepers, Stallers, and all-round powerful pokemon, it can be made into a blinding team

(note: my hail team peaked me at 450th in the Smogon PO server) [not impressive, but for an average member...]

EDIT: wow, I didn't realise HOW big that OP is... you really put some thought into it *applaudes*

 

[Benlisted]

I really don't see what Cloyster adds to a Hail team tbh :\. He may be immune to the damage, but wouldn't he be just as good as on a regular team essentially if you use some other sources of residual damage (hazards)? All I can see is that he exacerbates your weaknesses when you could be using things that abuse Hail to the fullest, like StallRein/Ice and Blizzspam Kyurem.

 

[Dark Pulse]

I almost went on a rant, but it is true that cloyster is usable outside of hail, all I can say is it's now viable on a hail team, and just the fact that it is immune to the residual damage (IMO) should be enough to include such a pokemon that can sweep when outside of weather...

IMO, cloyster's ability to be used outside of hail is what makes it so good in hail. Like I said, if a bold opponent sends in a T-tar, you can still continue sweeping with ease...

 

[Gneiss is nice]

I just battled on PO for the first time today, and I did fairly well with a hail team.
My team is Abomasnow, Froslass, Reuniclus, Hariyama, Walrein, and Heatran.

I've won around half the games, though some were close cause I played badly (accidentally tried Thunder Wave on a Ground pokemon, Toxic on a Steel one, etc.).

It works pretty well for me so far.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

True, but does Cloyster use Blizzard?

 

[Gneiss is nice]

True, but does Cloyster use Blizzard?

No, but putting Cloyster on your hail team means that you get a powerful Ice attack that doesn't rely on Blizzard, so you can laugh in the face of the Sand Stream weather inducers, or not be too crippled if the weather changes in any other way. That and the fact that it's another member of your team that doesn't take Hail damage, and Cloyster's pretty good in the Hail, even if he doesn't make the most of it like other Ice types.

 

[XienZo]

Cloyster gets pretty much absolutely nothing out of Hail though. If anything, it's worse for Cloyster since it'll get stuck onto a team that shares many of the same weaknesses.

 

[Lady Shinki]

Cloyster can still be used as a magnificent DEFENSIVE tank, and he benefits from hail that way since it maintains leftovers and its decent bulk vs. non-fighting hits. It can sponge HP Fires and the like since it's only neutral to Fire, but nothing on a hail team will really sponge fire attacks than something like Blissey. (tentacruel does a similar job but has disappointingly weak physical defense, but he does resist fire/fighting AND can also put down tspikes and spin so this is a secondary option to tenta on hail if you want something more physically bulky)

Cloyster @ Leftovers/Shed Shell
252 HP/252 SpDef/4 Def
Bold / Overcoat

Surf
Toxic Spikes
Spikes/Ice Beam
Ice Beam/Rapid Spin

 

[Heathcliff Huxtable]

I don't think defensive a Cloyster could work very well in BW OU. It doesn't have many useful resistances and it is easily defeated by common attackers such as Roobushin and Rankurusu. Tentacruel seems like the better choice because its typing and its ability allow it to check a much larger variety of threats.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

I've been having decent success with my hail team so far, winning around half my games (I'm still sorta new, so I make dumb mistakes), but I'm missing a Rapid Spinner and entry hazards are really messing me up.

My team is Abomasnow, Froslass, Hariyama, Heatran, Reuniclus, and Walrein. They all work pretty well, but no one learns Rapid Spin, and I don't know which to replace for a Rapid Spinner (I'd probably add Cloyster on as a Rapid Spinner instead).

Thoughts?

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

nothing on a hail team will really sponge fire attacks than something like Blissey.

Chandelure.

Is Duosion good in Hail? I like it better than Reuniclus.

 

[TLK]

I've been having decent success with my hail team so far, winning around half my games (I'm still sorta new, so I make dumb mistakes), but I'm missing a Rapid Spinner and entry hazards are really messing me up.

