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League of Legends: Let's Talk About uhhh??
- Thread starter Thorns
- Start date
Hey guys I made you a post. Rather, it's me setting the record straight about my favorite thing to bitch about on IRC. I wrote it as a response to this article so you can probably guess what it's going to be about if you click that link before reading down.
From my post on RoG:
I felt it more appropriate to put this on the forum than as a comment because it's long and contains a buttload of math.
Assume a starting point of 100 base AD (something like base + runes/masteries and a couple Doran's around Level 9) and .658 base AS (standard for about half the roster of carries and a rough average), 3% growth per level. 5 + 8% Pen from masteries.
Baseline DPS with Zerks is 100 AD * .948 AS = 94.8 DPS, mitigated by Armor. With 5 + 8% APen...
60-armor target: 63.1 DPS [94.8*100/(100 + 60*.92-5)]
90-armor target: 53.3 DPS
120-armor target: 46.2 DPS
150-armor target: 40.7 DPS
Baseline DPS with Zerks + BT is 210*1.007 = 211 DPS. Plus penetration...
100 Armor target: 113 DPS
130 Armor target: 98.3 DPS
160 Armor target: 87.1 DPS
190 Armor target: 78.2 DPS
Baseline DPS with Zerks + BT + 50% AS steroid is 210*1.336 = 281 DPS. Plus penetration...
100 Armor target: 150 DPS
130 Armor target: 131 DPS
160 Armor target: 116 DPS
190 Armor target: 104 DPS
Keep in mind that with a BT rush. With an IE rush, you'll pretty much always want PD/Shiv second because the value of Crit greatly increases. A BotRK rush... I don't know if it favors LW or IE, I'm not bothering with THAT math, but I'd have to guess the latter. Again, the AS on BotRK raises the value of Crit (albeit less than IE's passive into second-item PD). Vayne and Kog tend to be the ones who rush BotRK anyway and they honestly never need to purchase LW due to their strong, non-physical percentage procs. So which carries want LW?
Twitch? Strong AS steroid, one high-damage nuke but he also has a good AD steroid and weak on-hit. Buy PD/Shiv.
Kog? Small AS steroid, meh AD scaling, awesome on-hit. Buy PD/Shiv.
Tristana? Large AS steroid but no AD scaling at all. Buy IE or PD/Shiv.
Caitlyn? Weak on-hit steroid scales off both AD/AS, high scaling but situational spells. Buy PD/Shiv.
Ashe? No steroid, one average-scaling spell. Buy PD/Shiv.
Varus? Big scaling but his AS steroid is inconsistent. AS helps stack Blight. Buy PD/Shiv.
Corki? No AS steroid, armor reduction actually weakens percent penetration. Buy PD/Shiv.
Draven? Weak AS steroid but ult scales hard and passive works ONLY with penetration. MS helps catch axes and Crit procs passive when Q isn't rolling. Buy PD/Shiv or LW.
Ezreal? Moderate AS steroid with high uptime, on-hit spell that can't crit. Buy LW.
MF? Moderate AS steroid, hard ult scaling, on-hit spell that can't crit. Buy LW.
Vayne? AD steroid only, low scaling, insane on-hit. Buy PD/Shiv.
Graves? Moderate AS steroid with high uptime, big scaling. Buy LW.
Quinn? Inconsistent AS steroid and weak scaling. Buy PD/Shiv.
Sivir? High-scaling nuke but AS steroid is on ult and Ricochet can crit (initial target). Buy PD/Shiv.
As far as non-standard champions, Urgot should definitely buy LW (or rather Cleaver) sooner rather than later because the bulk of his damage is ability-based. Jayce should definitely get LW because Hyper Charge's mechanics make AS largely pointless and lolshockblast poke. From semi-viable (e.g. Kennen) to joke (e.g. Vladimir) off-builds, everyone else should buy PD/Shiv second since they generally lack both AD scaling and AS steroids. You can draw your own conclusions about melee carries.
