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(Little) Things that annoy you in Pokémon
- Thread starter BriarRose
- Start date
Case and point, HYDREIGON
Who in their right mind decided that Deino should evolve into Zewilous at LEVEL 50, and then again into Hydreigon at LEVEL 64!?!
The damn thing isn't even gonna get to Hydreigon unless you use it heavily in the postgame! But by then the adventure is over so there is nothing for it to really do outside of competitive!
Oh and let's not forget, in BW2 you can catch Level 25 Mandibuzz / Braviary on route 4 with their hidden abilities on the right days, like Gamefreak realized that the late game mons had horrible evolutionary requirements, but didn't feel like fixing them (or at least adjusting it from Gen 6 onwards).
As time went on, Game Freak tended to do a better job of making major characters like the gym leaders into, you know, characters. Like, people you'd see out and about around their towns, just doing stuff. They sometimes have at least something more to them than just standing in place in a gym forever to serve as a boss that you see once and then never again.
But the same can so rarely be said of the elite four. They might as well just live at the league building, and it's really jarring because said building is basically in the middle of nowhere in so many of the games. It's so bad that I frequently forget who's actually in the E4 in several games.
Even structuring the group as an "elite four" is awkwardly formulaic. The existence of a champion beyond the E4 was a plot twist exactly once, in gen 1, and even then, calling that a "twist" is being generous.
But the same can so rarely be said of the elite four. They might as well just live at the league building, and it's really jarring because said building is basically in the middle of nowhere in so many of the games. It's so bad that I frequently forget who's actually in the E4 in several games.
Even structuring the group as an "elite four" is awkwardly formulaic. The existence of a champion beyond the E4 was a plot twist exactly once, in gen 1, and even then, calling that a "twist" is being generous.
Anyone else still sad that Ultra Necrozma is unobtainable outside of USUM?
I dislike that certain forms are potentially being locked due to generational mechanics. I mean obviously Eternamax Eternatus was never meant to be capturable or usable (sidenote, found it interesting Eternabeam was cut and Dynamax Cannon was kept lol), but Ultra Necrozma involved a Z-Crystal specifically and hasn’t been seen since, Terapagos will lose its Tera Form likely too, as will Ogrepon.
Just sad when we lose forms. Dynamax’s I really didn’t care about losing tbh. Not even Megas that much.
I dislike that certain forms are potentially being locked due to generational mechanics. I mean obviously Eternamax Eternatus was never meant to be capturable or usable (sidenote, found it interesting Eternabeam was cut and Dynamax Cannon was kept lol), but Ultra Necrozma involved a Z-Crystal specifically and hasn’t been seen since, Terapagos will lose its Tera Form likely too, as will Ogrepon.
Just sad when we lose forms. Dynamax’s I really didn’t care about losing tbh. Not even Megas that much.
This is why I enjoyed SV actually introducing them beforehand and having 3 out of the 4 -the odd one being a literal child- actually have a job outside of the E4. Having them interact with each other also fleshed them out as characters and the Larry twist is great. They are not just a boss rush that as you say may only live in the building. The only bad part was them not having unique rooms but I will take interactions over that.
I hope they at least build them up similarly in Gen 10.
I really wonder why they added 3 different Tauros breeds but there isn't any kind of Miltank. I know black bulls are the sterotype of Spain but we surely had more to offer in regional forms... in general I get the feeling the Paldea dex is less carefully picked than the main Galar one, even if both have weird omissions.
Its even more infuriating if we take into account the fact that Spain does have some relevant local cow breeds in Asturias and Galicia regions. In fact, in Galicia each year they organize the "Miss cow" contest, in which a cow from each Galician province (4 in total) is voted to be the most beautiful (previously they have to be voted to be represented in by their own province). https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miss_Vaca < Article is not available in English, but you can translate. For some reason Lugo province almsot always wins.