My team is Abomasnow, Froslass, Hariyama, Heatran, Reuniclus, and Walrein. They all work pretty well, but no one learns Rapid Spin, and I don't know which to replace for a Rapid Spinner (I'd probably add Cloyster on as a Rapid Spinner instead).

Thoughts?

Dory and Starmie are the best two offensive rapid spinners around. Starmie can even utilize a full powered Blizzard, and STAB Hydro Pump and boltbeam coverage is fantastic.

Dory might be a bit of dead weight depending on the circumstance, but not many ghost types will want to come in on him.

Hitmontop can act as offensive or defensive. Also works well against Sandstorm teams.

If you want more defensive rapid spinners.

Claydol, Forretress, Tentacruel, Donphan are the best few. Forretress and Tentacruel can lay down Toxic Spikes to help Wallrein - Foretress, Caydol and Donphan can all lay down stealth rock too.

Personally, I'd go Tentacruel. Great Special Defense, absorbs Toxic Spikes itself, can rapid spin and lay it's own hazards.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

Dory and Starmie are the best two offensive rapid spinners around. Starmie can even utilize a full powered Blizzard, and STAB Hydro Pump and boltbeam coverage is fantastic.

Dory might be a bit of dead weight depending on the circumstance, but not many ghost types will want to come in on him.

Hitmontop can act as offensive or defensive. Also works well against Sandstorm teams.

If you want more defensive rapid spinners.

Claydol, Forretress, Tentacruel, Donphan are the best few. Forretress and Tentacruel can lay down Toxic Spikes to help Wallrein - Foretress, Caydol and Donphan can all lay down stealth rock too.

Personally, I'd go Tentacruel. Great Special Defense, absorbs Toxic Spikes itself, can rapid spin and lay it's own hazards.

I ended up swapping my Hariyama for a Cloyster, but Cloyster hasn't been great so far. He hits like a truck when I get a chance to use him, but I have trouble switching him into stuff, and having yet another guy on my team with all the weaknesses Ice has, in addition to grass and electric is kinda not working so well.

I might try out a Forretress if I need the defense, or Excadrill for offense, since I'm short on physical attackers.

Thanks for the help.

 

[Forsety]

Try Claydol, he couldn't give a rats ass about most of the weaknesses Hail teams normally have Rock/Fighting/Elec whilst he appreciates all the resists you already pack. I'd actually substitute Reuniclus for it and have something even faster and harder hitting in Hariyama's place to make up for the loss of offense.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

Try Claydol, he couldn't give a rats ass about most of the weaknesses Hail teams normally have Rock/Fighting/Elec whilst he appreciates all the resists you already pack. I'd actually substitute Reuniclus for it and have something even faster and harder hitting in Hariyama's place to make up for the loss of offense.

Hmm well, I sorta like my Reuniclus, Magic Guard is fantastic and really helpful for neutralizing Hail damage, and with Recover, he's tough to take down. Psycho Shock's also really strong, based off his massive SpA.

I might swap it and then add Mamoswine in for some strong Ground STAB and a powerful Ice Shard, though. I'll give it a try later (I got Wind Ensemble soon until 9:50 >.>)

 

[Cudder]

I love how Gliscor got a huge boost with poision heal in hail teams as hail damage was pretty annoying IMO and it made the leftover useless but now you can technically have a "Leftover" even during hail.
Saw a fling set but dunno if its effective, but having a 110 base attack stab is never that bad...and with all the fighting threats he will surely be staple...
Any other pokemon that has to be in every hail team except for the frost tree?

 

[UnhandledException]

Any other pokemon that has to be in every hail team except for the frost tree?

Kyurem, Walrein, Froslass.....

 

[Cshadow]

The three Pokemon you mentioned aren't a necessity - it all depends on the team you're running.