Some people will buy Zeal before completing second-item LW. Generally speaking, you get more bang for your buck finishing complete endgame items ASAP rather than having parts of multiple items so that's not actually a good idea. Also, of course, some of the carries that shouldn't normally buy second-item LW may do so if the enemy team packs on a lot of armor early on. Up against Taric, someone bought Aegis already and mid rushed Seeker's Armguard? Early LW obviously becomes a more appealing option for the carries that were close to considering it before (e.g. Tristana, not Vayne).
TL;DR
Ezreal, MF, Graves should usually get LW second and Draven should consider it.
Twitch, Tristana, maybe Sivir can consider early LW if the enemy team stacks enough armor early.
Caitlyn, Ashe, Varus, Corki, Quinn should virtually never get LW until at least third.
Kog and Vayne should virtually never get LW, period.
Also a Smogon special! Level 18 Vayne (standard 21/9/0, AD reds LS quints) with IE, PD, BT, Zerks, defensive item.
307 AD, 1.472 AS (.658 base with 123.7% bonus AS), 55% crit chance at 255% crit damage, 5 + 8% APen.
Against a target with 2000 health, 600 armor...
Last item second PD: 307 AD, 1.801 AS, 85% crit (for 2.55x damage), 5 + 8% APen.
Pre-mitigation physical DPS -- 307*1.801*.15 + 307*1.801*.85*2.55 = 1281 DPS
Silver Bolts -- Proc every 3/1.801 seconds for 60 + .08*2000 damage = 132 DPS
Post-mitigation -- 1281*100/(100+600*.92-5) + 132 = 330 DPS
Last item LW: 347 AD, 1.472 DPS, 55% crit (for 2.55x damage), 5 + 8% + 35% APen.
Pre-mitigation physical DPS -- 946 DPS
Silver Bolts -- 108 DPS
Post-mitigation -- 946*100/(100+600*.92*.65-5) + 108 = 316 DPS
What's that? Oh, Silver Bolts gets better as the target's health increases and tanks generally have WAY more than 2000 health endgame? LW gets worse as the target's armor decreases and even pure tanks don't generally reach 400, let alone 600?
:happybrain:
From my post on RoG:
I felt it more appropriate to put this on the forum than as a comment because it's long and contains a buttload of math.
Assume a starting point of 100 base AD (something like base + runes/masteries and a couple Doran's around Level 9) and .658 base AS (standard for about half the roster of carries and a rough average), 3% growth per level. 5 + 8% Pen from masteries.
Baseline DPS with Zerks is 100 AD * .948 AS = 94.8 DPS, mitigated by Armor. With 5 + 8% APen...
60-armor target: 63.1 DPS [94.8*100/(100 + 60*.92-5)]
90-armor target: 53.3 DPS
120-armor target: 46.2 DPS
150-armor target: 40.7 DPS
LW as a first item
Baseline -- 140*.948 = 133 DPS
60 Armor: 102 DPS (59.1g per DPS) [2300g / 102-63.1 DPS]
90 Armor: 89.4 DPS (63.7g per DPS)
120 Armor: 79.8 DPS (68.5g per DPS)
150 Armor: 72.0 DPS (73.5g per DPS)
BT as a first item
Baseline -- 200*.948 = 190 DPS (at max stacks)
60 Armor: 126 DPS (50.9g per DPS)
90 Armor: 107 DPS (59.6g per DPS)
120 Armor: 92.5 DPS (69.1g per DPS)
150 Armor: 81.6 DPS (78.2g per DPS)
BT also heals back 18% of the damage dealt. If you treat it the same as DPS (it effectively mitigates an amount equal to that much enemy DPS), the gold efficiency jumps to: 37.3, 43.9, 50.8, 57.6.
IE as a first item
Baseline -- 170*.948*.75 + 170*.948*.25*2.55 = 224 DPS
60 Armor: 149 DPS (44.2g per DPS)
90 Armor: 126 DPS (52.3g per DPS)
120 Armor: 109 DPS (60.5g per DPS)
150 Armor: 96.1 DPS (68.6g per DPS)
Not going to show the math on burst but I checked Level 9 Graves and it's about equal between LW's penetration and BT's extra raw AD (at 90 Armor), so other carries will surely gain more from BT. That means LW is basically never correct as a rush item. Your response to that might be "No shit, Sherlock." so what about as a second item? Assume BT first, both because it makes calculations a little easier (less crit to handle) and because it's the most gold-efficient rush item. Oh, and we also hit Level 12 in the meantime for a little extra AD and AS.