I feel like most Megas are less painful because it's clear the mons are designed to be complete without them since the Mega only showed up in a later generation. There's a good number of gen 8 mons that are in awkward places without their GMaxes (there was at least an attempt to compensate with Duraludon and the Applin line), and I usually group Mega Diancie into that category as well. Certainly not a reason to get attached to Terapagos.
Wasn't Eternabeam cut because the animation uses the Eternamax form?
Idk I kinda like the melodrama of the Elite Four being this weird sequestered group of the most powerful trainers who just sit around in separate rooms waiting for challengers, like there's something fun and nonsensical about the theatre of it all. In early gens, they might as well be gods the way NPCs talk about them (on the rare occasions where they even get a mention). The formula got stale for sure, but I've preferred it when at least one or two E4 members were total strangers to the player outside of the pre- and post-battle dialogue. I don't necessarily think more characterisation is always better.
I understand why the games are trending in this direction though: with features like postgame DLC and an increasing focus on multiplayer, it's much harder to sell the E4 as the peak of Pokemon battling, so instead they're just another stepping stone for the player on their way to greater heights, much like Gym Leaders. The newer games are generally easier, so E4 members rarely stand out for their difficulty; having a strong personality fleshed out across multiple encounters becomes the only way for them to be memorable.
Ultra Necrozma is really the only instance of this that sticks out to me, because UN is so blatantly “Necrozma made whole again” in terms of its design. Regular, Dusk, and Dawn Necrozma are all fundamentally incomplete, and unlike Kyurem, we actually got to see (and use) the “completed” version. So now every game with Necrozma but without UN feels cut off.
It’s a lot easier for me to think of Mega Evolutions, Gigantamaxes, and Ogerpon and Terapagos’s forms as special case “power ups” that the Pokémon in question can still feel “complete” without. Megas (except maybe Diancie) all already were, Gigantamaxes are just exploring the idea of what Pokémon designs could look like if jacked up to titanic sizes; Ogerpon still has its central mask gimmick and probably always will, and Terapagos-S is just regular Terapagos sitting on an egg and wearing a crown, so Terapagos-T feels no less “complete” to me.
In National Dex, Mega Abomasnow has the ability snow warning, despite never being in the game when snow was added. It should have hail warning.
I always see people say the gen 8 lines feel incomplete without their G-Maxes but I've never really gotten that. Most of them feel (a split between "what if this but more" and "what if it was jokes". Being mostly-cosmetic probably helps me, but even beyond that I was never really seeing G-Max Duraludon, Alcremie, Drednaw etc and going "why were these not the actual Pokemon?!" G-Max Appletun/Flapple did get me to have a different reaction but that's mostly because it felt so segregated from their OG that it felt like a third part of the line that they designed but didn't want to throw away. Which even in a post-Dipplin world I still feel.
And while it DOES have more changes (ability, stats...typing technically) I also feel less bad about Terapagos losing Stellar Terapagos because the design is just uhhhh. Terapagos, on a geode, wearing a crown. The actual important part of the design- Terapagos's Terastal Form - is still present in its usual form.
Likewise Ogerpon; the terastalized masks with Embody Aspect are cool but the core of Ogrepon is still the little green gal with the silly masks and giant mace its going to club you to death with.
And while it DOES have more changes (ability, stats...typing technically) I also feel less bad about Terapagos losing Stellar Terapagos because the design is just uhhhh. Terapagos, on a geode, wearing a crown. The actual important part of the design- Terapagos's Terastal Form - is still present in its usual form.
Likewise Ogerpon; the terastalized masks with Embody Aspect are cool but the core of Ogrepon is still the little green gal with the silly masks and giant mace its going to club you to death with.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
There's a line from HGSS I've always liked that puts a little more meat on the bones of this:
Janine: "I'm on my way to my dad's house to give him his lunch. The Elite Four has no time to rest, day or night. It's such hard work, you know?
Though the notion of them having "houses" is weird. I kind of assumed they all live at Indigo Plateau and just have their own apartments/chambers there.
I wonder how much of that tireless work is the Elite Four and how much of it is just Koga.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
He does seem like the kind of person who'd come on a bit too strong as a new hire.
