[3:50 AM] leafeon:
taranteeeno sr im struggling to see where Abra is broken enough within the context of smogon tiering policy seeing as it is not necessary on teams as exhib shows nor are its counters niche enough
[3:50 AM] leafeon: simply not liking webs squads and them being good right now does not seem like a reason towards it being broken more that its just a good and handy mon
[3:51 AM] leafeon: which while annoying does not make it broken under the criteria set
[3:53 AM] taranteeeno sr: i was mainly arguing w the understanding that abra, with trapinch, is too good
[3:53 AM] taranteeeno sr: i don't think it's like mega kangaskhan broken
[3:54 AM] taranteeeno sr: but i don't see it as significantly less broken than like
[3:54 AM] taranteeeno sr: missy or sth
[3:54 AM] taranteeeno sr: well
[3:54 AM] taranteeeno sr: it's definitely worse than missy
[3:55 AM] taranteeeno sr: but i don't think it's particularly easier to check than missy for example
[3:55 AM] taranteeeno sr: like even dig isn't an abra counter, it's just more reliable an answer than p much any other high tier mon
[3:55 AM] leafeon: ok but it being a good mon does not make it broken
[3:55 AM] leafeon: again where does it fit in our current understanding
[3:55 AM] leafeon: of the tiering framework
[3:56 AM] taranteeeno sr: broken
[3:56 AM] leafeon: with objective definitions of
[3:56 AM] leafeon: unhealthy and broken
[3:56 AM] leafeon: howv
[3:56 AM] taranteeeno sr: These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
[3:56 AM] taranteeeno sr: to a degree that our less banworthy bans are broken
[3:57 AM] leafeon: abra does not force extraordinarily niche pokemon to be used
[3:57 AM] leafeon: the common answers to abra on the ladder were
[3:57 AM] leafeon: vullaby, pawnoard, grimer, diglett, trapinch, feintfoo, surskuit
[3:57 AM] meii: [12:53 AM] taranteeeno sr: i don't think it's like mega kangaskhan broken
[12:54 AM] taranteeeno sr: but i don't see it as significantly less broken than like
[12:54 AM] taranteeeno sr: missy or sth
[3:57 AM] meii: what did i just read
[3:57 AM] leafeon: none of which are below B+ on viability
[3:58 AM] leafeon: if abra was forcing the use of hestproof bronzor to be used
[3:58 AM] ligma: can we clarify that statement levi
[3:58 AM] leafeon: then id agree
[3:58 AM] leafeon: but it doesnt clearly
[3:58 AM] leafeon: and teams arent bending over backwards to check ot
[3:58 AM] leafeon: u can check exhib replays for that
[3:58 AM] leafeon: where over half the teams used
[3:58 AM] leafeon: either didnt feature an abra
[3:58 AM] leafeon: or beat a team that had abra
[3:59 AM] leafeon: exhib is the most accurate means of discussing the meta rn
[3:59 AM] leafeon: considering its the most recent tour
[4:01 AM] Ninja: yea id agree tcr
[4:01 AM] Ninja: i think you can run
[4:01 AM] Ninja: v standard or conventional teams
[4:01 AM] Ninja: and have a strong abra mu
[4:02 AM] taranteeeno sr: like abra isnt equally broken as missy, it's definitely less broken on the sliding scale
[4:02 AM] taranteeeno sr: but there were viable ways to deal with it (less viable ways than abra) eg pory, scarfpawn etc
[4:03 AM] taranteeeno sr: none of them were wholly reliable at dealing with missy but there arent rlly wholly viable means to deal with abra either
[4:03 AM] taranteeeno sr: short of like sball munch
[4:04 AM] meii: Whyd abra have to get counter
[4:04 AM] meii: Are we rly sure its legal
[4:05 AM] ligma: yeah
[4:05 AM] ligma: it's legal
[4:06 AM] ligma: you don't think somebody would have figured that out by now
[4:07 AM] leafeon: idc about a sliding scale or comparing it to missy or porygon or whatever
[4:07 AM] leafeon: i want you to frame your argument within the context of the smogon tiering policy
[4:08 AM] leafeon: abra webs and abra counter have clearly defined answers that arent munchlax and bronzor and wynaut
[4:08 AM] leafeon: and teams have an easy abra matchup in many games using a standard ponypinch timburr team
[4:08 AM] leafeon: or any other teams of exhib
[4:09 AM] leafeon: i dont see how you can say there are wholly unviable means of answering abra when the exhib data clearly shows opposite
[4:09 AM] leafeon: are you discounting that data for some reason?