Baseline -- 140*.948 = 133 DPS
60 Armor: 102 DPS (59.1g per DPS) [2300g / 102-63.1 DPS]
90 Armor: 89.4 DPS (63.7g per DPS)
120 Armor: 79.8 DPS (68.5g per DPS)
150 Armor: 72.0 DPS (73.5g per DPS)
BT as a first item
Baseline -- 200*.948 = 190 DPS (at max stacks)
60 Armor: 126 DPS (50.9g per DPS)
90 Armor: 107 DPS (59.6g per DPS)
120 Armor: 92.5 DPS (69.1g per DPS)
150 Armor: 81.6 DPS (78.2g per DPS)
BT also heals back 18% of the damage dealt. If you treat it the same as DPS (it effectively mitigates an amount equal to that much enemy DPS), the gold efficiency jumps to: 37.3, 43.9, 50.8, 57.6.
IE as a first item
Baseline -- 170*.948*.75 + 170*.948*.25*2.55 = 224 DPS
60 Armor: 149 DPS (44.2g per DPS)
90 Armor: 126 DPS (52.3g per DPS)
120 Armor: 109 DPS (60.5g per DPS)
150 Armor: 96.1 DPS (68.6g per DPS)
Not going to show the math on burst but I checked Level 9 Graves and it's about equal between LW's penetration and BT's extra raw AD (at 90 Armor), so other carries will surely gain more from BT. That means LW is basically never correct as a rush item. Your response to that might be "No shit, Sherlock." so what about as a second item? Assume BT first, both because it makes calculations a little easier (less crit to handle) and because it's the most gold-efficient rush item. Oh, and we also hit Level 12 in the meantime for a little extra AD and AS.
Baseline DPS with Zerks + BT is 210*1.007 = 211 DPS. Plus penetration...
100 Armor target: 113 DPS
130 Armor target: 98.3 DPS
160 Armor target: 87.1 DPS
190 Armor target: 78.2 DPS
LW as a second item
Baseline -- 250*1.007 = 252 DPS
100 Armor: 163 DPS (46.0g per DPS)
130 Armor: 146 DPS (48.2g per DPS)
160 Armor: 132 DPS (51.2g per DPS)
190 Armor: 121 DPS (53.7g per DPS)
IE as a second item
Baseline -- 280*1.007*.75 + 280*1.007*.25*2.55 = 391 DPS
100 Armor: 209 DPS (39.6g per DPS)
130 Armor: 182 DPS (45.4g per DPS)
160 Armor: 161 DPS (51.4g per DPS)
190 Armor: 145 DPS (56.9g per DPS)
PD as a second item
Baseline -- 210*1.336*.7 + 210*1.336*.3*2.05 = 369 DPS
100 Armor: 197 DPS (33.3g per DPS)
130 Armor: 172 DPS (38.0g per DPS)
160 Armor: 152 DPS (43.1g per DPS)
190 Armor: 137 DPS (47.6g per DPS)
At this point, LW starts to beat IE as a second item around at around 160 Armor. PD has both of them cleanly beat at all points (well, until close to 300 Armor anyway) due to the multiplicative nature of both AS + Crit with the AD you already purchased. Of course, PD loses in burst because it provides no benefit to ability-based damage but the added movespeed and much greater autoattack DPS efficiency probably makes it the better buy in most instances. You can always get Shiv if burst damage is a concern, while maintaining relatively high gold efficiency against lower-armor targets.
If you're curious, we can add an AS steroid to the mix to better simulate the damage of carries who have them (which include both Graves and MF).