Nope there was an alternate version of the animation for when a non-Eternatus Pokémon used Eternabeam in SwSh, which would have went basically unused if not for the Ditto animation bug in earlier version of SwSh, that didn't include Eternamax.
Granted it does feel like it'd be more important for Eternatus to show off Eternamax when using Eternabeam so if "we don't want to update and import the old eternamax model for a single move" was a reason, I can see why they wouldn't want to keep the move but cut the actual important part of the move.
Also since they'd need to make a new animation for it anyway they probably could have just made some more minor Eternamax model or maybe even a billboarding JPEG to work with the animation somehow. Even with the change in how animations can work (I presume due to the new camera) I think they could've made something work, not like there aren't more cinematic affairs.
Ah well, maybe in Gen 10 or 11.
Also since they'd need to make a new animation for it anyway they probably could have just made some more minor Eternamax model or maybe even a billboarding JPEG to work with the animation somehow. Even with the change in how animations can work (I presume due to the new camera) I think they could've made something work, not like there aren't more cinematic affairs.
Ah well, maybe in Gen 10 or 11.
They seem somehow allergic to majorly altering things I feel. (which really annoys me)
We never see complete stat redos despite a lot of mons needing it (Gen 3 stat spread says hi), only small increases of 10 in single stats or maybe an ability gets changed to one that is more fitting. Evolution Levels and Requirements are a complete mess, even outside of Gen V. (this probably could be said about more things than just the Pokemon themselves...)
I would really like to know why they refrain from more drastic changes, especially since at least with Evo Levels it should be a fairly simple change that shouldn't require that much balancing thought
I can understand why they don't want to fully overhaul a given Pokemon, but evolution levels are definitely something they can and should tweak considering how often they keep wanting to offer them as early/mid-game Pokemon. The "magikarp" style of evolution only works when it's a short period of babying, but that is not the design ethos at all.
You could take -10 Levels off several of them and while it'd honestly still be too much for some of them, it'd be a lot more flexible
You could take -10 Levels off several of them and while it'd honestly still be too much for some of them, it'd be a lot more flexible
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
I don't entirely disagree but you've kind of undermined your point by pointing to the times they did change things. Abilities sometimes get swapped between generations, Pokemon sometimes get stat alterations, and so on. Evolution requirements do get modified with relative frequency, albeit generally based on changes in mechanics between games rather than for the sake of ease.
And those are largely minor tweaks but there's one big thing that consistently changes, which is moves - the mechanics, effects, and PP of moves routinely get edited between generations and sometimes even between games in the same generation. Sometimes this affects the metagame more than actual gameplay but there are lots of changes you can point to which make Pokemon far less effective in one game than they were in another or severely lessens the utility of a particular move.
Ultimately though it's about consistency, which I actually think is a fair justification not to alter things too much. Minor changes for the sake of gameplay are one thing but part of why I enjoy this series is its mechanical consistency, or at least the sense of continuity that brings. If I transferred a Pokemon I'd been using for years to a newer game and found that it'd been significantly nerfed or altered I'd be pretty put out.
And I don't even entirely disagree that evolutionary levels shouldn't be changed but you say "it shouldn't require much balancing thought" - well, yeah no I'm not sure that's entirely right. Looking at Braviary for example, it has a BST of 510 which is on par with Pokemon which have evolved twice and is far more powerful than most other Pokemon who share its typing - 54 is a little excessive, yes, but it starts to look a little more proportional when you compare it with Pidgeot (469) which evolves at level 36, Dodrio (460) which evolves at level 31, or even Swellow (430) which evolves at level 22.
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On the other hand if you zoom in on the 2-stage 500 BST lines....
Houndour evolves into the Houndoom at level 25. But if that's too early generation-wise to really take in, that's fine because....
