actually weavile can still pull protect/boost(until protect receives similar treatment) to pull off a more useful set(4PP per turn)
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Whether Protect stays up when U-Turning and so on is a very important question that hadn't even occurred to me. That's a pretty scary thought: 100% safe switch-in!
The reason protect might be broken is that it guarantees fast pokemon a free turn, something that should only be possible with good predictions.
Honestly it would be so much simpler if Fake Out was banned altogether instead of banning it from being linked or banning the combination of Fake Out + U-turn. Think about it. This meta is already a little bit complicated. The more complicated it gets, the less likely it is that people will be willing to play it. Simplicity means that people can easily enter the metagame and understand it, meaning more players and more success for the metagame overall. Complex bans like that are a very bad idea in my opinion. Of course the final decision is up to Hack_Guy, but I think Fake Out should be banned completely. Protect might also be worth considering.
yeah if it does, Bedrill gets both. I'll wait a minute for that to sink in
Wheres your god know
yeah that's pretty terrifying
also there is no such thing as a free turn- always an opportunity cost
personally i think if things were going to be banned it would either be the combo fake/turn or just protect in link
banning a move like fake out all together would irratate me, becuase the move isn't broken, over centralizing maybe
but fake boost, can only be used once per being in as opposed to more than once like protects every other turn boost spam
Wheres your god know
yeah that's pretty terrifying
also there is no such thing as a free turn- always an opportunity cost
personally i think if things were going to be banned it would either be the combo fake/turn or just protect in link
banning a move like fake out all together would irratate me, becuase the move isn't broken, over centralizing maybe
but fake boost, can only be used once per being in as opposed to more than once like protects every other turn boost spam
Another thought: Super Fang+Assurance. Half their health and then hit them 100 BP move. Note that Sharpedo and Mightyena are the only Pokemon that get this and STAB on Assurance though. (Mega Sharpedo is better off with Crunch)
Assurance has 60 BP as of genVI instead of 50 BP
Well, regarding the fake out/protect issue, if the moves are inside the link, they either loose their priority or get potentially negative priority (whichever one people find to be more balanced) so protect only has any use on incredibley fast Pokemon that would've been able to set up anyways. Fake out works in the same manner
This will be the scariest meta ever, Hack lol
Ok so if Protect and Fake Out aren't getting banned, this meta is probably going to be insanely fast and filled with pokemon that have multiple priority moves just to prevent these two moves (mostly Fake Out) from dominating. Anything slower than Ambipom (115 base speed) that doesn't have priority can easily give the opponent a free turn because Ambi can just Fake Out+U-turn into whatever teammate it chooses without any fear of that teammate taking a hit on the switch. It makes predictions much less necessary. Anything slower than Infernape (108 base speed) that's not a Ghost could suffer an endless onslaught of switching between Ambipom and Infernape using the Fake Out+U-Turn strategy.
Another thought is that both Ambipom and Infernape could hold Choice Scarves, making them outspeed almost everything except a few rare Scarf holders like Greninja.
(EDIT: Maybe Mega Gallade's Inner Focus ability will actually be useful here to prevent the Fake Out spam!)
Another thought I had just before clicking "Post Reply", Ninjask could be incredibly useful if Protect stays legal. It has 160 base speed, easily outspeeding any Fake Out+U-Turn users, and it can Protect and Swords Dance in one turn while gaining a boost in speed. Assuming the opponent doesn't hit it with priority, I can't imagine it would have much difficulty getting to 4x attack and at least 3.5x speed with a set like this:
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Use Protect+Swords Dance the first turn it's out. It's now at 2x attack and 1.5x speed. Then Substitute to take the next hit and avoid the risk of Protect failing. Repeat. It's Ninjask's old strategy of repeatedly using Protect/Sub to set up Speed Boost, but now it's increasing its Attack at the same time.
Another thought is that both Ambipom and Infernape could hold Choice Scarves, making them outspeed almost everything except a few rare Scarf holders like Greninja.
(EDIT: Maybe Mega Gallade's Inner Focus ability will actually be useful here to prevent the Fake Out spam!)
Another thought I had just before clicking "Post Reply", Ninjask could be incredibly useful if Protect stays legal. It has 160 base speed, easily outspeeding any Fake Out+U-Turn users, and it can Protect and Swords Dance in one turn while gaining a boost in speed. Assuming the opponent doesn't hit it with priority, I can't imagine it would have much difficulty getting to 4x attack and at least 3.5x speed with a set like this:
Ninjask @ Leftovers
Ability: Speed Boost
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Protect
- Swords Dance
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
Use Protect+Swords Dance the first turn it's out. It's now at 2x attack and 1.5x speed. Then Substitute to take the next hit and avoid the risk of Protect failing. Repeat. It's Ninjask's old strategy of repeatedly using Protect/Sub to set up Speed Boost, but now it's increasing its Attack at the same time.
