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Giving this a go because dragonuser does an analysis and thinks he's all bad and doesn't make changes. Calm Mind Latios is something I've seen pulled of really successfully which rely on Deoxys-S on their revenge killer. It lures in and destroys Azumarill. Completely shatters stall once you weaken Clefable (so Psyshock 2HKOes). It is a really big threat and is good at sweeping. I'll explain more as I go through the analysis. Don't comment until I finish the skeleton - approved by AccidentalGreed
Calm Mind
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name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Psyshock / Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power [Fire]
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (there are some special EVs here, I'll post them later)
Moves
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Set Details
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Usage Tips
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Team Options
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the challenge of getting past ttar clefable bisharp mawile aegislash scizor heatran seems rather great. Also +1 dragon pulse is slightly weaker than draco meteor. I'd like you to specifically address these points and explain why its worth using cm latios when these these things are true.
I feel like there is a way to get creative with Calm Mind and make it work. I'd like to at least wait for the skeleton to be written before rejecting this myself.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 308-363 (76.2 - 89.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
DESTROYED
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Clefable: 149-177 (37.8 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
SHATTERS STALL
I'll wait on rejecting, but you need to convince me.
Seriously you are rejecting his analysis before he even starts doing anything? You aren't even giving him a chance to justify why it would be used, and he specifically requested y'all wait till he's done before you comment.
Don't comment until I finish the skeleton - approved by AccidentalGreed
You need to give this man a chance to complete the skeleton before you decide to reject the set straight off the bat. Sure, it may not "destroy" Azumarill and sure, it may not 2HKO Clefable but you know what does 2HKO physically defensive Clefable 100% of the time (yes, it could use Calm Mind to avoid a 2HKO, but after Stealth Rock it still has a pretty good chance of getting 2HKOed) and OHKOs Azumarill 84% of the time after Stealth Rock? Psychic, a move which you are probably skipping out on because of the importance of Psyshock to "defeat" physical walls. Even then, every variant of Latios will be heavily crippled by and possibly lose to Chansey anyway if it carries Thunder Wave. This happens to all the other Chansey vs Latias scenarios too. Regardless, Psychic is always a possibility to push it into those KO ranges.
So that leaves Ttar, Bisharp, Mawile, Heatran, Scizor, and Aegislash. Scizor is killed by HP Fire and most of them are not offensive anymore. Heatran also needs to be careful of Surf and Calm Mind boosting its special defense, good luck doing much damage to it, as it might just setup on you (unless you are specs then it can kill you outright with Surf). The difference is that at +1 Bisharp will get OHKOed by HP Fire and even Surf, forcing it into the 50/50 mindgame of Sucker Punching it or letting it get off scott free with Pursuit - it can't switch into repeated assaults because even at +0 it will get 2HKOed easy. It still loses to Tyranitar, Mawile, and Aegislash but those 3 are problems for every single Latios out there. Plus they aren't seen as much on stall teams as on other teams.
Sure, it can't run Calm Mind, Dragon Pulse, Psychic STAB, HP Fire, and Surf so it will have problems with certain mons no matter what and it may not be able to beat #1 mon Aegislash (but you could consider one of the 35 checks and counters you listed in its analysis to fix that problem right!?) but rejecting it before he even gives ideas on what to run with it or how to use it or where it fits or something is a bad call. Give Vertex a chance to show you what its worth or at least give a legit reason other than "did you mean BW forums" or "um this is bad" because those reasons reek of laziness, almost as if you didn't even try it out.
EDIT: People get tagged in quotes too? Wasn't aware lol
Okay, um. I wasn't even aware of what happened in this thread until I got tagged.
I don't know what to say except this is just embarrassing. I mean, honestly, did you guys even see this.
And THIS.
He didn't even have a chance to explain why it's good and flesh out the set a bit more, and you guys just treat this like PHYSICAL Ninetales or SPECIAL Gyarados or CHATOT (don't even try and make a joke on how Specs Chatot is TEH BEST) or some crap like that. And then when you reject, you give such good and insightful reasons. Wow. Such perspective. So godly.
So go cool your big heads off and accept that somebody, specifically a guy who's been connected with C&C for some time now and has proven he has set-testing and good competitive perspective, has actually tested this thing out and is taking the time to make the EVs and everything else presentable to you. Give it some respect.
I wish I could record this whole testament, but I just abused bolds and italics and made a doge meme, and that's not fine at all.
In BW, there's actually a physical set (look out for MLatios) with Dragon Dance [Dragon Dance / Outrage / Earthquake / (Zen Headbutt/Draco Meteor/Roost)] as a massive lure.
A set of a pokemon with analysis? One of Latios. Surprise value is fine, and in this case, even though it's not the standard set, it works.
