Magneton Suspect Discussion Thread

[feen]

So after laddering like about 60 games and getting reqs, I have the following things to say about Magneton:

It's versatile, the scarf Magnet Pull set is a threat to Offense since it can outspeed all the non-scarfers and Volt switch out while causing a decent/huge damage. It can also trap steel mons to easy up cleaning for another mon. The more dangerous set, Specs Analytic has legit 3 switch ins: Lanturn, Stunfisk and Lickylicky, and even they get worn down. It is insanely strong and with the right prediction, it can nuke your team which later becomes easy to clean. Therefore the specs set is a threat to defensive teams. The Eviolite set has decent bulk, living a LO Ludicolo Hydro Pump in the rain meaning it's a threat to both offense, and balanced teams. Also, all these sets are viable so scouting for them can be really risky.

252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Magneton: 179-212 (74.2 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Furthermore, I think it's broken because how much it restricts teambuilding. I played about 60 games and saw a Lanturn/Stunfisk on over 50 games. That's how much it restricts teambuilding right now.

tl;dr Incredible power, versatility and centralizing. BAN

 

[Botas_Peligrosas]

First post..

Didn't quite get recs, ran out of time/couldn't do it/whatever, made it to about the 2380 range. I used a specs analytic magneton on a purely offensive team, and after about two days of laddering in my opinion Magneton is a very, very powerful mon but doesn't necessarily by itself deserve a ban. However, magneton in addition to other powerful offensive mons (such as LO sneasel or kabutops) puts extreme amounts of pressure on defensive teams and tears through them because of their speed, power and their coverage. That being said, good and viable counters and checks do exist as others have posted, such as lanturn, stunfisk and in my experience electivire, etc. What I did notice through laddering is a much more broken mon in Gallade, who realistically doesn't have much that beats it currently in the NU tier.

Magneton probably should be banned, due to the over centralization of teambuilding, but Gallade is at worst equally as broken, imo more broken than magneton. Just my opinion though, if someone has found some reliable, realistic, checks and or counters to the sword dance gallade set please correct my ignorance

 

[kay]

This suspect is for Magneton, having Gallade in the tier doesn't have anything to do with this suspect or should have influences in peoples votes. Even if Gallade is worse for NU then Mangeton is, that should have no bearings on if Magneton is or not. This suspect is here for the sake of identifying if Mangeton is healthy/ broken in NU. I see little reason why Gallades presence has anything to do with that.

(also Granbull says hello to SD Gallade, as well as Quagsire to non LO SD sets.)

 

[Botas_Peligrosas]

I completely agree with you, I was just pointing out my observations during my laddering experience is all. And in my experience, magneton is not all that terribly hard to keep under control with good team building and some scouting. Obviously, if your team is weak to electric or steel, magneton is going to seem broken.

I guess what I'm saying is, don't ban magneton because it is a powerful mon alone, when it is very possible and not that unrealistic to build teams that can keep it under control. Banning should be reserved for mons that are so broken, that little to no skill or strategy is required to rip teams apart with (serperior, pangoro or mega-lix, anyone?). Whether scarf, specs or eviolite variant of magneton, winning is not as simple as switching in and spamming volt switch.

 

[Shuckleking87]

This suspect is for Magneton, having Gallade in the tier doesn't have anything to do with this suspect or should have influences in peoples votes. Even if Gallade is worse for NU then Mangeton is, that should have no bearings on if Magneton is or not. This suspect is here for the sake of identifying if Mangeton is healthy/ broken in NU. I see little reason why Gallades presence has anything to do with that.

(also Granbull says hello to SD Gallade, as well as Quagsire to non LO SD sets.)

I mean he did mention what he thought about Magneton in the tier lol. And I think gallade can have an influence on the magneton test for sure, because it's a mon in nu. Just as if all of the sudden seismitoad and mega camerupt were both introduced into the tier mid suspect, that can have an influence on whether magneton is broken or not. If people think the influence of gallade made magneton not broken, then magneton isnt broken in their opinion (I dont think gallade made any difference just to put that out there). If people think both are broken, then vote for magneton to be banned first because that is what we are currently deciding.
Welcome to NU Botas-Peligrosas :)

 

[Rapture]

Haven't been keeping up with all of the epic posts/memes in this thread so might repeat some information, but with that being said Magneton is still just a little too good for the tier in my opinion. Not broken in the basic sense of the word but its influence is definitely felt as you can count the number of counters to it on one hand and even those get fucked if mag is packing the right coverage move. Albeit its movepool isn't the largest, it gets enough usable moves that you can usually only assume that it has dual stab, leaving its remaining moves, item, and ability a pain to scout for. Though some of Magneton’s less common sets and options are niche and somewhat matchup relient, like its choice scarf set or even the lordly substitute + charge beam set, they make our electric friend that much more effective against specific playstyles like offense and stall respectively. All in all, I feel banning Magneton is a good first step towards a more enjoyable meta.


tdlr: swagneton is a bulE pls ban.