[4:10 AM] leafeon: abra 1) is not a mandatory prescence on teams and the meta does not revolve around it
[4:10 AM] leafeon: if it was wed see much higher usage, abra mirrors, and winrates in exhib and lcwc
[4:10 AM] leafeon: abra also 2) does not require niche pokemon
[4:11 AM] leafeon: scarfpawn vullaby feintfoo surskuit webs diglett are not niche
[4:11 AM] leafeon: the only answers to abra that can be considered “niche” (below B+) are honedge mumchlax bronzor and wynaut
[4:12 AM] leafeon: all of which have extremely low usage
[4:12 AM] meii: completely agree w tcr
[4:12 AM] taranteeeno sr: we don't ban mons literally only because every single answer is niche
[4:12 AM] taranteeeno sr: i used missy as an example of this
[4:12 AM] meii: felt like a lot of flashy words but not enough detail
[4:12 AM] leafeon: youre right but can you provide an example within the context of the tiering framework?
[4:13 AM] meii: In your post
[4:13 AM] taranteeeno sr: and from what i saw lcwc did kind of revolve around abra
[4:13 AM] taranteeeno sr: i honestly haven't looked at exhib lc games outside of the elite ones
[4:13 AM] Ninja: exhib has def been revolving around pinch
[4:13 AM] Ninja: if any mon
[4:13 AM] leafeon: you have yet to say how abra is objectively broken given the definitions of the word
[4:13 AM] leafeon: you mentioned extremely niche pokemon which was rebutted
[4:13 AM] leafeon: you cant fall back on “some mons are just nuanced”
[4:14 AM] taranteeeno sr: err
[4:14 AM] taranteeeno sr: i didnt say that
[4:14 AM] leafeon:
[4:14 AM] taranteeeno sr: i gave an example of how we don't treat the policy framework as the bible
[4:14 AM] taranteeeno sr: no i did use that phrase yes
[4:15 AM] taranteeeno sr: i didn't say the some mons are just nuanced
[4:15 AM] leafeon: you cant say in previous conversations we cant talk about trapinch bc tiering policy is violated
[4:15 AM] leafeon: and then not also subscribe to the definitions set out in the post
[4:16 AM] taranteeeno sr: i just spent an entire post detailing the relation between pinch and abra
[4:16 AM] taranteeeno sr: the definitions are something to consider
[4:16 AM] taranteeeno sr: but historically havent been used as more than that
[4:16 AM] Good Behaviour: tcr is right and levi is wrong
[4:17 AM] Good Behaviour: in this discussion
[4:17 AM] Good Behaviour: just my 2 cents
[4:17 AM] leafeon: ? missy was clearly head and shoulders above every other pokemon beinng super defensive having setup and the biggest attack
[4:17 AM] leafeon: its counters were porygon which still lost
[4:17 AM] leafeon: it had no niche counters bc none existed outside of munch who still lost
[4:17 AM] leafeon: i dont see the comparisons to abra at all other than they have 19 spe
[4:17 AM] leafeon: abra does not have defenses
[4:18 AM] leafeon: abra does not have setup
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: abra potentially beats all of its counters is
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: the biggest comparison
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: but
4:18 AM] meii: not really though
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: this wasnt by the book true, teams could be viable w.o missy
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: and
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: o wait
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: i pasted both pts
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: err
[4:18 AM] taranteeeno sr: no i didnt
[4:19 AM] taranteeeno sr: These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
[4:19 AM] taranteeeno sr: this also wasn't true
[4:19 AM] meii: So are u saying free missy?
[4:19 AM] meii: Suspect logic from a prime pro abra ban guy
[4:20 AM] taranteeeno sr: no i want abra banned u dolt
[4:20 AM] meii: Ya ik
[4:20 AM] meii: Are u trying to argue tha tu dont have to prove abra broken via policy bc
[4:20 AM] meii: Missy didnt fulfill them?
[4:21 AM] meii: Whats next council deciding whats considered broke and whats not