However, I will consider Psychic as a option over Psyshock. With a lot of wall being physically defensive (thre majority of top threats are physical) and Chansey not overly common Psychic is an option.. specially with 10 more Base Power.
Other option is run Surf and not a Psychic move at all.
There's two moves for the last slot worth considering. Draco Meteor (130 BP is nothing to laugh) and specially, Defog (it's one of the best defoggers).
The EV spread is fine. Timid is required for him. Defensive investment is not worth it (use Latias if you want defense).
My point is there are options out there to take down the Pokemon that they mentioned that Latios cannot KO. Psychic may not be better than Psyshock all the time, but if your problems at +1 are Azumarill and Clefable you can run Psychic to make sure these Pokemon are not problems. At +1 its weakened Chansey, Sylveon, and opposing Calm Mind users vs Clefable and Azumarill (plus a KO that may only be a thing with the extra 10 power points, of course). The fact that it has the capability of defeating these Calm Mind users one on one with Psyshock also helps give it a valid reason to shine and be used, right?
Regardless of the circumstances, rejecting a perfectly legitimate set before its even in skeleton form is always too early when the person had gotten it approved beforehand, he says he isn't done yet and will explain more about it later, and hasn't defended his set yet, especially when the reasons that are given are practically not even there. The latter is why I felt like I had the right to assume it wasn't tested quite enough, as assuming they have given it fair judgement is really hard when "ya um this is bad" is a reason for rejection. Why was it bad? What would you use instead? Is it completely overshadowed in this role that someone has evidently found successful? Did the amount of support needed become too much? Do its checks and counters make it unusable (you say it has its checks, but do are these Pokemon ultimately too ubiqitous and hard to remove to make it work at all?). Is it outclassed by another set, and why? Why did the writer find it successful when you found it unsuccessful? (this point is impossible to have known beforehand unless you specifically had a conversation). These are some things you need to consider and explain if you are given an uncompleted set on an already viable Pokemon and need to asses its viability.
I know this may sound a bit snarky, but of all the Pokemon I've seen get rejected I usually see at least a paragraph of "what makes it unviable in today's metagame." One sentence of Latios's typical checks and counters for the entire thing doesn't do justice, especially considering the author has yet to give his points. If you tested it, share your experiences.
EDIT: Directed at dice - I'm not going to make a seperate post for this but a) when I say perfectly legitimate I mean its not some dumb set posted by a noob that's obviously unviable b) I probably am coming across as "high and mighty" because as a C&C mod I feel like I know what I'm talking about and my input has some sort of weight, even if it is likely less than all of you and c) even though it guess you did test it out there was no evidence of it during you rejection. At least Ash Borer posted reasoning in his rejection (even though the OP still has not defended himself) so I have not as much of a problem with that.
who are you to say that this set is "perfectly legitimate"
lol
cm latios is awful. it detracts from any niche latios has in defogging and/or being a check to a few crucial pokes like zard-y / lando / latias because you're using life orb without roost or defog............. you can't bypass mandibuzz particularly, a combination of any two of heatran + tornadus-t + chansey + clefable on stall, and has numerous other checks like bisharp / aegislash on offense
no shit i'm listing checks. they're common. that's why it sucks. and of course y can sweep if you can remove x. that's just a straw man. you can't really break anything and you lose all team support potential by using this set. it's perfectly legitimate for set comments or other options
i figured i was a qc member because i had metagame knowledge and insight as to whether or not a set was legitimate, and it is ridiculously condescending to see the high and mighty swamp rocket to attempt to nullify my rejection based on his supposedly accurate assumption this set is "perfectly legitimate" notwithstanding the fact that i've tested it multiple times
i was trying to prevent the OP from writing anything else because i was going to reject it regardless-- i don't need "teammate options" or "arguments" as to why it is good; i can judge a set based on its moves, make a team around it, and act accordingly without the author's comments. my goal wasn't to attempt to come off as asshole and just reject the analysis without thought. i was simply attempting to reduce the workload the OP had as i assumed it to be futile
not to be an asshole, but really?
if you really want some cookie-cutter argument to accompany the rejection, then sure, but i'm sure i could provide a somewhat convincing one to keep this set as well which is why i find it trivial. you can conjure up preconceived rationalizations for this set without ever testing it to argue for the sake of arguing-- qc is the final say, regardless of other's input, so i don't see a point in providing one. just my $.02
Since this set can't do anything to countless steel types (aegi, ferro, bisharp, mawile, scizor, youre helpless without it) in the tier without HP fire it's basically mandatory. At that you're using a Life Orb booster that really isnt that strong at +1 so HP is incredibly scarce. This completely wastes Latios' defensive abilities, and makes it very hard to boost and attack at all. So then you're looking at a mediocre booster, as it really doesnt hit that hard at +1 and cant really take advantage of +1 sdef, that still can't really touch Chansey, Tyranitar, or Heatran while losing to Aegislash still, as well as potentially Sylveon, and CLefable, Gardevoir, as well as Azumarill. Even though every Latios shares these issues, it can run recovery to continually check yzard/keldeo which is exceedingly important, and it can run Defog which means that it doesnt really care if a Mawile switches in because it still accomplishes something, whereas if you boost as Mawile comes in you've done literally nothing lol. Again, Draco Meteor hits harder than +1 Dragon Pulse so its not like standard Latios is weaker even.