 

[Tomahawk]

Ok so I am gonna vote ban in the end. While I am not sure if it's broken (barely), it punishes some playstyles unfairly. Forces the metagame to be too offensive. And is there opportunity cost for using it vs offense? Not really, you still get a KO pretty much every match and provides defensive utility against quite a lot of stuff because of its typing. To be honest, I've not seen a defensive team that isn't weak to some form of Magneton. It's possible to make one, but that makes you a lot worse than you should be against a lot of other threats. I mean, look at the supposed counters, they all fall to coverage moves in around 2 hits. Also, a counter that isn't immune to Electric isn't particularly good. Ferroseed is ok, but it's laughable when your Ferroseed switches in on a Magnet Pull Magneton.

Also, the 2 primary counters I've seen for Magneton are Lanturn and Stunfisk. To be honest this is really easy to abuse, several ways. First off, that is almost always the team's Flying-type check. I've used it with Fletchinder and it's really easy for Specs Magneton + SD Fletchinder to beat defensive inclined teams. Probably same for Swellow, Archeops etc.

To be honest I can understand if Magneton isn't banned, it's not extremely broken. With offense you can play around Magneton quite easily. If you aren't using offense however it's really hard. And it's really easy to abuse the fact that you have one of those dedicated Magneton switchins. I don't think it's fair to have a Pokémon in the tier that kinda warps the metagame to be offensive mostly by itself (not entirely, but a major problem). Hope I don't come af as too cocky or something btw, NU is not main expertise but I do get a slightly off impression from the tier right now and Magneton is a good part of that I believe.

 

[Water Drone]

I might as well lay out my thoughts while I still have the chance.

So, personally, I had 0 problems with magneton, and tbh, thats probably because I prepared for it a little too much. I used a pretty offensive team with Stunfisk amd Spd Vileplume, so I had an easy time with it. That being said, I really do not agree with some of the arguments I've seen. People say you have to run obscure things like Stunfisk or Lanturn, but, is that such a bad thing? What is so wrong with pokemon like these, if they beat one of the best pokemon in the tier, while filling up other roles, isnt that a good thing? People also tend to innovate with a pokemon such as Magneton in the tier. I used Spd Vileplume, something I have never seen before, and it almost always wins unless I get a spdef drop or miss sleep powder. Somebody else also ran scarf magnet pull Probopass, which I thought was pretty cool. Basically, Magneton is overcentralizing, but I think in a good way. It encourages creativity, which I think is awesome in a tier.

However, I do see some of the points of pro-ban side. Magneton punishes balance an insane amount, and puts massive amounts of pressure on almost every team archetype. Its powerful volt switches create momentum while putting huge dents into any pokemon not immune to electric. It definitely puts a strain on teambuilding, forcing you to use obscure pokemon, which may not fit some peoples idea of a good tier. Also while I do like variety, I didn't like how there was a Lanturn on at least every other team. fuck that.

All in all, I can see how you can vote either ban or do not ban, given it is not broken and is handled well with good teambuilding, but the amount of pressure it puts on some teams can definitely be seen as unhealty. I'm neutral for now, but I will decide on what to vote soon enough.

 

[Jim E. Russler]

People say you have to run obscure things like Stunfisk or Lanturn, but, is that such a bad thing? What is so wrong with pokemon like these, if they beat one of the best pokemon in the tier, while filling up other roles, isnt that a good thing?

I haven't seen anyone saying that Lanturn and Stunfisk are useless/obscure/niche outside of stopping Magneton. Lanturn has been an effective support/pivot mon for a while before we got Magneton, and Stunfisk's viability as a hazard setter has been increased with Seismitoad gone.

When people are taking issue with having to run one of those Pokemon, they're talking about constraints on teambuilding and centralization like in the second half of your post, so I guess it will depend on how much that matters to you personally.

Good luck figuring out what your vote will be. This one has definitely given people a lot to think about.

