In the Matrix franchise (spoilers)

Someone said that Zion had already been destroyed more than once.
Several characters mention that the "Chosen one" has appeared more than one time.
If these claims were true then how could that be the case within the framework of the characters reality?

As far as the audience knows, Zion exists outside of the "Matrix" in their version of the real world. So does that mean the world of the Matrix movies might take place inside some kind of larger Matrix?

For a separate question, the conclusion of the last film seemed open ended. Is it more likely that their world is headed for future disaster or something closer to a happy ending?
 

Kink

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The bad writing of the third film (and partially the second) is the reason you're confused. The creators of the Matrix trilogy had a slightly misconstrued understanding of cause and effect, as well as existence preceding essence. The end result is, as you point out, a lot of open ended suggestions that the real world and the matrix are meta-connected and it's a cyclical, dependent relationship between man and machine which "makes sense" (it doesn't, but they think it does) because "this is the way philosophy" unfolds when discussing cause and effect (hint: it doesn't, and that's why you're scratching your head).
 

GatoDelFuego

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Someone said that Zion had already been destroyed more than once.
Several characters mention that the "Chosen one" has appeared more than one time.
If these claims were true then how could that be the case within the framework of the characters reality?
The matrix in the films exists as a simulated reality to placate humans used for processing and energy generation by the machines. Humans only accept the existence of the simulated reality due to the perceived "choice" of existing in it or not. If the matrix was a 'perfect world', humans would not accept it as reality.

People who reject the simulated reality (zion) are monitored by the machines. When their population grows to be deemed a threat ("in the past six months we have freed more people than in six years" -morpheus), the machines exterminate zion and start over.

Neo exists (the chosen one) to reboot the simulated reality to prevent humans plugged into the matrix from revolting (or something similar). The machines give him a choice of doing this or refusing to, resulting in zion being slaughtered and all connected humans being killed as well. Presumably for dramatic effect. Neo's predecessors choose to maintain the status quo and reboot the matrix. Neo refuses and attempts to stop the war between the machines and humans.

The ending of the third film reveals this to have been planned by the Oracle. The Architect (colonel sanders) dislikes this because like most machines he prefers the status quo with no change. Nobody knows if the peace treaty between zion and the machines will last. But you can read some of the continuing story as part of The Matrix Online.
 

Kink

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The matrix in the films exists as a simulated reality to placate humans used for processing and energy generation by the machines. Humans only accept the existence of the simulated reality due to the perceived "choice" of existing in it or not. If the matrix was a 'perfect world', humans would not accept it as reality.

People who reject the simulated reality (zion) are monitored by the machines. When their population grows to be deemed a threat ("in the past six months we have freed more people than in six years" -morpheus), the machines exterminate zion and start over.

Neo exists (the chosen one) to reboot the simulated reality to prevent humans plugged into the matrix from revolting (or something similar). The machines give him a choice of doing this or refusing to, resulting in zion being slaughtered and all connected humans being killed as well. Presumably for dramatic effect. Neo's predecessors choose to maintain the status quo and reboot the matrix. Neo refuses and attempts to stop the war between the machines and humans.

The ending of the third film reveals this to have been planned by the Oracle. The Architect (colonel sanders) dislikes this because like most machines he prefers the status quo with no change. Nobody knows if the peace treaty between zion and the machines will last. But you can read some of the continuing story as part of The Matrix Online.
For the record, I agree with all of this: my issue isn’t the logical framework that conceptualizes the story of the matrix, rather the dialogue and fake-philosophy it tries to spin in your face which makes the message of the movie convoluted and reliant on wiki articles to explicate, which is: existential choice is hard and creating meaning is nearly impossible, but we can’t give up.

Agent Smith eventually starts to make no sense. The matrix devolves into too many players playing a convoluted game. The first matrix is genius. The rest are head-scratching.
 

Hulavuta

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As far as the ending goes, there was no great way to resolve it without an extra hour of denouement, but we'll see how the fourth movie handles it (my hopes aren't great, honestly). It resolved on a positive enough note and the video games do take it further. I haven't played them, so I can't say how well they did that.

Gato said pretty much everything I was going to say (we have talked about the Matrix together for at least like 30 hours or so lol). But to give more detail: The very first Matrix was basically a paradise, and was rejected by humans as they knew it was too good to be true (Smith says this in the first film, and it's reiterated by the Architect in the second). They eventually settled on a version of the Matrix that was basically like real life, not too good, not too bad. And 99% of people accepted this. 1% didn't accept it, but this was only on an unconscious level. This manifested itself in kind of rebellious subcultures, like Neo not fitting in at work, people deciding to stay at home and be hackers instead of going out and socializing, etc. They knew something was wrong with society but didn't know exactly what. They were searching for the Matrix without really knowing what they were looking for.

In order to deal with this, "The One" would lead humans out of the Matrix and into Zion for several years. This is another level of control, but it's not directly the Matrix. The humans think they're rebelling, but it's only because the machines let them do so. Once the population reaches a certain size, they are destroyed and the next The One rebuilds the city. This again is stated in the first film (Morpheus' speech about The One showing up at the beginning of the Matrix and freeing the first people, and that he would then be reincarnated). That stuff is all true, but everyone thought that The One was the first, when there have really been 6 so far.

So in short words, Zion is "controlled" by the machines but not directly in the way the Matrix is. The whole point is the illusion of control (there's a great conversation between Neo and one of the councilmen in the 2nd film about it). The humans have to believe that they're free.

As far as the "the real world is a second Matrix" I don't buy that theory at all, not only because it's not really supported by anything in the story (no matter what MatPat says) but because the idea of freedom still being an illusion in a less physically literal sense to me is far more interesting.

For the record, I agree with all of this: my issue isn’t the logical framework that conceptualizes the story of the matrix, rather the dialogue and fake-philosophy it tries to spin in your face which makes the message of the movie convoluted and reliant on wiki articles to explicate, which is: existential choice is hard and creating meaning is nearly impossible, but we can’t give up.

Agent Smith eventually starts to make no sense. The matrix devolves into too many players playing a convoluted game. The first matrix is genius. The rest are head-scratching.
I'm not sure what you feel makes no sense about Smith (you didn't really say), but personally think Smith is an extremely compelling villain who sees himself as inextricably linked to Neo and therefore finds his purpose in assimilating him. As for the sequels, in retrospect I don't see the first film even working at all (far too many loose ends like past matrices, Smith's motivation, what the oracle is, etc.) without the context the sequels provide.

I used to think the philosophy was just empty words (And I know you were a philosophy major so perhaps you had a more personal idea of how these ideas should have played out, which led to your disappointment). But when I became more open-minded about it, I realized most of it made sense, even if it was delivered in a clunky way (especially the third). I can definitely agree with them being maybe too complicated, and that could be a downside. But when understood, it makes sense to me. I would be happy to discuss that further though.

To your point though, I did watch an interesting video essay here that basically made the argument that the Matrix sequels were too confusing for kids at the time, but also didn't work for adults at the time. And therefore, the only audience that would appreciate them was...people who saw them as kids, once they finally grew up to be adults. I fit that category so I'm inclined to agree.
 

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