Sorry, but I just don't see any use for this. It's just not good.
QC Reject 3/3
OP has been updated after I tested the set out some more
HTML:
Calm Mind
######
name: Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Psyshock / Psychic
move 4: Hidden Power [Fire]
item: Life Orb
nature: Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (there are some special EVs here, I'll post them later)
I honestly give two craps that this got rejected in WIP but most of the things qc said were wrong because you were theorymoning and to lazy to check if your evidence was right by actually trying out the set or using at least damage calcs
With the recent update, Hidden Power [Fire] stays alone in moveslot 4.
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor: 510-603 (148.2 - 175.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn: 452-536 (128.4 - 152.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile: 265-315 (87.1 - 103.6%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Aegi is 2HKOed but we want that weakened ~60%
Bisharp obv'ed OHKOed.
This completely wastes Latios' defensive abilities, and makes it very hard to boost and attack at all. So then you're looking at a mediocre booster, as it really doesnt hit that hard at +1 and cant really take advantage of +1 sdef, that still can't really touch Chansey, Tyranitar, or Heatran while losing to Aegislash still, as well as potentially Sylveon, and CLefable, Gardevoir, as well as Azumarill.
How is this thing wasting defensive abilities?
252 SpA Life Orb Deoxys-S Ice Beam vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 127-151 (42 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Latios sits at an excellent speed tier and most offensive teams rely on Deoxys-S as their sole revenge killer. The ability to just survive the attack and destroy it with Dragon Pulse and possibly sweep the rest of the team under the right circumstances (which is p. easy). You obv have never used this thing. Defensive abilities isnt the goal of the set. It's to survive these kind of attacks wile setting up and then sweep.
that still can't really touch Chansey, Tyranitar, or Heatran
lol "cant touch Chansey"
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 339-399 (48.1 - 56.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
You just blindly stated it can't touch chansey which proves you have not used this thing
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
I don't want to here the 252 HP thing. It still 2HKOes with Stealth Rock and leftovers recovery
No, it can't touch Heatran, but I hope you except the fact that Aegi and Heatran is something every Latios suffers against. This thing can touch Chansey unlike LO Latios.
Sylveon, and CLefable, Gardevoir, as well as Azumarill
idk if SpD Sylveon is the standard but it OHKOes that variant
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Sylveon: 242-285 (61.4 - 72.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 168-200 (55.6 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
if its bold, it can secure the 2HKO because Hyper Voice doesn't OHKO (lol not even close)
it doesn't touch Clefable, but I have a Psychic slash for 2HKOing it and azumarillwhile it doesnt KO back even wo/ the boost and rocks
Gardevoir can't switch in as its 2HKOed by Psyshock and with some prior damage its beat by it because its really frail so no resist isn't going to save it from a +1 LO Latios.
Azumarill is KOed after 2 switchins into stealth rock / psychic destroys it
Even though every Latios shares these issues, it can run recovery to continually check yzard/keldeo which is exceedingly important, and it can run Defog which means that it doesnt really care if a Mawile switches in because it still accomplishes something, whereas if you boost as Mawile comes in you've done literally nothing lol
Most Latios don't even run Toost as they use Defog instead. Mega Mawile sometimes don't even use Sucker Punch and use Play Rough or SD because Latios can't do anything to it and every competent player knows that Hidden Power [Fire] Latios is rare. HP Fire can do massive damage on the switch especially on the frailer base form
Draco Meteor hits harder than +1 Dragon Pulse so its not like standard Latios is weaker even.
A 1% power difference is nothing in a scenario like this
+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 134-160 (35.8 - 42.7%)
252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Porygon2: 138-164 (36.8 - 43.8%)
You were just mentioning on how its not a powerful booster but I here things about Latios' Draco Meteor is a nuke which is self-contradictory
Sorry, but I just don't see any use for this. It's just not good.