Clauncher evolves at level 37
Binacle evolves at level 39
Mudbray evolves at level 30
Cufant evolves at level 34
If you want a 3-stage companion piece there's the Garganacl line which arrives at the final stage at level 38
in otherwords I think that Vullaby, Rufflet, Pawniard and Mienfoo could all comfortably evolve at levels 30~40 (probably the back half of that, they all have 35+ energy for me imo) depending on what flavor suits them. And then just...keep that as the standard moving forward. Nothing's really gained from fine tuning them game to game, you know? But ironing out one change that suits all games feels fairly feasible.
Level 30 I think would work great for Noibat too. Since Noibat is statistically equivalent to Zubat and Noivern equivalent to Crobat, it'd place the evolution approximately around the time your Golbat might evolve.
Larvesta is "special" so it could probably keep its high level, though maybe just tweak it to 55.
Deino & Dreepy can and probably should be brought down to at least the Dragonite standard if they insist on wanting them to have "high levels". "Balance" wise all the pseudos are meant to be in thsoe kind of level ranges and they keep using them interchangably even when made version exclusives, so....
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
As I said, 54 is a little excessive so anywhere between 38-45 would be fine. The same goes for any of the others like Mienfoo. Even Gen I and II have a few Pokemon who evolve late: Koffing, Muk, Magcargo et al.
I don't see the point of reducing Larvesta to 55. It's meant to be a titanic grind, that doesn't really change at all by knocking off 4 levels.
because level 56+ will still take longer to reach but honestly mostly just like...game feel reasons. After a certain point the "game feel" lands on "okay this is just annoying. I'm annoyed." because in the back of my mind I'm constantly thinking how I already had Dragonite or whatever.
Ultimately its not that big a deal, a very marginal change, which is why I'm not as aggressive about it compared to the others.
I'd like to agree in principle, but I think in practice the actual process of carrying over old Pokemon doesn't see this idea through as it is anyway.
A big part of the reason why BDSP was the first game I bought since BW2 was because of the impending 3DS/WiiU online services shutdown. I was most into the franchise during 4th gen and got burnt out during 5th gen, so BDSP presented basically the perfect opportunity for me to transfer over all of my old collection of trained critters that I cared about while it was still possible. For my purposes, a plain D/P re-release was pretty much exactly what I needed to pick up right where I left off.
But because the process of transferring things in and out of Home wipes the movesets, a good chunk of my old teams became effectively useless in the process. Some of them could be re-taught, but others had stuff like obscure tutor moves that don't exist anymore, and my Little Cup team was made entirely defunct. Not like Little Cup is really a thing anymore anyway, but the greater point is that in the majority of cases I'd have likely been better served by just training new Pokemon from the ground up anyway.
I guess cross-generation transfer is also useful for stuff like event legendary Pokemon, but it seems like TPC usually doesn't go too many years before re-releasing the rarer stuff in the roster so that new kids can stay up to date... especially in a post-Dexit world, where if a specific Pokemon is programmed into the latest game at all, you're probably safe to assume that it's not going to stay MIA from that game forever.
That's all to say that, despite the existence of cross-generation connectivity, the individual games are pretty self-contained mechanically, which I think should make the developers less resistant to more fundamental attribute tweaks of individual Pokemon.
"Invasive species"i agree and if i were in charge i would make a rock-type variation of aerial ace as a new TM just to disown that identity
anyway, little thing that annoys me: i miss the concept of the national pokédex in the sense that only a select amount mons are available in the main game but you can obtain more after the hall of fame.
however, the national mode moniker itself always felt kinda dumb because... you aren't leaving your region to catch them...? it's specially egregious in the original unova dex where they exist literally in the routes right next to cities you are visiting in the main game, but in sinnoh it's pretty silly too. i know it's just semantics, but surely there were better words available..
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
That's a more recent thing, though. I guess I was speaking more personally as I don't really play the newer games (I've transferred a bunch of Pokemon from the 3DS to Home, but that's more for collection/completion purposes) so the moveset wipe thing is less of a present issue for me. But in terms of III>IV>V>VI>VII connectivity, there's much more continuity+congruity in terms of mechanics.