Baseline -- 250*1.007 = 252 DPS
100 Armor: 163 DPS (46.0g per DPS)
130 Armor: 146 DPS (48.2g per DPS)
160 Armor: 132 DPS (51.2g per DPS)
190 Armor: 121 DPS (53.7g per DPS)
IE as a second item
Baseline -- 280*1.007*.75 + 280*1.007*.25*2.55 = 391 DPS
100 Armor: 209 DPS (39.6g per DPS)
130 Armor: 182 DPS (45.4g per DPS)
160 Armor: 161 DPS (51.4g per DPS)
190 Armor: 145 DPS (56.9g per DPS)
PD as a second item
Baseline -- 210*1.336*.7 + 210*1.336*.3*2.05 = 369 DPS
100 Armor: 197 DPS (33.3g per DPS)
130 Armor: 172 DPS (38.0g per DPS)
160 Armor: 152 DPS (43.1g per DPS)
190 Armor: 137 DPS (47.6g per DPS)
At this point, LW starts to beat IE as a second item around at around 160 Armor. PD has both of them cleanly beat at all points (well, until close to 300 Armor anyway) due to the multiplicative nature of both AS + Crit with the AD you already purchased. Of course, PD loses in burst because it provides no benefit to ability-based damage but the added movespeed and much greater autoattack DPS efficiency probably makes it the better buy in most instances. You can always get Shiv if burst damage is a concern, while maintaining relatively high gold efficiency against lower-armor targets.
If you're curious, we can add an AS steroid to the mix to better simulate the damage of carries who have them (which include both Graves and MF).
Baseline DPS with Zerks + BT + 50% AS steroid is 210*1.336 = 281 DPS. Plus penetration...
100 Armor target: 150 DPS
130 Armor target: 131 DPS
160 Armor target: 116 DPS
190 Armor target: 104 DPS
LW baseline with 50% AS steroid -- 250*1.336 = 334 DPS
100 Armor: 216 DPS (34.8g per DPS)
130 Armor: 193 DPS (37.1g per DPS)
160 Armor: 175 DPS (39.0g per DPS)
190 Armor: 160 DPS (41.1g per DPS)
IE baseline with 50% AS steroid -- 280*1.336*.75 + 280*1.336*.25*2.55 = 519 DPS
100 Armor: 278 DPS (29.7g per DPS)
130 Armor: 242 DPS (34.2g per DPS)
160 Armor: 214 DPS (38.8g per DPS)
190 Armor: 192 DPS (43.2g per DPS)
PD baseline with 50% AS steroid -- 210*1.665*.7 + 210*1.665*.3*2.05 = 460 DPS
100 Armor: 246 DPS (29.2g per DPS)
130 Armor: 214 DPS (33.7g per DPS)
160 Armor: 190 DPS (37.8g per DPS)
190 Armor: 170 DPS (42.4g per DPS)
Obviously, the AS steroid brings PD down a notch more in line with the other two. Both PD and IE maintain a clear lead at lower armor values over LW, plus PD provides movespeed and IE adds some burst with bonus AD. LW plainly wins at ability-based burst (not shown) and will start to pull ahead in autoattack DPS around 175 Armor. LW is reasonably viable at this point for some AD carries.
100 Armor: 216 DPS (34.8g per DPS)
130 Armor: 193 DPS (37.1g per DPS)
160 Armor: 175 DPS (39.0g per DPS)
190 Armor: 160 DPS (41.1g per DPS)
IE baseline with 50% AS steroid -- 280*1.336*.75 + 280*1.336*.25*2.55 = 519 DPS
100 Armor: 278 DPS (29.7g per DPS)
130 Armor: 242 DPS (34.2g per DPS)
160 Armor: 214 DPS (38.8g per DPS)
190 Armor: 192 DPS (43.2g per DPS)
PD baseline with 50% AS steroid -- 210*1.665*.7 + 210*1.665*.3*2.05 = 460 DPS
100 Armor: 246 DPS (29.2g per DPS)
130 Armor: 214 DPS (33.7g per DPS)
160 Armor: 190 DPS (37.8g per DPS)
190 Armor: 170 DPS (42.4g per DPS)
Obviously, the AS steroid brings PD down a notch more in line with the other two. Both PD and IE maintain a clear lead at lower armor values over LW, plus PD provides movespeed and IE adds some burst with bonus AD. LW plainly wins at ability-based burst (not shown) and will start to pull ahead in autoattack DPS around 175 Armor. LW is reasonably viable at this point for some AD carries.