 

[honchkrow]

So in this thread we have talked a lot about Magnetons strength and its "counters" however I think people are forgetting how incredible it's typing is. Electric / Steel (plus decent natural bulk) allows it plenty of switch ins. Magneton gets free switch ins on psychic types, Mawile, flying types, grass types, poison types etc. On top of all these free switch ins, is where I'll bring in Magnetons amazing power. It shits on all play styles. If you choose to run something different than Stunfisk or Lanturn, like sp. def. Vileplume, I don't understand the argument that you handle Magneton. You either come in on a flash cannon and take 40% and then are forced to synthesis which loses you offensive momentum, or you take 20ish% from a volt switch (I'm assuming worst case scenario so analytic specs) and allow the Magneton user to pivot into a fire or psychic type for example which forces you out and prevents recovery. This mon is too much. It's the easiest BAN of my life.

 

[Punchshroom]

Just gonna pitch in some thoughts:

People say you have to run obscure things like Stunfisk or Lanturn, but, is that such a bad thing? What is so wrong with pokemon like these, if they beat one of the best pokemon in the tier, while filling up other roles, isnt that a good thing? People also tend to innovate with a pokemon such as Magneton in the tier. I used Spd Vileplume, something I have never seen before, and it almost always wins unless I get a spdef drop or miss sleep powder. Somebody else also ran scarf magnet pull Probopass, which I thought was pretty cool. Basically, Magneton is overcentralizing, but I think in a good way. It encourages creativity, which I think is awesome in a tier.

The only non-obscure Magneton counter is Lanturn (and Quagsire if no HP Grass); the likes of Stunfisk, Specially Defensive Torterra, and Specially Defensive Vileplume are all purely by-products of the Magneton meta, because these Pokemon really aren't very useful outside of responding to Magneton.

- Stunfisk is pretty mediocre outside of handling specially inclined Electric-types (and this would exclude Lanturn and Rotom-F) and some mono-Flying attackers (Fletchinder and bulky Scyther), as its resistances and offensive presence are too little to make up for the bothersome weaknesses that other Stealth Rockers such as Rhydon, Carracosta, and even Piloswine share.
- Specially Defensive Torterra doesn't really wall much mons that aren't Electric-type, and many have ways of getting around it (Wisp + Hex Rotom, Ice Beam Lanturn, Air Slash Rotom-S, Overheat Zebstrika). It pales in comparison to the other more effective sets Torterra can run.
- Specially Defensive Vileplume doesn't wall much outside...yeah you get the picture. Most special attackers in the tier can bypass SpD Plume easily, plus Plume's ability to combat physical attackers (most notably Fighting-types) and make use of Effect Spore would be directly compromised if it goes SpD over Def.

There's promoting creativity, and then there's stunting the meta by forcing people to use mediocre and lesser Pokemon / sets just to respond to it.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I'm honestly really torn on how to vote during this suspect. I came into the suspect believing that Magneton was too strong and centralizing for NU, and, in many ways, that preconceived opinion has been wholly validated. However, after playing more, reading through this thread, and just thinking about it in general, I think hollywood may be right in that people are just beating themselves in the teambuilder. If you wont to run a more slow balanced team, then of course Lanturn, Stunfisk, or Torterra may be your only viable options to keep a Specs Magneton from destroying your team. On the other side though, if you run a HO team, then this Magneton set may not pose problems at all as 70 Speed honestly isn't that fast. While it is extremely strong, it is slow, and doesn't have the same versatility that Mega Camerupt had. For now, I think my vote will be Do Not Ban, as I do not like to vote ban on something when I am not fully convinced if its worthy of being banned.

 

[Water Drone]

I haven't seen anyone saying that Lanturn and Stunfisk are useless/obscure/niche outside of stopping Magneton. Lanturn has been an effective support/pivot mon for a while before we got Magneton, and Stunfisk's viability as a hazard setter has been increased with Seismitoad gone.

Maybe you weren't looking hard enough? I'll post some for you. Wholeheartedly agree about Lanturn+Stunfisk.

About time, magneton polarizes the metagame in an unfavorable fashion with niche mons like stunfisk becoming popular just for acting as one of its hardest checks. These are just my preliminary thoughts however, we'll see if the ladder changes anything.

Didn't have to go farther than the second post to find one. Maybe their view has changed because it was their preliminary thoughts?

Just gonna pitch in some thoughts:

The only non-obscure Magneton counter is Lanturn (and Quagsire if no HP Grass); the likes of Stunfisk, Specially Defensive Torterra, and Specially Defensive Vileplume are all purely by-products of the Magneton meta, because these Pokemon really aren't very useful outside of responding to Magneton.

- Stunfisk is pretty mediocre outside of handling specially inclined Electric-types (and this would exclude Lanturn and Rotom-F) and some mono-Flying attackers (Fletchinder and bulky Scyther), as its resistances and offensive presence are too little to make up for the bothersome weaknesses that other Stealth Rockers such as Rhydon, Carracosta, and even Piloswine share.