You have a very valid point when you talk about protect and fake out becoming centralizing. So I'll make this the first official suspect, protect And fake out
I'll give it some time and see whether the moves should be banned or not
I do think that Protect and Fake Out will probably be over centralising, but given that they are now being suspected I may as well through this out their given that I don't think it has been mentioned yet.
Earlier on there was a lot of hype about Protect+Boosting move. I don't think this will be as powerful as it was made up to be due to loss of coverage.
e.g. Mega Zard-X if going for Protect+DD is hurt by its loss of coverage quite badly. Without EQ it is walled by Heatran and without FB it is walled by Skarmory, both common threats.
That said the these Fake Out / Protect + VoltTurn shenanigans are seeming pretty ridiculous.
There are counters like Mega Bro and Mega Gallade but I think they will just be too over centralising.
Earlier on there was a lot of hype about Protect+Boosting move. I don't think this will be as powerful as it was made up to be due to loss of coverage.
e.g. Mega Zard-X if going for Protect+DD is hurt by its loss of coverage quite badly. Without EQ it is walled by Heatran and without FB it is walled by Skarmory, both common threats.
That said the these Fake Out / Protect + VoltTurn shenanigans are seeming pretty ridiculous.
There are counters like Mega Bro and Mega Gallade but I think they will just be too over centralising.
I'm all for banning Fake Out/banning it from being a part of a link -none of the proposed link behaviors really get around how heavily abusable it is. If a different behavior is proposed that addresses it, then never mind, but current ideas would turn the metagame into: Ambipom and friends vs their hard-counters (And the occasional soft counter -Inner Focus Pokemon), the end.
Big thing to me is that Draco Meteor/V-Create/Superpower/Close Combat/etc are almost as powerful (Or more in the case of V-Create) and their disadvantages are more ignorable if you do kill the target on the first hit. (You can always just switch manually, worst-case scenario, and it's entirely possible you can just V-Turn again or whatever)
the only issue with that set is things that link two attacks together(ninjask will always have its sub broken then get killed in those scenarios)
All the things you're talking about also run Fake Out. My argument is that Fake Out should be banned. You're just making my point even more valid.
And you miss my point-those are only things with u turn Fakeout combo
Fake out can be used only on the turn you come in correct?
so this makes fake/turn unbreakable baring priority/scarf/unbonded protect/rocky helmet
I think all of us agree that this is bad as it kills stall entirely so say we ban the combo fake/turn
The other fake out strategies are boost/attack
snice fake out can only be used on the first turn it is out
this let's some currently bad pokemon become viable because they are able to set up (note the viable not broken)
Until this is coded there is no good way to tell.
as for fake/attack guarantee one turn they can't retaliate in is not that great when you consider your loosing the raw power of two powerful attacks.
let's look at protect you are guaranteed one turn if you are faster than your opponent. Now you can start to gamble 50/50 you can try to boost again or you attack and attempt to KO the opponent say you succed, now protect boost again, repeate.
Protect is if any thing more overcentrilicizing than fake out in terms of boosting.
Now let's look at protect attacknowledge on something like grenija so let's say he wants to spam a bunch of darkpulse/protect
he has 1 guaranteed move against non priority non faster pokemon followed by a .6 (dark flinch) chance of a second free move.
Basically unless your going running u turn protect is a much better option than fake out
In my opinion
protect is uncompetitive because it limits what your opponent can do to a large degree. And leaves a large amount of the game in favor of the user
because fake out can be used only on the first turn it is much less limiting for your opponent.
Fake/volt/turn/pass is both uncompetitive and broken, because it both limits team building to an excessive deggree and can alow two pokemon to literally take on entire teams with out giving them a chance to act.
Fakeout/other moves allows you to guarantee one move in a given priorit bracket against something slower the first turn your in.
so when exactly does this matter for the fast users who have no bulk
1: a free switch ie good prediction
2: a slow volt/turn: part of good team building to get in your sweeper for free and generally requires good prediction from the user as well as being counterable by good prediction from the opponent.
3: something on your team died: basically they just killed something on your team you are now at a disadvantage.
So there is actually a very high opertunity cost for running fake out with out its priority boost in that it lacks power (40bp plus being normal)and will almost always be neutral priority. Like I say below wait on that one.
One more note u turn voltswitch may also be over centralizing but we should wait on that until the meta is implimented
So again my opinion
ban protect clones in the link
ban Fake Out +Volt switch/ U-turn/baton pass/parting shot (plus any other self phasing moves)
Fake out should wait until the meta is coded, implimented and been up for a few days.
also because of the way this meta is set up no moves should be flat up banned.