Keep in mind that with a BT rush. With an IE rush, you'll pretty much always want PD/Shiv second because the value of Crit greatly increases. A BotRK rush... I don't know if it favors LW or IE, I'm not bothering with THAT math, but I'd have to guess the latter. Again, the AS on BotRK raises the value of Crit (albeit less than IE's passive into second-item PD). Vayne and Kog tend to be the ones who rush BotRK anyway and they honestly never need to purchase LW due to their strong, non-physical percentage procs. So which carries want LW?
Twitch? Strong AS steroid, one high-damage nuke but he also has a good AD steroid and weak on-hit. Buy PD/Shiv.
Kog? Small AS steroid, meh AD scaling, awesome on-hit. Buy PD/Shiv.
Tristana? Large AS steroid but no AD scaling at all. Buy IE or PD/Shiv.
Caitlyn? Weak on-hit steroid scales off both AD/AS, high scaling but situational spells. Buy PD/Shiv.
Ashe? No steroid, one average-scaling spell. Buy PD/Shiv.
Varus? Big scaling but his AS steroid is inconsistent. AS helps stack Blight. Buy PD/Shiv.
Corki? No AS steroid, armor reduction actually weakens percent penetration. Buy PD/Shiv.
Draven? Weak AS steroid but ult scales hard and passive works ONLY with penetration. MS helps catch axes and Crit procs passive when Q isn't rolling. Buy PD/Shiv or LW.
Ezreal? Moderate AS steroid with high uptime, on-hit spell that can't crit. Buy LW.
MF? Moderate AS steroid, hard ult scaling, on-hit spell that can't crit. Buy LW.
Vayne? AD steroid only, low scaling, insane on-hit. Buy PD/Shiv.
Graves? Moderate AS steroid with high uptime, big scaling. Buy LW.
Quinn? Inconsistent AS steroid and weak scaling. Buy PD/Shiv.
Sivir? High-scaling nuke but AS steroid is on ult and Ricochet can crit (initial target). Buy PD/Shiv.
As far as non-standard champions, Urgot should definitely buy LW (or rather Cleaver) sooner rather than later because the bulk of his damage is ability-based. Jayce should definitely get LW because Hyper Charge's mechanics make AS largely pointless and lolshockblast poke. From semi-viable (e.g. Kennen) to joke (e.g. Vladimir) off-builds, everyone else should buy PD/Shiv second since they generally lack both AD scaling and AS steroids. You can draw your own conclusions about melee carries.
Some people will buy Zeal before completing second-item LW. Generally speaking, you get more bang for your buck finishing complete endgame items ASAP rather than having parts of multiple items so that's not actually a good idea. Also, of course, some of the carries that shouldn't normally buy second-item LW may do so if the enemy team packs on a lot of armor early on. Up against Taric, someone bought Aegis already and mid rushed Seeker's Armguard? Early LW obviously becomes a more appealing option for the carries that were close to considering it before (e.g. Tristana, not Vayne).
TL;DR
Ezreal, MF, Graves should usually get LW second and Draven should consider it.
Twitch, Tristana, maybe Sivir can consider early LW if the enemy team stacks enough armor early.
Caitlyn, Ashe, Varus, Corki, Quinn should virtually never get LW until at least third.
Kog and Vayne should virtually never get LW, period.
Also a Smogon special! Level 18 Vayne (standard 21/9/0, AD reds LS quints) with IE, PD, BT, Zerks, defensive item.
307 AD, 1.472 AS (.658 base with 123.7% bonus AS), 55% crit chance at 255% crit damage, 5 + 8% APen.
Against a target with 2000 health, 600 armor...
Last item second PD: 307 AD, 1.801 AS, 85% crit (for 2.55x damage), 5 + 8% APen.