- Specially Defensive Vileplume doesn't wall much outside...yeah you get the picture. Most special attackers in the tier can bypass SpD Plume easily, plus Plume's ability to combat physical attackers (most notably Fighting-types) and make use of Effect Spore would be directly compromised if it goes SpD over Def.

There's promoting creativity, and then there's stunting the meta by forcing people to use mediocre and lesser Pokemon / sets just to respond to it.

This was conveniently posted just a few hours after your post saying you've never seen anyone say this, Jim E. Russler.

To Punchshroom: Stunfisk may be a by-product of the Magneton meta, but it fits in very well. Like Jim E. Russler said, it's viability rose with Seismitoad leaving, and its typing and insane bulk allow it to almost always get rocks, and typically it can take out a frail pokemon, or at the very least leave something paralyzed with static

About vileplume. You're right about spd contradicting effect spore, but other than that I don't see what youre saying. It still walls a plethora of things. It still walls Gurdurr, now walls Cacturne, Lilligant, even wins vs other Vileplume. It now checks mixed samurott much better, tanking 2 Ice beams, and pretty much any other water type with ice coverage. Sure it can't get past something like a STAB Fire Blast, but you can't expect phys def to take a STAB Flare Blitz, can you? How can special attackers still get past it, I guess is what I'm asking.

Here's a great replay of Spd Vileplume in action: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nususpecttest-237132977

Not going to defend spd Torterra becaude I've personally never used it, and I don't like to theorymon.

First and foremost, people are running Stunfisk now. The only time I ever saw Stunfisk before the recent drops was in very, very low ladder when I was first starting a new alt or testing a team. The other two aforementioned checks, Lanturn and Torterra, are good mons in their own right, and worthy of consideration on most team archetypes without Magneton Volt Switching everywhere, but Stunfisk is just bad outside of checking Magneton (which it can't even reliably do because of Evio Magnet Rise) and resisting Flying which often runs coverage to beat it anyway (EQ Archeops, Facade from Swellow, and Scyther can just U-Turn out). Any mon that encourages the use of Stunfisk is, in my opinion, wholly unhealthy for the tier. For me, it's not that Magneton is downright broken as each is either slow enough to be taken out or not very powerful, it's just that Magneton restricts you so much in teambuilding that it can't be conducive to a healthy metagame.

Perfect example of what I was talking about. Somebody using this as their argument as to why Magneton should be banned. To this I'd say your only viable point is Magnet Rise Mag, but even then thats pretty rare. How can you say any flying type beats Stunfisk?

252 Atk Archeops Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Stunfisk: 202-238 (47.8 - 56.3%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
In return 0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Archeops: 204-242 (70.1 - 83.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
puts it in defeatist range so eq cant kill you next time, and stunfisk wins

252 Atk Guts Swellow Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Stunfisk: 225-265 (53.3 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
in return 0 SpA Stunfisk Discharge vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Swellow: 252-296 (96.5 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
swellow dies after either rocks or burn, stunfisk wins

Would scyther really want to risk a scalds chance of static to get this much damage: 252 Atk Scyther U-turn vs. 252 HP / 168+ Def Stunfisk: 90-106 (21.3 - 25.1%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery? Not to mention stunfisk gets free rocks on Scyther so if it uturns its taking 50 when it comes back in.

 

[Bouff]

lol i hate rehashing stuff but whateva

the most noticeable thing ive noticed about magneton is that it doesn't have a lot of reliable answers, although for the ones that can switch into it without caring, they do it extremely well (stunfisk and lanturn). the only problem with this is that they all get worn down fairly quickly, which is pretty apparent when you realize how popular garbodor and other hazard stackers are right now, and even then magneton has ways to get around them, albeit not quickly (eviolite tox hp ice, specs hp ice / grass come to mind), and it doesn't help that analytic turns magneton into a f*ckin nuke coupled with specs, although sturdy and magnet pull both have their own uses from what ive seen. it even has a great defensive typing + good natural bulk together as tennis mentioned which gives it a pretty good amount of switch-ins. i think it just puts too much strain on all playstyles though, seeing as how nearly every team is scrambling to prepare for it, which is why im banning it.

 

[skup]

magneton isnt really broken in the "conventional" sense because it has a small group of hard counters that are on nearly every team. but that's honestly the issue in and of itself. you more or less need one of mag's... 3 or so hard counters on every team that isnt fast offense, which basically leaves you with 5 slots in terms of teambuilding. we already have an incredible amount of threats to account for in team building like fightings (gallade, sawk), sneasel, tauros, offensive fires, water type sweepers, lilligant, all of the psychics, etc. while still making teams that can actually win against every playstyle. i dont think mag is busted because its unbeatable, but its preventing the meta from moving forward. ban from me.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Water Drone If you could read my latest post that is literally right above the one you just made, that would be great.