 

[UnhandledException]

Froslass is the only thing hail teams have that is immune to both fighting type moves and hail, and is the only ice type spiker iirc(lol Glalie), Kyurem is probably the only viable offensive pokemon apart from Glaceon who is just too slow, while also providing useful water and grass resists(nattorei). In addition it isn't fire-weak and can lure in and take out scizor if it uses reflect which is one of the worst pokemon to face when running hail, while walrein is walrein. Sure they do not necessarily be on the same team but every hail team has to have one of them...

 

[Gneiss is nice]

Froslass is the only thing hail teams have that is immune to both fighting type moves and hail, and is the only ice type spiker iirc(lol Glalie), Kyurem is probably the only viable offensive pokemon apart from Glaceon who is just too slow, while also providing useful water and grass resists(nattorei). In addition it isn't fire-weak and can lure in and take out scizor if it uses reflect which is one of the worst pokemon to face when running hail, while walrein is walrein. Sure they do not necessarily be on the same team but every hail team has to have one of them...

I actually hit quite hard with my Froslass and Abomasnow, getting OHKOs often with super effective hits, and doing decent damage without SE. I wouldn't call Kyurem necessary.

Walrein is probably the best Hail staller you can have, though. Between Hail and Toxic damage, I can outstall a lot of things, though I have trouble with Steels and Poisons.

I'd actually say that Heatran is amazingly useful, though probably not mandatory. Nullifying Fire is incredibly important, and the STAB Fire takes down a lot of threats, like Scizor. Unfortunately, the additional Ground and Fighting weakness is harder to work around.

 

[TorchicBlaziken]

But, Chandelure has an immunity to Fighting!

 

[Gneiss is nice]

By the way, how do you guys deal with Vaporeon on the opponent's team?

Every time I see one, I'm pretty much guaranteed a loss. The only super effective move I have against him is Giga Drain on my Abomasnow, and he tends to die after the opponent switches out to an Abomasnow counter, either from me taking the hit eventually or from entry hazards + status. After he's out of the way, Vaporeon can pretty much stall every guy on my team; I can stall on my Walrein too, but not nearly as long, especially once Toxic damage racks up. And it's particularly bad if it's a rain team, since after Abomasnow's down for the count, they set up rain again and Hydration means that I can't do anything at all.

It's annoying >.>

 

[red12345]

By the way, how do you guys deal with Vaporeon on the opponent's team?

Every time I see one, I'm pretty much guaranteed a loss. The only super effective move I have against him is Giga Drain on my Abomasnow, and he tends to die after the opponent switches out to an Abomasnow counter, either from me taking the hit eventually or from entry hazards + status. After he's out of the way, Vaporeon can pretty much stall every guy on my team; I can stall on my Walrein too, but not nearly as long, especially once Toxic damage racks up. And it's particularly bad if it's a rain team, since after Abomasnow's down for the count, they set up rain again and Hydration means that I can't do anything at all.

It's annoying >.>

Dude... stall it out with toxic. Toxic spikes are pretty much integral to any hail team. It's brother Glaceon can set up infinite subs and use toxic. Regice can use toxic.

 

[Gneiss is nice]

Dude... stall it out with toxic. Toxic spikes are pretty much integral to any hail team. It's brother Glaceon can set up infinite subs and use toxic. Regice can use toxic.

I've tried, but I either run into Vaporeon with Heal Bell, Rest, or Hydration (which is only a problem if Abomasnow dies before his Politoed does).

Walrein's an awesome staller, but if Vaporeon keeps cleansing Toxic, he can outstall me, especially if he uses his own Toxic on me.

 

[breh]

I've tried, but I either run into Vaporeon with Heal Bell, Rest, or Hydration (which is only a problem if Abomasnow dies before his Politoed does).

Walrein's an awesome staller, but if Vaporeon keeps cleansing Toxic, he can outstall me, especially if he uses his own Toxic on me.

Then don't let obama die... that's the whole point of any weather team - to wear down the opponent's starter.