Pre-mitigation physical DPS -- 307*1.801*.15 + 307*1.801*.85*2.55 = 1281 DPS
Silver Bolts -- Proc every 3/1.801 seconds for 60 + .08*2000 damage = 132 DPS
Post-mitigation -- 1281*100/(100+600*.92-5) + 132 = 330 DPS
Last item LW: 347 AD, 1.472 DPS, 55% crit (for 2.55x damage), 5 + 8% + 35% APen.
Pre-mitigation physical DPS -- 946 DPS
Silver Bolts -- 108 DPS
Post-mitigation -- 946*100/(100+600*.92*.65-5) + 108 = 316 DPS
What's that? Oh, Silver Bolts gets better as the target's health increases and tanks generally have WAY more than 2000 health endgame? LW gets worse as the target's armor decreases and even pure tanks don't generally reach 400, let alone 600?
:happybrain:
in all seriousness unless you're trying to get into diamond I I don't think you will lose games going Zeal into LW on certain ADs or PD second on those with good AS steroids. mathematically these may be the best build orders but it really depends on how YOU personally can play and execute the build, how the game is going, your style/skill and what you enjoy or have fun doing.
DPS is misleading. AD carries get more damage out of building 2 IE's than IE + BT, but they build BT for the utility of being able to heal off potshots in teamfights. Likewise, I don't want to be some pussy ass Vayne that only deals damage every 3rd hit, I want to be useful between that time. I value the flexibility from LW more than the pure DPS from a second PD or a Shiv.
If you're going purely through DPS, let me see you go 2x IE, 2x PD, boots, and a defensive item.
If you're going purely through DPS, let me see you go 2x IE, 2x PD, boots, and a defensive item.
There's a reason nobody buys two IEs and it's because you need lifesteal, bro. Lifesteal is every bit as necessary as pure DPS because it mitigates the enemy DPS equal to its return value: Champion A with 20% lifesteal on 500 DPS will out-duel Champion B with 600 DPS and no LS. That's not even counting the quick healing the former can do just by ducking out of combat to leech off creeps for a bit.
On that note, you should notice LW barely even out-damages the 2x PD build in pure physical damage (208 to 198 DPS) -- crit scales SO hard because of IE passive and relative scarcity to AD/AS -- so it doesn't even help lifesteal much. It is useful against Thornmail if you're not Vayne/Kog, though, because it increases the amount of damage you deal without reflecting as much damage back.
If you're not focusing properly to utilize Silver Bolts, then you should just not play Vayne because it's the only reason to play her. You're doing less DPS at higher risk than any other carry if you take Silver Bolts out of her arsenal.
what?
Where else are you going to make room in your build for a second IE? Even skipping the defensive item, IE PD PD BT/BORK are required, Zephyr can replace boots. Last slot has to be LW unless you're Vayne or Kog and they'd be better off with Shiv or Triforce anyway. Vayne/Kog still don't ram the AS cap with those, due to their lacking AS steroids, while IE overshoots max crit by 10% and the passive is Unique.
Builds throughout the game are flexible, reading into it too much just complicates things. You see Genja get GA as his third item, you never see Doublelift by Statikk.
Played a game the other day where I criticised Caitlyn for getting Hexdrinker (into Maw) as her sixth item after getting Randuin's as a third. (imo Randuins was a good buy to evade the fed Talon's full burst somewhat).
Her final items were BT, BotRK, Greaves, Randuins, Maw and LW. Funnily enough, she dished out more than enough damage to win team fights, especially since she wouldn't immediately die to Hecarim's engage followed by Talon and Lux focus.
In the end, we managed to come out on top, coming back with 3 Aces consecutively despite their Lux, Talon and blue Ez being closed to maxed and their gold lead being something like 7k.
tl;dr buy whatever the fuck you need, not what is mathematically right.
Her final items were BT, BotRK, Greaves, Randuins, Maw and LW. Funnily enough, she dished out more than enough damage to win team fights, especially since she wouldn't immediately die to Hecarim's engage followed by Talon and Lux focus.
In the end, we managed to come out on top, coming back with 3 Aces consecutively despite their Lux, Talon and blue Ez being closed to maxed and their gold lead being something like 7k.
tl;dr buy whatever the fuck you need, not what is mathematically right.