 

[Marikeinen]

First Thoughts:
Magneton is so fucking scary due to its raw power and ability to run choice specs for even more power or eviolite for bulk and the ability to switch up moves which only helps it take down its counters. Scarf is even viable to beat offense. Running stunfisk on every team is a little annoying especially because it is 2 hit or 3 hit ko'd by specs analytic hp grass/ground. I know there is prediction involved because the hp grass or ground is fairly obvious however i still feel Magneton is over centralizing.

As of now, VOTING BAN

Seconding this, also would like to point out that:

Magneton is so fucking scary

Voting BAN

 

[kwahelgae]

This suspect is for Magneton, having Gallade in the tier doesn't have anything to do with this suspect or should have influences in peoples votes. Even if Gallade is worse for NU then Mangeton is, that should have no bearings on if Magneton is or not. This suspect is here for the sake of identifying if Mangeton is healthy/ broken in NU. I see little reason why Gallades presence has anything to do with that.

(also Granbull says hello to SD Gallade, as well as Quagsire to non LO SD sets.)

Leaf Blade says hi.

 

[honchkrow]

I'm honestly really torn on how to vote during this suspect. I came into the suspect believing that Magneton was too strong and centralizing for NU, and, in many ways, that preconceived opinion has been wholly validated. However, after playing more, reading through this thread, and just thinking about it in general, I think hollywood may be right in that people are just beating themselves in the teambuilder. If you wont to run a more slow balanced team, then of course Lanturn, Stunfisk, or Torterra may be your only viable options to keep a Specs Magneton from destroying your team. On the other side though, if you run a HO team, then this Magneton set may not pose problems at all as 70 Speed honestly isn't that fast. While it is extremely strong, it is slow, and doesn't have the same versatility that Mega Camerupt had. For now, I think my vote will be Do Not Ban, as I do not like to vote ban on something when I am not fully convinced if its worthy of being banned.

I find it hard to believe that HO doesnt have problems with Magneton. Choice scarf Magneton is a common and viable set with the specific purpose of shitting on offense. Also as i mentioned earlier, its typing allows it switch ins and free kills. Against offense, Magneton can come in on Fletchinder, Scyther, Mawile, Psychics, Rhydon (ofc if predicting stone edge) just to name a few off the top of my head. Additionally, its bulk also allows it to take almost any hit against a HO team. For example, Magneton can live any hit from Kabutops (barring superpower i suppose but its not common), Sneasel fails to ohko it, Mesprit/Uxie generally cant touch it etc. This mon is easily broken and too good for NU.

 

[honchkrow]

Leaf Blade says hi.

Please dont use this as an argument. Leaf blade is completely shit on Gallade as dual stab is mandatory and assuming you're running SD, the only 4th viable move set options are knock off and stone edge. Also, assuming life orb, CC does enough to Quagsire to where running leaf blade is wasting a moveslot.

 

[Tomahawk]

lol i hate rehashing stuff but whateva

the most noticeable thing ive noticed about magneton is that it doesn't have a lot of reliable answers, although for the ones that can switch into it without caring, they do it extremely well (stunfisk and lanturn). the only problem with this is that they all get worn down fairly quickly, which is pretty apparent when you realize how popular garbodor and other hazard stackers are right now, and even then magneton has ways to get around them, albeit not quickly (eviolite tox hp ice, specs hp ice / grass come to mind), and it doesn't help that analytic turns magneton into a f*ckin nuke coupled with specs, although sturdy and magnet pull both have their own uses from what ive seen. it even has a great defensive typing + good natural bulk together as tennis mentioned which gives it a pretty good amount of switch-ins. i think it just puts too much strain on all playstyles though, seeing as how nearly every team is scrambling to prepare for it, which is why im banning it.

Thanks for this post, it was kinda hard for me to put into words exactly why I vote ban but this post describes it perfectly.

 

[ryan]

Magneton has been banned by 70.2% majority. Even if all of the rest of the votes are not to ban, Magneton will still be banned by a 57.3% majority. The voting thread will still be open until Thursday night for anybody else who has qualified and wants to cast their vote to get credited towards Tiering Contributor, but note that your vote will no longer affect the outcome.

Thanks to everyone who qualified and voted for this suspect test. We might revisit Magneton sometime in the future, but for now, it is banned from the tier.

Feel free to discuss the ban in the np thread!