Beats HO teams just because Deoxys-S pretty much can't do anything. Thundurus-I is a porblem but we have teammates for that and we have Aegi and Tar on almost every team so its rarely a problem based on how the meta is evolving. Then completely shatter the rest of the team including there main mega mons like crap like MPinsir. Bisharp and Maw can't switch in but please keep it realistic: we're most likely not going to have all these on one team
Use 2
Fair well against stall
Mega Venusaur loses
Heatran wins
Clefable dies to Psychic or repeated Psyshocks
Quagsire loses
Ferrothorn loses
Mega Scizor loses
TankZardX loses
Hippo dies
Mandibuzz loses most of the time
Tyranitar is 2HKOed so can't switch in
Chansey loses I've used this thing enough and I've killed all chanseys and done enough damage to a point where the opposing team is crushed
This thing is rather of a booster that can function like other sweepers once there C&c have been dealt with. It's not going to be some magic weapon. Having c&c isn't bad. "I'll reject SD Garchomp because it is walled by Clefable, Quagsire, Hippowdon, oh my god checked by mamo and greninja! ok that's not viable so qc rejected 1/3 lol lmfao
Everyone is listing numerous checks and counters and then list one for an example - two things pls pls
I'm not trying to be mean or diss you guys. I want to show you the viability and effectiveness of this set. It works almost every time. I have used this set extensively to tell you this - something people don't do here.
Why was it bad? What would you use instead? Is it completely overshadowed in this role that someone has evidently found successful? Did the amount of support needed become too much? Do its checks and counters make it unusable (you say it has its checks, but do are these Pokemon ultimately too ubiqitous and hard to remove to make it work at all?). Is it outclassed by another set, and why?
the challenge of getting past ttar clefable bisharp mawile aegislash scizor heatran seems rather great. Also +1 dragon pulse is slightly weaker than draco meteor. I'd like you to specifically address these points and explain why its worth using cm latios when these these things are true.
no. Latias can adequately switch into special attackers like Charizard-Y, Landorus-I (better, not good) and Keldeo something Latios can't do. With the exception of a few hyper offensive teams, people don't use healing wish latias, roost is definitely the normal thing to run.
I don't have time to address everything but no you can't touch chans ey. it switches in, toxics and that's the end. Not an effective stallbreaker at all.I'm actually kind of pissed at your filthy argumentation tactics vertex, ill make a long post when I get home.
no. Latias can adequately switch into special attackers like Charizard-Y, Landorus-I (better, not good) and Keldeo something Latios can't do. With the exception of a few hyper offensive teams, people don't use healing wish latias, roost is definitely the normal thing to run.
latios can't switch into keldeo or yzard??? what game do you play. if you run offensive roost latias and not latios you're using an inferior mon and the analyses will remain reflecting that.
I'm actually sad to here this from a well-looked upon mature person like you and a member of the QC team. I don't really want to here an argument from you because of your poor attitude. In fact, you decided to express your poor attitude even though I was being nice in return. Very disappointing - if you feel like it's still not an effective sweeper, then go ahead and move this.
Roost is used more in 1760 stats, surprised the difference isn't bigger.
you are being a bit of an asshole, even if we're making such ridiculous arguments (according to you) the job of a badged user/QC person is to help people with "filthy argumentation tactics" like us. Teach us if you're so mighty.
I haven't felt the need to make a post this shrewd in quite some time...
Roost is used more in 1760 stats, surprised the difference isn't bigger.
you are being a bit of an asshole, even if we're making such ridiculous arguments (according to you) the job of a badged user/QC person is to help people with "filthy argumentation tactics" like us. Teach us if you're so mighty.
I haven't felt the need to make a post this shrewd in quite some time...
I find it funny when usage statistics are posted to support arguments, at least those from the ladder.
Sorry to break it to you but ladder usage means nothing when talking about the viability of a move/Pokemon.
Also, I found it funny how this calc was left out :]
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias in Sun: 126-148 (41.7 - 49%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (And that's not even Modest :O)
So, yeah, the advantages of using Roost Latias > Roost Latios aren't all that big.
Yeah let's talk about the usefulness of Roost Latias in a thread that's devoted solely to a Latios set. Great job staying on task guys. Don't talk shit about other people if you can't even do something as simple as staying on topic.
Anyways no offense Vertex, but you should have been prepared for this more. When you're trying to convince QC to accept a set that was already deemed mediocre countless of times before, don't just post a blank skeleton with absolutely no set explanation and expect QC to just let you write it up when you feel like it. Also if you're so experienced with this set, I find it very hard to believe that you don't have at least ONE replay to support why this set is good. You can't honestly blame QC for rejecting this so fast when you provided zero initial evidence or failed to post any replays of this set working out. That's not how this shit works. Don't get mad at them for doubting your experience with this set when you basically admitted to not having any good solid evidence other than just throwing out calcs and scenarios.
So yeah next time you do something like this, try a little bit harder to prepare ahead of time. Gather some good replays, finish the set beforehand, and at least have a little paragraph in the OP why it should get a set other than just "it fucks stall really hard".