Well, I remember that there are Kha'Zix "changes" on the PBE, but that's about all I can recall off the top of my head. PBE stuff is subject to change so rumours are really just rumours.
aaaand none of which need nerfs. riot's balance team bugs me. way too many knee-jerk, unjustified nerfs
the problem with zac is his god-damn kit. there are no nerfs on earth that could stop him being extremely strong.
well, that's the problem when you have balance changes on a 2-3 week timer. you can't let anything develop.
how can you think jayce doesn't need nerfs? every single poke comp pros run is built around him, and unlike nidalee spears he offers CC and peel to the team as well as being tankier AND a free shurelyas to his team.
jayce's kit is retardedly overloaded and his poke damage output should be toned down. stupid champion. he also wins most every lane top because of his range and disengage if anyone gapcloses onto him, there are some matchups he doesn't outright bully but meh. he's been retarded for months now, this is a totally justified hit.
jayce's kit is retardedly overloaded and his poke damage output should be toned down. stupid champion. he also wins most every lane top because of his range and disengage if anyone gapcloses onto him, there are some matchups he doesn't outright bully but meh. he's been retarded for months now, this is a totally justified hit.
I agree, remove Hammer Form Armor/MR just like they have for every other damn transformation. ;[ Other than that, no I don't really mind Jayce that much. Nidalee might not have that other cool stuff but she does have a heal (with a moderate AS steroid attached) and lol12secondsofvisionandmassiveshred traps. It's not the same type of utility but it is there. Then again, I am rarely in favor in nerfs.
After figuring out what you need, how do you proceed to satisfy that need? RNG? Whatever looks the prettiest? Gotta go fast? As far as simply best odds to win the game is concerned, you buy what gives you the most bang for your buck.
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=55809-mi_ramfan-shyvana-build-guide
shameless advertisement for a tl;dr shyvana guide
On the ADC build topic:
If your ADC has lots of AD ratios go BT->PD->IE
If your ADC has a spammable spell go Sheen->BT->Triforce
If your ADC scales really hard late game go Vamp Scepter->IE->PD->BT
You can always throw in early Brutalizer to spice things up, or Wriggles if you're getting raped in lane, but other then that you don't need to know more then 2 or 3 builds for ADC.
shameless advertisement for a tl;dr shyvana guide
On the ADC build topic:
If your ADC has lots of AD ratios go BT->PD->IE
If your ADC has a spammable spell go Sheen->BT->Triforce
If your ADC scales really hard late game go Vamp Scepter->IE->PD->BT
You can always throw in early Brutalizer to spice things up, or Wriggles if you're getting raped in lane, but other then that you don't need to know more then 2 or 3 builds for ADC.
why are you maxing useless breath before twin bite?
IMO the strong point of breath is the -15% armor reduction, and that stays the same at all levels. 39 magic damage on hit for 4 seconds isn't that strong when you compare it to Twin Bite's CD going from 10 to 6 seconds. This is actually huge because if you stick to a target and autoattack him you can pop a twin bite every ~3 seconds at max rank whereas if you leave it at rank 1 you take like 6~7 seconds.
also frozen mallet / iceborn fist are super core on shyvanna (from my experience anyway) and IDK why you're getting sunfire first unless you desperately need to tank up.
At lower levels of play where there is no peel for the AD it makes sense to buy more defensive items.
However, at higher levels an AD simply cannot get away with building zero critical strike chance, because your damage output over time will be roughly half of what it would otherwise be.
Acklow
I am always tired. Don't bother me.
Actually the strong point of breath is not just the 15% armor reduction but the passive that falls alongside it in that her autos on the debuffed target is increased by 15% in flame breath's damage to said target. I personally max q over e, but I see where he's coming from, and maxing e in lane is actually stronger than q since you can poke with it and get some nice damage in with it if you land it on your lane opponent. Sadly she's still not as strong or viable as she used to be and there are better picks out there than her. I like playing her top every now and then because of how powerful she is at dueling.