Banned in the link sure.
because this meta is based on ou if any move were broken it would be banned to begin with so moves(move combos)should only banned from the link.
and giving a move lower priority than zero just for being in the link would make this way to complicated due to having to keep track of every move with decreased priority
Edit: errors some new concepts
Fake out can be used only on the turn you come in correct?
so this makes fake/turn unbreakable baring priority/scarf/unbonded protect/rocky helmet
I think all of us agree that this is bad as it kills stall entirely so say we ban the combo fake/turn
The other fake out strategies are boost/attack
snice fake out can only be used on the first turn it is out
this let's some currently bad pokemon become viable because they are able to set up (note the viable not broken)
Until this is coded there is no good way to tell.
as for fake/attack guarantee one turn they can't retaliate in is not that great when you consider your loosing the raw power of two powerful attacks.
let's look at protect you are guaranteed one turn if you are faster than your opponent. Now you can start to gamble 50/50 you can try to boost again or you attack and attempt to KO the opponent say you succed, now protect boost again, repeate.
Protect is if any thing more overcentrilicizing than fake out in terms of boosting.
Now let's look at protect attacknowledge on something like grenija so let's say he wants to spam a bunch of darkpulse/protect
he has 1 guaranteed move against non priority non faster pokemon followed by a .6 (dark flinch) chance of a second free move.
Basically unless your going running u turn protect is a much better option than fake out
In my opinion
protect is uncompetitive because it limits what your opponent can do to a large degree. And leaves a large amount of the game in favor of the user
because fake out can be used only on the first turn it is much less limiting for your opponent.
Fake/volt/turn/pass is both uncompetitive and broken, because it both limits team building to an excessive deggree and can alow two pokemon to literally take on entire teams with out giving them a chance to act.
Fakeout/other moves allows you to guarantee one move in a given priorit bracket against something slower the first turn your in.
so when exactly does this matter for the fast users who have no bulk
1: a free switch ie good prediction
2: a slow volt/turn: part of good team building to get in your sweeper for free and generally requires good prediction from the user as well as being counterable by good prediction from the opponent.
3: something on your team died: basically they just killed something on your team you are now at a disadvantage.
So there is actually a very high opertunity cost for running fake out with out its priority boost in that it lacks power (40bp plus being normal)and will almost always be neutral priority. Like I say below wait on that one.
One more note u turn voltswitch may also be over centralizing but we should wait on that until the meta is implimented
So again my opinion
ban protect clones in the link
ban Fake Out +Volt switch/ U-turn/baton pass/parting shot (plus any other self phasing moves)
Fake out should wait until the meta is coded, implimented and been up for a few days.
also because of the way this meta is set up no moves should be flat up banned.
Banned in the link sure.
because this meta is based on ou if any move were broken it would be banned to begin with so moves(move combos)should only banned from the link.
and giving a move lower priority than zero just for being in the link would make this way to complicated due to having to keep track of every move with decreased priority
Edit: errors some new concepts
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cant post effectively from mobile, but the following learn some combination of a lock-on clone and dynamic punch / zap cannon / inferno, barring illegality issues
dynamic punch: poliwrath, machamp, breloom, conkeldurr, hariyama, medicham, blastoise, golduck, primeape, politoed, alakazam, hitmonlee, hitmonchan, hitmontop, kangaskhan, jynx, snorlax, mewtwo, typhlosion, furret, ampharos, weavile, swampert, probopass, sableye, granbull, dusclops, dusknoir, metagross, regirock, regice, registeel
zap cannon: magneton, magnezone, porygon2, porygon-z, ampharos, probopass, regirock, regice, registeel, klingklang, genesect
inferno: typhlosion, houndoom, heatmor
dynamic punch: poliwrath, machamp, breloom, conkeldurr, hariyama, medicham, blastoise, golduck, primeape, politoed, alakazam, hitmonlee, hitmonchan, hitmontop, kangaskhan, jynx, snorlax, mewtwo, typhlosion, furret, ampharos, weavile, swampert, probopass, sableye, granbull, dusclops, dusknoir, metagross, regirock, regice, registeel
zap cannon: magneton, magnezone, porygon2, porygon-z, ampharos, probopass, regirock, regice, registeel, klingklang, genesect
inferno: typhlosion, houndoom, heatmor
Mew @ Choice Scarf / Choice Band
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Spore
-Focus Punch
filler
filler
Sleep the opponent and pound them with a Focus Punch.
Also, this:
Articuno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Jolly Nature
-Lock On
-Sheer Cold
filler
filler
Never unban OHKOs.
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant/Jolly Nature
-Spore
-Focus Punch
filler
filler
Sleep the opponent and pound them with a Focus Punch.
Also, this:
Articuno @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Jolly Nature
-Lock On
-Sheer Cold
filler
filler
Never unban OHKOs.
Mulan15262 's Mew set brings up an interesting point. How does Focus Punch work if it's in the link? Since I think we decided that all priority would be lowered to that of the lowest priority in the link, wouldn't that mean that both the "focus" phase and the actually attacking phase of Focus Punch would happen simultaneously? Or would the Focus part happen at the start of the turn regardless of where Focus Punch is in the link, and then the attack would happen at the end of the turn? The second option is preferable imo. If the first option were true then Focus Punch would always hit the opponent because there is no opportunity to attack it between the focus and attacking phases of the move.
I'd say the the latter seems like a more plausible and balanced way to manage focus punch (assuming that this meta can be balanced XP)
Edit: fixed a typo
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